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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: The "Fuck Jesus" Mentality [Re: Chakra Shock]
    #20575077 -

Chakra Shock said:
The original practitioners of the teachings passed on from Jesus by the Apostles
were known as Gnostics, from the latin word gnosis, meaning "to know", and they promoted introspection,
holding a feeling of knowing and connection to the divine within oneself,
interpretation of holy texts and improvisation,
with a constantly changing lineup for those who would give sermons,
meaning there was no hierarchy within their organization.



I wonder where you get all this pseudo historic fantasy.

All serious scholars of the period describe early Christianity as one of many Jewish apocalyptic sects rooted in the Jewish messianic literature of the second and first century BC.

Early Christians believed the world would end in their own lifetime, belief reflected in the Gospels (Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32).

Notable divergences from Judaism do not seem to appear before the end of the 1st century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_early_Christianity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian


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L'intérêt à croire une chose n'est pas une preuve de l'existence de cette chose.
Voltaire ; Remarques sur les pensées de Pascal (1728)

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Re: The "Fuck Jesus" Mentality [Re: easyskunkin]
    #20576228 -

if you're asking about my sources:

I got it from The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels, a renown Biblical scholar and translator.
None of it is pseudo historic fantasy, and btw, history is entirely up for interpretation,
especially based on the information that you've happen to come by.
I don't remember being alive back then... do you? No? Okay, so then all we can do is trust the information passed down to us, and make our interpretations based on that.

The Gnostics were a specific group of people who developed a unique religious practice
based on the teachings of the apostles. They had access to gospels that have been shunned from the official Bible, for instance the Gospel of Mary Magdalene.
The Gospel of Mary Magdalene was recently discovered in the sands of Egypt. People were murdered to try and keep them hidden, in order to make a profit off of them, but thankfully they ended up in the right hands. Carbon dating shows the scrolls date back to the time period when the other gospels were supposedly written. For all perceptible credentials, they are authentic.

The Gnostics, mind you, were not in any official church orders. Their way of practicing was antithetical to a hierarchical church structure, therefore the churches of the time perceived them as a threat to their authority and condemned them as heretics.

Edited by Chakra Shock (09/16/14 07:45 PM)

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Re: The "Fuck Jesus" Mentality [Re: Chakra Shock]
    #20576245 -

Just Jesus-loving hipsters.

Personally, I think Jesus should be worshiped... as the greatest con-man who ever lived.

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Re: The "Fuck Jesus" Mentality [Re: xFrockx] * 1
    #20576255 -



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:leaf:

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Re: The [Re: ChasingBliss]
    #20576281 -

how could you hate a man who could do that?! ^

oh and btw, Frock, you're just a jesus hating hipster :smug:

Edited by Chakra Shock (09/16/14 07:57 PM)

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Re: The "Fuck Jesus" Mentality [Re: Chakra Shock]
    #20576304 -

Chakra Shock said:
I didn't get my information from Wikipedia, if you're asking about my sources.

I got it from The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels, a renown Biblical scholar and translator.
None of it is pseudo historic fantasy, and btw, history is entirely up for interpretation,
especially based on the information that you've happen to come by.
I don't remember being alive back then... do you? No? Okay, so then all we can do is trust the information passed down to us, and make our interpretations based on that.

The Gnostics were a specific group of people who developed a unique religious practice
based on the teachings of the apostles. They had access to gospels that have been shunned from the official Bible, for instance the Gospel of Mary Magdalene.
The Gospel of Mary Magdalene was recently discovered in the sands of Egypt. People were murdered to try and keep them hidden, in order to make a profit off of them, but thankfully they ended up in the right hands. Carbon dating shows the scrolls date back to the time period when the other gospels were supposedly written. For all perceptible credentials, they are authentic.

The Gnostics, mind you, were not in any official church orders. Their way of practicing was antithetical to a hierarchical church structure, therefore the churches of the time perceived them as a threat to their authority and condemned them as heretics.


You wrote :

"The original practitioners of the teachings passed on from Jesus by the Apostles were known as Gnostics"

The Gnostic gospels were written between the 2nd and the 4th century. That they could represent an accurate historical account of the beliefs of the first Christians IS pseudo historic fantasy.


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L'intérêt à croire une chose n'est pas une preuve de l'existence de cette chose.
Voltaire ; Remarques sur les pensées de Pascal (1728)

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Re: The "Fuck Jesus" Mentality [Re: easyskunkin]
    #20576312 -

I don't dislike jesus. Just the peeps who shove him down my throat. I don't want jesus down my throat. NOT cool. No matter HOW you pronounce his name.


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"In nature, there are neither rewards nor punishments, there are consequences" - Robert Greene Ingersoll

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Re: The "Fuck Jesus" Mentality [Re: easyskunkin]
    #20576355 -

i'm pretty sure that all of the gospels were written centuries after the initial events they depict; they definitely weren't written by the apostles themselves.
What I garnered from Elaine Pagel's The Gnostic Gospels wasn't that these Gospels were written separately from the rest, but that they were purposefully separated in order to customize the church to the liking of those who lead it at the time.
The distinction between "The Gospels" and "The Gnostic Gospels" is not one of temporal significance, but rather one of which gospels have remained in the canon of the Bible and ones which were secluded due to the conflict between the "heretics", or gnostics, and the bishops of the early centuries C.E..

but my original statement should be amended from "The original christians" to "A specific group of original christians"

it's only relevant to OP because the gnostics were inclusive of both women and men, improvisation and inner knowledge, as opposed to the strict authority and patriarchy of the bishops. It just shows that not all who follow the ways depicted by Jesus turn into sex-fearing authoritarians.

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Re: The "Fuck Jesus" Mentality [Re: Chakra Shock]
    #20576562 -

Chakra Shock said:
I didn't get my information from Wikipedia, if you're asking about my sources.

I got it from The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels, a renown Biblical scholar and translator.
None of it is pseudo historic fantasy, and btw, history is entirely up for interpretation,
especially based on the information that you've happen to come by.
I don't remember being alive back then... do you? No? Okay, so then all we can do is trust the information passed down to us, and make our interpretations based on that.

The Gnostics were a specific group of people who developed a unique religious practice
based on the teachings of the apostles. They had access to gospels that have been shunned from the official Bible, for instance the Gospel of Mary Magdalene.
The Gospel of Mary Magdalene was recently discovered in the sands of Egypt. People were murdered to try and keep them hidden, in order to make a profit off of them, but thankfully they ended up in the right hands. Carbon dating shows the scrolls date back to the time period when the other gospels were supposedly written. For all perceptible credentials, they are authentic.

The Gnostics, mind you, were not in any official church orders. Their way of practicing was antithetical to a hierarchical church structure, therefore the churches of the time perceived them as a threat to their authority and condemned them as heretics.


Most Gnostic writings come from the 2nd century or later.  The one exception is the Gospel of Thomas, and while that one certainly had an influence on later Gnostics, it's not clear that it was itself written by an identifiable group known as Gnostics.  Gnostics need to be understood in the context of the way Christianity merged Greek and Jewish thought.  The early church in Jerusalem was most certainly identified as a Jewish sect.  Later people interpreted Christianity through the lens of Greek philosophy.  This is apparent in the opening lines of John's Gospel, where he says "In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."  The Logos was an idea with ancient roots in Greek philosophy, going back to Heraclitus.  The next line is often read as a direct attack on the Gnostics:  "And the Word became Flesh."  This is responding to the Gnostic heresy of docetism, which said that Jesus was never truly human, and only appeared to be.

While orthodox Christianity tried to maintain a balance between Greek and Jewish thought, the Gnostics abandoned all Jewish aspects.  While orthodoxy maintained that Christ had instituted a new covenant with the God of Israel that superseded the old one, Gnostics rejected the Old Testament God as a demon known as the demiurge -- a term Plato had coined in the Timaeus to describe the creator god.  They claimed that he was a false god and that a true God -- the one who sent Jesus -- lay beyond him and could be realized through the achievement of gnosis.

They developed a theology that saw the flesh and all earthly things as evil, and valued only the transcendent.  The world, according to them, was a prison, and Jesus came to teach us how to break out of it.  This denial of all worldly things, rooted in its opposition to the God of Abraham, formed the basis of their mysticism.

In Christian orthodoxy, by contrast, there was more subtle distinction about the world:  For orthodox Christians, the world was made by God and therefore good, yet it was also fallen and subject to the power of Satan.  The world in the sense of the sense of the physical reality rejected by the Gnostics is therefore seen as good.  However, the world in the sense of the temporal order instituted by humans was seen as corrupt and held under the power of the evil one.  Jesus came not to help us escape the world, but to defeat Satan's power over it.  Satan held the world hostage through sin and death, but Jesus' death on the cross served as a ransom to Satan.  Yet Hell could not maintain the light of Christ, and Satan was defeated through the resurrection.

Christian orthodoxy therefore maintained some of the temporal focus of the early Jewish Christians, while maintaining the mysticism and philosophical aspects of the Greeks.  Gnostics utterly rejected the former in favor of the latter.  Jewish Christians were the first Christians, and the orthodoxy that later developed a richer theology that incorporated Hellenistic thought.  Gnostics were the furthest removed from the earliest Christians, and rejected everything about them that connected them to the religious tradition from which Jesus came.  For these and other reasons, I prefer the orthodoxy that emerged, although there are later additions I'm not so comfortable with, such as Augustine's ideas about original sin or Anselm's substitutionary theory of atonement.


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Re: The "Fuck Jesus" Mentality [Re: Chakra Shock]
    #20576567 -

Chakra Shock said:
It just shows that not all who follow the ways depicted by Jesus turn into sex-fearing authoritarians.


To portray all Christians as "sex-fearing authoritarians" would be a faulty generalization.

But if there was a historical Jesus, he most probably wasn't a humanist by any contemporary standard. I believe the most progressive, liberal Christians today would be quite shocked to meet him in person.

But then again, nobody really knows what is real teachings were, since the historicist scholars only agree about two points : that he was baptized and died on a cross.


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L'intérêt à croire une chose n'est pas une preuve de l'existence de cette chose.
Voltaire ; Remarques sur les pensées de Pascal (1728)

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Re: The "Fuck Jesus" Mentality [Re: Silversoul]
    #20576619 -

They developed a theology that saw the flesh and all earthly things as evil, and valued only the transcendent.  The world, according to them, was a prison, and Jesus came to teach us how to break out of it.

Reminds me of the heresy of the Albigeois in XIIIth century Languedoc.


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L'intérêt à croire une chose n'est pas une preuve de l'existence de cette chose.
Voltaire ; Remarques sur les pensées de Pascal (1728)

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Re: The "Fuck Jesus" Mentality [Re: easyskunkin]
    #20577091 -

I'm holding onto the belief that Jesus was actually 2 different people. Jesus of Nazareth and Christ.


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"In nature, there are neither rewards nor punishments, there are consequences" - Robert Greene Ingersoll

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Re: The "Fuck Jesus" Mentality [Re: starsky7]
    #20577143 -

As in a multiple personality disorder ?


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L'intérêt à croire une chose n'est pas une preuve de l'existence de cette chose.
Voltaire ; Remarques sur les pensées de Pascal (1728)

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Re: The "Fuck Jesus" Mentality [Re: easyskunkin]
    #20577158 -

..... Sure! That sounds so much cooler/funnier than what I was getting at. So yeah!


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"In nature, there are neither rewards nor punishments, there are consequences" - Robert Greene Ingersoll

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Re: The "Fuck Jesus" Mentality [Re: starsky7]
    #20577195 -

I don't know, but let's see. What were you getting at ?


--------------------
L'intérêt à croire une chose n'est pas une preuve de l'existence de cette chose.
Voltaire ; Remarques sur les pensées de Pascal (1728)

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Re: The "Fuck Jesus" Mentality [Re: easyskunkin]
    #20577218 -

IDK, I heard something (I believe from a documentary) that expalined that the biblical Jesus was actually a collaboration of a couple different people.


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"In nature, there are neither rewards nor punishments, there are consequences" - Robert Greene Ingersoll

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Re: The "Fuck Jesus" Mentality [Re: starsky7]
    #20577297 -

Oh. Well the question of the historicity of Jesus is quite a debate.
Most scholars currently think there was a (single) historical Jesus, while others think there is insufficient evidence to make such an affirmation.

I have not heard about this collaboration of different people.


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L'intérêt à croire une chose n'est pas une preuve de l'existence de cette chose.
Voltaire ; Remarques sur les pensées de Pascal (1728)

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Re: The "Fuck Jesus" Mentality [Re: starsky7]
    #20577302 -

Anthropologist Marvin Harris suggested that Jesus was actually a political revolutionary and militant guerrilla who was elevated by his peers, as per Judaic legend, to messianic status.  Of course, this doesn't really explain the actual message of the gospels, but who knows?  Food for thought.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: The "Fuck Jesus" Mentality [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #20577322 -

All I know is that I won't have time for another church session in my life again. EVER.


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"In nature, there are neither rewards nor punishments, there are consequences" - Robert Greene Ingersoll

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Re: The "Fuck Jesus" Mentality [Re: Icelander]
    #20577332 -

Icelander said:
Fuck God/


:notsureif::ifyoucanawe:



--------------------
My Drawingzz
Draw DMT!

Trip Report: SHROOMS DMT---- My Youtube Psychedelic Channel

Edited by SleepyE (09/16/14 11:53 PM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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