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OfflineDigs
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Christianity
    #1697706 - 07/08/03 11:46 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

For some reason during a stone I starting thinking about how, if you slant Christianity, it kind of made sense.

Jesus (or quotes) attributed to him seem to be mostly right on....some seem enlightened.

It seems possible to me that he knew the truth.....and was just spreading the message, a feeling I'm sure we've all been inclined to indulge....at least in our minds at some point.

I'm by no means a Christian history buff, so I have no idea when in his life gaining that knowladge would have happened..../shrug

The Christian ideal that Jesus was the son of God, can still hold if you say he was A son of god.....knowing that god's an everpresent force around us, not an old guy with a beard :smile:

Just made me think that even the most distorted religions have some truth, kind of a good feeling :smile: 


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Invisiblechunder
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Re: Christianity [Re: Digs]
    #1697729 - 07/08/03 11:52 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

"Just made me think that even the most distorted religions have some truth"

Religions aren't distorted, people's perception of them is.


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christianity [Re: chunder]
    #1697753 - 07/09/03 12:02 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

By first starting off, let me state that I am a Christian. But this does not mean that I am perfect. I constantly make mistakes. Christianity is not one of many paths. It is the path. Christ did not just "spread a universal word," he actually died for our sins. Anybody can accept Christ, from a serial killer to a little kid. I do not have all of the answers to (I assume) to your many questions. But think of it this way: Most of the world's religions are a way for man to reach God, but Christianity is the only one where God reached man.
I am open to any questions, comments, or even people thinking about becoming a Christian.
P.S.- I know that this site is a "drug" site. I do not believe in using plants just to get "high." I believe that God created these plants to be used as medicine, and as teachers.


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OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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Invisiblechunder
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Re: Christianity [Re: Funguy]
    #1697790 - 07/09/03 12:13 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

What about the cultures that existed before Christianity came along?


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Christianity [Re: chunder]
    #1697865 - 07/09/03 12:37 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Most of the world's religions are a way for man to reach God, but Christianity is the only one where God reached man.

Yeah, but.. can you prove it?


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christianity [Re: chunder]
    #1697866 - 07/09/03 12:37 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

But of course, the Bible starts at the beginning of the world. I would assume that before Adam and Eve sinned, there was no "religion." They were perfect and had a direct relationship with God. After mankind's fall, other great people walked and talked with God. Christ's death was the fulfilment of Jewish scripture, which started at the beginning of time. Christianity appeared only about 2000 years ago. A great book to read, that can answer many more questions than I can, is called "The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell. He originally wrote it to disprove Christianity, but ended up becoming a Christian in the process. A great book! I am very tired, and will write some more tommorow. Good night!


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OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Christianity [Re: Funguy]
    #1697935 - 07/09/03 12:53 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I believe in cave men. In fact, I AM a cave man. My existence disproves your creation myth.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity [Re: Funguy]
    #1698034 - 07/09/03 01:24 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Allow me to recommend a book for you. It is one of the most important theological treatises I've read since graduating from seminary in 1978. It is 'Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes,' by [former] Archbishop John Shelby Spong. If you are still reading the Christian mythos as historical report, instead of as 'midrash' (an ancient Hebrew story-telling technique used to impart spiritual truths); and if you haven't realized yet that the New Testament was written with parallel stories, intended to re-tell the OT with new heros - indeed, to replace those heroes and prove that Y'shua was foretold by the Prophets...then you REALLY need to read THIS book by Spong. He is quite a scholar, and his work reconciles the disparity between faith and reason that (understandably) prevents moderns from embracing the Bible.

What I see in your brief reply is a literal and hence fundamentalist approach to Scriptures. As prevalent as this interpretation of Christianity SEEMS to be, I can say without hesitation that such a view is heretical. The recognized earliest and most genuine Christian writngs are some of the Pauline letters, and nowhere (for example) is there any mention of the 'resurrected Christ' as a re-animated, resusitated fleshy body. Paul's experience of the resurrected Christ was purely spiritual. The Gospels, which were written decades later by individuals with very specific agendas, were liturgical pieces meant to coincide with the Jewish calendar of religious holidays, and the miracle stories - including the physical resurrection - were intended to be midrashic. Just as there was no reporter at Bethlehem or Nazareth (depending upon separate and contradictory Gospel accounts), recording an astronomical/astrological anomaly. Midrash, not history.

It's not about disproving Christianity - it's about embracing 20 centuries of knowledge without fearing that one's faith will be destroyed by that knowledge. It's about knowing the difference between the historical, allegorical, symbolic and mystical levels of the Bible, and how to discern one from the other. It's about knowing the distinctively Jewish mind-set of the NT, and not adopting erroneous interpretations - mostly by Gentiles who knew little about ancient Judaism - even though those interpretations have become centuries-old traditions.

Most 'christians' are wrong about the Bible. Moreover, 'Real' Christians do not persecute, crusade, murder (as in 'holy' inquisitions, or witch burnings/drownings/hangings/crushings/etc.), or judge (which also means condemn non-Christians, or believe that God does not interface with non-Christians). Enlightenment cause people to become Christians - calling oneself a Christian has never Enlightened anyone.

Shalom. Salaam. Shanti. Pax. Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1698153 - 07/09/03 02:03 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

you never cease to amaze me with your knowledge markos... I even went so far as to search for all your posts and read alot of them, and everyone one I read is detailed and knowledgefull.. you have taught me alot in different things and I trust you know at least a little of what your talking about cause your 50 : )


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Offlinealakona
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Re: Christianity [Re: 2Experimental]
    #1698163 - 07/09/03 02:09 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

markos, you are a great guy with very good opnions and knowledge. other good "finding the truth books": Why I am Not a Christian, by Bertrand Russel (a great collection of essays and speeches) and Loosing faith in faith...


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making you want to be a better person since 2008.

TrippinTeddy said:
sometimes when I'm raping a bitch, I like to tickle her ribs and under neath her arms, and I say "loosen up bitch, lets have fun now because if I have to kill your squirming ass, only one of us will be having fun, and you can't have a party all by yourself can you?" Then its usually all laughs and good times from there.

leftysurprise said:
  ive been fucking praying for 2 years that she would just get over her phobia of jizz and take a load right down the gullet for me.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christianity [Re: Funguy]
    #1698164 - 07/09/03 02:09 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

"Fundamentalist Christianity - fascinating. These people actually believe that the the world is 12,000 years old. Swear to God. Based on what? I asked them.

"Well we looked at all the people in the Bible and we added 'em up all the way back to Adam and Eve, their ages: 12,000 years."

Well how fucking scientific, okay. I didn't know that you'd gone to so much trouble. That's good. You believe the world's 12,000 years old?

"That's right."

Okay, I got one word to ask you, a one word question, ready?

"Uh-huh."

Dinosaurs.

You know the world is 12,000 years old and dinosaurs existed, they existed in that time, you'd think it would have been mentioned in the fucking Bible at some point.

"And lo Jesus and the disciples walked to Nazareth. But the trail was blocked by a giant brontosaurus... with a splinter in his paw. And O the disciples did run a shriekin': 'What a big fucking lizard, Lord!' But Jesus was unafraid and he took the splinter from the brontosaurus's paw and the big lizard became his friend.

"And Jesus sent him to Scotland where he lived in a loch for O so many years inviting thousands of American tourists to bring their fat fucking families and their fat dollar bills.

"And oh Scotland did praise the Lord. Thank you Lord, thank you Lord. Thank you Lord."

--Bill Hicks


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Christianity [Re: Funguy]
    #1698796 - 07/09/03 05:57 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Most of the world's religions are a way for man to reach God, but Christianity is the only one where God reached man.




No, not the only one. Check out the religion called Hinduism or Santana Dharma. They have lots of stories about instances where God reached man. Krishna is the most well-known example. Such a human incarnation of God is called an "avatar" in sanskrit. That's why the little pictures we use to represent ourselves on forums such as this one are also called avatars.


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Christianity [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1698993 - 07/09/03 09:06 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

"Just made me think that even the most distorted religions have some truth"

Religions aren't distorted, people's perception of them is.


So it's not distorted for Muslims and Arabs and all those middle eastern people to be killing each other over 'Holy' land?
I'd like to believe you, but there's been more blood spilled over religon than ANY other (unnatural) cause throughout history. More people die from the hands of religious people than drunk drivers...


first starting off, let me state that I am a Christian. But this does not mean that I am perfect. I constantly make mistakes. Christianity is not one of many paths. It is the path. Christ did not just "spread a universal word," he actually died for our sins. Anybody can accept Christ, from a serial killer to a little kid. I do not have all of the answers to (I assume) to your many questions. But think of it this way: Most of the world's religions are a way for man to reach God, but Christianity is the only one where God reached man.
I am open to any questions, comments, or even people thinking about becoming a Christian.
P.S.- I know that this site is a "drug" site. I do not believe in using plants just to get "high." I believe that God created these plants to be used as medicine, and as teachers.






Are you a new age Christian, or a fundamentalist Christian? You're attitude leads me to believe you're new age, especially with your reference to plants as teachers. What are your thoughts on the theory that mushrooms are from outer space, possibly from other planets? They are the only 4-something (I can't remember what the word is) organism on the planet, indicating they are foreign. See http://fusionanomaly.net/panspermia.html for details.


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christianity [Re: nubious]
    #1698999 - 07/09/03 09:25 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Digs wrote -
"The Christian ideal that Jesus was the son of God, can still hold if you say he was A son of god.....knowing that god's an everpresent force around us, not an old guy with a beard"


Jesus was not just a man, He is fully God and fully man.

Colossians 1:16-17
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Hebrews 1:2
... whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.



Funguy wrote -
"It is the path. Christ did not just "spread a universal word," he actually died for our sins. Anybody can accept Christ, from a serial killer to a little kid."

Jesus died for His elect people, and them only. They were given to Him by the Father from before the foundation of the world. As a result of this, in time they are convicted by the Spirit of their sinnership, of His righteousness, and the mysteries of the gospel are made known to them.
They are not saved because they have faith, they have faith because they are saved. They obey because He works in them to do His will. Conversion is a supernatural event, not a mere decision.


chunder wrote -
What about the cultures that existed before Christianity came along?

Salvation can not happen without coming under the hearing of the Word and the application of the Word by the Holy Spirit to the heart of the listener. Since many cultures have existed without any Word ever being preached, we know it was not God's intention to save them.

Romans 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.



MarktheGnostic writes many heretical statements which are too numerous to rebuke in a reasonable space. However I will address the Gnostic heresy with the Word of God.

John 20:27-28
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Luke 24:39-40
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.



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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Christianity [Re: Digs]
    #1699011 - 07/09/03 09:31 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I grew up as a catholic, and in time I became aware of the fallacies of all organized religions.
Now lets not confuse the teachings of Jesus Christ with Christian religion and the bible and all the jiba jaba that came after.
Jesus was a man that came to tech us, like many others before him Buda, Krishna etc.
Jesus came to teach us about love and compassion, but no one wants to listen, it is easier to make him into a "God" and idolize some one.
Jesus does not save you, but he taught you how to save your self.
Just like other grate masters.



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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Christianity [Re: Funguy]
    #1699094 - 07/09/03 10:25 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Christianity is not one of many paths. It is the path.



This is typical religon conditioning, I know this cuz prist use to try to condition me the same way, we monkes allways like to belive that our way is better than other monkeys ways.

Quote:

Christ did not just "spread a universal word," he actually died for our sins.




He did because if you take the time to study any other grate master in the past the all teach the same lesson.
Jesus did not die for our sins that is a nice fairy tale, he was murdered because the establishment in that time did not want some one telling people how to reach god with out a priest or a preacher.
There were other teachers in the past that made the monkeys so uncomfortable about there monkey ness that the got killed for it.
Socrates, Pythagoras etc.

Quote:

Anybody can accept Christ, from a serial killer to a little kid.




Is not a matter of accepting Christ that means nothing, The Christ is a state of transcendence of being it has been call Buddha also.
You become the Christ or Buddha, that does not mean you become Jesus or Sidarthta.

Quote:

But think of it this way: Most of the world's religions are a way for man to reach God, but Christianity is the only one where God reached man.




I am sorry to ask you but were did you get this from your preacher or priest?
Again this is typical monkey territorial arrogance behavior.
Explain me thru the teachings of Jesus how do you come to this conclusion?

At a younger age when I realize that most of the bible was jiba jaba, and made up stories most of the taken from other cultures, like the story of Moses floating on the river etc.
I became very dissolution and did not want to know anything about Christianity until I had the experience of the mushroom.
Then I so that what Jesus was trying to teach had nothing to do with religion Dogma as a matter of fact he was trying to get people way from it, but we monkeys have a way of distorting everything and we are experts in turning a good thing into a bad one.




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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity [Re: fivepointer]
    #1699121 - 07/09/03 10:47 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Your quotations DO NOT refer to the Gospel accounts of a resusitated corpus (except the one aimed at Thomas - but the Gospel of Thomas reveals no 'theology of the cross,' or a resusitated corpus). Your quotations are a response to the heresy of Docetism - which held that Jesus of Nazareth was not a fully human, fleshy being, but a heavenly being with an 'apparent' or 'phantom' body. Docetism is still held by some heretical Christians, and by Muslims who deny that a Prophet of God would ever be 'hung upon a tree,' or experience a shameful death. Jesus is held to be a prophet in Islam. One interpretation is that Simon the Cyrene was crucified in His place ("A certain man from Cyrene, Simon, the father of Rufus, was passing by on his way in from the country, and they forced him to carry the cross." Mark 15:22, NIV).

People like yourself require an extraction from the Matrix of religiosity in which you have been steeped. John Shelby Spong's writings may be as important a corrective to Christianity as Martin Luther's was. You need to understand what midrash is before you start judging my understanding. It is nice and simple to take words - even 'the 'Word' - at face value. But that simplicity doesn't mean 'without guile,' it means being a simpleton. Ancient Hebrews understood the highlighting of writings with miraculous intentions, but moderns like yourself do not. Do you not wonder why pillars of smoke and fire, or eye-covered wheels-within-wheels, or transfigured Biblical-Heroes-of-Light have not been 'seen' since the Scriptures were penned? Because these events were penned - not eye-witnessed historical events. My faith is no less for it. If you want to believe that high-salt content geological formations near the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are evidence of people who looked at the Wrath of God and were turned into pillars of salt - that is your choice.

It is not your place to call me or anyone a heretic just because your faith is not a living, growing faith but the mere adoption of dogmas. People who point a finger like you are, when given power and opportunity, are the ones who create persecutions, inquisitions, and the rest of the horrors that so-called 'christians' have visited on humankind. Until the Roman Catholic Church Fathers decided upon doctrines to further their cause - their power over the illiterate masses - their organized black-hooded sadists in charge of the 'Holy Inquisition,' there were many theological positions. You go study Clement of Alexandria, Origin, Tertullian (who invented the word 'Trinity') and you will find that their own contemporaries turned on them, called them heretics, and condemned them to death! These are some of the men who created the dogmas that you are brainwashed by. Don't question tradition - too difficult. But, if you ever choose to become a Christian FOR REAL - then learn humility, and get off of that ego-inflated, pathologically self-righteous trip you're on, and let God Almighty do the judging. After all, it's His prerogative - not yours.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity [Re: 2Experimental]
    #1699132 - 07/09/03 10:51 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Thank you for your kind words 2Experimental, but you flatter me. I may just be a frustrated writer with good sources.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity [Re: silversoul7]
    #1699153 - 07/09/03 11:08 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Actually, it is the Hebrew calendar of 5700+ years that supposedly dates back to the creation. Fundamentalists, who are NO fun at all, usually picture a Cecil B. DeMille 'The Bible' movie image of a perfectly formed male in a swirl of dust. This is the language of mythos, not scientific language. We are in a position today to understand scientifically AS WELL AS mythologically. The ancients didn't have a choice - myth was their only (intuitive) means for understanding, and wrote accordingly. Fundamentalists are fundamentally ignorant about this difference. The Biblical "Fiat Lux!" ("Let There Be Light!") can be seen scientifically as 'The Big Bang,' for example. Myth talks about the 'Why,' science talks about the 'How.'

In seminary, I met a couple of people who believed that God created fossils, as fossils - to test the faith of men against empirical evidence. This would truly be a demonic deity - a demiurge, as the gnostics called Him. One Fundamentalist insisted that the sun may only seem to be larger than the Earth, because Revelations says that the stars will fall at the end of time. We know that the Earth is not the center of the cosmos (post-Ptolemy, post-Copernicus, modern astrophysics) and that the Greek root 'aster' or star may mean getting pelted by asteroids, but this is very clearly a shared delusion. It is mental illness disguised once more as religious fundamentalism. Irrationality over rationality becomes a sick proof that one's faith in Scriptural infallibility is more accurate than senses and reason, and that this kind of faith means transcending the five senses and reason. In reality it is mass-psychosis.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity [Re: alakona]
    #1699156 - 07/09/03 11:11 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks alakona. I've had Russel's book on my shelf for years, but have never read it. I have found it edifying to read why intelligent and warm-hearted people HAVE become Christians.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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