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Anonymous

Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #777903 - 07/26/02 07:05 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Sorry, when I encounter arrogant statements such as this, "To the unbeliever, there is no atonement. Therefore he/she dies in his/her sins with no truthful hope for a future," it begs an appropriate response.

Basically, from what I gather from your post is that Christianity then boils down to the selfish desire to save your own life (or in your parlance, soul). The primary motivation, regardless of the talk and preaching of selfless love, is essentially based on the primal urge for survival of the self. This makes perfect sense as a motivation, but doesn't explain the dogma.



What you deign appropriate others do not.
There seems to be a lot of that going around.

And your point is?

I am afraid you are conflating the subjectivity of the matter.
How so?

Because what you think is an appropriate response is not an appropriate response in the minds of others. This turns upon the how a person views enter's statement. You see it in your own subjective way with the filters or frame of reference that you have. Therefore, others, who have a different set of filters or frames of reference might not consider your comment appropriate or even necessary.

You are correct when you say that some "believers" are inappropriately motivated.
I never said their motivation was inappropriate, I stated "This makes perfect sense as a motivation"

You are good at playing hyper or ultraliteral. Thanks for clearing that up. I don't have the intelligence or the reading comprehension to understand what you wrote. I don't have to explain my sentence to you. You're bright, figure it out.

But that has little to do with the verity of the truths of sacred texts.
Exactly (" but doesn't explain the dogma").

Correct.

A little ignoratio elenchi, wouldn't you say?
No I wouldn't, I speak English.

Really, you don't understand a simple Latin phrase for "missing the point"? I am sorry to hear of your handicap.

Cheers,



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OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
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Posts: 7,396
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 1 month, 12 days
Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: World Spirit]
    #777965 - 07/26/02 07:39 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

"and I do believe so, all of us must respond to that Truth."
Truth is not relative to individuals, beliefs are.

"It's about Truth, not survival, although it is also very obvious that a wise man will humble himself to avoid hell at all cost. It makes perfect sense to someone who believes in it."

That and all the Christ post mortem ideas/fantasies/rules/dogmas/wars man made in his name. I believe he was a brilliant philosopher, the original message was pure and meaningful but the religious intitutions worked that message to suit their needs, a true example of mind control and seek of power.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #777989 - 07/26/02 07:47 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

You know Mr. Mushrooms... sometimes I wonder about you.

Do you ever think to yourself "fuck dialectic"?

Hell, I say fuck the rules all the time. I consciously throw 'em right out the proverbial window. But you...
Hey, who cares, right?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Posts: 4,805
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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: MAIA]
    #777993 - 07/26/02 07:48 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

That and all the Christ post mortem ideas/fantasies/rules/dogmas/wars man made in his name. I believe he was a brilliant philosopher, the original message was pure and meaningful but the religious intitutions worked that message to suit their needs, a true example of mind control and seek of power.



--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
Not here
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Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: World Spirit]
    #778009 - 07/26/02 07:57 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Q: How many more decades do you think you can keep living and still believe there is no God keeping all this going?

A: I can probably keep this body living for five to six more decades. Beyond the life of this particular body, I have no idea. Forever? I don't know yet and I won't pretend I do.

Why must it be a God that keeps "all this" going? The inherent properties of matter keep all this going. I don't know how it could possibly NOT keep going.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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Anonymous

Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #778010 - 07/26/02 07:59 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Because what you think is an appropriate response is not an appropriate response in the minds of others. This turns upon the how a person views enter's statement. You see it in your own subjective way with the filters or frame of reference that you have. Therefore, others, who have a different set of filters or frames of reference might not consider your comment appropriate or even necessary.
This happens with all of us, including you. Oftentimes I encounter cases of 'the pot calling the kettle black." Why are my responses not approrpriate but those of supposed Christians or youself are not subject to the same standard? (If they are, forgive me for assuming otherwise.)


You are good at playing hyper or ultraliteral. Thanks for clearing that up. I don't have the intelligence or the reading comprehension to understand what you wrote.
It's not play, I tend to state things the way I want them read. There usually isn't any need to read into them. Don't be so hard on yourself, just read the words as they're written.


Really, you don't understand a simple Latin phrase for "missing the point"? I am sorry to hear of your handicap.
This ties in nicely with your first statements which I highlighted. Not understanding Latin has never been a handicap. However, choosing uncommonly used foreign words to express an idea is a handicap to communication. (Frame of reference - English language website, Latin is not a language of common communication in any country that I'm aware of)


Cheers



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OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #778012 - 07/26/02 08:00 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Christianity then boils down to the selfish desire to save your own life (or in your parlance, soul). The primary motivation, regardless of the talk and preaching of selfless love, is essentially based on the primal urge for survival of the self. This makes perfect sense as a motivation, but doesn't explain the dogma.

The same "motivation" to save souls killed millions of native americans, enslaved some more africans, chased Jews and burned their fellow "brothers". I will really have fear of hell if i believe in that "motivation", if there's something like heaven it must be already full of your "saved" souls.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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Offlinemandlebrot
Stranger
Registered: 07/24/02
Posts: 5
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: World Spirit]
    #778068 - 07/26/02 08:18 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

It makes perfect sense to someone who believes in it.

the same could be said for all delusions.


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Anonymous

Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Sclorch]
    #778098 - 07/26/02 08:30 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Sclorch, sometimes I wonder about myself too. It's called introspection.

Do you ever think to yourself "fuck dialectic"?

What, and give up tendencious polemic? What fun would that be?

I like to keep my proverbial ducks in a row when I am having a dialogue about important philosophical assumptions.

But thanks for wondering. Ya know, wondering is probably the best thing. It means that one does not know about a given thing.

I try not to be abstruse or obtuse but sometimes I am. I am only human. I hope that I am not as enigmatic to some as Swami is.

Cheers,


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #778118 - 07/26/02 08:37 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.


So, let me make sure I have this right.........



--------------------
Namaste.


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
Not here
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #778122 - 07/26/02 08:38 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Really, you don't understand a simple Latin phrase for "missing the point"? I am sorry to hear of your handicap.

"This ties in nicely with your first statements which I highlighted. Not understanding Latin has never been a handicap. However, choosing uncommonly used foreign words to express an idea is a handicap to communication. (Frame of reference - English language website, Latin is not a language of common communication in any country that I'm aware of)"

I don't know that particular Latin phrase either and I don't think I have a handicap.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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Anonymous

Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #778168 - 07/26/02 08:59 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

I find it hard to communicate with you. It seems as if your perceptual filter is clogged or something. You seem to misunderstand what I am saying at every turn. Now, normally, I would not expect a person to understand a few of the things I write but you are intelligent, or so I perceive, which makes you as enigmatic as others might perceive me to be. That being the case any continued dialogue between us is apt to be a lesson in frustration. I will attempt one more time to clarify the matter and then let it go.

Here goes:

Because what you think is an appropriate response is not an appropriate response in the minds of others. This turns upon the how a person views enter's statement. You see it in your own subjective way with the filters or frame of reference that you have. Therefore, others, who have a different set of filters or frames of reference might not consider your comment appropriate or even necessary.

This happens with all of us, including you. Oftentimes I encounter cases of 'the pot calling the kettle black." Why are my responses not approrpriate but those of supposed Christians or youself are not subject to the same standard? (If they are, forgive me for assuming otherwise.)

My point is that you find your comment appropriate and others do not. I did not say that others comments were appropriate and your weren't. If you are as literal as you seem to be at times this could not have possbily escaped you. I, for one, would not use the reason, "My comments were appropriate" when discussing such a matter because that is only my opinion, nothing more and nothing less.

You are good at playing hyper or ultraliteral. Thanks for clearing that up. I don't have the intelligence or the reading comprehension to understand what you wrote.

It's not play, I tend to state things the way I want them read. There usually isn't any need to read into them. Don't be so hard on yourself, just read the words as they're written.

Do you tend to understand things the way you want them to be also? My meaning was clear. I was implying that since Christians, by their own tenets, are supposed to be selfless, according to the Bible, then any person claiming to be a Christian because they are selfishly motivated, or are in fact selfishly motivated because they are afraid of judgement, is hypocritical. And that if the Bible is true then a person should not be selfishly motivated but should love God for Himself and not for a reward or as escape from hell. The Ancient Hebrews did not believe in an afterlife. They followed God because they loved Him, not because of what He would do for them. To further clarify this, I am not saying that all Ancient Hebrews did this but that some of them did.

Really, you don't understand a simple Latin phrase for "missing the point"? I am sorry to hear of your handicap.

This ties in nicely with your first statements which I highlighted. Not understanding Latin has never been a handicap. However, choosing uncommonly used foreign words to express an idea is a handicap to communication. (Frame of reference - English language website, Latin is not a language of common communication in any country that I'm aware of)

If a person is involved in a logical argument and they do not understand a few phrases in Latin it is indeed a handicap. Have you ever heard of the phrase, "ad hominem"? If I were presented with a phrase from an intelligent person in a philosophical or religious discussion I would look it up and increase the knowledge that I have. You chose not to do that.

Most of what you say has a lot of subjectivity in it, and no, this is not the case for everyone. You may not be able to understand that but it would take far to much time to explain it any further.

You are hyperliteral in the one moment and then able to perceive subtle differences in meaning in the next. This is confusing and does further obfucate the issue. If that is what you are attempting you have done well.

Cheers,



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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #778252 - 07/26/02 09:51 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Again I wonder.

As apt as you are at dissection, kind sir, would you tell me why one side recieves more attention than the other? (you're smart, don't make me restate item-by-item, plus you figured this post was directed at you)

I just thought dialecticians were inherently unbiased.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Sclorch]
    #778311 - 07/26/02 10:21 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

The reason I place my emphasis on the side that I do has to do with my own inherent bias. I could just as easily emphasize the other side but chose not to because I get a little edgy when the "true believers" in science reveal their ignorance of philosophical inquiry by bashing Christians just because they are easy to bash. Or so they think.

It is the perceived hubris of the scientific community that rubs me a little raw I guess. Most Christians are complete buffoons but I do not spend the necessary energy trying to disabuse them of their false notions. I do not take pride in exposing fools or jousting with lesser minds. I am not interested in such a banal sport. For me, it is more interesting to dialogue with peers, of which you, Swami, and Evolving seem to be. Of course that is just my subjective opinion of you.

All I know is this; I know a lot about a lot of things but I know very little for certain. As long as the facts keep coming in I shall have to revise what I think and as long as that is the case I will remain a true skeptic. A true skeptic is skeptical about all things including the scientific method.

There is something on my mind though and perhaps I should start a new thread about it.

What exactly is the difference between metaphysical naturalism and methodolgical naturalism?

It seems to me that there really isn't any difference at all and the attempt to show there is is only a ruse for the weak-minded to conceive.

Cheers,


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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Registered: 07/18/02
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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Sclorch]
    #778318 - 07/26/02 10:26 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

wow, popular thread. i left this morning to go trip k with friends, come back and there's ten billions replies.
i think i have a thing for evolving. but not to be judgemental or anything. and it's not an insult, so don't take it so my braa...he who is estranged seeks pretexts to break out against all sound judgment.
and this is for the rest of you who are so intent on getting YOUR opinion out first and foremost. ...a fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion. take it as you may. not meant to insult my braa's. before destruction, a man's heart is haughty, but humility goes before honor. if one gives answers before he hears my brothers, it is to his shame. he who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love this, will eat it's fruits. see, to me, a man is better off if he walks with integrity, then a man who is perverse in speech, and is a fool.
when a man's mistakes bring his downfall, his heart rages against God. peace braa's


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #778336 - 07/26/02 10:39 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

...a fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.

Amen dude! Nice post. I think I might have spotted 1 or 2 around here somewhere...


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: buttonion]
    #778372 - 07/26/02 11:05 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

has anybody but me noticed how swami will start a topic, then shutup for a long time. swami is intelligent. i know this from his posts...so i think he's just sitting back laughing at what he started. kinda funny.

yeah, but buttonion, we must remember to call no one a fool. that is for them to decide in themselves. i just stated truths about how fools act. who am i to say any body is a fool? except me of course. and yes. i am so foolish sometimes i hate myself. but i get over it. everybody has their shining moments.
did somebody say earlier that christianity is selfish because we just want to be saved and do what we want? or something like that.
i beg to differ my brother. if i could be held responsible for all the human race and take their sins on my back and be punished for them so that none would be lost (in my religion, there will be lost souls, i know some of you don't believe in that, so you don't have to go off on it.) then i would gladly do that and remain in purgatory for ten million times as long as anyone else. i cring at the thought, but many many times i wish i could. some christians love others more than themselves and cry every time they feel that someone hates God. because to the christian, this means they will be lost (maybe not to you does it mean this) and thinking of the pain of being seperated from ones very essence of happiness....forever....i wouldn't wish that on anyone. even hitler. yeah he needs some serious purging before he stands before the king. but....i love to love and hate all hate. and i wish no pain on anyone. grab a piece of peace my braa's and hold on to it. for we all need all we can get.


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #778429 - 07/26/02 11:38 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Instead of joking about the illusions and delusions that go by the name of Christian, why not get down to the Brilliant Singularity that radiates the Truth of the matter?

Good question. Because neither myself nor anyone I know (apparently) has discovered the Brilliant Singularity - they just proclaim to. I used to believe it possible, but having no contemporary role models nor having not had even a glimmer after all my years of study and desire to believe/attain, it seems to be just another fable.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinewhiterastahippie
lover

Registered: 07/18/02
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Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #778437 - 07/26/02 11:41 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

ah! now we here from the enigmatic swami.


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #778452 - 07/26/02 11:51 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Swami, I really expected so much more from you.
Sorry, I really am just a shallow instigator. Hey 36 replies in a few hours is nearly a record!

Your caricature of the Christian is known as "poisoning the well". If you are trying to show evidence that some "believers" are not devout, why bother? If you are trying to show there is no difference between some "believers" and some atheists, again, why bother?
I would expect some small difference to show up in the population at large, but see none.

If I took a random group of joggers vs. non-joggers, I can guarantee that the jogging group (even including those that were undisciplined in their training) would have better health and be lower in weight as a group because the METHODOLOGY WORKS! The Christian method as it is generally preached seems to be TOTALLY INEFFECTIVE in any measurable outward sense.

What is the point you were trying to make? Without directly stating your reason or the conclusions you draw from your biased dialogue we are left with little to go on.
Actually I thought I made my point. Studying the Bible and following sacraments and going to church, does not lead one closer to God else there would be some sort of empirical (read: behaviorial) evidence. There is none. The Believers don't even Believe what they are trying to get others to Believe.

In the Bible, Jesus says you will know them (Christians) by their actions. Well, I can't tell the difference. Am I too dense to see it or is there no difference?

Of course this always gives you the hiding place of ultraliteralism if one should choose to take your bait and give some meaning to your post. You can always tell us what you didn't say.
It is very important to leave the back door open...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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