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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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To the Christians; From Enter
    #1703013 - 07/10/03 04:46 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1703038 - 07/10/03 04:51 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

What gives him the power to save me? From what? I say that the only one that has the power to save is Maynard Keenan from Tool. You know how you can know it is true, his message is the Truth? Because I tell you that it is. "I tell you this, and it is true".
Ask anyone that I hang out with. Maynard = God. When talking about him, I frequently refer to him as God. Have you ever heard his gospel? Listen to Lateralus. You know it is true, because I tell you.
(detecting traces of ironic sarcasm. i do, however, refer to Maynard as God, and what he has to say, but I think it is obvious what I am saying here)
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1703062 - 07/10/03 04:59 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Edited by Enter (07/10/03 05:00 PM)


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1703068 - 07/10/03 05:00 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

fireworks: "the only one that has the power to save is Maynard Keenan from Tool."

no, the only person that has the power to save is Thom Yorke, everyone knows that.

Mr. Lif: "pick your saviour nigga, jesus michael or joseph"


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1703072 - 07/10/03 05:02 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Please allow them the opportunity to work out whatever it is God gives them to work out.





Can you provide more details?


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: pattern]
    #1703087 - 07/10/03 05:06 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: pattern]
    #1703126 - 07/10/03 05:15 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Um, who decides who message has a point? I say the message you are telling me is right doesn't have a point. It's nice to believe in something, whatever that might be. But to impose that belief on other people, I don't know. It's one thing to explain ones beliefs for other people to read and find their own meaning in what is said. It is another thing to argue that your belief is the correct one, without even explaining the belief or even why you believe it, and then "convince" everyone that it must be true because you say that it is true.

And, since you brought it up, Tool has a lot of melodies. Maynard is one of the most melodic singers in the metal world today. Tool's music is very talented, sounds great, and has a real message that gives it purpose. Now, I can't vouch for Roger Waters, and John Lennon died before ever having the chance to hear Tool, but I know no other than Alex Lifeson, the guitarist for Rush (come on now, everyone knows Rush. similar to Pink Floyd, never made it quite that big, but nevertheless), has spoken volumes of good about Tool (Rush and PInk Floyd being one of Tool's big influences). Its funny how Tool is so often described as our time's Pink Floyd. Call Roger Waters up, and ask him his opinion on Tool. Instead of just assuming that he doesn't like it. Assumptions are of the Devil!!!
Oh, by the way, who the FUCK are you to say whether not Maynard is condemned?! What's up now? hehe
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineZahid
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1703374 - 07/10/03 06:36 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Salvation is eternal life - the unsaved do not get eternal life, they do not even exist after they die physically. No biggy for them, because that is what they have believed all their lives. I believe in the Living God, Ultimate reality. Salvation is to learn to appreciate God on your own. He is there for anyone, and the extent of His mercy can bring a grown man to tears. "You come to Me walking, I will come to you running"


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1703402 - 07/10/03 06:46 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

If you see a blind man walking toward a cliff, would you tell him it is there? I'm not forcing my beliefs on anybody, Christ did not do that either. It is YOUR decision on whether or not to accept Christ or not. How many of you have wondered whether or not there is something more in life? Deep down, how many of you have a void in your heart, one that cannot be filled with anything. Only one thing can fill that hole, Jesus. Many people say that Jesus was a good man, or a good prophet. But Jesus was either the Messiah or was totally false! Lets look at it this way:

There can only be two alternatives to Jesus.
1. His claims were false
A) He KNEW his claims were false
He was a LIAR
He was a HYPOCRITE
He was a FOOL, because he died for something he knew was false.
B) He did not know his claims were false
He was a Lunatic

2. His claims were true
A)He is the Lord, and the Messiah for ALL people
You can accept him, or you can reject him

Don't forget, the man who wrote the book this excerpt is from, Josh McDowell, originally planned to dissprove Christianity. In the process of trying to do so, he became a Christian. I am pleading to all who read this, please think about what I am saying. I truly care for you, and so does God. If anyone is truly sincere about becoming a Christian, please PM me and I will send you a FREE copy of "The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell.


--------------------

OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1703425 - 07/10/03 06:52 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

God has extended an open invitation to us all. Let him with ears hear.

If you feel condemned it is your own doing.


I feel neither condemned, nor do I hear the voice of God (though I have tried to listen and continue to do so).

Am I without ears?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: trendal]
    #1703443 - 07/10/03 06:58 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Am I without ears?

No, perhaps you are just looking in the wrong places. How do you currently view Christianity/insert Abrahamic faith? Do you believe in God?

A friend of mine, a devout atheist said in a moment of near humility: "I just can't see it. No matter how much will power I use, I just cannot believe there is a God."

People who look for God will find Him, if you don't; you're not even looking.


--------------------


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Zahid]
    #1703452 - 07/10/03 07:01 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I believe in something...though I am not sure what.

I was raised Catholic, and went to a Catholic school until I was 18. I have since given up on formal Religion, as it did not seem to hold the answers I was looking for.

I am looking, in my own way. My biggest question is if He hears me or not. As of yet he has not given me a response. I imagine he would give me one that I would understand. He should know better than any what I will understand, shouldn't he?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: trendal]
    #1703464 - 07/10/03 07:05 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Even though I may agree with Enter, I believe he is using the wrong language in trying to persuade people into listening with open hearts. In trying to open someone's eyes, do you yank them open, causing great pain, or lovingly and gently open them. The world today has a false sense of what Christianity is. A true Christian would be much like a Buddhist, having an inner peace. That peace is not from meditating, but from having a RELATIONSHIP with Christ.

"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:6-8


--------------------

OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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OfflineGrav
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1703481 - 07/10/03 07:11 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

LOL

"Tool lacks melody." 

Good one, Enter :wink:

Sorry that this is off-topic but that was too funny, I had to.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Grav]
    #1703510 - 07/10/03 07:18 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I believe in god.

And I don't think christianity has anything more to do with god than a quiet walk in the woods.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Grav]
    #1703524 - 07/10/03 07:22 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Actually I don't even like to call it 'god'.  It's too misleading and cultish sounding.  Too many negative conatations that go with it.

I believe in the source :smile:

If there was really a Jesus Christ than I believe in that beautiful spark he felt in his brain before he tried to spread any message.


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1703547 - 07/10/03 07:30 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enter said:
Tool and A Perfect Circle lack melody first and foremost. They would be laughed at privately by the likes of real musicians like John Lennon and Roger Waters, as if they would even listen to a band like Tool.





I am a very good musician, and Tool is nothing to laugh at. Their drummer could play rings around Ringo Star. Their guitarist is excellent at creating rhythmic atmosphere. There is melody there, it's just distorted.  :cool:

Quote:

Enter said:
I fear the days of proclamation are well over. The fields are not white and ready for harvest. There is even now a drought concerning the Word of God, even amongst ourselves. You can hear it in Christian music. You can see it in the preachers eyes.

Let God do His thing.
Let mankind sow and reap what he will. 




I reap what I sow and let me tell you, I have great crops which shows me that divinity is within all of us.  :rasta: I agree 100% with you, let people reap what they sow and they'll get as far they need. I don't need a savoir when I am who I need to be.

Oh, Gabriel, let me blow your horn. Let me blow your horn
Oh, I never did, did no harm.

Oh, Lord, deliver me
All the wrong I've done
You can deliver me, Lord
I only wanted to have some fun. 


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Funguy]
    #1703552 - 07/10/03 07:32 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"Know ye not that ye are gods?"
Christ knew of our true nature and told us to achieve it("I have come to set you free")
Christ laid the road map to peace("love one another as I have loved thee")
If one just adheres to the words atributed to Christ it becomes much clearer and more coherent than literal bible faith, it is also eliminates much conflicting dogma.
Christ has offered a comprehensive and all inclusive path to spiritual growth.
To all who claim the lable" christian" I would ask; Do you know him in your heart?Are HIS words your guide or is Paul and the mysogynistic repressive "CHURCH"?
I knew NOTHING until I read the words in red in my bible(In some bibles the WORDS of Christ are written in red). When I read them I saw their truth and beauty,I saw that these simple suggestions could cure the "human condition" I also saw that the "human condition" made the simple missives difficult tasks.
Christ has given a path to follow through the thicket of human behavior and desire.
He also left it to us to choose our destiny,to follow, or remain in the tangle of an existance without purpose.
WR:rasta:


--------------------
To old for this place


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: whiterasta]
    #1703582 - 07/10/03 07:42 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

A side note, I think all religions have important things to say, and good messages. Unfortunately, I think people look up to figures and icons like Jesus and Buddha as something to worship rather than someone who had something important to say. The message gets lost and people break it down to the age-old tradition of living their lives under a patriarchal prophet who never fulfills his promises (if they promised anything in the first place).


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



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Invisiblechunder
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Twirling]
    #1703866 - 07/10/03 10:00 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"A Perfect Circle lack melody first and foremost"

Sorry, this is just wrong. Hateration on APC is blasphemous.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: chunder]
    #1703978 - 07/10/03 10:35 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber. And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself. And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest. And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil. One thousand, nay a million voices full of fear. And terror possesed me then.

And I begged, "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?" And the angel said unto me, "These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots! You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them... it is the holocaust."

And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat like the tears of one million terrified brothers and roared, "Hear me now, I have seen the light! They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers!"

Can I get an amen?
Can I get a hallelujah?

Thank you Jesus.


~Disgustipated


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Grav]
    #1704003 - 07/10/03 10:42 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

No offense, but I think that it is funny that everybody wants Christians to respect other religions, yet nobody seems to respect Christianity. Am I forcing anybody to listen to me? I came hoping to find somebody willing to hear. I am sorry to sound so mean, and I apologize if I have hurt anyone's feelings. I will continue to be hear if anyone wants to search deeper...


--------------------

OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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OfflineGrav
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Funguy]
    #1704026 - 07/10/03 10:48 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I am not referring to all christians but how can you respect anybody that tells you their way is the one true way?

That's not very healthy communication.

I don't feel any hostility towards christains at all, I'm just not going to waste my time listening to the ones that preach.


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Grav]
    #1704093 - 07/10/03 11:03 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry, but that is the basis of our faith. By the way, I hate the word "religion." To me it sounds so fake. Being a Christian is incredibly hard, but even then, it is not about a religion, it is a relationship. Let me post my testimony...

When I was ten years old, I knew a little girl that was severly disabled. My mom knew her mother, who was a teacher at a local school (as was my mom). The little girl was going to die in a few months, and this broke my heart. I wanted to know where she would go when she died, and I wished I could take her place. My mom told me that she had been disabled both physically and mentally since childbirth, so she would go to heaven when she died. Then I asked about our preacher, because he had just been diagnosed with terminal cancer. I didn't want him to die either, I wished I could take his place so he could live with his family. My mom told me that Jesus had done that very thing, not just for him or me, but for everybody. Jesus took the sin of the whole world upon his shoulders, so that we may live in heaven when we die. At first I was ashamed, why would a perfect man die for me, a bad little 10 year old boy. I imagined the torture he went through, being beaten, spit upon, and crucified by the people he was sent to save. But even with people cursing him, he asked his Father to forgive them. I do not deserve to be a Christian, I deserve to go to Hell. But God actually loved me, and you, everybody enough to send his son to die for all of us! He won't make you accept him, it is your decision. If I am wrong, I lived a good life and have nothing to lose in the end. But what if, just if, you could be wrong?


--------------------

OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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Invisiblechunder
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Funguy]
    #1704144 - 07/10/03 11:16 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"Sorry, but that is the basis of our faith."

Your faith. ; )


--------------------


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Funguy]
    #1704169 - 07/10/03 11:25 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Funguy said: I do not deserve to be a Christian, I deserve to go to Hell. But God actually loved me, and you, everybody enough to send his son to die for all of us! He won't make you accept him, it is your decision. If I am wrong, I lived a good life and have nothing to lose in the end. But what if, just if, you could be wrong?




I think it's great that you have found comfort in your spirituality, and I fully respect your ability to make whatever decision you want. I grew up Christian, and so I understand that it is difficult to be Christian when a lot of people aren?t. However, I disagree with the guilt and shame, the idea that we are awful sinners, and that the only way to get past that is to accept that Jesus died so that we could be forgiven. To me, it has been a psychologically unhealthy mentality, but again, that?s me. You have every right to believe and see things in whatever way you want to.

And please, LET THE RABBITS WEAR GLASSES!!!!


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



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OfflineGrav
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Twirling]
    #1704197 - 07/10/03 11:35 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Funguy, just out of curiousity, do you still believe in hell?

And do you believe someone who does not worship the christian god will go to hell?


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Offlinedawn of a new day
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1704216 - 07/10/03 11:43 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I think it is pretty ridiculous for you to get on here and preach to all of us about being saved. I see religion as a very personal thing, and would not ever consider pushing my beliefs on another, but that is merely a preference. You can obviously do as you wish. I don't think that there is anything wrong with telling others about something that you feel is doing good things for you, but you don't need to do it with such a righteous attitude. That is what causes many people to lose respect for you. I respect your beliefs and have no problem with whatever you want to worship, but if you would like to tell others about it, it would probably help to do it in a friendlier and more casual way.


--------------------
"Why is marijuana against the law? It grows naturally upon our planet. Doesn't the idea of making nature against the law seem to you a bit . . . unnatural?"
- Bill Hicks


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Grav]
    #1704227 - 07/10/03 11:48 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I'd be lying if I said no. I know that I cannot prove the existence or non-existence of Hell. Just like I cannot prove the existence of Heaven or that Christianity is real. But I go by the faith that I have in my heart, and also by the information I have read in the Bible, and the book by Josh McDowell. If you want to know the truth behind Christianity, I recommend reading it. I'll even send you a free copy.


--------------------

OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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OfflineGrav
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: dawn of a new day]
    #1704228 - 07/10/03 11:48 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I agree.

Enter, you really need to work on your approach if your gonna get any converts. :wink:


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Offlinedawn of a new day
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Funguy]
    #1704243 - 07/10/03 11:52 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

How are you so sure that Josh McDowell knows "the truth" about Christianity?


--------------------
"Why is marijuana against the law? It grows naturally upon our planet. Doesn't the idea of making nature against the law seem to you a bit . . . unnatural?"
- Bill Hicks


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: dawn of a new day]
    #1704252 - 07/10/03 11:55 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Duh, because he was a skeptic beforehand! That has to make it the truth.


sarcasm.
tired.
bed.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Zahid]
    #1704405 - 07/11/03 12:59 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Eternal life is overrated anyway.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Funguy]
    #1704413 - 07/11/03 01:02 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Deep down, how many of you have a void in your heart, one that cannot be filled with anything. Only one thing can fill that hole, Jesus.



I used to have that void, but it didn't take Jesus to fill it. All it took was 5 grams of the sacred mushrooms.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Funguy]
    #1704432 - 07/11/03 01:09 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

No offense, but I think that it is funny that everybody wants Christians to respect other religions, yet nobody seems to respect Christianity.



I respect Christians who are open-minded towards other religions. I have great respect for my grandfather, who is a Christian, and that respect isn't just because of my relation to him. He is one of the most progressive, thoughtful Christians I have ever met. He has studied several other world religions, published books of theology, and has a fascinating worldview. I don't have much respect for Christians who believe that they alone know the key to salvation, and that the rest of us are going to perish, no matter how good we are as people.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: silversoul7]
    #1704521 - 07/11/03 01:56 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

so why does acknowledging that christianity is one of many valid religions make it less valid? Why can't you be christiian but at the same time understand there are other religions out there as well?


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Twirling]
    #1704571 - 07/11/03 02:11 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"To me, it has been a psychologically unhealthy mentality"
To the subject off hell:
I concur, I was raised same as you(religion wise) and I find it horrible that parents raise kids and instill these values upon them. I dont think its right for anyone to tell a kid if they arent good, god will send them to hell. Kids arent smart enough to realize they have a choice sometimes, especially at a young age, and with something they dont even understand(and not even kid kids, but teenagers). Basicly, I feel, a LARGE majority of christians today are still christians because of this deep rooted subconcious fear of eternal damnation(wether even realized, or not), that all began at a yound age... I dont know who said it, but roughly qouting someone on the shroomery "its mass phsycosis".... Dont get me wrong, I beleive in "god" but sure as hell not as christianity portrays him. Im sorry that your god will allow people do go to hell... and dont give me the " GOD doesent send people to hell, people send themselves" speal, cause ive heard 16 years of it ; )


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: trendal]
    #1704788 - 07/11/03 03:27 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1704813 - 07/11/03 03:35 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1704875 - 07/11/03 03:58 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

no, the only person that has the power to save is Thom Yorke, everyone knows that.





The little pixie sure saved me... :grin:

Phew! for a minute there I lost myself! 


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: GazzBut]
    #1704906 - 07/11/03 04:06 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

On a more serious note I think that attachment to any "religion" or "system" will eventually place a limit on your spirtual growth. You have to be ready to let go of everything in the end.


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Funguy]
    #1705120 - 07/11/03 06:27 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

How many of you have wondered whether or not there is something more in life? Deep down, how many of you have a void in your heart, one that cannot be filled with anything. Only one thing can fill that hole, Jesus.




Funguy, I assume you are aware that there are several people on this forum who have already filled that void, people who have already experienced salvation and the kingdom of heaven?

And some of us did that without the help of Jesus, except perhaps as a source of inspiration like all the other great spiritual teachers.


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1705382 - 07/11/03 11:18 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Well, I respect your beliefs, even though I don't agree with them. All I am required to do is plant the seed. However, if anyone feels that they want to know more about what Christ can do for you, please, please PM me.


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: chunder]
    #1705418 - 07/11/03 11:40 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

<<people break it down to the age-old tradition of living their lives under a patriarchal prophet who never fulfills his promises >>

I wonder what matriarchal one ever did?


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Funguy]
    #1705519 - 07/11/03 12:47 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I appreciate your good intent. And I have been impressed many times by the positive spiritual effects that christian faith has in people, so I'm not trying to discourage you from making it available and accessible to others. Just remember that the message is more likely to find its intended targets if you present it in a way that is appropriate for the audience.


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1705726 - 07/11/03 01:58 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Hello Enter, Satan here:

You need to question this "jesus" more!

Why will he save you/or us? I think that jesus is going to enslave us!


God is not a noun, its a verb (even though its tough to be God!)


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Funguy]
    #1705798 - 07/11/03 02:15 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Funguy with all do respect, and I am not an anti Christian, I my self come from a catholic back ground.
But I have to ask you a question do you do and experience etheogens?
I await your answer.

The reason I ask you that because thru the years in this forum I have observed over and over again, people that come to this forum not to share and had never experienced ethogens but because in there mind they think this is a place of lost souls do to ?Drug usage? and try to ?save them?.

For those that complain that Christians are not respected and criticize in this forum, you should really take a closer look at what Christians say to get that criticism.

Enter started this topic stating that the only one that saves is Jesus bla bla bla.

Basically he said to all of us that we are all wrong and that all our beliefs are incorrect.
Is the arrogance that most Christians express in their blind fanaticism that shows their lack of understanding and spirituality
You don?t see Jew?s trying to convince you, or Hindus, Buddhists not even Muslims.
But you will always find a Christian trying to force the ?Truth? into you
It will be very different if they will say "In my opinion" or "the one that saved me" was Jesus.
If you want to see a true Christian look at the life Madre Theresa, she did not have to preach or convince you she lived that path of a Christian.

Another thing is the hypocrite attitude in most Christians in their drive to convert and save others, but if you place close look at there lives are a total mess.
I will say to them make and effort and saving your selves before saving others.



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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: LOBO]
    #1705900 - 07/11/03 02:46 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Yes I see your point. I do believe that ethnogens have a place in a Christian's life, if used responsibly. I have been looked down upon by many "Christians" who say I am filled with the Devil, yet they are drunkards themselves. Sometimes Christians are their own biggest enemy. Yet, look at the different definitions of "Christian." Most people think that if they go to Church and be a good person, that makes them a Christian. Others feel that they can do what they want as long as they repent every Sunday. The latter make me sick. They are the ones who often need Christ the most. The basis of Christianity is to convert others to Christ, but through love and understanding.
I have a challenge, if anyone is brave enough to take it on. I have constantly offered a free copy of "The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict," written by Josh McDowell. So far nobody has taken it. So I'm going to do this. If anybody can read the book, and still say Christianity is false, I will send a free pack of 50 Hawaiian baby woodrose seeds. (Even if you find it to be true, I will still send the seeds). The book is no cost, and I'll pay shipping. The "contest" will go to the first person to email me:
1. Their own personal beliefs
2. What they think of Christianity
3. Why they think that
4. Name and address
Who's up to the challenge?


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OTD UNDERDOGS

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Grav]
    #1706068 - 07/11/03 03:34 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

The "spark" was in His Heart, not His Head. Gnostics use the word 'spark,' as the point which connects humans to the 'Fullness' [Pleroma] of the Godhead. That point is Christ.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Funguy]
    #1706277 - 07/11/03 04:48 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Funguy, I don?t pretend to hold the truth nor is my intention to change the mind of any one out there. To each there own plus I know no one can change you, you change your self.
I just come here to share my experiences and reflexions surrounding my life and ethogens.
The lesson that I brought back from my journeys into infinity, is that no one knows anything for sure, no one saves you, there is nothing to be saved from, creation is so indescribable so multidimensional so inexplicable, so full of love.(and that is just a glimpse into the work of God)
That the only thing I can do is be in owe, give thanks for my life and some how connect back to that.
If you think that the basis of Christianity is to convert to ?Christ?.
Well my friend in my humble opinion you miss by a long shot what the skinny guy was trying to teach.
He was teaching about love and compassion, something very absent in the words and actions or Christians these days.
Thru love and compassion you connect back to that source .
You can not convert some one to ?Christ?, because the ?Christ? is a state of being, when you live in love and compassion you become the "Christ?.
If you really want to change people live in love and compassion, that way you awaken love in others that is what Jesus did not throwing books at them or forcing to accept his word. That came later by regular disgruntled man who distorted every thing.
People like religions rules and dogmas, I know I did, in that way there is no need to think you just accept a clean rapt up package, do this don?t do that, now you go to heaven.
That in my opinion is to simplistic to infantile, but to love that?s a lot effort from your self , you have to overcome all the monkey in you to do it.

Now going back to Christianity, and your drive to send bibles; realistically is been 2000 years since bibles are being thrown at people, has humanity changed? Honestly
Has all the converts to Christ made this world a world of love?
We have a president that says he has convert to ?Christ? do you feel the love that he sends to the world?
We live in a country (ruled by Christians) and I have to hide my use of ethogens for fear of being put in jail persecuted, and if they had there way probably killed.
What is my crime? Is tiring to find God a crime?
So forgive me if I don?t share your enthusiasm of spreading the so call only true religion


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Edited by LOBO (07/11/03 04:50 PM)


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: LOBO]
    #1706298 - 07/11/03 04:54 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Pattern: "BTW - Did anyone notice that this post was only written toward Christians? Yet everyone else couldn't help themselves to jump on board with this thread"

wow....could you get any more stereotypical?


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1706347 - 07/11/03 05:09 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

What do the scriptures say regarding drug usage?

Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft (pharmakeia), hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The greek word pharmakeia relates to the use of drugs and sorceries. Sorcery is the use of drugs to seduce and enslave others by occult means.

This laundry list is to expose the heart. If one has become saved they will have an earnest desire to obey the Word because they were given a new heart and have been convinced that the Word did not come from men, but directly from God. Though one may fall into some of these sins after becoming saved they can not continue sinning because in the soul they will be deeply troubled. This will lead to godly sorrow for sin and true repentance.

If someone claims to be a Christian and continues in open rebellion, in doctrine and actions, then this is good evidence they have never been given a new heart and are currently unregenerate. Unless they are truly converted by God's grace, then they will have been shown to be one of the reprobate.

The Christian has no reason to use drugs since:

2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.


Another reason why drug usage is opposed to the Word is that Christians are to obey those in authority. Since most drugs are illegal this would directly violate the Word.

Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

1 Peter 13-14
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.



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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: fivepointer]
    #1706575 - 07/11/03 06:42 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

<<Another reason why drug usage is opposed to the Word is that Christians are to obey those in authority. Since most drugs are illegal this would directly violate the Word.>>

No passage may be stripped of it's pashat, thererfor, what man has said cannot supercede the Word or judgement of God and to suggest that is blasphemous enough, but throwing the stumbling block too is more against the direct word of God than marijuana or magic mushrooms. I mean ipso facto.
I do not think you make a scripturally valid case, but I see the "home made gentile hermeneutics" and submit that as a supreme resaon people aren't fond of so-called fundies and why the Church has so many problems with honesty, integrity and forthrightness before the people because it has embraced this "replacement theology" so long it can no longer read, use or share the "Book of Good Farming" and I suggest someone else(s) may have not really found the heart though they may be "wise in thier own conceits".....


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Funguy]
    #1706950 - 07/11/03 09:22 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I slip in and out of christianity..

but I feel the need to reply to "Well, I respect your beliefs, even though I don't agree with them. All I am required to do is plant the seed. However, if anyone feels that they want to know more about what Christ can do for you, please, please PM me."

Christ said that Christians are to spread the word through their actions, and not words


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1707024 - 07/11/03 09:56 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Enter, are you once again trying to say that unless we follow your belief we are fucked and useless and will burn in a firey inferno for all of eternity after we die?


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Strumpling]
    #1707187 - 07/11/03 10:53 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Fivepointer, by that definition then we shouldn't even use tylenol. I have used Ganja many times, and it doesn't make me want to go out and kill people. I praise God just as I do when sober. Be careful when you say obey man's law, I know plenty of people that preach against using drugs, yet they commonly go 30 miles over the speed limit. That is the problem with Christians now adays, many of them cannot agree on different issues. What kind of example is that?


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Offlinecurenado
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Funguy]
    #1707346 - 07/12/03 12:10 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

<<Enter, are you once again trying to say that unless we follow your belief we are fucked and useless and will burn in a firey inferno for all of eternity after we die?>>

There's always more to a picture than meets the eye.......did you know that it is an adage of this faith that anyone who has truly cared even for a moment - is not utterly in danger of falling from the tree of life?

It is also written: "It is not what goeth into a man that can render him unclean, but what cometh out."

Jesus also said "I have sheep that are not of this fold"

Jesus also said "Judge ye in the spirit and not the letter"

and isn't it written "...all things received with joy and thanksgiving"......

So far we have little actually in the way of the letter, and much at risk in the way of the spirit.
I perceive that you are all essentially near each other - the rest is semantics and details. I perceive no intentionally hateful one either.

We are halfway to shalom ~


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No one is listening to me as usual [Re: fivepointer]
    #1707961 - 07/12/03 07:18 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Offlinenubious
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: fivepointer]
    #1707997 - 07/12/03 08:23 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

This is for you Fivepointer...

Quote:

These words are not my own. I found it to be interesting personally and thought I would share. They were taken from here:

http://www.shroomwizard.com/spirituality.html

There are a great many people who would never consider the use of visionary plants to be a spiritual experience. These people believe that spiritual experiences must come directly from God and that the use of visionary plants goes against the teachings of the Bible. Contrary to this notion, the Bible never explicitly prohibits the use of visionary plants or potions. What you will find however, is many curious references to a spiritual food sent down from heaven by God, called manna.

The Bible never tells us exactly what manna was and where it came from, but there are many Old Testament passages which describe its physical qualities and conditions associated with its appearance. The Bible's first reference to manna is in the Book of Exodus as the children of Israel are fleeing from Egypt and following Moses into the wilderness. After six weeks of wandering, they began complaining to Moses that they are tired and hungry. What happens next is truly extraordinary:

Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will vain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law or no (16:4). And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground (16: 14). And when the children of Israel saw if, they said one to another It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the Lord hath given you to eat.

When I read this passage, I was struck by the fact that manna easily fits the description of Psilocybe mushrooms. For one thing magic mushrooms are small and round, with the limited vocabulary they had back then they could only describe it as resembling white patches of frost in the field (today we would say they looked like paper plates or something) and since they sprout so rapidly they would seem to appear overnight, as if out of the sky. Also, anyone harvesting them would immediately notice that they turn blue where torn and had no roots, giving more reason to believe that the mushrooms were of celestial origin. Note that manna does not just fall from heaven, but instead it is described as coming with the frost and dew, during the wet seasons. These are the precise weather conditions for mushrooms to thrive. And finally, manna is described as a bread (meaning something to eat).

Although translations have obscured the intent of this passage, it seems to be a description of how to find and identify manna and distinguish it from other non- psychoactive (or possibly lethal) mushrooms. Look for the small round things which are like bread, come with the dew (or rain), and seem to have heavenly (bluish) coloring.

It is also interesting to note that Moses tells the children of Israel that manna comes directly from Heaven to test them on whether or not they will walk in God's law. Here is evidence that manna was endowed with unusual spiritual powers, like those of magic mushrooms. However, manna does not automatically confer spiritual power. Instead, it serves as a test. Magic mushrooms would provide visionary experiences that would certainly test all who ingested them. Moses also said that the manna is literally the "bread of the lord" which is remarkably similar to the literal Aztec name for Psilocybe mushrooms, "flesh of the gods."

But how and why did the manna suddenly appear? Again referring to the Bible, it is clear that the children of Israel had journeyed to a land where there was dew in the morning. As a large, nomadic tribe, the Israelites brought a lot of cattle and sheep together in the area. That meant a great deal of manure. The change of climate from the arid lands of Egypt to the dewy climate of the wilderness created ideal conditions for the propagation and spread of Psilocybe mushrooms in livestock dung.

In Exodus 12: 19-20, we find more references to manna.

And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning (16:19). Notwithstanding they harkened not unto Moses. but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms and stank: and Moses was wroth with them(16.20). And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating. and when the sun waxed hot it melted...(16:21).

Anyone familiar with wild mushrooms knows that they go bad very quickly and shrivel up under the heat of the sun, exactly like manna.

It seems curious that Moses recognized the manna instantly when the children of Israel showed it to him. He knew that the manna would spoil if it was not picked and eaten in the morning. But how did Moses know about manna? Perhaps Moses knew about manna because he had already encountered the mushroom at the time he saw the burning bush. Referring to art earlier period of his life, we find that Moses:

...kept a flock of Jethro, his father in-law the priest of Midiam: and he led the flock to the back side of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb (3:1). And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed (3:2).

Had Moses eaten the sacred mushroom while camped at the mountain? Here again we can only speculate that manure from his flock and a change in climate had created the proper environment for the mushrooms to fruit. Perhaps Moses ingested the mush- rooms purely by accident, or perhaps his father in law, who we know was also a priest, had introduced Moses to the mushroom. Archaeological evidence of psychedelic mushroom use in Biblical times is well documented by Terence McKenna, so it is reasonable to conclude that Moses could have had some experience with visionary mushrooms. Terence McKenna, Food of the Gods, (New York, Harper Collins) p. 84

Later, in Numbers 11:6-9, manna is again described in terms that are remarkably similar to magic mushrooms:

But now our soul is dried away: there is nothing at all, beside this manna, before our eyes. And the manna was as coriander seed, and the colour thereof as the colour of bdelliaum. And the people went about and gathered it, and ground it in mills, or beat it in a mortar and baked it in pans: and made cakes of it: and the taste of it was as the taste of fresh oil. And when the dew fell upon the camp in the night, the manna fell upon it.

Here we find manna described as before our eyes, having a neutral taste like fresh oil, and once again, the Bible mentions that manna appearing in the morning when the dew fell. The Old Testament even tells us what manna looks like, the manna was as coriander seed, and the colour thereof. When Psilocybe mushrooms are dried, their range of colors is virtually identical to dried coriander seed. In both cases, with mushrooms and coriander seeds, we see great similarities in the texture, color, tones, contrasts and general visual appearance. The Children of Israel must have given great thought about how to transmit the appearance of manna so as to aid future generations who might encounter it. However, mushrooms were a mystery to the Hebrews and they were unable to predict where manna could be found. Little did they realize that the manure from their cattle was providing a means for the mushroom to find its way into their mountain campsites.

Notice that the manna was ground in mills or beat it in a mortar. That is odd because earlier we are told that manna was quite delicate and, then the sun wax hot, it melted. However, if manna was the Psilocybe mushroom, then it was probably dried and then ground in order to be used for baking. In fact, dried magic mushrooms are quite hard. Grinding or crushing the dried mushroom and then baking with the powder would insure that the delicate psychoactive molecules retained their highest potency. Dried and ground mushrooms can be added to a bread or cake recipe as a flour substitute with excellent results.

In the next passage, the Bible describes manna as having light tan color and texture like a wafer, certainly an accurate description of the color and texture of a dried Psilocybe mushroom. We also learn that the taste of manna is no longer that of fresh oil but rather that of honey. According to McKenna's re- search', honey has long been used in Mexico as a preserve medium for psilocybin containing mushrooms. Perhaps the children of Israel had begun to mix honey with the manna to preserve its potency. We find that Moses announced that manna must be kept for future generations:

And the house of Israel called the name there of manna: and it was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey(l6: 31). And Moses said, This is the thing which the LORD commandeth. Fill an omer of it to be kept for your generations: that they may see the bread where with I have fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you forth from the land of Egypt (16: 32).

Again we are told to fill an omer with manna But how much is a omer? Isaac Asimov, in his book on the Bible, concludes that an omer is about four liters, while the King James version of the Bible estimates an omer to be six pints. Psilocybe mushrooms are 92% water and only 8% remains when they are dried. Also, fresh mushroom take up a lot of space, due to their shape. So four liters of fresh magic mushrooms would yield less than a tenth of a liter, or about 1/4 cup of dried, powdered manna This corresponds closely with the amount of magic mushrooms required for a moderately strong dose when used for baking This is important because it clearly shows that not only does manna have similar qualities to magic mushrooms, it also shows that it was also used in the same quantity as mushrooms. So manna matches Psilocybe mushroom on both a qualitative and quantitative analysis providing a compelling argument that Psilocybe mushrooms are in actuality "manna from Heaven."

Of course there are those who will remain eternally skeptical, but keep in mind that the description of manna given in the old testament bears an exact resemblance to mushrooms. Even if Psilocybe mushrooms are not manna the similarities have indicated mushrooms as a possible candidate, and they certainly fit the bill for a "spiritual food'. Unfortunately, when the Children of Israel finally reach the arid land of Canaan, the mysterious manna no longer appeared.

And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land: neither had the children of Israel manna any more.

The children of Israel must have been deeply disappointed when they ran out of their sacred manna. We can see that they went to great lengths to preserve their knowledge about identifying and using manna The Old Testament contains detailed information about the color, texture, appearance, and relationship to dew, and the Old Testament even explains how manna is to be ground and then used in baking cakes. If the Israelites thought that manna was a magical event caused by God would they have bothered to note all the details about the identification of manna? What about the manna that Moses said must be put away for future generations? Turning to Hebrews 9:3&4 we find:

And after the second vail, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all: Which had the golden censer and the Ark of the Covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna...

Here we learn that manna was to be kept in the Holiest of all, the Ark of the Covenant. Clearly, the manna was something of great spiritual power since the Hebrews treated it with such reverence and even went to such great lengths to see that manna be given to future generations along with the original tablets containing God's Ten Commandments that Moses brought down from the mountain.

The discovery that manna was (and is) Psilocybe mushrooms is not simply an issue of theological or academic debate. So great was the power conferred by manna, that this small band of wandering slaves were able to defeat all enemies who crossed their path even when confronted by armies that were bigger and better equipped. Jews, Christians and Moslems can all trace their roots to the children of Israel who ate manna for forty years and saw themselves as God's chosen people. Again, we are reminded of McKenna"s thesis that those who ate Psilocybe mushrooms had a survival advantage due to better visual acuity, heightened senses, better hunting skills, and for the children of Israel, better warrior skills. Manna gave the Hebrews their own covenant with God one that is even recognized today by Christians who believe that the Jews have already earned a special place as the Chosen People. Bible scholar Grant R Jeffrey explains:

"The covenant which God made with Abraham and the kingdom promises to David, Solomon and all the prophets will be finally realized in the Millennial Kingdom... the Lord promised a new covenant with Ismel in which He would give them a new heart, forgiveness of sin, and the infilling of the Spirit to the renewed nation. This promised kingdom will provide the fulfillment of all the hopes and dreams of the Chosen People forever"'

What is the new covenant? It is the rediscovery of manna. Across the gulf of thousands of years the Bible transmits and accurate and detailed description of manna waiting for the time when the message can be decoded and manna can again fulfill its role as a celestial messenger. Manna was the basis of the Jewish covenant with God. Indeed, it is this covenant and the use of manna which has set the Jews apart as the Chosen People. The Bible is not the message, it only points the way. Manna is the holy sacrament that provides the means for God to "prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no."

If manna is indeed the psilocybin mushroom, then this means that the Koran, Bible, and Torah were all inspired by psychedelically induced visions. The very foundations upon which these religions rest were derived from the mushroom experience. Moses and the children of Israel used the mushrooms as true sacraments to communicate with a Higher Power, also known as Allah, God and Yahweh. The discovery that manna is real and is available to us today means that like children of Israel we too can use manna to experience the joy, wisdom and spiritual renewal of the Chosen People.





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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: nubious]
    #1708394 - 07/12/03 02:02 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: nubious]
    #1708395 - 07/12/03 02:03 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Enter wrote-
Paul the Apostle wrote very specific instructions ....

From what I'm reading it sounds like you do not consider the whole Word as inspired. I apologize if I am wrong. Paul, Peter, John, Moses, Jeremiah ect. did not write the scriptures of themselves. Under the Holy Spirit these men wrote and every word is from God and is infallable, inerrant and providentially preserved.

2 Peter 1:20-1
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.


Enter wrote-
Some people have a longer list of "what will get you into eternal hell" than others.

What gets you into hell is ANY sin in the least of the law. In fact all are already under judgment by the first transgression in Adam.

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Adam's (the Federal head of the race) transgression condemned the entire race, Christ's righteousness covers the sins of His elect since he represents them and has become a surety on their behalf.

Personal obediance has nothing to do with becoming or staying justified. Personal obediance is seen by those who have been converted. If a person claims to be Christian and yet does not repent and obey the Word, then this shows he is non-elect (unless converted later) and is a false professor. Almost all today fall into this category.


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1708402 - 07/12/03 02:09 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I was taught in school that "mana" was probably the dried resin from desert plants that had been bitten by insects. The juices were very sweet and would seep out of wounds and dry quickly into a thin film that could be peeled off, or would fall to the ground in flakes around the plant.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: fivepointer]
    #1708440 - 07/12/03 02:29 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: trendal]
    #1708442 - 07/12/03 02:32 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1708516 - 07/12/03 03:18 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

<<I was taught in school that "mana" was probably the dried resin from desert plants that had been bitten by insects. The juices were very sweet and would seep out of wounds and dry quickly into a thin film that could be peeled off, or would fall to the ground in flakes around the plant. >>

I picked that up too along the way, but can't remember where exactly? A locust type buggy of some sort?
The biggest hole in the manna theory for me is the daily consumption of psilocybin - I think it's a great medicine but have never tried to do that......it also does not possess the nutrition requirements of a tribe of all age desert dwellers.
This does not detract from the possibilities and supporting evidence, I'm just saying it may be in another direction besides the manna....


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: curenado]
    #1708530 - 07/12/03 03:26 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

<<is a false professor. Almost all today fall into this category.>>

I think more by ignorance and clumsiness than malice though  :blush: - except for the mean ignorant ones :nonono:....and well there they are then..... :shake:

I don't think anyone here was trying to be one o' those........ 


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: fivepointer]
    #1708537 - 07/12/03 03:28 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

What gets you into hell is ANY sin in the least of the law. In fact all are already under judgment by the first transgression in Adam.

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.





Yes, that's what James said... But I find it more enlightening to read the accounts of what Jesus said and did. Jesus and his disciples broke the law all the time. They illegally plucked ears of corn on the sabbath:

Mark 2:23
And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?

And at one point the Pharisees complained when Jesus and his company didn't bother to wash their hands before eating, and Jesus countered:

Mark 7:8
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Throughout the gospels, Jesus is constantly playing a game of rhetoric with the Pharisees. When he talks about the law he means acting with a loving spirit, in a responsible way, with the focus on the kingdom of heaven. The Pharisees on the other hand are always talking about very important written rules that must be obeyed to the letter. Jesus always trips the logic of the rule-fanatics. I can't see how anyone can read the gospels and miss this point.


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1710363 - 07/13/03 01:42 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Hey enter i wounder if you are open minded about the serpents side of the story.  :grin: :devil: 

here 


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1710410 - 07/13/03 02:00 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

JohnnyFive - it seems that you are just trying to be antagonistic and promote satan and the matrix as a religion? (To replace starwars perhaps now that you're aging some?)
Oh and by the way -
<<Some of the scenes in the movie are directly out of books by Carlos Castaneda; an anthropology professor who became the student of a real Yaqui Indian sorcerer called Don Juan.>>

Everybody with two bits of IQ knows that Carlos made up the series - it's common knowledge. There are some common threads in them but the series is manufactured and still no Don Jaun (maybe he is morpheus dude?)
Satan still the father of lies and bringer of strife among men......
Great gig dude.......


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"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: No one is listening to me as usual [Re: World Spirit]
    #1710501 - 07/13/03 02:44 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah...I believe that one of the reasons that I'm growing my hair long again (besides that fact that Rose likes it, it looks good on me, blah, blah, blah...is just because the [probably] bald Saul/Paul calls it "shameful." But, of course, unbalding Jewish men of the day wore their hair long, oiled, and pony-tailed (like the figure on the Shroud of Turin (regardless of its authenticity or lack thereof). Of course, Paul never in his wildest dreams thought that his letters to new communities of The Way (since folks didn't call themselves Christians yet) were going to be turned into Holy Scriptures (for crying out loud).

Yep...I remember going through my own love-hate relationship with Paul: Albert Scweiter's 'Mysticism of Paul the Apostle,' Gunther Bornkamm's 'Paul, etc., etc. He did illustrate that the resurrected Christ was ontologically different than the man Jesus, and the author we call John extended that theology into Logos-theology. He also had amazing out-of-the-body ecstasies [ecstasy=being beside oneself], and caught up to "the third heaven," which obviously infers some kind of esoteric knowledge (gnosis) about a series of heavens. So, on the one hand Paul makes up his own sense of ethics ("by permission, not commandment"), he is misogynistic, and as some scholars suspect, his 'thorn in his side,' may be a nagging homosexuality behind his misogyny and his asking married men to be as though they didn't have wives. On the other side, he is an example of some pretty classical mystical experiences.

It is probable that Paul would have relegated mushroom use - even ritually handled, as was the Kykeon at Eleusis - as pharmakeia - sorcery. Today, we understand pharmacy to be an aspect of medicine - even psychiatric medicine, and by more hip intellectuals, as Huxley's "Moksha [liberation] Medicine." The Indians had Soma (probably a mushroom), and the Greeks had Claviceps Pasapali ergot at Eleusis - a fungus that also produces tiny mushrooms. If Socrates did in fact partake of the Kykeon, a lot of questions would be answered about how his pupil Plato got his knowledge of archetypes. And if Plato was influenced by psychedelics, then Christianity was influenced by psychedelics inasmuch as Platonic and Neoplatonic elements contribute to a great deal of Christian theology - especially the Johannine stuff. The Native American Church uses peyote as the Body of Christ, and the ancient Greek wines contained not just alcohol, but certain herbs, so that some wines had to be diluted 20:1 with water, or they would kill a man. Dionysus was god of intoxication and madness, not just the grape. No one knows what kind of wine Iesus employed at the Last supper. If it contained psychoactives in order to help his friends get a grasp of the secret things which the masses were told in obtuse parables - so what? That Moses and Aaron compounded a Holy Annointing oil that contained Calamus - and Calamus is full of TMA - a psychedelic precursor to Mescaline which would've been absorbed through the skin, is right out of Exodus. Sorcery? No more than the other magickal stories attributed to Moses. After all, Moses was the adopted son of a Pharoah - a prince, and learned in Egyptian knowledge, which contained medicine and magick.

Sorcery, or low magick has nothing to do with God, but with elemental or Qlippothic [Kabbalistic demonic] spirits. High Magick includes such concepts as Transubstantiation and Sacraments (as embodying a kind of power). I have used the Sacred Mushroom as a sacrament of the One True God, and at a spiritually less-developed point of my life, I called the same substance Magic Mushrooms. The Truth lies in the Intention, not the substance. That is why Baptisms have been considered to be valid, when performed during emergencies, by lay people with urine or sea water. The Divine Intention alone, without Prescribed Formulas of Words and without proper Substance (Holy Water) is recognized. One must discern the Intention of an act to know its essential Truth. Without discernment, people rely on dogmas, which reminds me of the saying, 'if you can't fix something with a hammer, it ain't worth fixing.'


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: No one is listening to me as usual [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1710728 - 07/13/03 04:27 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Damn... religion sure does complicate things.

*runs off humming Soldier Girl by the Polyphonic Spree*


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Re: No one is listening to me as usual [Re: Sclorch]
    #1710736 - 07/13/03 04:31 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I dig science because it seems way more flexible than most religions, where if somehow there is a discovery that proves "oh hehehe we were probably wrong about that last thing.. whoops.... here's how we think it is NOW, and that is certainly subject to future disproof," then they're willing to admit it, instead of saying things like "no dammit its like THIS; like it ALWAYS HAS BEEN and ALWAYS WILL BE!"


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Re: No one is listening to me as usual [Re: Strumpling]
    #1710759 - 07/13/03 04:42 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I'm pretty sure that religion and fallibilism are incompatible by definition.

It should be noted that science as an institution is not inherently immune to dogmatic thinking.


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Re: No one is listening to me as usual [Re: Sclorch]
    #1711084 - 07/13/03 12:08 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:

*runs off humming Soldier Girl by the Polyphonic Spree





um
I went to that website
I'm not sure if thise music is too complex for me to understand or if it's actually just REALLY LAME. *confused*  :oogle:


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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Re: No one is listening to me as usual [Re: Sclorch]
    #1711332 - 07/13/03 02:12 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

No my friend, religion simplified the innumerable choices set before me during late adolescence. THE question was: "How shall I Be?" Should I be greedy, materialistic, womanizing, lying-when-I-want to, stoned-full-time, selfish, warm and fuzzy, mean, out-for-myself, etc., etc., etc.

The answer was: 'BE THOU COMPASSIONATE.' Simple.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: No one is listening to me as usual [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1711619 - 07/13/03 04:15 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah... I gave up on BEing a long time ago.
BEing is for objects of a more static nature than I.
So now I focus on beCOMing... it suits this beast better.


AJ: um
I went to that website
I'm not sure if thise music is too complex for me to understand or if it's actually just REALLY LAME. *confused*


Watch the videos (and check out the band photos)... then you should understand it a little better.
How could you not like a "choral symphonic pop band"?
hehehe


--------------------
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Re: No one is listening to me as usual [Re: Sclorch]
    #1712447 - 07/13/03 09:41 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:

Watch the videos (and check out the band photos)... then you should understand it a little better.
How could you not like a "choral symphonic pop band"?
hehehe 




ok... I still don't understand what's going on. if these guys are serious they need to lose the robes and shit, it makes them look silly. if it's a joke band, then it's just not my kind of thing. I guess I just don't get it. I like Mr. Bungle  :confused:


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1719281 - 07/15/03 10:09 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

What school did you go to, if I may ask, Trendal? I'd be interested to know why they taught you about manna and what you think of it today.




It was in High School. I went to a Catholic High School here in Ontario, Canada.

What do I think of it now? I think it's a reasonable explanation. It certainly seems more possible (within what I understand to be the "bounds of physical reality") than little gifts from God. But that may just be my opinion  :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Grav]
    #1719429 - 07/15/03 11:05 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

You can apply the teachings of Jesus without believing that he was resurrected. Because if you believe that, you're sick. End of story. There is nothing that can save humanity at this point. We either get clocked by a meteor, we blow ourselves up with what Einstien had intended to use for time travel or the Sun explodes or the black hole in the center of the milky way galaxy will swallow us. Just enjoy what you got while you got it because it won't be here forever and neither will you or your tainted ego. Deal with it.



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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: trendal]
    #1719542 - 07/15/03 11:56 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1719588 - 07/16/03 12:16 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

i used to be a follower of the christian faith, but after coming to some realizations about life/spirituality and i have changed my views. there are far too many flaws in the bible...check out this site and look at the quetions
http://members.aol.com/bbu84/biblicalstupidity/tough.htm


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1719829 - 07/16/03 01:20 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

<<Just enjoy what you got while you got it because it won't be here forever and neither will you or your tainted ego. Deal with it. >>

That seems to be a really painful religion......you have more proof of this that you know than Jesus? (I'm just funning you man - but you do sound a bit too torn....) :lol:


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Edited by curenado (07/16/03 01:21 AM)


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OfflineDrubuShrume
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: chunder]
    #1719935 - 07/16/03 01:55 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Isn't there a book dedicated to the teachings of Christ, rather than the bible which is a 2-part religious text?


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: DrubuShrume]
    #1720338 - 07/16/03 04:10 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1720963 - 07/16/03 10:43 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

There are works that are scriptural and derivative.
The reason we have the four gospels is because when it was decided to assemble a bible decades after Jesus and John had both gone, a roman catholic bishop reported that there "must be upwards of 200 gospels" in his district and hence, this guy got the job of picking which could be added to a make reasonably sized canon. (The volume of "bible qualified" writngs is huge and a large part of what you thoink of as the "Old Testament" comes from the "Masoretic Text")
This area of history and revelation is both hopeful and frustrating for christians and non christians because it usually offers both sides something to be glad for and something to think about (you know....)

But as regards Rabbi Y'shua ben Yoseph (Jesus the son of Joseph) one of the few surving historical accounts by a guy who couldn't seem to decide if he was a Jew or a Roman (you know those guys...)
gives passing reference to a district of the region "recently in much tumult because of one Jesus" (as in a person named Jesus making or being the cause of a ruckus...)


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Edited by curenado (07/16/03 10:52 AM)


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: curenado]
    #1720996 - 07/16/03 10:58 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Another modern weakness is more people want to preach the bible than they do study it, and there actually are traditional methods of study and interpretation that make it a completely different book than people who can't really read it clearly or understand it know - but keep faith in. That is part of the gentile (and modern white christian) blessing - Jesus told people in these times to love each other, not be Torah experts or try to "inflict" the Word on each other.
as it is written "Blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the coming in of the Gentiles."

"Jesus won't begrudge it and the Chaplain works for me." - The Lion in Winter


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: curenado]
    #1721147 - 07/16/03 11:56 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1721346 - 07/16/03 01:20 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, you are very correct - remember this passage "if the things Jesus said and did were to be written down the world would not be large enough to contain the books" ?
That's what the gospels were - accounts of the living Jesus by those who had been near him passed on through the oral tradition until they began to be written down and you have to figure a guy who spent three years walking and talking to people - what it would be like if everyone who met Mother Theresa wrote an account of it.......

Masoretic text
Here is one link http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/ipb-e/tanach/ipbe-tn.html
and here is one that just offers info about it
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic_Text

Traditional Hermeneutics (interpretation as Jesus learned it)
http://www.wildernessnazarene.com/pardes.html

He most likely would have known the "rules" of Hillel also, and you can find them at www.nazarene.net under hermeneutics

(Hilell was a beloved Jewish teacher and saintly type person who said "What thou hate, do it not unto thy neighbor; that is the whole of the Torah." about 200 BC)

We compare this to Jesus "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and we see a continuation of the whole thing from beginning to end rather than a chopped up meshuga  :lol: 


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Praise the Lord [Re: World Spirit]
    #1721352 - 07/16/03 01:26 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Amen.


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Re: Praise the Lord [Re: Anno]
    #1721388 - 07/16/03 01:46 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Josephus Flavius was also the one who tipped the bag about the ancient Essene brothers:

"Some of them undertake to predict the future through various purifications, the purusal of sacred texts (brontology) and the use of a "digested oracle" -
Add that to Benny Shannon (Hebrew University Jerusalem) who went out to see that gigantic field of syrian rue right next to the Qumran ruins and the presence of mimosa and 9(+?) species of neurotropic fungi in the region - and one begins to wonder "hmmm.....IS that where Qabbalah came from?"
(historians now think qabbalah as well as the "updating" or even writing of Genesis may have taken place at Qumran or among the Jewish Essenes)
OK - I talk about a lot of this stuff lightly but it's volatile so take care.....
we ourselves teach it as physical medicine and leave the rest to each own soul in faith.....


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Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."


Edited by curenado (07/16/03 01:48 PM)


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Re: Praise the Lord [Re: curenado]
    #1721687 - 07/16/03 03:30 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Jesus has to be more than "a good man." He is the Son of God. He fulfilled all of the prophecies of the Old Testament. Jesus was more than a spiritual leader. He himself said, "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life." John 3:14-15
How could Jesus be "enlightened," if what he said about himself is false? Jesus said he was the Son of God, if he lied about that, then his other sayings must be false as well. So if he lied about everything, then he died for a cause he knew was false.


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Re: Praise the Lord [Re: Funguy]
    #1721721 - 07/16/03 03:44 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

<<Jesus has to be more than "a good man." He is the Son of God. He fulfilled all of the prophecies of the Old Testament. Jesus was more than a spiritual leader. He himself said, "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life." John 3:14-15>>

If somebody said different it wasn't me  :laugh:  :wink: :lol: 


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Re: Praise the Lord [Re: curenado]
    #1721725 - 07/16/03 03:45 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

This hasn't been such a bad thread huh?


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Re: Praise the Lord [Re: curenado]
    #1723052 - 07/16/03 11:02 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Nope, not bad at all. Those who have eyes to read, let them read... I hope all of you will eventually come to know Christ as your true personal savior. I know most of you don't agree with me, but I will continue to show love and patience to you. Even if you don't believe in him, God still loves you and wants to be with you...


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Re: Praise the Lord [Re: Funguy]
    #1723187 - 07/16/03 11:52 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

so the only pre-requisite for getting into heaven is believing?

what if a child is raised as a athiest from athiest parents, and was subject to the same indoctrination as you have (according to your stories about jesus from your mother), would this person burn in the hell for eternity?


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Re: Praise the Lord [Re: ]
    #1723465 - 07/17/03 01:04 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

He doesn't get to pick that dude, God does.  :smile:  I think those bases are covered if you check the book - but to be christian is not to have a monopoly on what it is to be "kalos" (a fine and handsome son - something fine in it's very nature) or "kalokagatia" (high moral excellence -  a logic of beauty and good will)

....if one has a monopoly on the above things then one is of ideal christian values - but the doctrine itself can't put that in a person any more than any doctrine can, and "God knows his own" worldwide......


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Re: Praise the Lord [Re: Funguy]
    #1723549 - 07/17/03 01:33 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Jesus said he was the Son of God, if he lied about that, then his other sayings must be false as well. So if he lied about everything, then he died for a cause he knew was false.




Why do you draw that conclusion? If I say 2+2=5 and 1+1=2, does the falsity of the first statement make the second statement false also? Does the truth value of any of the statements change if I also add the statement "I am the Son of God"?


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: trendal]
    #1723815 - 07/17/03 03:19 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Trendal.. damn the catholics.. that is what I have to say :smile:

I was raised catholic as well, catholic school, fat nun... the whole shebang.  Then my mom go divorced and remarried and presto wammo.. we were no longer welcome to recieve the body of Christ.

I tried baptist, methodist, nondenominational, wicca, church of  the nazarene... I could go on and on.  But none of them were right.  None of them reconciled with my perception of God.  They all preached of this angry wrathful God.. not the loving presence I had felt.

I know a man who speaks with God.. not just to him.  Im extraordinarily jealous and amazed that he has never tried to convert me :smile:  However, his wife did give me a tip and it has done more for me then I thought possible.  Write down your prayers, God knows our hearts.. and also write down the date that you begin your conversation with God on the subject.  You should see some results rather quickly. 

I think that most of the time God answers us in ways that we dont understand or cant understand, but to see a book with a date that you began praying on a topic and actual resolutions.. I mean, and you would be amazed at the percentage of resolution you actually get.. I think it's pretty powerful and shows us that God is definately listening.


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: ]
    #1723830 - 07/17/03 03:28 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Morrowind, actually.. Jesus said, "Go ye unto all nations and preach the Gospel"

What you quoted may be in the bible, but Id love to see the related scripture where it says not to let your voices testify.



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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: LOBO]
    #1723843 - 07/17/03 03:38 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"Enter started this topic stating that the only one that saves is Jesus bla bla bla."

blah blah blah? I mean, you dont seem to have that great of an attitude towards his beliefs either.

"Basically he said to all of us that we are all wrong and that all our beliefs are incorrect."

Actually, that is how you percieved what he said. He never said that you were wrong and actually says to let mankind reap what it sows.

"Is the arrogance that most Christians express in their blind fanaticism that shows their lack of understanding and spirituality"
I dont know what kind of Christians you are speaking of because just beacuse you go to church doesnt make you a christian..

"You don?t see Jew?s trying to convince you, or Hindus, Buddhists not even Muslims."
Whoa there. You must not get out a heck of alot. Although I havent had any Hindus try to convince me.. I have had Buddhists and Muslims preach their beliefs. Check the speaking tour at your local college and see if you can find any Buddist transcendental meditations or discussions on spirituality. Given, Im in Cali.. but my local college has 2 next month. Then, step on a plane over to the middle east.. try bahrain, its the only one I can speak directly on.. see if anyone speaks to you about their faith.

"But you will always find a Christian trying to force the ?Truth? into you
It will be very different if they will say "In my opinion" or "the one that saved me" was Jesus."
But see, to a Christian, these things are not opinion, they arent even truth as much as fact.

"If you want to see a true Christian look at the life Madre Theresa, she did not have to preach or convince you she lived that path of a Christian."
There are many people who are good christians walking in your community.



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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: LOBO]
    #1723878 - 07/17/03 04:11 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"If you think that the basis of Christianity is to convert to ?Christ?.
Well my friend in my humble opinion you miss by a long shot what the skinny guy was trying to teach.
He was teaching about love and compassion, something very absent in the words and actions or Christians these days. "

I used to have very similar opinions. But to a Christian to understand that love, to understand our lives.. we must come to know Christ. I think about all of the things that Ive done in my life. All of the mistakes and lies. All of the hurts and bad thought and deeds and it's hard to strive to this goal of heaven.. I mean, Im flawed. I fucked up.. not once, but a whole bunch of times. So it's always been easy for me to say. I believe in something.. but christianity isnt it. Its been easy to be a proud person and not acknowledge that Im completely and utterly flawed. To maintain a semblance of control. But Christianity teaches us to look at our worst and our best.. it teaches me that even though I messed a whole bunch of stuff up in my life.. even when I cant love myself... God does. He sent his son to die on a cross for our sins.. a physical presentation of his love for us. Even if I fall short of what all the bible thumpers at my local congregation regurgitate from the bible without understanding.. it does not matter because as long as I accept God's love I am saved.. You cannot be a christian without accepting christ and the deeper meaning of the whole action, the whole sacrifice.

And you are completely right. Alot of people dont walk the walk.. but they do talk the talk.. and it is absolutely infuriating. I dislike being grouped together with those people.. I hate that they call themselves christians. But dont be fooled. They arent.. no matter how much easier it would make it on you for them to be christians, because then they give voice to every reason that you renounce them.

You ask how much humanity has changed in 2000 years... have you looked out your window lately? Humanity has changed a great deal.

And yes, true converts to christianity who believe in christ have contributed love to this world. So have the smallest to the greatest of any "name" or label.

I have my own opinions on GWB. I personally do not feel that he is a christian. He may be a product of the manufactured christianity that we see today, but I dont believe that he is a true christian. This is always a connundrum for me because Im not supposed to judge. But everything happens for a reason and I dont pretend to have it all figured out.

Lumping the actions of man with the will of God isnt going to get you any closer to understanding. Man persecutes in this life. God's judgement comes later. Trying to find God is definately not a crime and ethogens have helped me find God in ways that no bible or person has ever been able to do.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But it is always helpful if you actually make an attempt to understand what something really is.. not to judge it by someone else's example of it.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: fivepointer]
    #1723890 - 07/17/03 04:23 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

The Rastafarians often cite some passages that encourage drug use:

". . . thou shalt eat the herb of the field " (Genesis 3:18)

". . . eat every herb of the land " (Exodus 10:12)


"Better is a dinner of herb where love is, than a stalled ox and hatred therewith" (Proverbs 15:17)

And most importantly:
Psalms 104:14, "He causeth the grass for the cattle, and herb for the service of man".


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Re: Praise the Lord [Re: ]
    #1723897 - 07/17/03 04:31 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

The bible says that you will know about God from nature and the world around you..

So yeah, if the kid chooses not to believe then they face the judgement of God.

This is always a really hard arguement for me. It's hard for me to believe that smiling happy buddhists arent getting into heaven because they dont believe in jesus. But when the tribulation comes I wonder what their feelings will be then.


A site that may be worth checking out for some. www.liberalslikechrist.com



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I perceive your essence; and we're not dissimilar [Re: Anno]
    #1724070 - 07/17/03 07:05 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: No one is listening to me as usual [Re: Sclorch]
    #1724872 - 07/17/03 03:30 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Being is the Light that illuminates the flux of endless Becoming. Being precedes Becoming. Essence precedes Existence. I'm certain you will disagree :smile:


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Re: No one is listening to me as usual [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1728716 - 07/18/03 10:03 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

One of our professors in Auckland has boiled over (again) and it was so good I wanted to throw it in this thread owing to the folks watching.
Bear in mind this gentleman is more aborigine than anything else and his reps had to convince him to let the school refer to him as a professor:
_________________________________________
Traditional Healing to the Fore!

The beacon has been fired on the mountain top.

Soon it will catch..... mycelium like .... and spread to monastries of every tradition, and other beacons will be lit by the guardians of the sacred fire.

A global network, facilitated by the internet will be the nervous system of this emerging brotherhood. And not a moment too soon.

Bridges to be built, and beacons kept burning in vigil ..... Barefoot  Doctors to be trained ....... Clinics and beds to be made ready.

The great Paracelsus, that Prince of natural medicine said ..... The highest form of medicine is love ...... It  is at the monastries that we may see that sky blue cloak edged in white and gold. ...... Ancient, yet pristine, for it is woven by the heart.

In the times of the great darkness that lay across Europe in the dark ages, it was to the monastries, that the sacred fire was taken and tended for long years, the wick trimmed by service and devotion, and nutured with the sweet music of the soul.

The Pharmaceutical Junta, and their hangers on, are to be arraigned before the International Court of Justice at the Hague. They have a case to answer to the people of the world. The charge is Genocide !

Lay down your armour of cynicism for it is rusty and full of holes. No man may with importunity, deny the foundations of their very soul. Spirituality transcends sectarianism .... it is as Dr Rudolph Steiner said ..... The laboratory table must once again become an altar. When things are done in love, it is a spiritual act.

"We must stop experimenting on children, and the sick, and the elderly, the poor in Africa, and worst of all ..... those that the system has sentenced as insane. To try to class, or even view such abominations as normal  ..... is an insanity itself.

"All the remedies are on earth but we lack the men to gather them. They are ready to be harvested, but the reapers have not come. But one day the reapers of the right remedies shall come.

Blessed and thrice blessed is the physician who recognizes the Medicines in their living action, who knows how to obtain them and who knows that they are not dead. For there are many medicines in the world which are already dead".
Paracelsus.

Be prepared for the time that is dawning, maybe not in my life time or yours, but certainly in the lives of our children.

Ivor Hughes
www.herbdatanz.com
________________________________________

I get to work with this guy........
:cool: :rolleyes: :grin:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1728866 - 07/18/03 11:11 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Are you sure you're not referring to Frank Zappa's '200 Motels' ?


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1728902 - 07/18/03 11:28 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

?


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1729605 - 07/19/03 06:41 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: No one is listening to me as usual [Re: World Spirit]
    #1729911 - 07/19/03 12:45 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Hey guess what. God is a figment of your imagination.


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Re: No one is listening to me as usual [Re: ]
    #1730438 - 07/19/03 05:25 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: No one is listening to me as usual [Re: World Spirit]
    #1730970 - 07/19/03 10:17 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I'm here to help.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Praise the Lord [Re: Funguy]
    #1731166 - 07/19/03 11:46 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Funguy said:
Jesus has to be more than "a good man." He is the Son of God. He fulfilled all of the prophecies of the Old Testament. Jesus was more than a spiritual leader. He himself said, "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life." John 3:14-15
How could Jesus be "enlightened," if what he said about himself is false? Jesus said he was the Son of God, if he lied about that, then his other sayings must be false as well. So if he lied about everything, then he died for a cause he knew was false.




I remember, earlier on in this drug on and on and on post, that someone was wondering why Christians were always attacked in this forum, why we do not accept what they say and dismiss it so easily.
As this is the Spirituality and Philosophy section of the damn Shroomery, people here are bound to be of an open-minded nature. We sit back, and we actually consider our beliefs, what is happening in the world around us. Hidden meanings are made more apparent to us, truths seem to be easier to find. A person in a basement is going to get quite a different view of the world from someone on a mountain.
Anyways, posts like this stick out like a sore thumb, and its no wonder why people get dogged for making them. Does this seem open-minded, to you, this post? Anyone? I mean, let's say that Jesus was here. Everything that suspossedly happened did, in fact, happen. Hell, we'll even forget the fact that most (probably all) of what he said was locked in metaphors, metaphors so simple that the meaning should be obvious to anyone taking them as they were.
A book was written about all of this, and we have it here, creating all this massive confusion. To believe in any of it, you have to assume that what happened is true, that someone did not construct the book (or at least massively change the book to use it to control people). You have to ASSUME. And that's quite the assumption to make. Myself, I'd rather find the meaning that is hidden away in the book, and find ways to use it in my life, rather than take it all at face value, "know" that it is the Way, and then tell everyone that they are missing out.
I don't know, but what I do know is that I don't preach to people, and tell people that they can know it is true because either: "I say it is true", "You know it is true", or "This person says that it is true." My favorite (threaten and scare people, and then control them...seems the media has picked up on this one), the world-renowned "It is true, and if you don't believe in it, you will die and go to Hell." No one wants to go to Hell for Eternity, do they? They'd rather send their money to the Christians on the T.V.
So, in closing, "Everyone send me lots of money, PM me for my address, or you will be condemned to Hell. How do I know? SOMEONE TOLD ME! *manical laughter*
Peace.


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineLikwidDrawp
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Re: Praise the Lord [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1731512 - 07/20/03 02:28 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I remember how my mom used to use relgion as a cop out for stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars... She still begs forgiveness to this day at her local pedo-thedral. She thinks she is saved, and her aura is dark and probably will be for the rest of her sad life. Do you think since I only ask my own inner being for forgiveness that she is forgiven and I am not?

Sorry for not being Christian.


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1731528 - 07/20/03 02:34 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

How about this: God exists in all things. We are all a part of it. God is expressed through creation and love. We create, we love. We are God. Hello aspect of divine creation, nice to meet you.


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OfflineLikwidDrawp
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Shroomism]
    #1731558 - 07/20/03 02:48 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Shroomism doesn't beat around the bush. You took thought patern from my head and placed in infront of me. However, most people are not aware of this and feel that there is only one way to be *saved* from ourselves. *laughs*
All one can do is try to understand how they think that, maybe give them something to consider on a friendly note. No way to change anyones thinking, no reason to try and force it. I apologize for my previus post that could have been viewed as "attacking".


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: LikwidDrawp]
    #1731567 - 07/20/03 02:52 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

People will think what they want to think, and they will believe what they want to believe, and you can't change it. You can, however, show them alternative viewpoints which they can consider.


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Shroomism]
    #1731634 - 07/20/03 03:21 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Hello aspect of divine creation, nice to meet you.



Namaste to you too, friend.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1731641 - 07/20/03 03:26 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Two cents short of a dollar.

May ignorance be faith, and faith be ignorant.

Fear not the truth, let us shine in the light of what other tells us to believe :wink:

Blessed be that which tells us what to do, fear those who believe not in us and fear that they challenge our faith with logic.

Faith is fear, you are afraid.

BTW, I'm being sarcastic. 


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Thor]
    #1731648 - 07/20/03 03:30 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Beautifully constructed with poetry, Thor.


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Shroomism]
    #1731839 - 07/20/03 06:38 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Thor]
    #1731847 - 07/20/03 06:46 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1731971 - 07/20/03 11:18 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

The role of faith in the Christian

Faith does not merit salvation. Faith only observes the effects of salvation. Human merits do not play any role in finding favor with God.

Now wait a minute, are you saying I am totally at the mercy of God and there is nothing I can do about it?

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

This totally blows away the false notion that man can "decide" and by "deciding" find favor. Man only finds favor if God himself has decided to show favor, and this according to His purposes.

So are you saying He has decided to show favor to some and not others?

Yes.

The statement that "Jesus loves you" is false. Jesus loves those who were named and given to Him in the everlasting covenant of redemption. Those not named in this covenant abide in wrath and will exist forevermore under wrath, both in body and in soul.

The fact that Jesus would come under wrath for the sins of His people is a demonstration of the love of God for them. Love is not shown on the basis of forseen faith, goodness or any other merit. Love is shown to the ungodly, the sinners, the wretched, the undone not to those who bring works of their own righteousness such as "my faith", "my repentance", "my goodness" or "my preserverance".

The only righteousness God is pleased with is the righteousness of His dear Son, who satisfied the broken law by coming under divine wrath and obeying every precept perfectly for His people.

The Spirit applies the Word to the heart of the elect, in time, by convicting of sinnership, righteousness and judgment and causes conversion, faith, obediance, and reveals the hidden truths in the Word.



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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Grav]
    #1732027 - 07/20/03 11:54 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

There are billions of people who would disagree with your second statement, and pity you for your first.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: fivepointer]
    #1732146 - 07/20/03 01:28 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Substances can be considered to be 'drugs,' which is a perjorative term, or they can be considered to be 'medicine,' as in Huxley's term "Moksha [Liberation isn Sanskrit] Medicine," or as the Native American Church employs Peyote buttons as the Eucharistic Body of Christ. Now, you might belong to a church that employs half-inch squares of Wonder Bread and Welch's grape juice, or you might belong (unlikely) to the RC church which uses specially prepared unleavened bread, or you may belong to an Orthodox church (also unlikely) that uses leavened bread (in their case leaven is not equated with evil, but with Bread thar 'Rises' as in Ascension. Different valence of symbolism). Some people, trying to synthesize an equally valuable substance, may employ Psilocybe Mushroom Caps, for example, as the Body of Christ.

The substance called wine, contains the psychoactive ethyl alcohol (during the time of Jesus, Greek wines contained herbal psychoactives that sometimes had to be diluted 20:1 with water, or they could be fatal). For some people, the use of wine is strictly profane - for mere pleasure of the palate, relaxation, or downright inebriation. That SAME bottle can be consecrated to a Sacred use. The same thing with Peyote or Mushrooms. The alteration in consciousness can "occasion" (Huston Smith) genuine religious experience, the proof of which is the spiritual fruit that such an experience produces in the years to come, or the SAME substance can be [ab]used for merely pedestrian, mundane, profane use.

Related to the above Sacred-profane dichotomy, and relevant to your uncritical one-dimensional evaluation of phenomena, is hypnosis. Hypnosis, similar to drugs, can be used for entertainment, or it can be used to heal. I am a Diplomate in Clinical Hypnotherapy, and have used it exclusively, since 1989, as part of psychotherapy [intimate care of the soul]. It is not magickal, neither is it demonic - nor can it be, if you know anything about it. It cannot be used to make someone violate their own morals. I have also seen an 'X-rated' hypnotist use willing subjects in embarrassing stage shows.

Now you may remain in your state of adament denial for as long as you live. You may maintain the same party-line based on your interpretation of Paul - a man like you and me, except for reportedly having been a murderer at one time, which I believe you are all too willing to overlook in light of his otherwise great reputation in the eyes of Christendom. You are probably not a Christian Scientist, who will deny material medicine for yourself, and perhaps even allow a child to die because it's the 'Will of God.' Medicine is pharmakeia, is it not? Well, if it is, then medicine=pharmaceuticals=sorcery=evil. Ever been to a physician? That would be, a 'medicine man.' A medicine man is, and has always been a 'shaman,' a 'magician/magus/mage,' a witch doctor/witch/sorcerer - someone with knowledge of Nature, of herbs, teas, baths, even trephining the skull (if even for the wrong reason, often worked and cured the patient). Add hypocrisy to your own laundry list.

It is easy to point a finger of self-righteous condemnation when one has little grasp of Scriptures other than as a bludgeon in the service of the ego. Equally, a limited knowledge of other knowledge bases, such as the use of psychoactives in the service of God, since time immemorial. Tell me not that people didn't drink well at the time of Jesus, that the first 'miracle' at the wedding at Cana wasn't to 'turn water into wine' - two symbolic Lunar and Solar elements that would later issue from the pericardium of Jesus's heart at the thrust of Longinus's spear. But besides that, it was wine, not grape juice. I come from a Jewish upbringing - later a Jewish Christian. If you know anything about the Passover Seder, you'd know that since before the time of Jesus, one downed a whole cup of wine between readings from the Haggadah (we tooks sips in my family). One got high my man, for centuries, to celebrate Liberation from bondage, according to the myths and symbolism of the Old Testament. Alcoholism is minimal among Jews, BTW.

Salvation history continues, and so does the growth of faith and changes in ritual and practices. A Christian who takes Psychedelics [psyche/soul-manifesting] takes a Christian's trip. Did not the Holy Annointing oil in Exodus 30:22-33 contain Calamus [Acorus Calamus] (KJV), or "fragrant cane" (NIV)? Well, the oil is called holy and sacred in both versions not only because it was consecrated to the LORD, but because this plant (which I have some experience with) contains TMA, a powerful psychedelic precursor to Mescaline. To cover oneself with this oil would result in a transdermal dosage of a powerful catecholamine psychedelic. 'Peak's Commentary on the Bible' deleted this singular ingredient - I wonder why.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1732183 - 07/20/03 01:54 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enter said:
Quote:

Thor said:
Two cents short of a dollar.

May ignorance be faith, and faith be ignorant.

Fear not the truth, let us shine in the light of what other tells us to believe :wink:

Blessed be that which tells us what to do, fear those who believe not in us and fear that they challenge our faith with logic.

Faith is fear, you are afraid.

BTW, I'm being sarcastic. 




I knew you'd be back, silly one.(!)  :laugh: :sun: :heart:
It's good to see you around.
As for the faith and fear: Faith is an essential and fundamental requirement for all decisions, whether they be insignificant or highly religious. When you leave for work with only 17 minutes before your boss expects you there, you are demonstrating faith in your knowledge of traffic, faith in your car, faith in your legs walking, faith that weather or accidents won't slow you down, etc.
When it comes down to religion, faith becomes an aspect to fill in what is otherwise ineffable and unproveable. We are able to debate religious matters so frequently because they are presently too difficult to grasp, communicate, prove, and persuade (all people that is).
My faith is not based out of childish imagination.
My faith is not based on being a pansie.
My faith exists because I know the Holy Spirit. By the way, this is the same Holy Spirit that created the Earth and the Universe, mushrooms and cannabis, tomatoes and trees, the potential for good and the potential for harm.

Knock, knock, Neo.  :alert: :sun: 




Just teasing ya man :wink:

Just my way of dropping by to say hello.


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: fivepointer]
    #1732728 - 07/20/03 05:57 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1732740 - 07/20/03 06:02 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I feel cleansed, I want in... but wait can my cat come to heaven aswell, and what about my ethnic homosexual housemaid? God doesn't mind the odd minority now does he?


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1732748 - 07/20/03 06:04 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1732751 - 07/20/03 06:04 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

How could god love the world so much that he would (for no reason but for humanity) punish his own son? Well, usually I dont express my love to everyone else by beating my son with a stick and putting him through an agonizing death.

As far as the words I have chosen I have chosen to accept what visions have brought me, as they have their own significance for my own reality. Everyone has their beliefs. I happen to believe that the Bible and every version of it (wonder how there got to be so many) was re-written and to read and actually believe it is like obtaining morals and reasoning for life from Alice and Wonderland.

Enter, you are entirely correct on the note of it being to dangerous to go into a reputable church, as I prefer to do the math at home. I think everyone should figure out what reality it for themselves.. As it appears most of us have.


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: LikwidDrawp]
    #1732760 - 07/20/03 06:07 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Now its just you keep referring to that bastard book, I admire your "faith" but it seems so outlandish to me to keep quoting the bloody bible


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1732781 - 07/20/03 06:11 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1732794 - 07/20/03 06:16 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

All we can do is hope that christianity eventually dies out like the religions of the inca's and ancient greeks, sadly its not going to happen in my lifetime.......


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1732832 - 07/20/03 06:40 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1732843 - 07/20/03 06:43 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

LOL, Im not condeming you, im condeming an evil religion not the people that choose to follow it....


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1732856 - 07/20/03 06:48 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1732873 - 07/20/03 06:55 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

How about not answering my post with mindless babble... And stop implying I hate people, I hate christianity thats all... I would worship a dustbin if I saw fit, but you choose to follow something that has caused so much shit and is built on something your familiar with.... mindless babble


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1732933 - 07/20/03 07:23 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

As far as the religion of the ancient Incas... There was an evil, evil man who lived named Cortez. He indoctrinated the Incas with Catholosism, as well as many other nations that now typically follow Christ rather than what their heritage did. He also killed many who would not follow, along with many that would follow but he killed them thus disallowing them from being shown the "light" of Christ. Correct me if I'm wrong but has anyone who truly follows love and peace killed and forced relgion upon people? I havent experienced the "light" from very many Christ followers but I have experienced this from them.
-An acute loss of reasoning

I'm not saying all relgion is bad because some bastard named Cortez inflicted pain and evil upon people in Christs name...

But those who have dabbled in multiple dimensions do not pay attention to meaningless rhetoric.


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1732940 - 07/20/03 07:30 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1732983 - 07/20/03 07:56 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Enter quotes-
"Isaiah 53:1
Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price."

The address is to the thirsty. Those who thirst after righteousness, those who are heavy laden with sin, those who are being convicted of their lost estate and utter wretchedness. These are the ones who come without money or price, with nothing. They don't come with "decisions", good works, they come heavy laden, broken, and ruined.

Matthew 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

No man of himself comes thirsty, man is a spiritual corpse. Only the work of the Holy Spirit can give the thirst and make a person see perfect righteousness verses his total ruin. Each one of the elect will be taught by the supernatural power of the Spirit of sin, righteousness and judgment.


Enter writes-
"Perhaps you have disregarded John's words and chosen another's. Remember this: "God loved the world so much that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him will have eternal life."
That's an open invitation."

We know that by eternal decree in the covenant of redemption God loves His people and them alone. This verse is showing that out of every tribe, nation and tounge - not just the Jews - a people will be brought in, the "world".

Millions have lived and died before Christ came, the gospel was not even sent to them, they had no salvation, wrath abides on them. Since all events are ordered by divine purpose how does a universalist reconcile this obvious truth?

There is no way that the gospel of grace will permit human merits (such as forseen faith) to come in. Salvation is entirely the perfect and sole work of Jesus Christ, that no man can boast.






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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: fivepointer]
    #1733053 - 07/20/03 08:29 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I havent thrown all of the Christians in a "box"
I'm just saying that it is beyond most Christians actual will when they are indoctrinated at a young age... We can thank those who have imposed religion on our ancestors for that. Just a thought. Although I'm sure there are plenty of Christians that are just that by their entire choice. I have obtained my point of view from being indocrinated at a young age. Since then I have studied (near) every relgion, Arcadian tablets(which have many of the same bible stories) and lots of mythology. Taking these into consideration I have found we are all God. God is not seperate from us.

Comments?


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: fivepointer]
    #1733060 - 07/20/03 08:31 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I haveth writteneth in a rewritteneth book to showwth and tryeth to conveyeth to all of thou's questions in thiseth mosteth likely rewritteneth passage.


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: LikwidDrawp]
    #1733173 - 07/20/03 09:46 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LikwidDrawp said:
How could god love the world so much that he would (for no reason but for humanity) punish his own son? Well, usually I dont express my love to everyone else by beating my son with a stick and putting him through an agonizing death.





But that is what Christ came to do. He knew he would have to die for the sins of everyone. We should have been in Christ' place, but God, and Christ loved us enough to die for us. Christ is the fulfillment of Jewish scripture. But Christ didn't just die, he rose again, triumphant over death. That is the only requirement for Christianity, to believe that Christ died for you, and rose again.


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Funguy]
    #1733383 - 07/20/03 11:33 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

i really can't understand why he dying is a big deal at all.

let me get this straight....

he is the "son" of the father, so he is guaranteed a great place in heaven. why would he really care about suffering on the cross for a couple days when he knows he will live eternally in heaven? for the rest of us poor folks, we must suffer our entire lives not knowing what will happen to us when we die.



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: fivepointer]
    #1733604 - 07/21/03 12:50 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Forget about verses like Luke 16: 19-31, or Romans 4:3 "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Your doctrine that denies salvation to any human before the appearance of Y'shua ben Miriam is a LIE. It is behind every post-Y'shua sentiment of antisemitism. Salvation is of the Jews. Y'shua was a Jew, and speaking OF Jews when it is said of Him that 'Those who aren't against us, are for us.' Very liberal, very nice. How typically Jewish!
But what would you know? With your doctrine, ALL Jews must belong to the "synagogue of Satan," except perhaps Y'shua, his Mom and Dad, and his brothers, and of course, His Apostolic friends. Remember the words, "Before Abraham was, 'I AM'"? This meant that Y'shua was identifying Himself with the Divine Name - Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh - ("I will be what I will be," usually mistranslated as "I AM THAT I AM"). God is Eternal; Y'shua was temporal; Christ is a Mystery of both conjoined, but God has always 'saved' His people - long before Y'shua was born.

I recommend that you educate a very distorted doctrine out of your mind. Your god is Moloch-like - a monster. You must be rather young and unlived in life to feel so confidently self-righteous. It sounds like Y'shua remains for you on the level of a Greek Hero, or a role model that a very young person can identify with, feeling pretty sinless yourself, since you haven't experienced much of life's passions yet. I'm tellin' ya man...if you ever begin to experience life as an adult man...it's gonna come as one serious blow to your ego.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: ]
    #1734034 - 07/21/03 04:14 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

i really can't understand why he dying is a big deal at all.




I think there were two historically important things behind this. The first is that crucifixion is an extremely painful way to die: you slowly suffocate while being in constant pain from muscle cramps. It can take several days before you lose consciousness. For Jesus it only took 6 hours on the cross before he was taken down, unconscious and probably dead.

Crucifixions were used when the Romans wanted to intimidate and scare the people, so it must have been very impressive to see someone go along with it instead of talking their way out of it, or walk away before it's too late.

The other thing is that in those days animal sacrifice was common everywhere, except in Buddhism. Today the only major religions in which animal sacrifice is a religious duty are Islam and some Hinduist sects. Two thousand years ago, it was a powerful idea to replace all animal sacrifices with one big final sacrifice where the first-born son of the supreme god was sacrificed. In a mind-set where blood sacrifice is important, this idea is arguably very impressive.


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: fivepointer]
    #1734187 - 07/21/03 06:57 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1734252 - 07/21/03 07:51 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"Let God judge and speak of judgement." Congratulations! Really! Perhaps the most divinely detached staement you have ever made here! How does it feel? I'll raise the next goblet of Merlot in toast to this one! +++Amen+++


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1734260 - 07/21/03 07:57 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1734306 - 07/21/03 08:45 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Why dedicate your life to a conformist religion, to a book that was written by MAN..... Why dedicate your life to something that can never be proven, Why not dedicate your life to helping yourself and others. Why would an omnipotent being with such benovelance condemn people to eternal damnation simply for not following/or believing in him/it?


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1734370 - 07/21/03 09:46 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Biblical or not, it's what one chooses to get behind that matters. I mean, if someone out there, for example, wants to massacre Philistines (though, I don't know where one would find Philistines, except maybe one of the block-headed literal Fundamentalists hunting down anyone named Phil or Phyllis Stine), then there is a major problem.

Jesus went about forgiving and healing. That is the task according to Jesus that brings about the Kingdom of God - in each Compassionate act. Then there are the Paulists. I hesitate to call them Pauline Christians because their faith is modelled after Paul's words primarily, and Paul had a radical misunderstanding about the Kingdom of God, because he wrongly believed that it was going to manifest historically at any moment, instead of recognizing that 'it is spread out upon the Earth, but no one recognizes it.' Well, this too is part of the New Testament - a big part - because Irenaeus and his colleagues decided what Christianity would be like. Then Constantine demanded a unified doctrine, so the Apostle's [Nicean] Creed was made up. Then, instead of being the persecuted, the so-called Christians began their own persecution and judgement. At first mere exclusions, then excommunications and exile, and finally executions. XXXX. Funny how the Latin 'X' is the Greek 'Chi,' the symbol for [Ch]rist. Today, there seems to be more heresy-hunters and judges than in the 3rd century, only today, thank God, all they can do is rant and rave, enter right wing politics, and become televangelists (who seem to have a penchant for embezzlement and young boys).

The irreverent on this forum are merely ignorant, ill-mannered louts, or are themselves the the victims of religious abuse, but, the self-righteous, power-hungry, socially inept, spiritually bereft, Scripture abusing, haters of Human-kind who appear on this sight are worse. BE GONE ! I Know you ! - Wolves in sheep's clothing.

+++ I exorcise you, Most Unclean Spirit! Invading Enemy! All Spirits!...Enemy of the faith! Enemy of the human race!...Twister of Justice!...Inciter of Jealousy! Originator of Greed! Cause of discord!...Retire, therefore, in the name of the + Father, and of the + Son, and of the Holy + Spirit...Amen +++


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: ]
    #1734850 - 07/21/03 02:20 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LoOnEr said:
i really can't understand why he dying is a big deal at all.

let me get this straight....

he is the "son" of the father, so he is guaranteed a great place in heaven. why would he really care about suffering on the cross for a couple days when he knows he will live eternally in heaven? for the rest of us poor folks, we must suffer our entire lives not knowing what will happen to us when we die.






Ah, but Hell is different from the Lake of Fire. Hell is being out of the presence of God. Everyone alive on Earth is in the presence of God, whether they believe in him or not. God is perfect, he cannot stand for sin to be near him. While Jesus was on the cross, God, his father, turned his back on him. This was because the sins of the whole world was put upon Jesus. This meant that Jesus was in Hell while on the cross. But there are also some denominations that believe that Jesus was in Hell for three days until he rose again. But this doesn't explain why he told the other man, "as of this day you will be with me in paradise." Luke 23:43


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Funguy]
    #1735527 - 07/21/03 05:53 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Your description of the Harrowing of Hell, where the Apostle's Creed said "...He descended into Hell...," was a kind of provisional metaphysic that enabled a chance for everyone in Sheol, or Gehenna, or Hell, to hear the Word. In Reality, how could anyone know such a thing? It is an insertion for the intention of creating a doctrine.

Jesus in Hell while ON the cross is something I've never heard before. This was human pain, not Divine Wrath. The insertion of "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?," just so happens to be the first line of the 22nd Psalm. It was Jesus, in prayer, yet praying a Psalm that expressed His abandonment to human death, and more-than-likely a veiling by agony of the Comm[union] He usually experienced with God.

I should point out that 'on the third day,' wasn't anything close to 3 days - from sundown Friday night, to sunup Sunday morning, is at best 1.5 days. There are explanations, but I'll not go there.

As to the promise to the penitant thief - now Here is an important insight into Christian eschatology. Paradise (BTW, the consonants PRDS each stands for a level of spiritual Realty in Jewish mystical thought) indicates a Fully Realized Eschatology such as the one described in the Gospel of Thomas. It is different from the Partially Realized Eschatology that has wrongly been promulgated by practically all of Christendom for two millennia. This means that the Kingdom of God is an ever-present Reality, not IN history, but outside of space-time, in Eternity - and it is available Here and Now in the Eternal Present. The Kingdom did not descend from the Heavens (since spiritual and astronomical were thought to be the same in the 3-tiered cosmology of the 1st century) as Paul preached. It may never 'descend' at any time in an indeterminate future because it is Eternally Present. The life of the flesh veils our perception of it, unless we are granted a Vision of the Resurrected Christ, like Paul. The Resurrected Christ, is the Fulness [Pleroma] of the Godhead - Infinite Light - not an incandescent figure of Jesus-in-the-sky. Paul was clearly wrong and the entire scheme of the Rapture, the Transfiguration of Christians, or their Resurrection at the end of time DOES NOT mean at the end of a linear duration - at a time in the future. The End of Time is Eternity, which is ever-present, omniscient, Here and Now - as it was for Jesus and the thief.


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1735592 - 07/21/03 06:10 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1735694 - 07/21/03 06:34 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

st0nedphucker said:
Why dedicate your life to a conformist religion, to a book that was written by MAN..... Why dedicate your life to something that can never be proven, Why not dedicate your life to helping yourself and others. Why would an omnipotent being with such benovelance condemn people to eternal damnation simply for not following/or believing in him/it?   




Why would an omnipotent being with such benovelance condemn people to eternal damnation simply for not following/or believing in him/it?

He doesn't. People who don't believe in God, in some sense, do not need Him. That doesn't change the tide of the reality of all things, though. God created people to choose Him on their own terms - but why would anyone worship God?  :heart:

 


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Zahid]
    #1736060 - 07/21/03 08:32 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Regardless of what anyone thinks... None of us know the actual truth, if any of us knew truth we wouldnt be debating it. Wouldnt we all like to think that we do know the truth? I have yet to make any conclusion about anything, as everything changes, especially with an open mind. But god being a seperate entity from mankind/nature still sounds rediculous to me.


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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1736165 - 07/21/03 09:24 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enter said:
I did not truly begin to experience God until December of 1996, when a 'season of visitation set in.' I have always been convinced of the existence of God, and I've been someone who prays to God (sometimes frequently, other times quite sporadically).




This is subjective truth. I am not going to get into all of this in THIS thread; however, check out Please tell me there are others like me.. for that whole argument (made mostly by Swami).

I myself, seem to agree with what Markos has been saying, what he says seems to make sense to MY thought collection. My credits to you, Markos.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1736198 - 07/21/03 09:37 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Your description of the Harrowing of Hell, where the Apostle's Creed said "...He descended into Hell...," was a kind of provisional metaphysic that enabled a chance for everyone in Sheol, or Gehenna, or Hell, to hear the Word. In Reality, how could anyone know such a thing? It is an insertion for the intention of creating a doctrine.

Jesus in Hell while ON the cross is something I've never heard before. This was human pain, not Divine Wrath. The insertion of "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?," just so happens to be the first line of the 22nd Psalm. It was Jesus, in prayer, yet praying a Psalm that expressed His abandonment to human death, and more-than-likely a veiling by agony of the Comm[union] He usually experienced with God.

I should point out that 'on the third day,' wasn't anything close to 3 days - from sundown Friday night, to sunup Sunday morning, is at best 1.5 days. There are explanations, but I'll not go there.

As to the promise to the penitant thief - now Here is an important insight into Christian eschatology. Paradise (BTW, the consonants PRDS each stands for a level of spiritual Realty in Jewish mystical thought) indicates a Fully Realized Eschatology such as the one described in the Gospel of Thomas. It is different from the Partially Realized Eschatology that has wrongly been promulgated by practically all of Christendom for two millennia. This means that the Kingdom of God is an ever-present Reality, not IN history, but outside of space-time, in Eternity - and it is available Here and Now in the Eternal Present. The Kingdom did not descend from the Heavens (since spiritual and astronomical were thought to be the same in the 3-tiered cosmology of the 1st century) as Paul preached. It may never 'descend' at any time in an indeterminate future because it is Eternally Present. The life of the flesh veils our perception of it, unless we are granted a Vision of the Resurrected Christ, like Paul. The Resurrected Christ, is the Fulness [Pleroma] of the Godhead - Infinite Light - not an incandescent figure of Jesus-in-the-sky.  Paul was clearly wrong and the entire scheme of the Rapture, the Transfiguration of Christians, or their Resurrection at the end of time DOES NOT mean at the end of a linear duration - at a time in the future. The End of Time is Eternity, which is ever-present, omniscient, Here and Now - as it was for Jesus and the thief. 




Ah, but back in old Jewish times just half a day was considered a whole day.  But then again, why did Jesus resurrect himself after only "three" days, why not the day after his death?  The old Jewish belief is that after the body dies, the spirit remains around the dead person for three days.  That is why Jesus was resurrected after "three" days. 
Normally the crucified are allowed to live for days, suffering a cruel humiliating death (they were naked, not covered with cloth).  However, when Jesus was crucified, the next day was the Special Sabbath, so the "criminals" could not be allowed to hang there.  The two prisoners beside Jesus had their legs broken, so they would suffocate.  But when they went to break Jesus' legs, he was already dead, so they didn't.  Markos, I love reading your posts, and I should start doing more research to back up what I say.  Sadly, I am just a poor college guy spending most of my time studying.  :grin:


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OTD UNDERDOGS

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