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Some Christians and the Atheist
    #777591 -

On Marriage:

The atheist: I get married to fulfill legal and societal obligations.

Some faithful: I get married because it is a holy sacrament and I make this vow before God and man.

The atheist: How come as many Christians as atheists get divorced?

Some faithful: We are not perfect.

The atheist: So then you don't REALLY believe in marriage?


On Health:

The atheist: What does the Bible say about taking care of your body?

Some faithful: It says that the body is the Holy Temple of the spirit and should be treated as a sacred gift.

The atheist: How come there are as many fat, smoking Christians as atheists?

Some faithful: We are not perfect.

The atheist: So then you don't REALLY believe in the sanctity of the body?


On the Ten Commandments:

The atheist: According to what set of rules do you live your life?

Some faithful: The Ten Commandments and the teachings of Jesus.

The atheist: How come there are as many thiefs, murderers, pedophiles, adulterers among Christians as among atheists?

Some faithful: We are not perfect.

The atheist: So then you don't REALLY believe in the Ten Commandments?


On the Redemption:

Some faithful: We would like to save your soul so that you can be like us.

The atheist: How would I be different?

Some faithful: You would be saved!

The atheist: Cool. But I could basically do whatever I want to?

Some faithful: No that would be sin.

The atheist: But you sin...

Some faithful: Yes, but we feel GUILTY afterwards.


A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (07/29/02 08:06 PM)

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #777672 -

streching it swami.
but peace braa.
to me, atheism is a great excuse out of every moral responsibility. but i like to own up to reality. but that's just me you know. i could be wrong.


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #777686 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: World Spirit]
    #777708 -

Oh, the old holier than thou logic, "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven."

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #777714 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: World Spirit]
    #777719 -

I feel your Christian love (guess I struck a nerve).

Edited by Evolving (07/26/02 05:10 AM)

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #777746 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: World Spirit]
    #777768 -

Sorry, when I encounter arrogant statements such as this, "To the unbeliever, there is no atonement. Therefore he/she dies in his/her sins with no truthful hope for a future," it begs an appropriate response.

Basically, from what I gather from your post is that Christianity then boils down to the selfish desire to save your own life (or in your parlance, soul). The primary motivation, regardless of the talk and preaching of selfless love, is essentially based on the primal urge for survival of the self. This makes perfect sense as a motivation, but doesn't explain the dogma.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #777780 -

Apparently, you can't tell the 'sheep' from the 'wolves in sheep's clothing.' Most Americans who are not clearly Jews, Muslims, or any other non-Christian faith, denote themselves as 'Christians,' not as 'Gentiles.' Most people are shallow and lack even rudimentary self-knowledge. It is NOT what people call themselves that defines them, it is their Way of Being.

The author Matthew does make some provision for divorce, but divorce was granted in Judaism. It was the Roman Catholic Church that set the standard for no divorce. "What God has joined, let no man put asunder." God joins two 'souls' who are willing to join. Marriage is a matter of free-will. When I married my ex-wife, she was thinking 'I Do...for as long as it suits me' when she said "I do." Divorce became the only way for me to escape a pathological situation and maintain my mental health and my faith. The ex remains Alcoholic and Borderline Personality Disordered with Antisocial features. Spiritual marriage never occurred, hence divorcement was only a legal procedure.

It is extremely doubtful that gluttonous, orally-addicted individuals are actually Christian. Instead of being sustained by 'spiritual manna,' inner sources of sustenance, they rely on food, drink, smoke and whatever else to comfort and satify their cravings due to inner emptiness. The Holy Spirit is also called the Comforter, because It is a Transcendental 'energy' {Eastern Orthodoxy] that nourishes our consciousness (spirit).

The Decalogue - Ten Commandments as a summary of the Old Testament plus the teachings of Jesus is a funny stereotype of the average American confession of faith. Don't forget the Golden Rule! Okelly-Dokelly!

Christians don't save people, only God saves people. It is just presumption when religious fanatics insist on hammering someone with their private mission to save people. They're just ego-inflated. If the scheme is predestination, than it is already determined who will be saved for Eternal Beatitude.

Instead of joking about the illusions and delusions that go by the name of Christian, why not get down to the Brilliant Singularity that radiates the Truth of the matter? Why not focus on what is Really Real about the Logos of God - this Christ - in one's moment-to-moment awareness? It is far easier for the average 'Christian' to sing hymns of praise about Jesus, than to Think/Feel/Intuit [i.e., experience] Christ with each breath and heartbeat. 'Nope...no time for that...I have important things to do at work today. I gotta wheel and deal; buy and lie; spiel and steal. No time for heightened compassionate awareness til next Sunday at church...'


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #777782 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #777798 -

Swami, I really expected so much more from you. Your caricature of the Christian is known as "poisoning the well". If you are trying to show evidence that some "believers" are not devout, why bother? If you are trying to show there is no difference between some "believers" and some atheists, again, why bother?

What is the point you were trying to make? Without directly stating your reason or the conclusions you draw from your biased dialogue we are left with little to go on.

Of course this always gives you the hiding place of ultraliteralism if one should choose to take your bait and give some meaning to your post. You can always tell us what you didn't say.

But of course you knew that, didn't you?

Cheers,

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #777806 -

Deleted by admin

Edited by enter (07/26/02 06:23 AM)

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #777808 -

What you deign appropriate others do not. I am afraid you are conflating the subjectivity of the matter.

You are correct when you say that some "believers" are inappropriately motivated. But that has little to do with the verity of the truths of sacred texts.

A little ignoratio elenchi, wouldn't you say?

Cheers,

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #777810 -

The atheist: How come as many Christians as atheists get divorced?

The atheist: How come there are as many fat, smoking Christians as atheists?

The atheist: How come there are as many thiefs, murderers, pedophiles, adulterers among Christians as among atheists?

The atheist: How come there are as many thiefs, murderers, pedophiles, adulterers among Christians as among atheists?

Hmm... This atheist sure does like to assume a lot of things.



--------------------
Namaste.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #777821 -

to me, atheism is a great excuse out of every moral responsibility. but i like to own up to reality. but that's just me you know. i could be wrong.

Of course you're wrong

I don't see why so many people think atheists live without morals. Religious people don't have an monopoly on being moral. They just get their morals from a book; I get mine from compassion, empathy and love. Do you really need a religion to make you a friendly, moral person? I like to own up to reality too, and that's why I don't believe in God.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: World Spirit]
    #777824 -

I actually enjoy posts like this because Christians need to have thicker skin than they do.

Damn right!


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #777827 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: World Spirit]
    #777831 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: World Spirit]
    #777852 -

Hi enter,

I have read many of Swami's posts/threads but if he is funny to some that must be a matter of subjectivity as well. I could detect no humor in his post.

I enjoy reading his comments but if I detect the slightest error I will be sure to point it out. As I am sure he would do for me.

I like Swami as well as I know him. In other message boards baiting is the sport of trolls.

Cheers,

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #777857 -

What you deign appropriate others do not.
There seems to be a lot of that going around.

I am afraid you are conflating the subjectivity of the matter.
How so?

You are correct when you say that some "believers" are inappropriately motivated.
I never said their motivation was inappropriate, I stated "This makes perfect sense as a motivation"

But that has little to do with the verity of the truths of sacred texts.
Exactly (" but doesn't explain the dogma").

A little ignoratio elenchi, wouldn't you say?
No I wouldn't, I speak English.


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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #777903 -

Sorry, when I encounter arrogant statements such as this, "To the unbeliever, there is no atonement. Therefore he/she dies in his/her sins with no truthful hope for a future," it begs an appropriate response.

Basically, from what I gather from your post is that Christianity then boils down to the selfish desire to save your own life (or in your parlance, soul). The primary motivation, regardless of the talk and preaching of selfless love, is essentially based on the primal urge for survival of the self. This makes perfect sense as a motivation, but doesn't explain the dogma.


What you deign appropriate others do not.
There seems to be a lot of that going around.

And your point is?

I am afraid you are conflating the subjectivity of the matter.
How so?

Because what you think is an appropriate response is not an appropriate response in the minds of others. This turns upon the how a person views enter's statement. You see it in your own subjective way with the filters or frame of reference that you have. Therefore, others, who have a different set of filters or frames of reference might not consider your comment appropriate or even necessary.

You are correct when you say that some "believers" are inappropriately motivated.
I never said their motivation was inappropriate, I stated "This makes perfect sense as a motivation"

You are good at playing hyper or ultraliteral. Thanks for clearing that up. I don't have the intelligence or the reading comprehension to understand what you wrote. I don't have to explain my sentence to you. You're bright, figure it out.

But that has little to do with the verity of the truths of sacred texts.
Exactly (" but doesn't explain the dogma").

Correct.

A little ignoratio elenchi, wouldn't you say?
No I wouldn't, I speak English.

Really, you don't understand a simple Latin phrase for "missing the point"? I am sorry to hear of your handicap.

Cheers,


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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: World Spirit]
    #777965 -

"and I do believe so, all of us must respond to that Truth."
Truth is not relative to individuals, beliefs are.

"It's about Truth, not survival, although it is also very obvious that a wise man will humble himself to avoid hell at all cost. It makes perfect sense to someone who believes in it."

That and all the Christ post mortem ideas/fantasies/rules/dogmas/wars man made in his name. I believe he was a brilliant philosopher, the original message was pure and meaningful but the religious intitutions worked that message to suit their needs, a true example of mind control and seek of power.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #777989 -

You know Mr. Mushrooms... sometimes I wonder about you.

Do you ever think to yourself "fuck dialectic"?

Hell, I say fuck the rules all the time. I consciously throw 'em right out the proverbial window. But you...
Hey, who cares, right?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: MAIA]
    #777993 -

That and all the Christ post mortem ideas/fantasies/rules/dogmas/wars man made in his name. I believe he was a brilliant philosopher, the original message was pure and meaningful but the religious intitutions worked that message to suit their needs, a true example of mind control and seek of power.



--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: World Spirit]
    #778009 -

Q: How many more decades do you think you can keep living and still believe there is no God keeping all this going?

A: I can probably keep this body living for five to six more decades. Beyond the life of this particular body, I have no idea. Forever? I don't know yet and I won't pretend I do.

Why must it be a God that keeps "all this" going? The inherent properties of matter keep all this going. I don't know how it could possibly NOT keep going.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #778010 -

Because what you think is an appropriate response is not an appropriate response in the minds of others. This turns upon the how a person views enter's statement. You see it in your own subjective way with the filters or frame of reference that you have. Therefore, others, who have a different set of filters or frames of reference might not consider your comment appropriate or even necessary.
This happens with all of us, including you. Oftentimes I encounter cases of 'the pot calling the kettle black." Why are my responses not approrpriate but those of supposed Christians or youself are not subject to the same standard? (If they are, forgive me for assuming otherwise.)


You are good at playing hyper or ultraliteral. Thanks for clearing that up. I don't have the intelligence or the reading comprehension to understand what you wrote.
It's not play, I tend to state things the way I want them read. There usually isn't any need to read into them. Don't be so hard on yourself, just read the words as they're written.


Really, you don't understand a simple Latin phrase for "missing the point"? I am sorry to hear of your handicap.
This ties in nicely with your first statements which I highlighted. Not understanding Latin has never been a handicap. However, choosing uncommonly used foreign words to express an idea is a handicap to communication. (Frame of reference - English language website, Latin is not a language of common communication in any country that I'm aware of)


Cheers


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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #778012 -

Christianity then boils down to the selfish desire to save your own life (or in your parlance, soul). The primary motivation, regardless of the talk and preaching of selfless love, is essentially based on the primal urge for survival of the self. This makes perfect sense as a motivation, but doesn't explain the dogma.

The same "motivation" to save souls killed millions of native americans, enslaved some more africans, chased Jews and burned their fellow "brothers". I will really have fear of hell if i believe in that "motivation", if there's something like heaven it must be already full of your "saved" souls.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: World Spirit]
    #778068 -

It makes perfect sense to someone who believes in it.

the same could be said for all delusions.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Sclorch]
    #778098 -

Sclorch, sometimes I wonder about myself too. It's called introspection.

Do you ever think to yourself "fuck dialectic"?

What, and give up tendencious polemic? What fun would that be?

I like to keep my proverbial ducks in a row when I am having a dialogue about important philosophical assumptions.

But thanks for wondering. Ya know, wondering is probably the best thing. It means that one does not know about a given thing.

I try not to be abstruse or obtuse but sometimes I am. I am only human. I hope that I am not as enigmatic to some as Swami is.

Cheers,

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #778118 -

A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.

So, let me make sure I have this right.........



--------------------
Namaste.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #778122 -

Really, you don't understand a simple Latin phrase for "missing the point"? I am sorry to hear of your handicap.

"This ties in nicely with your first statements which I highlighted. Not understanding Latin has never been a handicap. However, choosing uncommonly used foreign words to express an idea is a handicap to communication. (Frame of reference - English language website, Latin is not a language of common communication in any country that I'm aware of)"

I don't know that particular Latin phrase either and I don't think I have a handicap.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #778168 -

I find it hard to communicate with you. It seems as if your perceptual filter is clogged or something. You seem to misunderstand what I am saying at every turn. Now, normally, I would not expect a person to understand a few of the things I write but you are intelligent, or so I perceive, which makes you as enigmatic as others might perceive me to be. That being the case any continued dialogue between us is apt to be a lesson in frustration. I will attempt one more time to clarify the matter and then let it go.

Here goes:

Because what you think is an appropriate response is not an appropriate response in the minds of others. This turns upon the how a person views enter's statement. You see it in your own subjective way with the filters or frame of reference that you have. Therefore, others, who have a different set of filters or frames of reference might not consider your comment appropriate or even necessary.

This happens with all of us, including you. Oftentimes I encounter cases of 'the pot calling the kettle black." Why are my responses not approrpriate but those of supposed Christians or youself are not subject to the same standard? (If they are, forgive me for assuming otherwise.)

My point is that you find your comment appropriate and others do not. I did not say that others comments were appropriate and your weren't. If you are as literal as you seem to be at times this could not have possbily escaped you. I, for one, would not use the reason, "My comments were appropriate" when discussing such a matter because that is only my opinion, nothing more and nothing less.

You are good at playing hyper or ultraliteral. Thanks for clearing that up. I don't have the intelligence or the reading comprehension to understand what you wrote.

It's not play, I tend to state things the way I want them read. There usually isn't any need to read into them. Don't be so hard on yourself, just read the words as they're written.

Do you tend to understand things the way you want them to be also? My meaning was clear. I was implying that since Christians, by their own tenets, are supposed to be selfless, according to the Bible, then any person claiming to be a Christian because they are selfishly motivated, or are in fact selfishly motivated because they are afraid of judgement, is hypocritical. And that if the Bible is true then a person should not be selfishly motivated but should love God for Himself and not for a reward or as escape from hell. The Ancient Hebrews did not believe in an afterlife. They followed God because they loved Him, not because of what He would do for them. To further clarify this, I am not saying that all Ancient Hebrews did this but that some of them did.

Really, you don't understand a simple Latin phrase for "missing the point"? I am sorry to hear of your handicap.

This ties in nicely with your first statements which I highlighted. Not understanding Latin has never been a handicap. However, choosing uncommonly used foreign words to express an idea is a handicap to communication. (Frame of reference - English language website, Latin is not a language of common communication in any country that I'm aware of)

If a person is involved in a logical argument and they do not understand a few phrases in Latin it is indeed a handicap. Have you ever heard of the phrase, "ad hominem"? If I were presented with a phrase from an intelligent person in a philosophical or religious discussion I would look it up and increase the knowledge that I have. You chose not to do that.

Most of what you say has a lot of subjectivity in it, and no, this is not the case for everyone. You may not be able to understand that but it would take far to much time to explain it any further.

You are hyperliteral in the one moment and then able to perceive subtle differences in meaning in the next. This is confusing and does further obfucate the issue. If that is what you are attempting you have done well.

Cheers,


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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #778252 -

Again I wonder.

As apt as you are at dissection, kind sir, would you tell me why one side recieves more attention than the other? (you're smart, don't make me restate item-by-item, plus you figured this post was directed at you)

I just thought dialecticians were inherently unbiased.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Sclorch]
    #778311 -

The reason I place my emphasis on the side that I do has to do with my own inherent bias. I could just as easily emphasize the other side but chose not to because I get a little edgy when the "true believers" in science reveal their ignorance of philosophical inquiry by bashing Christians just because they are easy to bash. Or so they think.

It is the perceived hubris of the scientific community that rubs me a little raw I guess. Most Christians are complete buffoons but I do not spend the necessary energy trying to disabuse them of their false notions. I do not take pride in exposing fools or jousting with lesser minds. I am not interested in such a banal sport. For me, it is more interesting to dialogue with peers, of which you, Swami, and Evolving seem to be. Of course that is just my subjective opinion of you.

All I know is this; I know a lot about a lot of things but I know very little for certain. As long as the facts keep coming in I shall have to revise what I think and as long as that is the case I will remain a true skeptic. A true skeptic is skeptical about all things including the scientific method.

There is something on my mind though and perhaps I should start a new thread about it.

What exactly is the difference between metaphysical naturalism and methodolgical naturalism?

It seems to me that there really isn't any difference at all and the attempt to show there is is only a ruse for the weak-minded to conceive.

Cheers,

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Sclorch]
    #778318 -

wow, popular thread. i left this morning to go trip k with friends, come back and there's ten billions replies.
i think i have a thing for evolving. but not to be judgemental or anything. and it's not an insult, so don't take it so my braa...he who is estranged seeks pretexts to break out against all sound judgment.
and this is for the rest of you who are so intent on getting YOUR opinion out first and foremost. ...a fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion. take it as you may. not meant to insult my braa's. before destruction, a man's heart is haughty, but humility goes before honor. if one gives answers before he hears my brothers, it is to his shame. he who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love this, will eat it's fruits. see, to me, a man is better off if he walks with integrity, then a man who is perverse in speech, and is a fool.
when a man's mistakes bring his downfall, his heart rages against God. peace braa's


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #778336 -

...a fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.

Amen dude! Nice post. I think I might have spotted 1 or 2 around here somewhere...


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: buttonion]
    #778372 -

has anybody but me noticed how swami will start a topic, then shutup for a long time. swami is intelligent. i know this from his posts...so i think he's just sitting back laughing at what he started. kinda funny.

yeah, but buttonion, we must remember to call no one a fool. that is for them to decide in themselves. i just stated truths about how fools act. who am i to say any body is a fool? except me of course. and yes. i am so foolish sometimes i hate myself. but i get over it. everybody has their shining moments.
did somebody say earlier that christianity is selfish because we just want to be saved and do what we want? or something like that.
i beg to differ my brother. if i could be held responsible for all the human race and take their sins on my back and be punished for them so that none would be lost (in my religion, there will be lost souls, i know some of you don't believe in that, so you don't have to go off on it.) then i would gladly do that and remain in purgatory for ten million times as long as anyone else. i cring at the thought, but many many times i wish i could. some christians love others more than themselves and cry every time they feel that someone hates God. because to the christian, this means they will be lost (maybe not to you does it mean this) and thinking of the pain of being seperated from ones very essence of happiness....forever....i wouldn't wish that on anyone. even hitler. yeah he needs some serious purging before he stands before the king. but....i love to love and hate all hate. and i wish no pain on anyone. grab a piece of peace my braa's and hold on to it. for we all need all we can get.


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #778429 -

Instead of joking about the illusions and delusions that go by the name of Christian, why not get down to the Brilliant Singularity that radiates the Truth of the matter?

Good question. Because neither myself nor anyone I know (apparently) has discovered the Brilliant Singularity - they just proclaim to. I used to believe it possible, but having no contemporary role models nor having not had even a glimmer after all my years of study and desire to believe/attain, it seems to be just another fable.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #778437 -

ah! now we here from the enigmatic swami.


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Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #778452 -

Swami, I really expected so much more from you.
Sorry, I really am just a shallow instigator. Hey 36 replies in a few hours is nearly a record!

Your caricature of the Christian is known as "poisoning the well". If you are trying to show evidence that some "believers" are not devout, why bother? If you are trying to show there is no difference between some "believers" and some atheists, again, why bother?
I would expect some small difference to show up in the population at large, but see none.

If I took a random group of joggers vs. non-joggers, I can guarantee that the jogging group (even including those that were undisciplined in their training) would have better health and be lower in weight as a group because the METHODOLOGY WORKS! The Christian method as it is generally preached seems to be TOTALLY INEFFECTIVE in any measurable outward sense.

What is the point you were trying to make? Without directly stating your reason or the conclusions you draw from your biased dialogue we are left with little to go on.
Actually I thought I made my point. Studying the Bible and following sacraments and going to church, does not lead one closer to God else there would be some sort of empirical (read: behaviorial) evidence. There is none. The Believers don't even Believe what they are trying to get others to Believe.

In the Bible, Jesus says you will know them (Christians) by their actions. Well, I can't tell the difference. Am I too dense to see it or is there no difference?

Of course this always gives you the hiding place of ultraliteralism if one should choose to take your bait and give some meaning to your post. You can always tell us what you didn't say.
It is very important to leave the back door open...


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #778461 -

streching it swami.
but peace braa.

Perhaps, but who took the greatest interest in you (though we had no previous encounter) when there was the likelihood that you may have taken poisonous mushrooms?

Was it the atheistic Swami? *pats self on back* (I know this comes as a shock to all you Swami-bashers, that the old Swam is really a softy...)




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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #778464 -

I could detect no humor in his post.

Didn't realize all my posts HAD TO BE witty. Will try harder to be clever in the future.



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #778466 -

swami man! are you saying you've never seen a christian who acted like one? never met one? i've met a few actually. they seem perfect. always nice, never shocked, so at peace, so loving, so helpful, so willing to give up theirs for somebody else and always with a smile. i'm sure mother theresa showed she was a christian by her fruits. what about the religious who work among the poor? living destitute with the poor? just trying to make their life better....do you do that?
i know i don't. i wish i was a better person, but i'm not.


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Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #778469 -

yes swami, and i have very deep respect for you. i thank you for all your help in that. but it did seem streched just a wee bit thar. christians aren't THAT bad. and neither are athiests. we make each other seem ten times worse than we really are.


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Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #778488 -

swami man! are you saying you've never seen a christian who acted like one?
Didn't say that. Have you never met a Christian that didn't act like one? Have you never met an atheist whose actions you would deem as Christ-like? As a generalized group, the statistics are the same as for atheists.

Perhaps my latest ire is due to dating nothing but divorced Christian women who will sleep with me almost immediately then preach to me or tell me that I am unsuitable as a potential partner (because of belief). The hypocrisy gets quite tiring.

Or my born-again evangelical Baptist brother breaking my Catholic mom's heart, by telling her she is NOT a Christian and will burn in hell. How loving!



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #778491 -

Thank you for the clarification.

1. As you intimated most Christians do not live up to their cognomen. Therefore, I deduce they are not what they say they are. Your point is well taken. However, that does not mean that there are no people of faith that live up to their cognomen. In order to find them you have to be around a lot of "Christians". That is too difficult for some. I have met quite a few Christians that are truly Christ-like, but I had to sift through a lot of chaff to meet them.

2. I would never require you to be other than what you are. If you are witty, fine. If not, fine as well.

3. If I find flaws in your thinking I will call you on it. I expect the same from you.

Cheers,

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #778499 -

Or my born-again evangelical Baptist brother breaking my Catholic mom's heart, by telling her she is NOT a Christian and will burn in hell. How loving!

I am sorry to hear that you have that kind of "Christian", meaning your brother, in your family. I have a few of those myself. Gee, aren't families fun?

Cheers,

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #779133 -

baptist's are the only ones who tell me i'm going to hell for being catholic. not all baptists mind you, but enough for me to be instantly wary when one says, "yeah i go to first baptist church." but it bugs me when i do that. i shouldn't, because each person i meet is new. regardless of wether or not they happen to follow a group that has done me wrong before...was it that particular person who did me wrong?

which one of the first baptist churches was first?


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Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #779180 -

Im not realy sure who in these threads that im directing this to but after reading the whole thing.....I came to the conclusion that
1) Everybody has faith in somthing (even if somthing is nothing)
2)There is definately not a heaven or hell. Humans just felt lonely so they ignored the obvious powers of nature and created a God and laws.
3)These laws were meant to keep everyone in line but where you have rules you have people that break rules.
4)Jesus was a cool dude, realy peaceful. He revised the religous beliefs of the time.
5)We need a new Jesus to rexplain things for everyone
6)Buddah was also a cool dude he did the same thing in the east what jesus did in the west
7)peace on earth would be cool, but if everyone wants it then where is it?
8) If everyone smoked a little pot evey once in a while things would be alot calmer.
9)What is religion anyway?
10) Remember "The walrus and the Carpenter" from alice in wonderland?

"The Walrus And The Carpenter"
Think about it this way. The walrus represents Buddah and the Gods of the East. The Carpenter represents Jesus the Carpenter son of Joseph the carpenter, and the Christian saviorof the west.
The message...Watch the segment. All organised religions lead to certain demise.
..............?
I think we should tune into the natural magic of nature and lead our own beliefs and think of the logical answers to life's questions. We dont need a priest to help us talk to "god" or the spirits of the universe. Remember we are all individuals. Belisfs that work for one person may not work for everyone else.
We are in a new era. organised religion is not sufficient anymore to explain the mysteries of religion

If anyone reading this dissagrees with anything i said, please let me know because my beliefs allow me to learn from others as well as my own experience.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: EndlessJourney]
    #779219 -

i disagree.


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Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #779527 -

Morality doesn't come from a book, it needs to be taught, and it develops in childhood along certain noticeable lines. Jean Piaget and Lawrence Kohlberg, among the original investigators, have elaborated 6 different levels of morality. A hypothetical 7th was suggested, but secular people didn't take to it, and it is of a spiritual nature.

All people have faith in something, even their senses and reasoning. You claim to believe in compassion, empathy and love. These are transcendental properties insofar as they all (related as they are) require the surpassing of one's desire-based ego in order to be manifested. Selflessness is in common to all three manifestations of THAT consciousness which acts in those ways. Now, if indeed you do embrace this Way of Being as central and as the 'Master motive' of your personality, then you have indeed established a spiritual faith that you have simply not been able to articulate as of yet. To deny belief in God in this case is a blatant contradiction IF you are truthful about these values. You may not believe in a childish Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky, like a mythological Zeus, but that is a good thing. You will have to Realize eventually that Ultimate Reality, as personified, is commonly referred to as God; and that God as Creator and Redeemer is not less than personal (since we, the creation are personal), but Suprapersonal.

Transcendental facets within our personality are not merely 'natural,' or 'animal,' but derive from a Transcendental Source. Selfishness is the natural condition. Morality can be mere social conditioning, and life will test it's grounding. If it is grounded in faith - in a Transcendental Source, it will be constant in a crisis; if mere conditioning, it will cave in at the first real crisis or temptation.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #779540 -

Wow!...All of YOUR years of study. One young life who can't find Truth within his own midst. You have no faith in those good people who have articulated this Way of Being for centuries, and just because YOU have not possessed the faith to ASK for spiritual reassurance or comfort, you become agnostic or a cynic or a scientific materialist? Maybe that's your problem - YOU are in your own way. Maybe the humbling, foolish act that seems like talking to the air or talking to yourself holds the key to 'becoming as a little child' in order to experience the 'Kingdom of Heaven.' I'm referring to prayer - you CAN petition the LORD with prayer!

Now, the Brilliant Singularity is clearly a symbol of Christian mystical experience to me, and if humbly, and I repeat HUMBLY prepared, that Singularity - the Logos through which God continually begets existence from the heart of every atom - WILL manifest in your heart of hearts. It happened to me because I wanted it, knowing full well it would change me forever, despite the fact that it would alienate my family and friends. It has not made me a robot, but has improved the quality and passion of my life throughout all of life's hardships: disease, divorce and death. I'm not your role model, but I've been a cynic and I've been a believer. Let me tell you, I lost nothing of value but gained Everything by the choice.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (07/27/02 07:37 AM)

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #779577 -

bravo markos. your articulation on this subject is very very good braa.


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Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #779778 -

Thank, whiterastahippie.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #779825 -

Wow!...All of YOUR years of study. One young life who can't find Truth within his own midst.
This assumes two things:

1. That there is an ultimate truth that is discoverable.

2. That some methodology will lead you to it.

I had faith in both of these and discovered nothing. That is the main point of my rant. Out of millions of believers, no one or extremely few "get it" else their outward life would be somehow affected.

I metioned a few months back how my last role model (Swami Kriyananda who was forced to leave the country for sexual indiscretion in his 70s!) fell by the wayside. Here is a man who devoted his entire life to chanting, prayer, affirmation, yoga, pranayama, reading of the scriptures, leading a simple life, etc. If he could not "get it" then how is it more likely for me?

You have no faith in those good people who have articulated this Way of Being for centuries,
I did once upon a time.

and just because YOU have not possessed the faith to ASK for spiritual reassurance or comfort, you become agnostic or a cynic or a scientific materialist?
I have prayed and found nobody home.






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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #780241 -

"baptist's are the only ones who tell me i'm going to hell for being catholic. not all baptists mind you, but enough for me to be instantly wary when one says, "yeah i go to first baptist church." but it bugs me when i do that. i shouldn't, because each person i meet is new. regardless of wether or not they happen to follow a group that has done me wrong before...was it that particular person who did me wrong?

which one of the first baptist churches was first? "

Yes but it is hard to get away from generalizing when you have had numerous exposures to a group and they have all been bad.

Which one was first? The first one, of course!

Cheers,

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #780903 -

I feel for you...and I'm not being facetious. During the mid 70's I went to a 'happening' at St. John the DIvine's Cathedral in NYC. I don't remember all the famous 'holy guys' who were there, but I do remember Swami Satchitananda and the Sufi Pir Vilayat. Shortly after, I was completing teacher-training in Transcendental Meditation, and was going to have to receive initiation in Switzerland by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi himself. Some weeks before I would have left, I 'happened upon' a document written by a Christian who had defected from the higher ranks of TM. It showed me the intentional deceptions concerning the nature of the mantras (references were to Sir Arthur Avalon's 'Garland of Letters.' Avalon is a great authority on Indian spirituality; he wrote 'the Serpent Power,' which is still definitive on Kundalini Yoga). Anyway...I was being greatly deceived by doctrines and practices, which I'll not bore you with, but if there is one thing I won't tolerate, it's lying - the very root of evil and the enemy of Truth. I could tell you all kinds of tales about gurus and swamis, like the chubby Maharishi of the Divine Light Mission, who lived in an estate on Long Island where I went to college, and would ride around on a lawnmower. He'd ask people, 'Do you know the secret of Life, Spirit and Death? Code for LSD.' I'm gonna bow down before some fat little Hindu con man? I saw people give away all they had to live in shitty little communes. I didn't then, nor do I now, require another man or woman to tell me how to live.

Techniques for guiding one's mind into inner channels, drops, winds can be found at Snow Lion Press; or finding the inner Christ in the Writings from the Philokalia (Orthodox Christian contemplatives); or classic Yoga texts. Techniques are just scaffolding. Clearly the Universe was created. I don't think many scientists hold to a Steady State theory any more - maybe an Oscillating Universe, as the Hindus say - but the space-time continuum was created from a Singularity at 10 to the minus 43rd secod. The origin of that Singularity - for me - is God. Kabbalists say that God contracted his Essence to create an infinitesimal 'void' in his Essential Nature, and that void was the Singularity. "Fiat Lux !" Try to remember the expanded created universe and trace back to it's inception, to remind yourself of God in His Creative aspect. This remembering back from phenomena to its Noumenal and Numinous Source is a logical contemplation that may well result in a breakthrough moment of personal revelation for you. As the Guru (the only one I've ever regarded as genuine) Neem Karoli Baba said to Ram Dass: "Love everyone; Serve everyone and Remember God."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #781275 -



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[Everything stated above is, fictional, and is a result of a delusional mind, role playing]

Edited by therewatchingme (07/28/02 12:06 AM)

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: therewatchingme]
    #781420 -

Well, I'm not from Vulcan. God is not "a being." God is the Ground of Being. The mind is a wonderful servant and a terrible master.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: therewatchingme]
    #781428 -



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[Everything stated above is, fictional, and is a result of a delusional mind, role playing]

Edited by therewatchingme (07/28/02 04:37 AM)

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: therewatchingme]
    #781642 -

Fair enough.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: therewatchingme]
    #781689 -

the truth will set you free. hmmmm...is it me? or is that a bible verse?

so faith is blind? and logic is the only religion??? I'M CONVERTED!!I SHALL NO LONGER BE A CHRIS....wait, and here i was thinking you were an open minded person after reading yur long story post all about drugs helping you see things from every angle. but then i come in here and i see you make close minded statements like that.

who likes pizza? damn it, i'm hungry!


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Peace and Love to all!

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Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #781701 -



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[Everything stated above is, fictional, and is a result of a delusional mind, role playing]

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: therewatchingme]
    #781725 -

oh. ok braa! that's totally cool. the way you phrased it seemed kinda harsh. but who hasn't been guilty of that once or twice eh? not everybody believes in God and that's cool with me. i go to mass today, and i had a thunderstorm of a religious experience that just proved to me that no matter what logic may say, i know what i feel, hear and see when God wants to talk to me. i am racked with sobs and tears (lemme tell you, in a CATHOLIC church, people looka t you funny for this.)
but hey my brother. you have a wondeful day. because i know i will. peace!


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Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #781820 -

I once had this jehova's witness say i was closed minded to the truth of god and jesus christ. I tried to explain to him if he never heard of the bible would the same god in his mind exist. He gave no reply.

God and the Bible are just human ideas. Some humans think that there is truth in our minds when hey... who the fauk knows? Not i.


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Evolution of Time.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Droz]
    #781840 -

hey braa! did you know that for the first three hundred years of christianity all the christians have was a few letters from the apostles, and the jewish torah, which they didn't really use? did ya did ya did ya? yep, that's right braa, no bible for the first three hundred years, then they wrote the bible to fit their beliefs so they could pass them on to later generations...so what was God in thier minds? exactly what they wrote about him in the bible. them JW's need to learn history. love and peace brothers!


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Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #781923 -

yeah, but buttonion, we must remember to call no one a fool. that is for them to decide in themselves.

Totally dude.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Droz]
    #783152 -

I once had this jehova's witness say i was closed minded to the truth of god and jesus christ.


I once tried to get a couple of them to take hallucinogenic mushrooms, they politely declined. (and never came back)

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #783380 -

im not sure if anyone has said this point yet, but i got the idea from one of Evolving's posts:
The believer's are selfesh because they try to have their sins forgiven to save themselves in the afterlife, thus implying they cant deal with what they deserve, i think it's more infavor of the nonbelievers because they try not to redeme themselves and are prepared for what they deserve, and the believers are just adding selfishness of not wanting to deal with what they've done to their so called 'sins'


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:potleaf: :tendshroom: :potleaf:
:leaf::peyotespectrum::leaf:

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: therewatchingme]
    #783416 -

You are an egoist, and therfore, quite deluded. Your ego, or viewpoint is precariously inflated (I recommend you read the Myth of Icarus and Daedalus sometime soon). No one's ego is it's own guiding light. Reality dosn't work that way, and of course, if you believe that your own ego is a 'guiding light,' which is a metaphor for God, then I have come full-circle - you are deluded.

If nothing else, a little bibliotherapy from a source that can help you cognitively understand the difference between ego, and the vaster field of Psyche which ego is 'born from,' say Edward Edinger's 'Ego and Archetype' - the first chapter.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: misterogerz]
    #783444 -

I have an Egyptian papyrus depicting the soul of the dead being weighed on a scale against a feather. This papyrus [reproduction] pre-dated Christianity, and much of Judaism as well. The notion of being pure, and like unto God Himself is a very, very old idea. The light, airy, non-earth-bound soul has become 'lighter-than-a-feather - figuratively. It is not about being selfish, it is about being selfless. One's 'self' does not 'get into' Heaven - only one's Love 'gets in.' This is why the high religions stress Compassion and Love so urgently - that is the Nature of Ultimate Reality, and one's spirit must be transformed, transfigured, transubstantiated - into the Nature of Ultimate Reality, which is God.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #783662 -

we make each other seem ten times worse than we really are.
I agree... I got sick of reading this after the 3rd page.

Great swami, your atheist, and I'm religious. Some Christians arnt really christians - thats nothing new. I have no problems with athiests - I dont friggin care what you believe or dont believe. I would like athiests to have the same ideas about me. No need for this. If from what you've experienced Christians and athiests dont seem different maybe you've only been meeting not so real Christians.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: TeKHeAD009]
    #783985 -

I dont friggin care what you believe or dont believe.
(Feel all the love pouring down...) You are being dishonest here else you would not have posted.

I would like athiests to have the same ideas about me. No need for this.
Funny, but it is ALWAYS the Christians trying to impose their views, not the other way around. It would be nice if there were equal respect, but there is not.

Do atheists go on missions to brainwash the primitive heathens? No.

Do atheists go door to door to try to tell you about their views of religion? No.

Is the mushroom illegal because of atheists or because of the Catholic Church? (Read up on Coretez and the Aztecs - the first drug prohibition.)

Do atheists tell you that you will go to hell while adopting a superior attitude, but committing the exact same sins? No.

Abortion, Gay rights, pornography, marijuana... Who is meddling with whom?

If from what you've experienced Christians and athiests dont seem different maybe you've only been meeting not so real Christians.
That is an incredibly weak argument. Why don't statistics show any difference? This is NOT just my opinion or life experience!

Christ was NOT a Christian!


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #784466 -

Wow Swami!

Many of your very own posts could be considered to be proselytizing for atheism. I cannot count the times when I have encountered arrogant atheists consumed with their empirical evidence putting down the ignorant Christians on the Internet.

So much so in fact that I delight in carving them up with Occam's razor.

Atheists are not better people than Christians, even hypocritical Christians. History is replete of the slaughter of Christians by atheists. Today, in China, they martyr Christians.

Your diatribe is a little one-sided.

Cheers,

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #784581 -

(Feel all the love pouring down...) You are being dishonest here else you would not have posted.
I'm not being dishonest. Where did you read dishonesty from me? My statment was that I dont care what you believe or dont believe. How can you draw dishonesty from that without assuming something. I wanted to share my opinion about christians vs. atheists and that was: I dont care what you believe - I wont force my beliefs on you - if you dont ask questions in an attempt to scof at me or persuade me. That is what your doing isnt it? As for the pouring love, their is no real reason for you to sarcastically remark on my word friggin'. Their was no anger behind my post.

Funny, but it is ALWAYS the Christians trying to impose their views, not the other way around. It would be nice if there were equal respect, but there is not.

I'm not imposing anything their... Again your assuming something about me. Perhaps I worded it wrong - I would like athiests to have the same mindset as I for dealing with people of a different belief. Is that better? My way of dealing with people of a different belief: You believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want. Same as before.

Have I imposed my religious beliefs on the primitive heathens? No.

Have I gone door to door trying to tell you about my views of religion? No.

Is the mushroom illegal because of the athiests or because of the Catholic church? Yes I have read about the first drug prohibition in the Americas, and the answer is: The Catholic church....

...but is that of any relevence? No.

Abortion, gay rights, pornography, marijuana... These are all different issues that everyone has different opinions on. They are also not relevent. Whats your point?

That is an incredibly weak argument. Why don't statistics show any difference? This is NOT just my opinion or life experience!
This statment is just as weak as mine. What statistics? Show me the statistics that dont show any difference between atheists and Christians. You cant gather statistics about that - and if you can I want to see it.

You seem arogent, I agree with Mr. Mushrooms.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #784670 -

History is replete of the slaughter of Christians by atheists.

The Christians were killed by other equally stubborn dogmatists with a political or counter religious agenda. I do NOT belong to any cohesive anti-God* group. I have NO dogma nor agenda (except to be left alone by ANYONE wanting to meddle in my personal freedom).

I think you are astute enough to realize that I have nothing to do with Communist China and you know that your argument has no legs.

*I am not anti-God at all, more agnostic than atheist. I am anti-"stop trying to change me and place your morals on me".



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #784702 -

I understand your position and you have been sufficiently clear why you hold it. But I am not talking about you, I am talking about your idea that atheists are better people than Christians.

If I thought my argument had no legs I wouldn't have posted it.

Please explain why it is an insufficient rebuttal.

Cheers,

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: TeKHeAD009]
    #784718 -

How can you draw dishonesty from that without assuming something.
The word "friggin'" implies vehemence and distaste, which means that you in fact, do care enough to display emotion.

Have I imposed my religious beliefs on the primitive heathens? No.
Have I gone door to door trying to tell you about my views of religion? No.

Are you now saying that it is NOT a basic tenet of Christianity to "spread the word"?
Was I imagining it when the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door? I am imagining it that I stopped writing to my niece because in every letter she would tell me that I was going to hell and that I needed to be saved?

Was that you in particular? No.

Do you belong to an organization that attempts to spread the gospel? Most likely.

Do Christian get carried away in their "enthusiasm"? Frequently. (Read up on the history of the destruction of the Hawaiian culture by missionaries.)

...and the answer is: The Catholic church....
Which is a Christian organization.

What statistics? Show me the statistics that dont show any difference between atheists and Christians. You cant gather statistics about that - and if you can I want to see it.
I will see if I can find them. In the meantime, go to ANY church and check out the number of obese people. Then go into the parking lot and watch how many people light up. Then go to one of the singles events and check out the number of divorced parents.

You seem arogent.
Perhaps, but not so arrogant as Christians telling me that they know how I should communicate with God.

Like almost every other poster who's beliefs I have challenged, you get into my (perceived) personality traits which are irrelevant to the discussion.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #784738 -

But I am not talking about you, I am talking about your idea that atheists are better people than Christians.
I do NOT hold the idea that atheists are in anyway better than Christians - PERIOD. Clear enough?

I do hold the idea that Christians, for all their alleged superior connection with God and the Holy Spirit, demonstrate no moral superiority, nor do they (as a generalized group) even live according to that which they preach.

Christ came down pretty hard on hypocrisy. Was he arrogant?

If I thought my argument had no legs I wouldn't have posted it.
I thought I did. Do you truly believe that I am in anyway affiliated with comuunist China which has a very specific agenda of suppressing any beliefs counter to their own. I don't personally care what belief you hold as long as it does NOT overlap into my affairs. Tell me how to make this clearer.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #784783 -

I didn't know you were a Communist. j/k

If those are your points then they are abundantly clear. However, it also appears from certain comments that you think atheists are superior people.

I did not say that you were a Communist or affiliated with Communist China. My argument was that atheists have killed Christians for their faith and therefore are in no way morally superior to them. You missed my point.

In any event, while generalizations are helpful to a degree they are not completely accurate when dealing with individual members of a group.

Broad brushes paint poor pictures.

Cheers,

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #784801 -

Broad brushes paint poor pictures.

Isn't that a generalization?

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #784822 -

If you are insinuating that my statement is untrue or violates some law of logic, please by all means, instruct us. Or were you merely being didactic?

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #784827 -

You missed my point.
Perhaps, but I will try one more time here to make my position understood.

It is one group of dogmatists killing another group of dogmatists. I am NOT a part of ANY group with an agenda. I am a group of one. Christians (and Communists) have a fairly clear-cut agenda to mold others in their image and likeness.

In any event, while generalizations are helpful to a degree they are not completely accurate when dealing with individual members of a group.
Of course they are not completely accurate, but by belonging to a group, that signifies that the groups actions are by-and-large acceptable else one would not belong.


Summation:
Christian moralizers have indeed impacted my life on both a personal and political level. My lack of belief in the Christian view of God affects no one but myself.




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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #784877 -

I think this is one of those mobius dialogues where both parties think they are misunderstood.

For the record, I did not misunderstand the point(s) you were making. I was simply pointing out aspects of your statements that you made while you were placing your emphasis somewhere else.

Of course they are not completely accurate, but by belonging to a group, that signifies that the groups actions are by-and-large acceptable else one would not belong.

That is incorrect. If a person belongs to a large category s/he are not responsible for the actions of the group as a whole or for the actions of any one particular person in the group.

Example: I am a Christian. But I do not act the way others in that broad category do. I do not force my beliefs on others but only give answers to questions that are asked by people that are sincerely looking for them. I define sincerity as the ability to listen to my answers without being offended. If you live a life of love and compassion people are drawn to you and you don't have to force religion down their throat.

Christian moralizers have indeed impacted my life on both a personal and political level. My lack of belief in the Christian view of God affects no one but myself.

Also incorrect. When you make immoral choices you have an effect on the world. That in turn affects everyone including Christians.

Example: If you have ever voted for a pro-abortion candidate predicated on your lack of Christian faith and that candidate helps create and sustain laws that cause the life of humans to by killed by abortion, yo uhave indeed affected many people.

Swami, most of our actions affect others, and sometimes very significantly. There is no escaping that.

Cheers,

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #784904 -

I merely find it humorous that you were discussing generalizations and then you used the phrase, 'Broad brushes paint poor pictures' in reference (I assume) to generalizations. That statement is itself, a generalization.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #784908 -

No, your lack of belief in a TRULY Christian view of God is a loss for everyone. As to an agenda: you are uncritcally seeing anyone who confesses Christian faith as one of 'them,' which is simple prejudice. I am a Christian who has no agenda; moreover a Real Christian Knows that only God supplies the Consciousness [Spirit] that converts or transforms humans. Anything else is just ego that some loser has identified with being Christian. Christians are supposed to bear witness, not knock on your door early in the morning and challenge you. I respond when asked or provoked. All else is inappropriate.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #784916 -

Yes, my word friggin carried some emotion - but that does not mean my statment about not caring was dishonest. Why would I lie about that? I gain nothing from it. Why I posted about not caring: because I wish that atheists would take the same mindset and not care if I believe in God. (Not that I do, but) If I were to say I was christian, but not do anything that the bible tells me then thats my problem. Why should you care? Question the individual, not every christian.

Are you now saying that it is NOT a basic tenet of Christianity to "spread the word"?
Yes it is... but I've been taught in all my years of christianity to not forcefully tell people about the word, but perhaps sugest comming to church sometime. A simple 'yeah I go to church, ya wanna come with me sunday, or sometime?... No, well, if you ever change your mind I go every sunday' sorta thing. Believe me, I hate it just as much as you when mormens/jehovah witnesses come to my door and tell me that what I believe is wrong.

You find those statistics I seriously would be interested in seeing them. However, I'm not interested enough to count fat people in my church, or people who smoke.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #784939 -

I see. Do you know of the branch of analytic logic that deals with such statements?

Was that humor risible? I couldn't tell from your posts.

Cheers,

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #784942 -

No, your lack of belief in a TRULY Christian view of God is a loss for everyone.
Please explain.

As to an agenda: you are uncritcally seeing anyone who confesses Christian faith as one of 'them,' which is simple prejudice.
It is not an attitude I adopt lightly nor uncritically. Am I to discard my thousands of negative experiences which are on-going and reinforcing?

I realize that anecdotes have little weight, yet this is what I have to go on. Recently a born-again Christian was propounding on Christ, sin and being saved. I asked him if theft was sin. He said yes. I asked if theft of a service was as much of a sin as theft of a good. He said yes. Then I asked why he was using my apartment weight room facilities (not as a guest). He explained that he used to live here, but moved across the street to save money. I explained that I was paying higher rent for these facilities and that he was stealing from me. Then I asked if he would continue to use them knowing that it was theft? Of course he would. Ah the power of rationalization.

Lead by example, not by hollow words!

I am a Christian who has no agenda; moreover a Real Christian Knows that only God supplies the Consciousness [Spirit] that converts or transforms humans.
Guess I have never knowingly met a real Christian.

Christians are supposed to...
Reality and shoulds are frequently at odds.

All else is inappropriate.
Agreed.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #784964 -

Do you know of the branch of analytic logic that deals with such statements?
Irony?

Was that humor risible?
No, it was visible, I saw it in your post.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #784974 -

I think Satan has you by the balls.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #784987 -

Irony?

No, it's a little more evolved than that.

Ah yes, visible. I see what you mean.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #785019 -

I think Satan has you by the balls.
Not one of your deeper responses. Care to elucidate?

I think one of the great myths held by Christians (as a group) is that because atheists don't believe in God and heaven/hell, that they have no moral compass which is totally untrue. I consider myself a person of the highest order of integrity. My word is my bond. I will do anything for a friend and I do not want that I have not fairly earned.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #785022 -

Aristotle believed in Satan?
Oh, wait... was that a metaphor?


I'm slowly seeing the real intentions behind the play... now I have to wonder why.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Sclorch]
    #785042 -

No, Aristotle believed in Santa, but he was dyslexic.

Edited by Evolving (07/29/02 07:12 PM)

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Sclorch]
    #785060 -

You guys had better tone it down or I'll sic Shroomism on ya!

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #785076 -

I was joking. LOL!!!

I have known many atheists whose moral compass was so much better than some supposed Christians it was embarassing.

Of course very few people think they are bad people. We all tend to see ourselves in a good light. Some think that when Christ said love your neighbor as yourself that is what he meant. View them as you do yourself.

Cheers,

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #785084 -

That really seems like an insignificant thing to hound on someone about.
On several threads pertaining to Christianity I've seen you pick out a statment made by a Christian and make a sarcastic remark about how unkind it is. Such as the 'can you feel the love pouring out' quote from eariler.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: TeKHeAD009]
    #785093 -

I think 'ol Swami's trying to point out the hypocrisy in some self described Christians' behaviors. I would think that it would be welcome if you were truly trying to improve yourself.

Edited by Evolving (07/29/02 07:27 PM)

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #785094 -

Ummmm.....
I think that any static philosophy is gonna weaken you...
Really....you don't know.
The pope doesn't know...
Jimmy Swagart know's booty is good, but still doesn't know...

Really, the Christian CHURCH has very little to do with Christianity. I don't think that you're looking at Christianity in the proper light (not that i blame yoU, lot's of CRAP out there)...I think Christ ROCKED! Many of my favorite lessons in compassion come from the Christ mind...
But being a STAUNCH beliver in Christ is as stupid as being a STAUNCH athiest.

I don't think that..
k...
let's finish this one with a line from the JEWS...
When given a choice between two options, choose the third.

Hope that clears this up...

Hmmm...
also wondering why so many christians are here (ie, @ the shroomery)...
Is this like some religious right teen evangelism initiative?

hahahahhahahhahaha!

Thx,
the pale e

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #785095 -

I don't see what's so offending about Swami's first post?
Maybe I have just been desensitized to his cynicism after two years of the constant barrage.. heh.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #785111 -

Maybe I have just been desensitized to his cynicism after two years of the constant barrage.. heh.

*sigh* Makes want to rachet it up a notch as I must be losing shock value.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (07/29/02 08:07 PM)

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #785137 -

He characterizes all Christians as hypocritical and sinful. That is completely biased and untrue.

What do you think he was trying to do?

And Swami, you won't be ratcheting anything up if the new rules are applied fairly. I am not kidding here.

Peace,

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #785185 -

I'm not sure... Swami remains a mystery to me.
I'll read this long ass thread again

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #785193 -

He characterizes all Christians as hypocritical and sinful.

He said "all"? I don't think so. He implied "most", definitely not "all" (in my humble interpretation and perception of the bulk of the good Swami's posts).

I'd have to agree with the "most" thing too.

And Swami, you won't be ratcheting anything up if the new rules are applied fairly. I am not kidding here.

Christ, man! Do you read humor into statements only when it suits you or what?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Sclorch]
    #785210 -

Sclorch,

He changed it to read "some" faithful. I think that is better. And yes, if you remember some of the things I've said I agree with the "most" as well.

As far as the humor goes I do have a terrible time seeing it at times. Most of the time I assume it is humor but if a topic gets me in a serious mood I have trouble seeing it.

You have a very keen perception I think. I watch you play with words and use ambiguity with great skill. Now, maybe that's just my perception too.

Cheers,

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #785581 -

It is a loss inasmuch as the world needs perceptive, intelligent Children of God - Pneumatic Christians, as the Gnostics say, in addition to the legions of Psychic Christians - the difference being "many are called but few are chosen." Think about it...there are few Christians who believe as I do (which I am trying to describe at this forum without too much ego involvement. I.e., I am a 'type,' which is far more important than 'listen to ME - I'm special'). There are armies of people like the ones most of us find obnoxious. I'm not immune to Saturday morning Jehova Witness visits. I've had to change my Dymo label on the doorbell to read "No Evangelizing" from "No Proselytizing" because people didn't know what the word meant even though they were doing it!

Secondly. Prejudice. Miami is a city divided with racial tension - Black, Latin and White (most of whom have left Miami-Dade County). We even had a band a few years ago called 'Dead German Tourist' named after the unfortunate blondies who got lost in Overtown on the way from the airport and got jacked and killed by hateful African Americans. When I moved here, I found myself completely invisible in Cuban establishments. Don't even let me begin to discuss Haitians, with whom I worked for over a decade. BUT...if there is just ONE single exception to the masses of human wreckage...you cannot remain prejudiced. I have a Haitian friend - she's a doll - animal rights, a counselor like myself, etc. I have a Cuban friend. My Lady is Nigerian-Jamaican, Cornell graduate, MBA degree, gorgeous. Christians. Yes, discard the thousands of negative experiences of counterfeit or Psychic Christians whose degree of Awakeness is minimal. They may all technically be 'justified [by faith]' but few are truly 'sanctified.' It's like everything else in life: art, beauty, genius, love...these people and these qualities are 'pearls of great price.' They are not everywhere. Kids grafitti, whores parade, arrogants spout...but these are people who only think they're about art, beauty or genius. Same for people calling themselves Christians. Discern, man, don't pre-judge. Minority doesn't equal non-existence.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #785631 -

Markos, Markos, Markos...
How many times do we have to tell you that you're not a christian? You think too much to be one.

You're a theist that follows the teachings of Jesus as found in the bible.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Sclorch]
    #785932 -

"You're a theist that follows the teachings of Jesus as found in the bible."

That is good, anyway, humanitate magis quam religione nobis opus est.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: MAIA]
    #786142 -

isn't one who follows the teachings of jesus christ a CHRISTian then?
maybe not as the world has given the stereotype, but in the true sense of the word.


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #786152 -

It is quite possible that one could follow the moral teachings of Jesus Christ, but yet not believe in the Christian version of God or the divinity of Christ.

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #786201 -

His teachings are universal, he's a master of goodness, the problem is blind faith. I believe that faith can mislead people into falsehood, and that we need reason and doubt as necessary checks against our capacity for error. I believe that we need to allow our fellow human beings to make choices for themselves and to live the life they wish to, in mutual peace and goodwill. I believe in many of the values christians like to preach, you know, sometimes atheists can be a real paradox to a christians eyes.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

Edited by MAIA (07/30/02 10:50 AM)

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Sclorch]
    #786300 -

Stop that...you're being silly again.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #787297 -

"Do you think i know what i'm doing? that for one breath or half a breath i belong to myself? AS much as a pen knows what it's writing, or the ball can guess where it's going next?" ----jelaluddin rumi
peace braa.

but then, you saying he couldn't be a christian cause he thought too much...kinda unthoughtful of...who was it that posted that? sclorch. yeah, does that make you a christian since it was unthoughtful?


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #787393 -

swami has a brilliant post, it clearly states the contradictions within christianity and renders the contextual ideas presented throughout the religion as a faulty construction.


--------------------
" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "



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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #787418 -

He characterizes all Christians as hypocritical and sinful. That is completely biased and untrue.


he said that everyone is hypocritical and sinful.

I thought that's what Christians believed too?


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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #787420 -

renders the contextual ideas presented throughout the religion as a faulty construction.

what????

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: why]
    #787422 -

i know dude, freethinkers seem to be SO surprised that christians are sinners or something, they always say that.
well hey, at least we agree on something. if i was perfect i wouldn't need God.
peace all.


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #787424 -

hey vibrant, how'd you get five mushrooms and you only got seven posts? man i want some shroomies braa!


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!

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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #787842 -

Ah... so now we're not "skeptics", we're "freethinkers". hahahahaha I can live with that.

i know dude, freethinkers seem to be SO surprised that christians are sinners or something, they always say that.

NO. You keep missing this one point Swami has repeated over and over again.
With all the divine insight Christians receive from going to church, praying, having visions, or whatever... in the end, the percentages of Christians who do fucked up things is NO DIFFERENT from the percentages of non-religious people (be they agnostics, athiests, or whatever). Understand? If so, then what extra good is offered by adherance to the Christian regimen?

well hey, at least we agree on something. if i was perfect i wouldn't need God.

Wasn't Jesus perfect? He needed God.
I'm really sorry you have this belief... it's a hindrance on your own thought process. You can't be perfect? This is a line of BS. You're perfect the way you are. Imperfections in one's self arise when you adopt someone else's standards on perfection. Fuck trying to be perfect.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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