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OfflineDigs
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Registered: 07/06/03
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Christianity
    #1697706 - 07/08/03 09:46 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

For some reason during a stone I starting thinking about how, if you slant Christianity, it kind of made sense.

Jesus (or quotes) attributed to him seem to be mostly right on....some seem enlightened.

It seems possible to me that he knew the truth.....and was just spreading the message, a feeling I'm sure we've all been inclined to indulge....at least in our minds at some point.

I'm by no means a Christian history buff, so I have no idea when in his life gaining that knowladge would have happened..../shrug

The Christian ideal that Jesus was the son of God, can still hold if you say he was A son of god.....knowing that god's an everpresent force around us, not an old guy with a beard :smile:

Just made me think that even the most distorted religions have some truth, kind of a good feeling :smile: 


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Invisiblechunder
marker

Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 966
Loc: The City
Re: Christianity [Re: Digs]
    #1697729 - 07/08/03 09:52 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

"Just made me think that even the most distorted religions have some truth"

Religions aren't distorted, people's perception of them is.


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christianity [Re: chunder]
    #1697753 - 07/08/03 10:02 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

By first starting off, let me state that I am a Christian. But this does not mean that I am perfect. I constantly make mistakes. Christianity is not one of many paths. It is the path. Christ did not just "spread a universal word," he actually died for our sins. Anybody can accept Christ, from a serial killer to a little kid. I do not have all of the answers to (I assume) to your many questions. But think of it this way: Most of the world's religions are a way for man to reach God, but Christianity is the only one where God reached man.
I am open to any questions, comments, or even people thinking about becoming a Christian.
P.S.- I know that this site is a "drug" site. I do not believe in using plants just to get "high." I believe that God created these plants to be used as medicine, and as teachers.


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OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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Invisiblechunder
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Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 966
Loc: The City
Re: Christianity [Re: Funguy]
    #1697790 - 07/08/03 10:13 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

What about the cultures that existed before Christianity came along?


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Christianity [Re: chunder]
    #1697865 - 07/08/03 10:37 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Most of the world's religions are a way for man to reach God, but Christianity is the only one where God reached man.

Yeah, but.. can you prove it?


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christianity [Re: chunder]
    #1697866 - 07/08/03 10:37 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

But of course, the Bible starts at the beginning of the world. I would assume that before Adam and Eve sinned, there was no "religion." They were perfect and had a direct relationship with God. After mankind's fall, other great people walked and talked with God. Christ's death was the fulfilment of Jewish scripture, which started at the beginning of time. Christianity appeared only about 2000 years ago. A great book to read, that can answer many more questions than I can, is called "The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell. He originally wrote it to disprove Christianity, but ended up becoming a Christian in the process. A great book! I am very tired, and will write some more tommorow. Good night!


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OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Christianity [Re: Funguy]
    #1697935 - 07/08/03 10:53 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I believe in cave men. In fact, I AM a cave man. My existence disproves your creation myth.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity [Re: Funguy]
    #1698034 - 07/08/03 11:24 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Allow me to recommend a book for you. It is one of the most important theological treatises I've read since graduating from seminary in 1978. It is 'Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes,' by [former] Archbishop John Shelby Spong. If you are still reading the Christian mythos as historical report, instead of as 'midrash' (an ancient Hebrew story-telling technique used to impart spiritual truths); and if you haven't realized yet that the New Testament was written with parallel stories, intended to re-tell the OT with new heros - indeed, to replace those heroes and prove that Y'shua was foretold by the Prophets...then you REALLY need to read THIS book by Spong. He is quite a scholar, and his work reconciles the disparity between faith and reason that (understandably) prevents moderns from embracing the Bible.

What I see in your brief reply is a literal and hence fundamentalist approach to Scriptures. As prevalent as this interpretation of Christianity SEEMS to be, I can say without hesitation that such a view is heretical. The recognized earliest and most genuine Christian writngs are some of the Pauline letters, and nowhere (for example) is there any mention of the 'resurrected Christ' as a re-animated, resusitated fleshy body. Paul's experience of the resurrected Christ was purely spiritual. The Gospels, which were written decades later by individuals with very specific agendas, were liturgical pieces meant to coincide with the Jewish calendar of religious holidays, and the miracle stories - including the physical resurrection - were intended to be midrashic. Just as there was no reporter at Bethlehem or Nazareth (depending upon separate and contradictory Gospel accounts), recording an astronomical/astrological anomaly. Midrash, not history.

It's not about disproving Christianity - it's about embracing 20 centuries of knowledge without fearing that one's faith will be destroyed by that knowledge. It's about knowing the difference between the historical, allegorical, symbolic and mystical levels of the Bible, and how to discern one from the other. It's about knowing the distinctively Jewish mind-set of the NT, and not adopting erroneous interpretations - mostly by Gentiles who knew little about ancient Judaism - even though those interpretations have become centuries-old traditions.

Most 'christians' are wrong about the Bible. Moreover, 'Real' Christians do not persecute, crusade, murder (as in 'holy' inquisitions, or witch burnings/drownings/hangings/crushings/etc.), or judge (which also means condemn non-Christians, or believe that God does not interface with non-Christians). Enlightenment cause people to become Christians - calling oneself a Christian has never Enlightened anyone.

Shalom. Salaam. Shanti. Pax. Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1698153 - 07/09/03 12:03 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

you never cease to amaze me with your knowledge markos... I even went so far as to search for all your posts and read alot of them, and everyone one I read is detailed and knowledgefull.. you have taught me alot in different things and I trust you know at least a little of what your talking about cause your 50 : )


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Invisiblealakona
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Re: Christianity [Re: 2Experimental]
    #1698163 - 07/09/03 12:09 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

markos, you are a great guy with very good opnions and knowledge. other good "finding the truth books": Why I am Not a Christian, by Bertrand Russel (a great collection of essays and speeches) and Loosing faith in faith...


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making you want to be a better person since 2008. 


TrippinTeddy said:
sometimes when I'm raping a bitch, I like to tickle her ribs and under neath her arms, and I say "loosen up bitch, lets have fun now because if I have to kill your squirming ass, only one of us will be having fun, and you can't have a party all by yourself can you?" Then its usually all laughs and good times from there.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christianity [Re: Funguy]
    #1698164 - 07/09/03 12:09 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

"Fundamentalist Christianity - fascinating. These people actually believe that the the world is 12,000 years old. Swear to God. Based on what? I asked them.

"Well we looked at all the people in the Bible and we added 'em up all the way back to Adam and Eve, their ages: 12,000 years."

Well how fucking scientific, okay. I didn't know that you'd gone to so much trouble. That's good. You believe the world's 12,000 years old?

"That's right."

Okay, I got one word to ask you, a one word question, ready?

"Uh-huh."

Dinosaurs.

You know the world is 12,000 years old and dinosaurs existed, they existed in that time, you'd think it would have been mentioned in the fucking Bible at some point.

"And lo Jesus and the disciples walked to Nazareth. But the trail was blocked by a giant brontosaurus... with a splinter in his paw. And O the disciples did run a shriekin': 'What a big fucking lizard, Lord!' But Jesus was unafraid and he took the splinter from the brontosaurus's paw and the big lizard became his friend.

"And Jesus sent him to Scotland where he lived in a loch for O so many years inviting thousands of American tourists to bring their fat fucking families and their fat dollar bills.

"And oh Scotland did praise the Lord. Thank you Lord, thank you Lord. Thank you Lord."

--Bill Hicks


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Christianity [Re: Funguy]
    #1698796 - 07/09/03 03:57 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Most of the world's religions are a way for man to reach God, but Christianity is the only one where God reached man.




No, not the only one. Check out the religion called Hinduism or Santana Dharma. They have lots of stories about instances where God reached man. Krishna is the most well-known example. Such a human incarnation of God is called an "avatar" in sanskrit. That's why the little pictures we use to represent ourselves on forums such as this one are also called avatars.


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Christianity [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1698993 - 07/09/03 07:06 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

"Just made me think that even the most distorted religions have some truth"

Religions aren't distorted, people's perception of them is.


So it's not distorted for Muslims and Arabs and all those middle eastern people to be killing each other over 'Holy' land?
I'd like to believe you, but there's been more blood spilled over religon than ANY other (unnatural) cause throughout history. More people die from the hands of religious people than drunk drivers...


first starting off, let me state that I am a Christian. But this does not mean that I am perfect. I constantly make mistakes. Christianity is not one of many paths. It is the path. Christ did not just "spread a universal word," he actually died for our sins. Anybody can accept Christ, from a serial killer to a little kid. I do not have all of the answers to (I assume) to your many questions. But think of it this way: Most of the world's religions are a way for man to reach God, but Christianity is the only one where God reached man.
I am open to any questions, comments, or even people thinking about becoming a Christian.
P.S.- I know that this site is a "drug" site. I do not believe in using plants just to get "high." I believe that God created these plants to be used as medicine, and as teachers.






Are you a new age Christian, or a fundamentalist Christian? You're attitude leads me to believe you're new age, especially with your reference to plants as teachers. What are your thoughts on the theory that mushrooms are from outer space, possibly from other planets? They are the only 4-something (I can't remember what the word is) organism on the planet, indicating they are foreign. See http://fusionanomaly.net/panspermia.html for details.


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christianity [Re: nubious]
    #1698999 - 07/09/03 07:25 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Digs wrote -
"The Christian ideal that Jesus was the son of God, can still hold if you say he was A son of god.....knowing that god's an everpresent force around us, not an old guy with a beard"


Jesus was not just a man, He is fully God and fully man.

Colossians 1:16-17
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Hebrews 1:2
... whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.



Funguy wrote -
"It is the path. Christ did not just "spread a universal word," he actually died for our sins. Anybody can accept Christ, from a serial killer to a little kid."

Jesus died for His elect people, and them only. They were given to Him by the Father from before the foundation of the world. As a result of this, in time they are convicted by the Spirit of their sinnership, of His righteousness, and the mysteries of the gospel are made known to them.
They are not saved because they have faith, they have faith because they are saved. They obey because He works in them to do His will. Conversion is a supernatural event, not a mere decision.


chunder wrote -
What about the cultures that existed before Christianity came along?

Salvation can not happen without coming under the hearing of the Word and the application of the Word by the Holy Spirit to the heart of the listener. Since many cultures have existed without any Word ever being preached, we know it was not God's intention to save them.

Romans 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.



MarktheGnostic writes many heretical statements which are too numerous to rebuke in a reasonable space. However I will address the Gnostic heresy with the Word of God.

John 20:27-28
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Luke 24:39-40
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.



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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Christianity [Re: Digs]
    #1699011 - 07/09/03 07:31 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I grew up as a catholic, and in time I became aware of the fallacies of all organized religions.
Now lets not confuse the teachings of Jesus Christ with Christian religion and the bible and all the jiba jaba that came after.
Jesus was a man that came to tech us, like many others before him Buda, Krishna etc.
Jesus came to teach us about love and compassion, but no one wants to listen, it is easier to make him into a "God" and idolize some one.
Jesus does not save you, but he taught you how to save your self.
Just like other grate masters.



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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Christianity [Re: Funguy]
    #1699094 - 07/09/03 08:25 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Christianity is not one of many paths. It is the path.



This is typical religon conditioning, I know this cuz prist use to try to condition me the same way, we monkes allways like to belive that our way is better than other monkeys ways.

Quote:

Christ did not just "spread a universal word," he actually died for our sins.




He did because if you take the time to study any other grate master in the past the all teach the same lesson.
Jesus did not die for our sins that is a nice fairy tale, he was murdered because the establishment in that time did not want some one telling people how to reach god with out a priest or a preacher.
There were other teachers in the past that made the monkeys so uncomfortable about there monkey ness that the got killed for it.
Socrates, Pythagoras etc.

Quote:

Anybody can accept Christ, from a serial killer to a little kid.




Is not a matter of accepting Christ that means nothing, The Christ is a state of transcendence of being it has been call Buddha also.
You become the Christ or Buddha, that does not mean you become Jesus or Sidarthta.

Quote:

But think of it this way: Most of the world's religions are a way for man to reach God, but Christianity is the only one where God reached man.




I am sorry to ask you but were did you get this from your preacher or priest?
Again this is typical monkey territorial arrogance behavior.
Explain me thru the teachings of Jesus how do you come to this conclusion?

At a younger age when I realize that most of the bible was jiba jaba, and made up stories most of the taken from other cultures, like the story of Moses floating on the river etc.
I became very dissolution and did not want to know anything about Christianity until I had the experience of the mushroom.
Then I so that what Jesus was trying to teach had nothing to do with religion Dogma as a matter of fact he was trying to get people way from it, but we monkeys have a way of distorting everything and we are experts in turning a good thing into a bad one.




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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity [Re: fivepointer]
    #1699121 - 07/09/03 08:47 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Your quotations DO NOT refer to the Gospel accounts of a resusitated corpus (except the one aimed at Thomas - but the Gospel of Thomas reveals no 'theology of the cross,' or a resusitated corpus). Your quotations are a response to the heresy of Docetism - which held that Jesus of Nazareth was not a fully human, fleshy being, but a heavenly being with an 'apparent' or 'phantom' body. Docetism is still held by some heretical Christians, and by Muslims who deny that a Prophet of God would ever be 'hung upon a tree,' or experience a shameful death. Jesus is held to be a prophet in Islam. One interpretation is that Simon the Cyrene was crucified in His place ("A certain man from Cyrene, Simon, the father of Rufus, was passing by on his way in from the country, and they forced him to carry the cross." Mark 15:22, NIV).

People like yourself require an extraction from the Matrix of religiosity in which you have been steeped. John Shelby Spong's writings may be as important a corrective to Christianity as Martin Luther's was. You need to understand what midrash is before you start judging my understanding. It is nice and simple to take words - even 'the 'Word' - at face value. But that simplicity doesn't mean 'without guile,' it means being a simpleton. Ancient Hebrews understood the highlighting of writings with miraculous intentions, but moderns like yourself do not. Do you not wonder why pillars of smoke and fire, or eye-covered wheels-within-wheels, or transfigured Biblical-Heroes-of-Light have not been 'seen' since the Scriptures were penned? Because these events were penned - not eye-witnessed historical events. My faith is no less for it. If you want to believe that high-salt content geological formations near the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are evidence of people who looked at the Wrath of God and were turned into pillars of salt - that is your choice.

It is not your place to call me or anyone a heretic just because your faith is not a living, growing faith but the mere adoption of dogmas. People who point a finger like you are, when given power and opportunity, are the ones who create persecutions, inquisitions, and the rest of the horrors that so-called 'christians' have visited on humankind. Until the Roman Catholic Church Fathers decided upon doctrines to further their cause - their power over the illiterate masses - their organized black-hooded sadists in charge of the 'Holy Inquisition,' there were many theological positions. You go study Clement of Alexandria, Origin, Tertullian (who invented the word 'Trinity') and you will find that their own contemporaries turned on them, called them heretics, and condemned them to death! These are some of the men who created the dogmas that you are brainwashed by. Don't question tradition - too difficult. But, if you ever choose to become a Christian FOR REAL - then learn humility, and get off of that ego-inflated, pathologically self-righteous trip you're on, and let God Almighty do the judging. After all, it's His prerogative - not yours.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity [Re: 2Experimental]
    #1699132 - 07/09/03 08:51 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Thank you for your kind words 2Experimental, but you flatter me. I may just be a frustrated writer with good sources.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity [Re: silversoul7]
    #1699153 - 07/09/03 09:08 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Actually, it is the Hebrew calendar of 5700+ years that supposedly dates back to the creation. Fundamentalists, who are NO fun at all, usually picture a Cecil B. DeMille 'The Bible' movie image of a perfectly formed male in a swirl of dust. This is the language of mythos, not scientific language. We are in a position today to understand scientifically AS WELL AS mythologically. The ancients didn't have a choice - myth was their only (intuitive) means for understanding, and wrote accordingly. Fundamentalists are fundamentally ignorant about this difference. The Biblical "Fiat Lux!" ("Let There Be Light!") can be seen scientifically as 'The Big Bang,' for example. Myth talks about the 'Why,' science talks about the 'How.'

In seminary, I met a couple of people who believed that God created fossils, as fossils - to test the faith of men against empirical evidence. This would truly be a demonic deity - a demiurge, as the gnostics called Him. One Fundamentalist insisted that the sun may only seem to be larger than the Earth, because Revelations says that the stars will fall at the end of time. We know that the Earth is not the center of the cosmos (post-Ptolemy, post-Copernicus, modern astrophysics) and that the Greek root 'aster' or star may mean getting pelted by asteroids, but this is very clearly a shared delusion. It is mental illness disguised once more as religious fundamentalism. Irrationality over rationality becomes a sick proof that one's faith in Scriptural infallibility is more accurate than senses and reason, and that this kind of faith means transcending the five senses and reason. In reality it is mass-psychosis.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity [Re: alakona]
    #1699156 - 07/09/03 09:11 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks alakona. I've had Russel's book on my shelf for years, but have never read it. I have found it edifying to read why intelligent and warm-hearted people HAVE become Christians.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisibletomatoes
you say tomatoe

Registered: 06/13/03
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Re: Christianity [Re: Digs]
    #1699159 - 07/09/03 09:15 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Digs said:  Just made me think that even the most distorted religions have some truth, kind of a good feeling :smile:




shared thought/feeling  :smile:

gomorrah

just a song of gomorrah
wonder what they did there
musta been a bad thing
to get shot down for

wonder how they blew it up
or if they burned it down
get out get out mister lot
don?t chew look around

don?t chew look around no . . .
don?t look after you
it?s not your business how its done
your lucky to get through

who gave you your orders
someone from the sky
i heard a voice inside my head
in the desert wind so dry

i heard a voice tellin? me to flee
the very same voice i always believe
said a lot trouble?s comin
but it don?t have to come to you

i?m tellin you so that you can tell
the rest what you?ve been through

you?re a good, upstanding man
a credit to the flock
if you don?t face straight ahead
you know, you could not take the shock

blew the city off the map
there?s nothing there but fire
wife of lot got turned to salt
cause she looked behind her . . .


Garcia/Hunter



 


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christianity [Re: fivepointer]
    #1699223 - 07/09/03 10:03 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Jesus died for His elect people, and them only. They were given to Him by the Father from before the foundation of the world. As a result of this, in time they are convicted by the Spirit of their sinnership, of His righteousness, and the mysteries of the gospel are made known to them.
They are not saved because they have faith, they have faith because they are saved. They obey because He works in them to do His will. Conversion is a supernatural event, not a mere decision.






Jesus was meant to die for anybody that will accept him. He knew that he was going to die, the one for the many. Contrary to popular belief, God does not send people to Hell. We have a choice to accept or reject Christ. I am not here to force my beliefs on anybody, but those who want to hear (or read), listen to what I am saying. Many terrible things have been done in the name of "Christianity," such as witch hunts, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, etc. Even today, many so called "Christians" are not Christians. It is estimated that 80% of the Church is unsaved. To me, that is terrible, what kind of example are we setting for those who watch our every move? That is why Christians are seen as a bunch of hypocrites. Look at the people in the Bible, they constantly made mistakes. David committed adultery, and murder, but he was truly repentant and God forgave him. Saul murdered Christians with a gusto, but through the power of God he became a Christian himself. Don't let the actions of a few cloud your heart. You have to have faith to be saved, the faith that Christ did die for you, and rose again. Please ponder what I am saying...


--------------------

OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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Invisiblechunder
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Re: Christianity [Re: Funguy]
    #1699298 - 07/09/03 10:38 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

"More people die from the hands of religious people than drunk drivers..."

Which is a reiteration of my stance that RELIGIONS aren't distored, people's perception of them is. Each holy text can be interpretted and practiced in an infinite number of ways. If you choose to percieve your religion as a reason to cultivate hate or prejudice, then that is your distorted perception. There is always another end to the spectrum, which we can freely choose to accept as our own paradigm.

fivepointer, listen to Markos. Look deeper. Peace and good luck.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1699431 - 07/09/03 11:41 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

It is not your place to call me or anyone a heretic




Excuse me for butting in here, but please don't argue about "heresy". It's such a silly concept. Remember what Jesus once said:

Quote:

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy
shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy
Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.




And as far as I know, that's the only hard rule that Jesus presented, ever.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Christianity [Re: Funguy]
    #1699448 - 07/09/03 11:47 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

It is estimated that 80% of the Church is unsaved.




How many percent do you think are unsaved among the people who believe that Krishna is God and human at the same time?


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OfflineNoviseer
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Re: Christianity [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1699502 - 07/09/03 12:06 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I wrote this to my fundamentalist christian friend over AIM when I was extremely baked. We always debate but we're friends and manage to get along despite opposite belief systems.

Conservative Fundamentalist Christians currently in power. With my words immortalized by the silent recording machines of ashcroft, I say to you now: You will not get away with this. To form this message around the everpresent eschatology of your worldview: One day the skies will part, and Jesus Christ will come flying down to dispel... understanding and love on the world, the whole world. Buddah will be on his right, Mohammad on his left, with every god anyone has ever imagined. Because they're all manifestations of ecstasy, they're all the same person. The one that you can't learn about from loose interpretations of various conflicting texts. This God is an enigma, easy to find, yet oh so difficult. I can't imagine being a surfer, having seen what i've seen, and believing in such a selective, malevolent deity. The Great Spirit loves everyone on earth, he does not care what culture they come from, what spiritual traditions they have been trained to follow. He will heal those who greet him. He will teach you gently and carefully that you were misled on earth. He will point out to you that hating gays is as much an abberation as hating blacks was in the 50's. Culturally acceptable during that time period, but overwhelmingly wrong from one dimension up. God will speak this to you, and show you the true path. He will show you the hints he left us, in the trees, in the streams, in the nude body of a female, he will explain to you what they mean: that the world is made of love. YOu will weep with the realisation, but the Spirit will soothe and forgive you.


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_______________________________________________________________
namaste said:
no flamz in da ODD, if you got nothing to contribute then keep yo lips zipped
_________________________________________________________________


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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: Christianity [Re: Digs]
    #1699536 - 07/09/03 12:20 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Christianity as we know and lo|(ve/athe) it today is at least two major steps removed from JC's teachings (whoever he was - enlightened is a good explanation.)

Step 1 is Paul, who took over the early Christian church, and battled the apostles over official dogma. His version is quite different from apparent "direct" quotes from JC (even in the official Bible).

Step 2 is the council of ....of....Niceria(?) which ...I think was 300AD ish. The Christian religion (as you know) was adopted by the Romans as the official state religion, but continued to splinter (and contained heretic groups) until this council sat down to hash out the official line of theology (some of the heretics believed stuff that was threatening to the state etc). There was a great deal of compromise, and eventually an official creed was ratified. Also they decided which books were to be canonized in the Bible.

If you're at all interested in this stuff, look for early Gnostic writings - they were groups who claimed to be uninfluenced by Paul's apostasy. The Gnostic scriptures is a good book which contained several of the books that the above mentioned council *didn't* include, because they contradicted the official line.

Anyone who is a mainstream Christian today should realize that their truth comes from Paul & Rome - so you'd be better off calling yourself a Paulian or a Roman, than anything else.


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christianity [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1699600 - 07/09/03 12:44 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I'm going to do a little research, and I'll post my rebuttal in a couple of days. Feel free to pm me for a more personal story of how I became a Christian. Love and peace!


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OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Christianity [Re: Digs]
    #1699651 - 07/09/03 12:59 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Cool man, with that kind of a home base, I think you could learn much more easily than those who have to unlearn and drop so many preconceived notions. A very prosperous home base you have, indeed.


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Christianity [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1699762 - 07/09/03 01:26 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)




"Step 2 is the council of ....of....Niceria(?) which ...I think was 300AD ish. The Christian religion (as you know) was adopted by the Romans as the official state religion, but continued to splinter (and contained heretic groups) until this council sat down to hash out the official line of theology (some of the heretics believed stuff that was threatening to the state etc). There was a great deal of compromise, and eventually an official creed was ratified. Also they decided which books were to be canonized in the Bible. "




Ive heard this before but dont know what to think of it, the idea that the christian religion as it is widely accepted today was basicly created and shaped to fit how the romans saw fit is big concept to swallow for many. I think it had much vallidity though

0.02$


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Christianity [Re: 2Experimental]
    #1699805 - 07/09/03 01:40 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

the idea that the christian religion as it is widely accepted today was basicly created and shaped to fit how the romans saw fit is big concept to swallow for many.




Yeah, but it does explain a lot of the murders committed or instigated by the Roman Catholic Church during the last 1700 years. And the fact why it took 400 years before a Pope could admit that the Catholic Church had been wrong for centuries, and finally acknowledged that Galileo was right about the planets and the Sun.

Now would any servants of God with any pretentions of credibility stick their head up their asses for so long, and refuse to recognize the true form of God's creation for 400 years?

Not likely.

The miracle of Christianity is that the message from Jesus still survived, despite the Catholic Church and all its clones. That's very impressive!


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Christianity [Re: 2Experimental]
    #1699857 - 07/09/03 02:02 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Jesus was not just a man, He is fully God and fully man.

Did he not say that we are all gods?

In reality it is mass-psychosis.

I love you Mark :laugh:


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity [Re: nubious]
    #1699901 - 07/09/03 02:17 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

*Blush*


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity [Re: Funguy]
    #1699934 - 07/09/03 02:29 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Would you kill men over the Filioque? Would you go to war and kill to defend one position or the other as to whether: 1) The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, or 2) the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son, Who proceeds from the Father? Would you fight to the death to defend this theological argument? This is what divided the Catholic Church from the Orthodox Church. Is there a real question here? Is there any answer to an intellectual speculation about the Divine Economia - the Inner Life of the Godhead - about which only God knows? Is this important to the functioning spiritual life of human beings?

We Know only this: Love God and Love One Another. THIS is the true Gnosis. This is all we Know. Point to your Self. Where are you pointing? Is it your Heart. There is where He Art.  :heartpump:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (07/09/03 02:32 PM)


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: Christianity [Re: Funguy]
    #1699948 - 07/09/03 02:36 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Most of the world's religions are a way for man to reach God, but Christianity is the only one where God reached man.




didnt god reveal its existance to muhammed through revelation?

but, yeah i guess christianity is (ethno?)-centric, so....we'll just disregard islam and hinduism.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christianity [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1700066 - 07/09/03 03:20 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

"It is not your place to call me or anyone a heretic"

It is the Christian's duty to defend the faith and reprove false doctrine. Doctrine does not cause salvation. Salvation is conditioned soley on Christ's work alone on the cross for His elect people. Correct doctrine is a result of regeneration and is evidence of salvation. Those who resist and twist true doctrine show themselves to be reprobates.

It would be unloving not to correct a person who proclaims false doctrine.

Titus 3:10-11
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

2 Timothy 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.




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Invisiblechunder
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Re: Christianity [Re: fivepointer]
    #1700102 - 07/09/03 03:33 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

"Correct doctrine is a result of regeneration and is evidence of salvation."

So 'salvation' must come before the process of understanding scripture?


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christianity [Re: chunder]
    #1700220 - 07/09/03 04:25 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

"So 'salvation' must come before the process of understanding scripture?"

The correct term would be "regeneration" must come before the scriptures can be understood.

Fallen man is at complete enmity with God in his soul.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The Holy Spirit must open and apply the Word to the heart.

John 3:3 3:8
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The Holy Spirit's work is only known after the fact.

John 3:8
The wind (greek for Spirit) bloweth where it listeth (wills), and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Those born of God are not born by the will of the flesh, but of God.

John 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Lydia had her heart opened and then she understood.

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

The many Gentiles heard the Word and understood, why, because they were ordained to eternal life. This shows the cause - ordination.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Why do some not believe? Because they are not of His sheep. His sheep were given to Him by the Father and shall never perish.

John 10:26-29
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.



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Invisiblealakona
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Re: Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1700274 - 07/09/03 04:47 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

tis nothing. read it, im sure youll enjoy it. its full of great points and thinkings.


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making you want to be a better person since 2008. 


TrippinTeddy said:
sometimes when I'm raping a bitch, I like to tickle her ribs and under neath her arms, and I say "loosen up bitch, lets have fun now because if I have to kill your squirming ass, only one of us will be having fun, and you can't have a party all by yourself can you?" Then its usually all laughs and good times from there.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity [Re: fivepointer]
    #1700447 - 07/09/03 05:39 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

The Nag Hammadi codices were not even discovered until 1945. Included among them was the complete Gospel of Thomas. I recommend that you read some of Princeton scholar Elaine Pagel's works ('The Gnostic Gospels,' or 'The Gnostic Paul'). I bought her last book this very day - 'Beyond Belief.'

The Church Fathers who edited the other Christian books out of the canon, now referred to as Apocryphal writings, were at something of a loss - a great loss - because all of the information was not available. The Gospel of John might not have made it into the canon because it is Gnostic in flavor, and the Revelations of John is only one of several apocalyptic pieces that the editors decided to include. Feeling wild and crazy that day I suppose.

Just because Paul talks down those so-called Gnostics who were 'puffed up' with a kind of Knowledge, which led some to the conclusion that once saved, one could be as libertarian as one wanted, does not condemn all of the movements referred to generally as Gnosticism. Pagel's Gnostic Paul shows line-by-line how Gnostic the Biblical Paul's words are. Some Gnostics rejected Paul, others embraced him utterly.

Just what constitutes heresy - for you - has been carefully honed and handed down, to all of us, by these very human Churchmen (not women, despite Clement of Alexandria's position that women could become priests). It was THEIR decisions that determined what writings YOU could consider to be the Word of God. Their misogynistic mentalities, unBiblical celibate priesthood ideals, and their political agendas for controlling the masses all entered into what ancient writings would henceforth be taken as Holy Writ. Now take the Protestant mentality back to the beginning, and protest if one will, that with much more information at one's modern disposal, every man of faith ought to be able to determine doctrine. And as Clement said, true Gnosis is not apart from one's faith experience.

As for me - I was predominantly a Johannine Christian until I discovered Thomas, and it is this Gospel that speaks to MY faith experience. It is the Gospel of Thomas that describes MY experience of Christ moreso than the other canonical books or Nag Hammadi writings. Thomas may indeed be the earliest fragments of an oral tradition that preceded even Mark's source. If I reserve the right to come to my own, free-willed decisions, based upon my own scholarship and conscience, I do not necessarily hold 'wrong views' (heresies), based on dated and incomplete early Christian scholarship. As Archbishop J.S. Spong titled one of his books: 'Christianity Must Change or Die.'


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1701785 - 07/10/03 04:16 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I reviewed some of John Spong's writings. He is a manifest heretic who denies every core doctrine of the faith. Some heresies are subtle, his are just off the wall.


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Christianity [Re: fivepointer]
    #1701873 - 07/10/03 06:31 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Fivepointer I have a question for you.

Have you ever done mushrooms ?

I bet you haven?t.

I find it very strange that a bible quoter will hang around in a forum like the shroomery with so many "heretics"

Unless your intension is to cast out "Satan" from this forum.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Christianity [Re: LOBO]
    #1702665 - 07/10/03 01:12 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

the question of "who is the heretic" has shaped christianity from its beginnings as a messianic offshoot of pharasiac & essenic & zealot movmements within judaism (not the mention the not-so subtle disagreements between saul/paul's evangelizing to the "god-fearing" gentiles (who were non-jews who accepted the concept of monotheism as presented in synagogues (between 5 and 10 % of people living in the roman empire of that time may have been jewish !)  but who had not yet committed to briss and kashrut (circumcision & dietary laws) required for full admission into a jewish congregation/community...
(these were paul's targets, heh...) VS the jewish messianic christian community that struggled and perhaps flourished (& being led by "james the just, brother of jesus...)
until the great diaspora & destruction of the temple (& the last stand at the masada fortress by a zealot/essene remnant...) & the scattering of the pharisees, sadducees, zealots, (the essenes were alread holed up at qumran) and the folk of the new covenant (most of whom fled the city before the romans burned it to the ground in like 67 c.e. (= a.d. hehheh...), & the family and followers of their annointed one, the crucified carpenter rabbi, their massiach (messiah = annointed = christ), yeshai, yashua, jesus of nazareth ("nazorim" means "the pure ones")...
and then gnostics & other movements, the establishment of trinitarinism as a basic tenet of christian orthodoxy (= "right-thinking"!) & "canonical" scriptures being selected around the time of constantine's rule in the east, the the churchwide councils at nicea, and the adoption of creedal statements of faith (apostles, nicean, athanasian) (& non-canonical scriptures being destroyed (or hidden, as in nag hammadi & qumran (well, qumran may have been destroyed as a potential messianic potential hotbed by the forces of the empire when judaism was no loger well-tolerated by rome (even afer the 67-71 struggles, there was another jewish uprising in like 130-ish) damascus, alexandria, & other places...
and the change from being targets of (roman empire) state-sponsored persecution to becoming not only "the" state religion (under constantine) to becoming mandatory for everybody except the jews (& persecuting the jews, off and on, for the next 1750 years :frown: )...
and the elimination of old & established pagan religions, as well as other "mystery-cult" religions (e.g. attis, mithras, the kore/persephone grain/death/rebirth/psychedelic cult at eleusis, manes, apollonius, even old simon magus, heh...) and other more regional volk religions, like the nordic wotan/odin clut, and the celts, and the druids, and the women's ancient earth-mother/goddess  cults going back to the time of the earliest migrations of homonids out of mother africa, tens and hundreds of thousands of years ago :smile: ...
and like markos said, ~hiya MtG :wink: ~ --->the great schism between the orthodox (greek) catholics and the western (roman) catholics over the nature of the origin of the third person of the triune god, "ol' spooky" ooops... j/k ... i mean the holy spirit (auf deutsch,  das (?) heilige gheist) and then the encounter with islam & the several crusades... and the discovery of the new world (& it's inhabitants, "los indios" (which could be read as "the children of god") and all the wonderful and horrible things that happened when the peoples of europe "discovered" the land and peoples of the americas (or, "turtle island" )...
and serious problems in western europe --- movements to put common language ("vernacular") copies of the christian scriptures into the hands of literate laity, the flourishing of many secret lodges & esoteric brotherhoods & mystical cabals, the re-introdution (after  a thousand years of suppression by churchg authorities) of greek and roman "classical" authors into european philosphical thought & the first sparkings of humanism....
and growing criticism from members of the clergy & universities (jan hus, meister eckhart, martin luther, calvin, zwingli... which eventual exploded into the "protestant" reformation (& the roman-cahtolic counterreformation) and the missionary movement(s) which took the christian gospel to the ends of the earth...
and the many variations of christianity that have come out of the americas (especially the united states, but carribean & brazilian too :wink: ...)
and here we are today...
biblical scholarship (the search for the "historical jesus"), growing acceptance of science (some version of darwin for speciation/evolution, accepting the physicists' universe age of 10s of billions years, the geologists' fossil record for earth's age as billions of years (& old sol, too), & man as resident for 10s to 100s of thousnd years, & hominds around for a few million (kiss cousin chimps goodbye ummmm 3-5 m.y.a. ???), comparative mytholgy, growing interfaith dialog, more awareness of the jewishness of jesus...
~
not every person who is "christian" is "fundamentalist"...
~
and not everyone who is christian holds that it must be "literally & historically true" that jesus was the unique incarnation of the universal god out of a virgin jewess by the holy spirit, dying as atonement for humanity's sins, bodily returned from a criminal's death by crucifixion to comfort (& confront...) his followers & ascend to sit on a throne with his father...
but then again, some do...
and some say the words and try to grok their meaning...
and some say the words and don't bother trying to figure it out...
and some don't say the words (in the "creed") at all
and some have extra texts to study (catechisms, concordats, synodical statements, whatever)...
and some have extra "interpretations" or "scriptures" (swedenborg's stuff, mary baker eddy, joseph smith...
and some have no formal views (quakers) or mystical mix (unity)  or open theology (unitarian/universalist) or practicing gnostic churches, essenic groups, (markos told me about a buddhist christian/essenic/manichean/magdalenian group :wink: ...)
~
sitting here with mark twain, i shoot this your way... the development of christianity as a religion is reminiscent of the development of twain's _the adventures of hucklebery finn_ as a novel
(---hehheh --- interesting character & p.o.v., strong tale-telling, profound moral question posed and addressed, mold-shattering to pre-existing forms, & potential greatness, but spoiled by unsatisfactory resolution...
j/k...
~
~
oh, and books/authors...
gosh, we've done this before, haven't we?
ummmm,
well...
hugh schonfield"s _the passover plot_ (& the jesus party & those incredible christians, & several more, all well-written, informative, enaging, and quite, ummm... plausible...
morton hunt's _jesus the magician_ puts jesus in the class of mediterranean wonderworkers such as simon magus, & apollonius, etc...)
sprong's books on how to read the scriptures, & elaine pagels' books on gnosticism & early christinaity, are well worth the read...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity [Re: gnrm23]
    #1702838 - 07/10/03 01:50 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

WOW! Love ya gnrm23!


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity [Re: fivepointer]
    #1702950 - 07/10/03 02:27 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

And you m'lad, are still attempting to maintain the magical thinking of childhood which is a stage of human development in each individual, and which characterized even adult psychology in a much earlier age. You refuse to open your own eyes to the world, have absolutely no idea about what Reverend Spong is about since you only read about him from - maybe even from a completely biased position - and therefore you will continue to attempt to think in an archaic mindset. One cannot in all truth, think like an ancient Hebrew in the 21st century. You do not have any real idea how a pre-scientific, pre-Copernian, illiterate 1st century Judean would have thought. You know too much more.

I believe in God. I have practiced the Presence of God for decades. I have witnessed very specific petitionary prayer answered with Exactly the complex request. I experience synchronistic phenomenon all the time. I listen to my dreams. I pray in Jesus' Name, by the power of the Holy Spirit to the One True God. And if the crucified body of an obscure 1st century man, who the Romans recorded as "a certain Chrestus" [chrestus=kind], was thrown into a common grave, to be devoured by wild dogs like the other tens of thousands of crucified people - my faith is no less strong. I do not need the PR writngs of the Gospel authors, with blatently contradictory items, written decades after Jesus was executed. It was not 3 days between Friday evening and Sunday; who was at the big old fancy tomb? Depends on the account. Did Judas Iscariot [the Sicarri were Jewish assasins, which is probably where this character came from] hang himself, or did he fall and have his guts spill out of him? Well, which was it? Both?

Eye-witness, historical accounts? No. If you need material, historical, really-happened-on-a-Sunday-morning event...then YOU are a spiritual materialist. YOU are the heretic which places a resusitated corpus in an idolatrous position. Jesus' Ascension - later a separate cosmic event from resurrection - the physical body of Jesus prepared for takeoff...to where? A 1st century cosmology that put the Earth at the center of the universe, with the Light of Heaven shining through holes in the dome of the sky, above which sat God in a throne? A 3-tiered universe with Hell
somewhere in the bowels of the Earth - borrowed from Hellenistic mythology - from Hades is what YOU are going to believe in? Try to think for yourself. Try to understand and distill out the meaning in the Biblical language, so that you truly enter the Body of Christ - the Mystical Body of Christ - the Mystery of Eternal Life. WAKE UP man! You're reading midrash. You're reading mythos. It's still truth.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1702993 - 07/10/03 02:42 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Hi, I'm still studying for my big post. But has anyone heard about the alien theory of the Bible? Like the Nephilim in Genesis, the Pillar of Smoke and Fire, the fiery chariot that took Elijah into Heaven, the vision of Ezekiel. There are other things too.


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OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1703035 - 07/10/03 02:51 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Amen to that.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Christianity [Re: fivepointer]
    #1703338 - 07/10/03 04:25 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
I reviewed some of John Spong's writings. He is a manifest heretic who denies every core doctrine of the faith. Some heresies are subtle, his are just off the wall.




Myself I have adapted to many of Rev. Spong's beliefs and I am not even Christian - but Muslim.

Personally, I do not believe there is such thing as heresy. To me it is lingo from the Middle ages, a term that is thrown around that only divides Christianity as opposed to uniting it.

It is the same within my religion, when radical Sunnis will call Shi'ites kaffir, or vise versa. It's insanity, I tell you; but what's beautiful about it is that God loves us all. To Him, it's just His children not getting along.



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity [Re: Funguy]
    #1706002 - 07/11/03 01:16 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

'Chariots of the Gods' stuff. May as well be 'Star Gate' (the movie - [Egyptian-looking aliens]). Materialistic, rationalistic explanations for Transcendental Reality conveyed by the mythic-archetypal psyches of humans. The Transcendental language of the ancients was mythological, or mytho-poetic. Later, it became philosophical (particularly the Indian and Greek mentalities, and the Greeks may well have been influenced by the Hindus and Buddhists. The Cadeusus of Hermes-Mercury is a model of the Chakras of India, for example. The Greeks used the psychedelic ergot-based Kykeon, the Hindus used the [probably] mushroomic Soma even earlier, for examples). Inner visionary states and mystical states have always informed humans of Transcendental Realms. God is of an Infinite Order of magnitude, so that both Greek myth and Hebrew Scriptures say that to behold Deity in 'undisguised' or 'Universal' form, is to die.

The 3 Books of Enoch, found in the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha (see James H. Charlesworth's 'The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha', Vol. 1) speak about the Nephilim as Watchers, or Fallen Angels who lust after human women, teach them the arts of enchantment (magick, cosmetics), and teach metallurgy for making weapons to men. The theophany of Elijah is a Vision behind the 'Merkaba' [ba=soul, ka=spiritual double in ancient Egyptian belief] or 'throne mysticism' of the Kabbalah [again, ka and ba]. A careful analysis of the features of OT theophanies (like the Ophanim, or eye-covered 'wheel-within-wheel'), yields profound symbols and concepts, such as omnipresence in this instance. I believe these theophanies are profound Visions ("Mysterium Tremendum et Fascinans" - Tremendous and Fascinating Mystery) projected outwardly from the psyche onto space-time. It is important to note, that amidst all the evidence discovered from ancient Egypt, there is none which speaks of Hebrew slaves. This used to disturb me greatly (I know Bob Brier of TLC, mummy-making fame - a well-known Egyptologist) because it renders the entire Exodus of the Hebrews, plagues called up by Moses, as non-historical. That would include pillars of smoke and fire, parting of the Red Sea, and all those Cecil B. DeMille images that the masses have long imagined to have been physical, historical events. The pilgrimage or journey from spiritual bondage to freedom, is THE universal spiritual story, how ever and by whomever it is written or told.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1708010 - 07/12/03 06:44 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

"It is not your place to call me or anyone a heretic"

It is the Christian's duty to defend the faith and reprove false doctrine. Doctrine does not cause salvation. Salvation is conditioned soley on Christ's work alone on the cross for His elect people. Correct doctrine is a result of regeneration and is evidence of salvation. Those who resist and twist true doctrine show themselves to be reprobates.

It would be unloving not to correct a person who proclaims false doctrine.





I think Mark put it best, and we're going to have to run with that, because I sure as Jesus don't have the words to describe how blissfully mislead to come across...


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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