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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment
    #1505975 - 04/29/03 10:33 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

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OfflineAmnesiac
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: World Spirit]
    #1506050 - 04/29/03 11:07 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I think that the bible is a great story with great lessons, which is unfortunately misinterpreted to horrible depths. The majority of Christians take on the label with a very weak understanding of what it is they are getting into.

I didn't intend for my post earlier to be an attack on you, just a comment made out of frustration, not anger, towards any Christian who feels the need to associate with a group of people whose majority consists of following sheep-types. I don't mean to insult you, as it's clear to me that you're an intelligent person.

As for the concept of hell as described in the bible, I think that it is an entirely figurative place that is arrived at mentally/psychologically when the wrong choices are made. Thousands of years of scriptures being misinterpereted has led to Christianity sort of becoming a joke to some non-affiliated spiritual people. Unfortunately, Christianity has been tainted horribly by the ignorant masses. Because the overwhelming majority of Christians are not as intelligent as you are, people like you are getting a bad rap because you do use the title "Christian" to represent yourself.

I apologize if you feel you were lumped into a category of ignorants, but I cannot ignore the fact that your religion has been perverted to the point of being more of a means to control the masses using fear, and providing people with an easy ride through a spiritual journey which is anything but simple. I can't ignore what has become of the Christian religion, which is why I think an intelligent person such as yourself would be better off to abandon the association, the label of Christianity. To me it seems that you are clinging to something which will soon become irrelevant to the greater awareness of spiritual understanding, which needs no classification or title.

In my post in your other threat, I was more curious as to why you choose to call yourself a Christian as opposed to going without a label, and not about the details of hell.

My apologies for any offence.


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Here we are, in these bodies, on this planet in an endless universe. This is not the extent of who we are... merely an extension of who we really are.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: Amnesiac]
    #1506099 - 04/29/03 11:29 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

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Invisiblebert
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: World Spirit]
    #1506126 - 04/29/03 11:39 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

MarktheGnostic made a comment in the other thread that really struck me. He said he 'doesn't hang with atheists'. What about yourself? I have visited some Christian forums and it's not my imagination when I see a lot of anti-non-Christian sentiments there. I've talked with Christians in real life and had some literally walk away when I started asking questions about their faith. With the majority of Americans being Christian, this worries me.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1506136 - 04/29/03 11:43 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

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Invisiblebert
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: World Spirit]
    #1506141 - 04/29/03 11:47 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I will definitely hang with a Christian as long as he respects me and doesn't try to convert me or turn me in to authorities because of drug use (bad experience). This is an open invite to Mark as well. We need to not let religion, or lack thereof, impede the progress of the acquisition of knowledge.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1506158 - 04/29/03 11:55 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

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Edited by Enter (04/29/03 11:57 PM)


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Invisiblebert
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: World Spirit]
    #1506172 - 04/30/03 12:04 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I am a former Jew but turned away from organized religion several years ago.
In your post I think you mean ' doesn't have to result in bloody murder and name calling'. As social creatures we must understand our differences, but hopefully as enlightened (not neccessarily in a literal sense) beings we can learn to overcome them.


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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1506175 - 04/30/03 12:06 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Me? Oh nothing. I'm just moderating the forum.

Cheers,


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1506181 - 04/30/03 12:09 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

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Invisiblebert
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: World Spirit]
    #1506202 - 04/30/03 12:16 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I felt that it was coloring my view of reality in a way that was preventing me from seeking true knowledge. As far as faith goes, I have more faith in myself than in any amount of religious text, be it Jewish, Christian, Bhuddist, etc. etc. I look at them all as merely references. I look at them with skepticism just as I view scientific literature with skepticism. I have had what I thought were 'religious experiences' from various large does psychedelic experiences, and for several weeks I was firmly convinced there was a God. But after awhile, I made the decision to detach myself from that in order to view things as objectively as possible. My parents are extremely spiritual people, yet I love them just the same and do not look down at them in any way.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1506210 - 04/30/03 12:18 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

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Offlinesocratesmind
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: World Spirit]
    #1506220 - 04/30/03 12:24 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

a good book that had answers to reaffirm some of my religous standings and such were the book Ishmael. good read regardless. gives some nice twists on adam and eve, also cain and abel's stories.


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Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded.
- Abraham Lincoln: Speech in the Illinois House of Representatives, Dec 18, 1840.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: World Spirit]
    #1506225 - 04/30/03 12:26 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I think this Carlos Castenada book I'm reading is alot more spiritual than the bible. Probably more truthful as well...


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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: socratesmind]
    #1506229 - 04/30/03 12:27 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: Grav]
    #1506884 - 04/30/03 07:42 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Casteneda 's works are fictional. I've known this since November 1st, 1974 - exactly - when my former professor Dr. Bob Brier (often on TLC, making mummies - a renouned Egyptologist and co-publisher with JB Rhine, the parapsychologist) returned from Harry Houdini's grave on Halloween night. Casteneda was there, among other occult notables, and Bob told me personally that Don Juan Matus was fictional. Brier is a reputable scholar, whom I have been in recent communication with, and whose words I take as completely trustworthy.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1506909 - 04/30/03 08:01 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I have to work with atheistic adults, who fail to impart ANY spiritual knowledge to the adolescents who are in my charge as a clinical counselor. The teachers and administrators are likewise, people who seem to be more interested in whether they can buy a BMW or Mercedes on an educator's salary. Now this is merely a cross-section of working-class people in South Florida, so when I want to 'hang' with people socially; to have folks sit in my living room and talk, drink decent wine and listen to fine music, I want a foundation upon which to base our discussions.

Life is a trip. My home IS the setting, and I contribute to the mind-set. This is how I enjoy life (the trip), so even though the world is full of the crudely materialistic - whether from survival needs or from greed - I choose not to socialize with them. I have met extremely wealthy people in my age group, whose outer lives are filled with expensive toys and 'things' but whose inner lives are so impoverished that they literally have nothing to give of themselves. Neither will they turn to the inner. Wives collect diamonds, men collect sports cars, and they are divorcing and miserable. Most do not know what Joy is like, only fleeting amusement which quickly becomes old. They cannot see through the eyes of their children, who they groom to be as materialistic and empty as they are.

I have been 'friendly with,' that is, I have visited/been visited by/gone out with two professing, adult atheists over the past half dozen years. Waste of time. One flipped out after 3 years when my Lady asked him to share something of himself, and stormed out of our home. The other atheist - an intellectual - gave a dissertation on why not to say "God bless you" when he sneezes, and who had a serious woody for my Lady. Do I need any more of these beings in the sanctuary of my home? I think not.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (04/30/03 12:34 PM)


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Invisiblebert
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1507919 - 04/30/03 04:06 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

You say you are a practicing clinical counselor yet you do not view all people with objectivity. This worries me a great deal. You have had some bad experiences with atheists, and based upon that you are judging all atheists as materialists? Absurd and shame on you. I and my friends are all atheists and we are some of the least materialist people you'll come across.
I've had plenty of bad experiences with Christians in the past but I try not to let that shade my experiences in the future. You seem to have a very stereotypical and bizarre view of people with no faith in God. There's more to life than just religion. There's more to Atheists than just Mercedes'. I'd like to think we can be friends on this forum, because, frankly I think that's an important function of this forum, to come to mutual understandings and expand out repetoir of knowledge and acceptance.



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OfflineAmnesiac
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1508523 - 04/30/03 06:58 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Some people affiliated to religion, and I say "some" tend to lump atheists into a category that includes inner-emptiness and materialism. Athiests are capable of wisdom, self-improvement, and even spiritual evolution, provided they are consciously or even subconsciously aware of the concept of a greater energy source. Something that's not hard for anyone to understand...

Even if an athiest can't imagine a higher state of consciousness and oneness with the universe, they still might actually be moving in a forward direction spiritually through their daily practices, thought processes and morals.

The way I see it is that a good, honest person who is kind and respectful to others and doesn't hurt anyone IS moving in a positive, growthful direction.

I personally am neither religious nor atheist.

Religious people often try to convince me that I am atheist, and atheists often try to convince me that I am religious. Ha!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1508621 - 04/30/03 07:35 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I do not need to, or try to be clinically 'objective' with my friends. Friendship is a special constellation of attachments, freely experienced (unanalyzed, uncensored) emotions, intersubjective 'closeness' and generally a very spontaneous mode of being-in-the-world, as Existentialists say. I select my friends on the basis of similar values, not on their looks, social standing, economic standing, profession, or for what they have or what they can do for me. Similar values mean, among other things, ethical concerns (I don't hang with robbers, theives, rapists, molesters, wife-beaters, addicts, and a lot of other unsavory people - although I've treated all of these types including later murderers).

Materialism is not only holding material things in the highest regard in one's hierarchy of values, it also reduces the [Arisotelian] Absolute Cause of existence (God) to one or more Efficient Causes. There is no Transcendental Reality that is acknowledged; no teleology or purposefulness to the manifest universe or the sentient beings within it - which transforms down to mean that life has no Ultimate Meaning.

This is close to the core of my identity - meaningfulness - Ultimate meaningfulness in the microcosm which is my life, and in the macrocosmic universe. This means that the atheist is motivated by purely secular and mundane thoughts and feelings, and is him/herself cut off from the loftiest, higher chakra states of affect and cognition; thus [s]he is content to live as the lower half of a 'centauric' being [to paraphrase Ken Wilber]. My psychospiritual passions for mysticism, alchemy, yoga, and religion, not to mention the central importance of my own faith will be completely unimportant, irrelevant and meaningless to the atheist. Insofar as my passions exemplify that which is closest to my heart - my heart is irrelevant to said atheist.

I can work with, or work on virtually everyone, but those whom I choose to love as friends - including my Lady who is my closest friend, must have the capacity to share some of my deepest love - each with their own capacity. It is difficult and frustrating when I do not share the values of people whom I still socialize with, and who care nothing for my values. We remain on the surface of things - literally, things, like hurricane shutters and where to buy jewelry for my Lady at the best price. I play with their little kids, but I don't want or have kids of my own because parenting is not my path or my interest. Yet to a couple of our friends, their children are THE main value in their existence. They are not atheists, but, 'I' buy them books with which to answer their childrens' spiritual questions. We like them, but [howsoever selfish this may seem] they cannot soar with us.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (04/30/03 09:41 PM)


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