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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment
    #1505975 - 04/29/03 08:33 PM (21 years, 25 days ago)

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OfflineAmnesiac
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: World Spirit]
    #1506050 - 04/29/03 09:07 PM (21 years, 25 days ago)

I think that the bible is a great story with great lessons, which is unfortunately misinterpreted to horrible depths. The majority of Christians take on the label with a very weak understanding of what it is they are getting into.

I didn't intend for my post earlier to be an attack on you, just a comment made out of frustration, not anger, towards any Christian who feels the need to associate with a group of people whose majority consists of following sheep-types. I don't mean to insult you, as it's clear to me that you're an intelligent person.

As for the concept of hell as described in the bible, I think that it is an entirely figurative place that is arrived at mentally/psychologically when the wrong choices are made. Thousands of years of scriptures being misinterpereted has led to Christianity sort of becoming a joke to some non-affiliated spiritual people. Unfortunately, Christianity has been tainted horribly by the ignorant masses. Because the overwhelming majority of Christians are not as intelligent as you are, people like you are getting a bad rap because you do use the title "Christian" to represent yourself.

I apologize if you feel you were lumped into a category of ignorants, but I cannot ignore the fact that your religion has been perverted to the point of being more of a means to control the masses using fear, and providing people with an easy ride through a spiritual journey which is anything but simple. I can't ignore what has become of the Christian religion, which is why I think an intelligent person such as yourself would be better off to abandon the association, the label of Christianity. To me it seems that you are clinging to something which will soon become irrelevant to the greater awareness of spiritual understanding, which needs no classification or title.

In my post in your other threat, I was more curious as to why you choose to call yourself a Christian as opposed to going without a label, and not about the details of hell.

My apologies for any offence.


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Here we are, in these bodies, on this planet in an endless universe. This is not the extent of who we are... merely an extension of who we really are.

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: Amnesiac]
    #1506099 - 04/29/03 09:29 PM (21 years, 25 days ago)

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Invisiblebert
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: World Spirit]
    #1506126 - 04/29/03 09:39 PM (21 years, 25 days ago)

MarktheGnostic made a comment in the other thread that really struck me. He said he 'doesn't hang with atheists'. What about yourself? I have visited some Christian forums and it's not my imagination when I see a lot of anti-non-Christian sentiments there. I've talked with Christians in real life and had some literally walk away when I started asking questions about their faith. With the majority of Americans being Christian, this worries me.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1506136 - 04/29/03 09:43 PM (21 years, 25 days ago)

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Invisiblebert
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: World Spirit]
    #1506141 - 04/29/03 09:47 PM (21 years, 25 days ago)

I will definitely hang with a Christian as long as he respects me and doesn't try to convert me or turn me in to authorities because of drug use (bad experience). This is an open invite to Mark as well. We need to not let religion, or lack thereof, impede the progress of the acquisition of knowledge.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1506158 - 04/29/03 09:55 PM (21 years, 25 days ago)

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Edited by Enter (04/29/03 09:57 PM)

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Invisiblebert
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: World Spirit]
    #1506172 - 04/29/03 10:04 PM (21 years, 25 days ago)

I am a former Jew but turned away from organized religion several years ago.
In your post I think you mean ' doesn't have to result in bloody murder and name calling'. As social creatures we must understand our differences, but hopefully as enlightened (not neccessarily in a literal sense) beings we can learn to overcome them.


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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1506175 - 04/29/03 10:06 PM (21 years, 25 days ago)

Me? Oh nothing. I'm just moderating the forum.

Cheers,

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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1506181 - 04/29/03 10:09 PM (21 years, 25 days ago)

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Invisiblebert
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: World Spirit]
    #1506202 - 04/29/03 10:16 PM (21 years, 25 days ago)

I felt that it was coloring my view of reality in a way that was preventing me from seeking true knowledge. As far as faith goes, I have more faith in myself than in any amount of religious text, be it Jewish, Christian, Bhuddist, etc. etc. I look at them all as merely references. I look at them with skepticism just as I view scientific literature with skepticism. I have had what I thought were 'religious experiences' from various large does psychedelic experiences, and for several weeks I was firmly convinced there was a God. But after awhile, I made the decision to detach myself from that in order to view things as objectively as possible. My parents are extremely spiritual people, yet I love them just the same and do not look down at them in any way.


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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1506210 - 04/29/03 10:18 PM (21 years, 25 days ago)

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Offlinesocratesmind
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: World Spirit]
    #1506220 - 04/29/03 10:24 PM (21 years, 25 days ago)

a good book that had answers to reaffirm some of my religous standings and such were the book Ishmael. good read regardless. gives some nice twists on adam and eve, also cain and abel's stories.


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Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded.
- Abraham Lincoln: Speech in the Illinois House of Representatives, Dec 18, 1840.

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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: World Spirit]
    #1506225 - 04/29/03 10:26 PM (21 years, 25 days ago)

I think this Carlos Castenada book I'm reading is alot more spiritual than the bible. Probably more truthful as well...

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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: socratesmind]
    #1506229 - 04/29/03 10:27 PM (21 years, 25 days ago)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: Grav]
    #1506884 - 04/30/03 05:42 AM (21 years, 24 days ago)

Casteneda 's works are fictional. I've known this since November 1st, 1974 - exactly - when my former professor Dr. Bob Brier (often on TLC, making mummies - a renouned Egyptologist and co-publisher with JB Rhine, the parapsychologist) returned from Harry Houdini's grave on Halloween night. Casteneda was there, among other occult notables, and Bob told me personally that Don Juan Matus was fictional. Brier is a reputable scholar, whom I have been in recent communication with, and whose words I take as completely trustworthy.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1506909 - 04/30/03 06:01 AM (21 years, 24 days ago)

I have to work with atheistic adults, who fail to impart ANY spiritual knowledge to the adolescents who are in my charge as a clinical counselor. The teachers and administrators are likewise, people who seem to be more interested in whether they can buy a BMW or Mercedes on an educator's salary. Now this is merely a cross-section of working-class people in South Florida, so when I want to 'hang' with people socially; to have folks sit in my living room and talk, drink decent wine and listen to fine music, I want a foundation upon which to base our discussions.

Life is a trip. My home IS the setting, and I contribute to the mind-set. This is how I enjoy life (the trip), so even though the world is full of the crudely materialistic - whether from survival needs or from greed - I choose not to socialize with them. I have met extremely wealthy people in my age group, whose outer lives are filled with expensive toys and 'things' but whose inner lives are so impoverished that they literally have nothing to give of themselves. Neither will they turn to the inner. Wives collect diamonds, men collect sports cars, and they are divorcing and miserable. Most do not know what Joy is like, only fleeting amusement which quickly becomes old. They cannot see through the eyes of their children, who they groom to be as materialistic and empty as they are.

I have been 'friendly with,' that is, I have visited/been visited by/gone out with two professing, adult atheists over the past half dozen years. Waste of time. One flipped out after 3 years when my Lady asked him to share something of himself, and stormed out of our home. The other atheist - an intellectual - gave a dissertation on why not to say "God bless you" when he sneezes, and who had a serious woody for my Lady. Do I need any more of these beings in the sanctuary of my home? I think not.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (04/30/03 10:34 AM)

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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1507919 - 04/30/03 02:06 PM (21 years, 24 days ago)

You say you are a practicing clinical counselor yet you do not view all people with objectivity. This worries me a great deal. You have had some bad experiences with atheists, and based upon that you are judging all atheists as materialists? Absurd and shame on you. I and my friends are all atheists and we are some of the least materialist people you'll come across.
I've had plenty of bad experiences with Christians in the past but I try not to let that shade my experiences in the future. You seem to have a very stereotypical and bizarre view of people with no faith in God. There's more to life than just religion. There's more to Atheists than just Mercedes'. I'd like to think we can be friends on this forum, because, frankly I think that's an important function of this forum, to come to mutual understandings and expand out repetoir of knowledge and acceptance.



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OfflineAmnesiac
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1508523 - 04/30/03 04:58 PM (21 years, 24 days ago)

Some people affiliated to religion, and I say "some" tend to lump atheists into a category that includes inner-emptiness and materialism. Athiests are capable of wisdom, self-improvement, and even spiritual evolution, provided they are consciously or even subconsciously aware of the concept of a greater energy source. Something that's not hard for anyone to understand...

Even if an athiest can't imagine a higher state of consciousness and oneness with the universe, they still might actually be moving in a forward direction spiritually through their daily practices, thought processes and morals.

The way I see it is that a good, honest person who is kind and respectful to others and doesn't hurt anyone IS moving in a positive, growthful direction.

I personally am neither religious nor atheist.

Religious people often try to convince me that I am atheist, and atheists often try to convince me that I am religious. Ha!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1508621 - 04/30/03 05:35 PM (21 years, 24 days ago)

I do not need to, or try to be clinically 'objective' with my friends. Friendship is a special constellation of attachments, freely experienced (unanalyzed, uncensored) emotions, intersubjective 'closeness' and generally a very spontaneous mode of being-in-the-world, as Existentialists say. I select my friends on the basis of similar values, not on their looks, social standing, economic standing, profession, or for what they have or what they can do for me. Similar values mean, among other things, ethical concerns (I don't hang with robbers, theives, rapists, molesters, wife-beaters, addicts, and a lot of other unsavory people - although I've treated all of these types including later murderers).

Materialism is not only holding material things in the highest regard in one's hierarchy of values, it also reduces the [Arisotelian] Absolute Cause of existence (God) to one or more Efficient Causes. There is no Transcendental Reality that is acknowledged; no teleology or purposefulness to the manifest universe or the sentient beings within it - which transforms down to mean that life has no Ultimate Meaning.

This is close to the core of my identity - meaningfulness - Ultimate meaningfulness in the microcosm which is my life, and in the macrocosmic universe. This means that the atheist is motivated by purely secular and mundane thoughts and feelings, and is him/herself cut off from the loftiest, higher chakra states of affect and cognition; thus [s]he is content to live as the lower half of a 'centauric' being [to paraphrase Ken Wilber]. My psychospiritual passions for mysticism, alchemy, yoga, and religion, not to mention the central importance of my own faith will be completely unimportant, irrelevant and meaningless to the atheist. Insofar as my passions exemplify that which is closest to my heart - my heart is irrelevant to said atheist.

I can work with, or work on virtually everyone, but those whom I choose to love as friends - including my Lady who is my closest friend, must have the capacity to share some of my deepest love - each with their own capacity. It is difficult and frustrating when I do not share the values of people whom I still socialize with, and who care nothing for my values. We remain on the surface of things - literally, things, like hurricane shutters and where to buy jewelry for my Lady at the best price. I play with their little kids, but I don't want or have kids of my own because parenting is not my path or my interest. Yet to a couple of our friends, their children are THE main value in their existence. They are not atheists, but, 'I' buy them books with which to answer their childrens' spiritual questions. We like them, but [howsoever selfish this may seem] they cannot soar with us.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (04/30/03 07:41 PM)

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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1508738 - 04/30/03 06:23 PM (21 years, 24 days ago)

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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: World Spirit]
    #1508762 - 04/30/03 06:31 PM (21 years, 24 days ago)

For awhile my only friends were atheists - well, they were beyond pofessing atheists, they were militant atheists who were utterly repulsed when I became religious. They would preach against religion constantly; the first few times I debated with them but then I realized it was pretty pointless - an endless circle. However when they saw I wasn't biting back for debating they gave up and retorted to using anti-religious slurs and general belief-advertising.

The sad thing is, one of them is a leader, the other a follower. The follower, was going to become a Muslim at around the exact same time I was converting, we were both 17, and had just done a significant dose acid for the first time. I remember his first trip very well; he was totally unexeperienced with psychedelics but he took six hits anyway. I remember he ate it, started listening to his music, and then I went to work - arriving home a few hours later he was hunched against the back wall writing in his journal, crying. This didn't surprise me terribly much because he has a history of abnormal, eccentric, and down right dangerous behaviour; he even pulled a knife out on someone once, yelling "You think I'm afraid to stab you with this?" before cutting his own hand before him. After the trip he dropped out of school, quit smoking pot (which normally doesn't go hand-in-hand) and apologized to just about everyone he wronged. He told me he was going to become a Muslim as well.

To cut it short, he took acid like maybe two more times since that trip in very low doses, after a few months he began rejected religion; at first with some degree of respect, now he makes jokes about Arabs. He started to hang out alot with my other, atheist friend. The pot came back, so did the weird ass lifestyle he was addicted to. The last time I saw him he tried to strangle me and burned himself several times with a cigarette.

Atheists. I can't fuggin stand 'em.


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Edited by Zahid (04/30/03 06:36 PM)

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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: Zahid]
    #1508793 - 04/30/03 06:41 PM (21 years, 24 days ago)

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Invisiblebert
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1508830 - 04/30/03 06:58 PM (21 years, 24 days ago)

I'll tell you now, Mark, that my thoughts are far from mundane. Also, your assumption that acknowledgement of a transcendental reality is required for a meaningful life is just plain wrong. It is possible to seek truth and knowledge and happiness without God. Don't assume that your personal passions are of no interest to an Atheist simply because he doesn't believe in them. I have an interest in Transcendental Meditation and Bhuddism, however I don't neccessarily believe in such things as of yet. I maintain that you're limiting yourself by cutting off Atheists or Agnostics who are righteous, inquisitive, entertaining, thoughtful, intelligent, etc. etc.

Zahid: Your comments are both hurtful and sickening to me. I hope you find peace.


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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1508868 - 04/30/03 07:12 PM (21 years, 24 days ago)

Mark, that my thoughts are far from mundane. Also, your assumption that acknowledgement of a transcendental reality is required for a meaningful life is just plain wrong.

I think what Markos is trying to say, life with God cannot be compared with any other kind of happiness. It's hard to explain, but even a crack rush does not come close to the remembrance of God - regardless what you believe in, or how good you feel about everything in your life, none of that can compare to eternal love - that's transcendental reality for you.

Zahid: Your comments are both hurtful and sickening to me. I hope you find peace.

I'm sorry, and thank you for being concerned.


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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: World Spirit]
    #1509159 - 04/30/03 08:58 PM (21 years, 24 days ago)

"Hell" and the "Lake of Fire" were created by the church to establish fear in the followers, so they could ascertain control There is of course, the astral plane, and if you so choose to live in fear in that realm and allow fear based beings to feed off of you, then that's your perogitave, however..it is certainly not eternal. The only thing eternal is the soul, and evolution, and creation.


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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: Zahid]
    #1509164 - 04/30/03 08:59 PM (21 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Atheists. I can't fuggin stand 'em.




Good to know you've judged me without knowing me at all.  :grin:

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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1509202 - 04/30/03 09:08 PM (21 years, 24 days ago)

I'm sort of astounded by your sense of assencion and transcendence, but I can't help but wonder how harmonized it is with your sense of descension and immanence. A pagan plummets far -deeper- than an atheist, ya know. Oh well, me thinks I could only express myself fully in person.
Peace & Hugs, CJ


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: Shroomism]
    #1509298 - 04/30/03 09:32 PM (21 years, 24 days ago)

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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: World Spirit]
    #1509324 - 04/30/03 09:37 PM (21 years, 24 days ago)

The 3rd dimension which we exist in is the lowest level human consciousness can appear. Hell is on Earth, but only if you create it for yourself, by living centered in FEAR as opposed to LOVE.


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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: Shroomism]
    #1509370 - 04/30/03 09:46 PM (21 years, 24 days ago)

when it comes down to it.. athiests won't kill in the name of god. athiests may burn in hell forever, but as long as there are christians, muslims, etc... then wars will be fought and death will occur.

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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: Shroomism]
    #1509443 - 04/30/03 09:59 PM (21 years, 24 days ago)

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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: World Spirit]
    #1509457 - 04/30/03 10:02 PM (21 years, 24 days ago)

Simply put, Love is heaven, Fear is hell.

When I speak of fear, I don't mean fear of being attacked by bears, I mean living centered in constant fear, that it controls you. That is hell.


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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: Shroomism]
    #1509497 - 04/30/03 10:13 PM (21 years, 24 days ago)

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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: Shroomism]
    #1509508 - 04/30/03 10:16 PM (21 years, 24 days ago)

if you dissociate from your ego, you cannot feel love or fear. this is where i am in life.

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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: Thor]
    #1509544 - 04/30/03 10:26 PM (21 years, 24 days ago)

I'm not juding you, I am saying that I do not like to have atheists as close personal friends.

Judging by your signature, I would not want to be your friend.


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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: ]
    #1509552 - 04/30/03 10:28 PM (21 years, 24 days ago)

sounds like heroin addiction to me




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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: Zahid]
    #1509556 - 04/30/03 10:28 PM (21 years, 24 days ago)

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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: World Spirit]
    #1509861 - 05/01/03 12:11 AM (21 years, 24 days ago)

Would you be irritated if I asked what purpose it would serve to have your soul go to some "place" for 1,000 years because you have been bad?

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InvisibleThorA
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: Zahid]
    #1509873 - 05/01/03 12:16 AM (21 years, 24 days ago)

My signature? Care to share what is wrong with it?

You did say:
Quote:

Atheists. I can't fuggin stand 'em.


Its pretty clear you meant in a general sense.

What if I said "Muslims, I can't fuggin stand 'em."  :smirk:

Edited by Thor (05/01/03 12:23 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: Thor]
    #1510014 - 05/01/03 12:50 AM (21 years, 24 days ago)

Yeah, or what if you called 'em a "towel head"?

:grin:

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OfflineZahid
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: Thor]
    #1510107 - 05/01/03 01:11 AM (21 years, 24 days ago)

My signature? Care to share what is wrong with it?

The sexual content. It's not my cup of tea to hang out with someone with that kind of taste in humor.

Its pretty clear you meant in a general sense.

What if I said "Muslims, I can't fuggin stand 'em."


I should have added "as friends" to that statement, which is the proper context - but it would have made it less simple and catchy. I don't have any problems with atheists. However, I do not relate to them, I have nothing in common with them (as my lifestyle is God-oriented), and frankly I cannot stand them in a friendship sense.

Btw, who here gave me a 1 shroom rating. I'm willing to exchange a 5 for 5. :-)


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Edited by Zahid (05/01/03 01:15 AM)

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Invisiblebert
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: Zahid]
    #1510178 - 05/01/03 01:25 AM (21 years, 24 days ago)

LOL, and judging by your sig I'd say you were a terrorist... :wink:
You need to take a chill pill, Zahid.  Or some shrooms or something.




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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1510214 - 05/01/03 01:38 AM (21 years, 24 days ago)

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Invisiblebert
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: World Spirit]
    #1510231 - 05/01/03 01:46 AM (21 years, 24 days ago)

If going toward God means frustration with human relation, then in my opinion it isn't worth going toward God. It's easy to forget that we live in a real, physical, tangible world with other people who have different views. Allies and enemies, eh? So the true intent finally shines through. Well, so much for Islam: Religion of Peace. But, as long as he doesn't bomb my apartment, he can think and do whatever he wants.


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Edited by bert (05/01/03 01:47 AM)

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1510255 - 05/01/03 01:55 AM (21 years, 23 days ago)

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Invisiblebert
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: World Spirit]
    #1510281 - 05/01/03 02:05 AM (21 years, 23 days ago)

Alright, that is more than acceptable for me. But when you start tossing words like enemy and ally around, it tends to make people a little intense (for future reference).


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1510285 - 05/01/03 02:07 AM (21 years, 23 days ago)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1510528 - 05/01/03 05:45 AM (21 years, 23 days ago)

Righteous atheists? I don't think so. But your notion of "cutting oneself off" from the 'Philistines' of the world IS quite correct. In the marketplace, I have no choice, but in the sanctuary [literally] of my home, I do have a choice. Growth in Holiness IS a matter of separating from the worldly. The New Testament suggested shaking off the dust from your feet, of the town where one was not accepted because of one's love for Truth. Truth is synonymous with Ultimate Reality - That which is Ultimately Real. Meaning and purpose for me do not derive from biological or social processes, but ONLY from GOD. Anything other is mundane, pedestrian, insignificant. And this lecture from someone with a patently offensive signature such as the one YOU have?! Totally disgusted my Lady when she saw it, as it would offend any lady. Tell me some more about righteousness.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Anonymous

Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1510850 - 05/01/03 09:26 AM (21 years, 23 days ago)

Careful brother.

This is a reason I cannot see sig lines or avatars. I find they don't really add much to my mycology.

Cheers,

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Invisiblebert
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1511290 - 05/01/03 12:07 PM (21 years, 23 days ago)

LMAO!  My signature comes from the movie Magnolia directed by Paul Thomas Anderson(one of my favorite directors), which if you had seen, you would think totally different of my signature.  It's a movie about life, love, and death.  My quote comes from Tom Cruise, who blatantly disrespects women because of his lack of relationship with his father and subsequent insecurity with himself.  I'd think someone as intelligent as yourself could pick up on irony or humor?  I liked the movie and suggest you rent it, it even has biblical references. :wink:  I am a moral person, whether you believe it or not is up to you.
Anyways, Enter and I have already come to terms.  You should join us, Mark. 
No man is an island.


P.S.  Mark's Lady, I'm sorry if you found my signature offensive but I'm not changing it because it is not representative of my own moral code.  I do however find it entertaining and it does have some shock value afterall...


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: Zahid]
    #1511514 - 05/01/03 01:44 PM (21 years, 23 days ago)

Fair enough, I've read enough of your posts to see that you are at least well read in your beliefs and I can respect that.

Just please don't assume anything about athiests cause they are quite diverse in their beliefs. I'm fascinated by all religions and even though I don't believe in any forms of 'gods', doesn't mean I still don't find it all very interesting.

I'm actually reading a few books from Bernard Lewis: What went wrong? The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East ... and .... The Crisis of Islam - Holy War and Unholy Terror.

BTW, what does your signature say and what do you want to represent by it? Cause it certainly gives off an impression that might insult many more people than my 'sexual' icons which I put there for humour :wink: 

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: World Spirit]
    #1511663 - 05/01/03 02:35 PM (21 years, 23 days ago)

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1512255 - 05/01/03 05:57 PM (21 years, 23 days ago)

I guess I don't know about monotheism and Gnostics. Not to deny the importance of ascemdomg to the One, but to the extent that it denies the Many, denies Gaia, the body, the senses, and sexuality, I see imbalance. The Great Mother, the world of form, polytheism, magick, ritual, all manifest from Spirit. One & Many are not two, they're non-dual, and if you cut off any of this world from your Hridayam....

i mean, i think there are some people here who as conscious as dog shit, it doesn't matter what they call themselves, they're little more than matter. they're the fundamentalists.... call them christian, atheist, whatever....

i think there are others who will remain atheists, but w/ drugs like LSD will enjoy more sensitivity, passion, engaging lives w/ greater senses of compassion. they will have things to offer you, things to turn you on to. many pagans are just the same... they are children of Spirit, for god's sake! it's foolish to shelter yourself from their love.

Let's say, sitting at a bus stop or waiting in line at the market, I can pretty much find a way to relate to anyone, everyday people folk.
I could go to the bar, read a poem, dance, play a tune on my mandolin... and love the people... talk to the people... embrace the people...
Do you think that pagans at a celebration of myths, Gods, seasons, w/ ritual and dance and music have no drive for Wisdom - don't sumbit to the will of Jaw?

If it wasn't my love for all the forms of this life, I'd have no reason to separate and transcend.... and not the other way around.

Blessings, CJ.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Anonymous

Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1513428 - 05/01/03 11:07 PM (21 years, 23 days ago)

Yeah, well I keep reading and thinking how wonderful you all are. I particularly enjoy the non-flaming.

Not much time for comments other than that.

Cheers,

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Offlinequemo
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: ]
    #1514146 - 05/02/03 07:01 AM (21 years, 22 days ago)

enter, you truly are a credit to your religion. I've stumbled across too many christians who read the bible as a 10-steps-to-heaven-plan and judge everyone who do not. You create a breakingpoint in my, i must admit, stubborn rejecting view on christianity that has formed over the years because of all the negative experience i have had with its followers.....

KEEP POSTING, i mean that :cool:

Edited by quemo (05/02/03 09:17 AM)

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: quemo]
    #1514901 - 05/02/03 01:12 PM (21 years, 22 days ago)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1517734 - 05/03/03 02:33 PM (21 years, 21 days ago)

The saying goes: 'There are no atheists in fox holes.' When people really come under fire, when fear for one's mortal life is seriously threatened, there is hardly a human BEING who won't verbally or mentally utter a beseaching "Please" into the aether. Some people won't admit it, but they'll do it. Not to do so indicates such isolation from the WAY (the Tao, the I AM, the Logos, Ultimate Reality), that they are suffering from 'Pneumapathology' (Hey, I just made that up! I claim copyright on this one!) As opposed to calling an atheist psychopathological, or sick-minded, it occurs to me that this is a radical affliction of the spirit, not the mind. To deny one of the three basic components of human existence, not to mention the very 'root' that joins us to BEING Itself, is a major deficiency of awareness.

It may be a matter of no internal communication between one's spirit-mind-body, because an atheist is human and HAS a spiritual component or else [s]he wouldn't BE - wouldn't exist. Being means existing, and means specific, individual beinghood which is a function, or a derivative of Existence Itself - from the Ground of Being - which people like to call GOD (it's a lot simpler isn't it?)

I am not including Pagans under atheism. In fact, I just ordered a set of male-female candlesticks for the altar of a Pagan, Neo-Wiccan friend of ours. I respect her way of worship - I used to practice ceremonial magick myself, and the Supernal Father and Supernal Mother - Wisdom and Understanding - are the first two Sephiroth of duality that derive from the ONE. If her morality is in place, and is simply: 'An Harm Ye None," I respect that as well.

My point is: I may believe in many faiths, giving priority enough to my own to be able to identify myself as one, and not as another faith, but I don't believe in atheism. I don't mean that I don't understand a non-theistic faith like Theravadin Buddhism. They acknowledge Ultimate Reality in their own way. Atheism posits that there is no 'Transcendenz,' no Ultimate Reality, and reality retains only its physical properties, with the exception of mental phenomena that derives (materially) from neurocellular matter. There is no Universal Principle, no Intelligent Design or Designer. The complexity of the natural world is held to be the result of 'Chance' occurances, so that a comprehensible principle like mathematical probability, extended over aeons of time, becomes a substitute idea for the Creator of the Universe. Pushed far enough, an atheist therefore does, in a sense, have a god, but it is a comprehensible idea because nothing could possibly Transcend the ability to comprehend human mentality - even if the atheist himself can't understand something personally - someone can!

So, drugs that expand the horizon of awareness - which IS transcendence over lower, less inclusive states of awareness, are soley a product of the human neuroanatomy, the design of which is happenstance. For me, at this point of my life, denying that our being is derivative of BEING is analogous to denying that our bodies are like 85% water. It is equally absurd not to be awed by the realization that all form - all design - derive from an Ultimate Design (Transpersonally taken), or a Designer (Personally taken), both of which are true. The denial of either or both formulations is not only absurd, it is untrue, it is a lie. It is a very big lie, and I will simply not have any truck with a big liar if I have any choice.

So, I'm not condemning atheists, but they don't particularly interest me as potential friends. We have a 'low ceiling' on our relationship, because I realize that there is an Infinity and Eternity beyond that artifical, atheist-imposed ceiling, and as a consequence, the depth of our relationship is necessarily limited and therefore dissapointing. I hope this clarifies my opinion on atheism.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Invisiblebert
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1517794 - 05/03/03 03:04 PM (21 years, 21 days ago)

Perhaps I'm not an atheist then. I allow for the possibility of a Transcendental Reality, but definitely not an 'intelligent designer'. I also think that if there is such an ultimate state of being that it is tied to this reality through means that we don't understand yet, but that can in the future be revealed through science. So, I sort of have spirituality, but I arrive at it in a very roundabout fashion that doesn't involve worship or a church or ritual or anything like that. Rather, I think of this Transcendental Reality as either a product of our own mind or a function of the physical universe. Note, this in no way, shape, or form detracts from the 'beauty, righteousness, love', etc. etc. of 'god'/transcendental reality. All my beliefs I came to on my own accord and were formed before studying any religion at all.
My next question would be: 'Can you have spirituality without Faith'? That would be my version of spirituality if there were any at all.


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Anonymous

Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1517832 - 05/03/03 03:32 PM (21 years, 21 days ago)

if one can get passed the ego and faith, the feeling of awe at the universe and everything composed of it, then what is there? evolution can explain everything that is contained within us, our desires, our fears, our bodies...exactly. the same forces which drive the animals to survive. at the center of this is the ego...selfishness, greed, and want to survive....the feeling that "i am so special, i MUST live forever"...there is no denying something created the universe, but were we meant to be ? or just a mathematical probability that was bound to happen....BEAUTIFUL yes!!......but could you embrace god knowing this was your only chance at life, or is that to depressing for your ego's?.....i see more beauty in one life...one MEANINGFUL life than existence in infinity, but then again i don't let my ego speak for me most of the time.

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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: ]
    #1521350 - 05/05/03 07:29 AM (21 years, 19 days ago)

and now for a word on atheists from one of our unitarian friends :wink:
www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7756/atheism.html


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1522501 - 05/05/03 04:45 PM (21 years, 19 days ago)

First thing is first, Transcendental Reality is not a product of the physical universe, nor is it a product of the mind. Secondly, the mind is not a part of the physical universe, in other words, what a scientist can observe. For example, as a scientist you can monitor the effects of MDMA on the seratonin levels of the brain. A possible outcome could indicate that prolonged use of MDMA correlates with lower seratonin levels, and taken further you could monitor the user's behaviors and possibly find a correlation between low seratonin levels and behaviors characteristic of clinical depression. The mind itself, our interior landscape, however, only has an exterior physical correlate which we call the brain. Scientific studies will never reveal the subjective nature of a human's MDMA high - the subjective experience of the mind will only be hinted at through introspection, communication, and interpretation. You can look at the brain, but you must talk to a mind, and that requires not just observation but interpretation. BEWARNED! Do not reduce the significance of consciousness and values and meanings and morals to a mere epiphenomenon, a ghost within the shell of a brain! It is up to you to let your mind discover itself through itself and find a way to integrate it with your anylitical, scientific capabilities.
A better understanding of your own ego and its unconscious repressions and regressions seem quite necessary before you make any conclusions on Transcendental Raelity.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Invisiblebert
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1522523 - 05/05/03 04:53 PM (21 years, 19 days ago)

Well, I think the mind has to exist in the physical universe because the brain exists in the physical unvierse. And you can't have a mind without a brain. Just because something is subjective, doesn't neccessarily mean it is outside the realm of the known universe. You don't know whether in the future we'll be able to tap directly into subjective experiences, thus objectifying them by allowing others to experience it or view it. We are already making headway into neurobiology, for instance they already have a system set up where you can directly control the mouse on your computer screen solely by thought. If thought were entirely subjective, it wouldn't relate to a common physical phenomenon. Take that same system in 1000 years, and perhaps you can have your thought projected as a virtual experience that others can participate it.


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InvisibleSmack31
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1522579 - 05/05/03 05:11 PM (21 years, 19 days ago)

>'Can you have spirituality without Faith'? That would be my version of spirituality if there were any at all.

Spirituality is something that just flows with you...
If you've tapped it, just enjoy the experience.
If you stay true to yourself, the rest will come to you.

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1522600 - 05/05/03 05:21 PM (21 years, 19 days ago)

i think the Spirit is doing just fine - it's just astonishing that no matter how intensely one loses oneself within the Spirit... like on an acid trip out in the woods, for example, it's as if though the ego has already apprehended its coming and committed itself in advance to imposing some crappy physical interpretation over the pure radiance as soon as it can fight its way back into existance. you know the hippy drop-out phenomenon is the ego's response to a transcendental experience, placing the blame on culture and regressing back towards nature as the source of the experience insteading of transcending the culture into the Spirit.



--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: I want you guys to understand Christian Judgment [Re: bert]
    #1523328 - 05/05/03 09:33 PM (21 years, 19 days ago)

You keep speaking of the exterior, man - so what if the nazis have the neurobiology? What about the -consciousness- that uses it? The technology may better support global consciousness, but it doesn't guaruntee an individual's willingness to use it to expand awareness. Your idea is that since the technology is global, therefore the consciousness that uses it is global. Your hypothesis merely indicates another exterial social change in communication at best.
The "technology" to transcend is already here, and technique towards expanded awareness is more easily accessable than ever, yet is still acheived by very few.
Hmmmmmmmm.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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