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Offlinefivepointer
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Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1701785 - 07/10/03 06:16 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I reviewed some of John Spong's writings. He is a manifest heretic who denies every core doctrine of the faith. Some heresies are subtle, his are just off the wall.


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: Christianity [Re: fivepointer]
    #1701873 - 07/10/03 08:31 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Fivepointer I have a question for you.

Have you ever done mushrooms ?

I bet you haven?t.

I find it very strange that a bible quoter will hang around in a forum like the shroomery with so many "heretics"

Unless your intension is to cast out "Satan" from this forum.


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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 3 months, 18 days
Re: Christianity [Re: LOBO]
    #1702665 - 07/10/03 03:12 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

the question of "who is the heretic" has shaped christianity from its beginnings as a messianic offshoot of pharasiac & essenic & zealot movmements within judaism (not the mention the not-so subtle disagreements between saul/paul's evangelizing to the "god-fearing" gentiles (who were non-jews who accepted the concept of monotheism as presented in synagogues (between 5 and 10 % of people living in the roman empire of that time may have been jewish !)  but who had not yet committed to briss and kashrut (circumcision & dietary laws) required for full admission into a jewish congregation/community...
(these were paul's targets, heh...) VS the jewish messianic christian community that struggled and perhaps flourished (& being led by "james the just, brother of jesus...)
until the great diaspora & destruction of the temple (& the last stand at the masada fortress by a zealot/essene remnant...) & the scattering of the pharisees, sadducees, zealots, (the essenes were alread holed up at qumran) and the folk of the new covenant (most of whom fled the city before the romans burned it to the ground in like 67 c.e. (= a.d. hehheh...), & the family and followers of their annointed one, the crucified carpenter rabbi, their massiach (messiah = annointed = christ), yeshai, yashua, jesus of nazareth ("nazorim" means "the pure ones")...
and then gnostics & other movements, the establishment of trinitarinism as a basic tenet of christian orthodoxy (= "right-thinking"!) & "canonical" scriptures being selected around the time of constantine's rule in the east, the the churchwide councils at nicea, and the adoption of creedal statements of faith (apostles, nicean, athanasian) (& non-canonical scriptures being destroyed (or hidden, as in nag hammadi & qumran (well, qumran may have been destroyed as a potential messianic potential hotbed by the forces of the empire when judaism was no loger well-tolerated by rome (even afer the 67-71 struggles, there was another jewish uprising in like 130-ish) damascus, alexandria, & other places...
and the change from being targets of (roman empire) state-sponsored persecution to becoming not only "the" state religion (under constantine) to becoming mandatory for everybody except the jews (& persecuting the jews, off and on, for the next 1750 years :frown: )...
and the elimination of old & established pagan religions, as well as other "mystery-cult" religions (e.g. attis, mithras, the kore/persephone grain/death/rebirth/psychedelic cult at eleusis, manes, apollonius, even old simon magus, heh...) and other more regional volk religions, like the nordic wotan/odin clut, and the celts, and the druids, and the women's ancient earth-mother/goddess  cults going back to the time of the earliest migrations of homonids out of mother africa, tens and hundreds of thousands of years ago :smile: ...
and like markos said, ~hiya MtG :wink: ~ --->the great schism between the orthodox (greek) catholics and the western (roman) catholics over the nature of the origin of the third person of the triune god, "ol' spooky" ooops... j/k ... i mean the holy spirit (auf deutsch,  das (?) heilige gheist) and then the encounter with islam & the several crusades... and the discovery of the new world (& it's inhabitants, "los indios" (which could be read as "the children of god") and all the wonderful and horrible things that happened when the peoples of europe "discovered" the land and peoples of the americas (or, "turtle island" )...
and serious problems in western europe --- movements to put common language ("vernacular") copies of the christian scriptures into the hands of literate laity, the flourishing of many secret lodges & esoteric brotherhoods & mystical cabals, the re-introdution (after  a thousand years of suppression by churchg authorities) of greek and roman "classical" authors into european philosphical thought & the first sparkings of humanism....
and growing criticism from members of the clergy & universities (jan hus, meister eckhart, martin luther, calvin, zwingli... which eventual exploded into the "protestant" reformation (& the roman-cahtolic counterreformation) and the missionary movement(s) which took the christian gospel to the ends of the earth...
and the many variations of christianity that have come out of the americas (especially the united states, but carribean & brazilian too :wink: ...)
and here we are today...
biblical scholarship (the search for the "historical jesus"), growing acceptance of science (some version of darwin for speciation/evolution, accepting the physicists' universe age of 10s of billions years, the geologists' fossil record for earth's age as billions of years (& old sol, too), & man as resident for 10s to 100s of thousnd years, & hominds around for a few million (kiss cousin chimps goodbye ummmm 3-5 m.y.a. ???), comparative mytholgy, growing interfaith dialog, more awareness of the jewishness of jesus...
~
not every person who is "christian" is "fundamentalist"...
~
and not everyone who is christian holds that it must be "literally & historically true" that jesus was the unique incarnation of the universal god out of a virgin jewess by the holy spirit, dying as atonement for humanity's sins, bodily returned from a criminal's death by crucifixion to comfort (& confront...) his followers & ascend to sit on a throne with his father...
but then again, some do...
and some say the words and try to grok their meaning...
and some say the words and don't bother trying to figure it out...
and some don't say the words (in the "creed") at all
and some have extra texts to study (catechisms, concordats, synodical statements, whatever)...
and some have extra "interpretations" or "scriptures" (swedenborg's stuff, mary baker eddy, joseph smith...
and some have no formal views (quakers) or mystical mix (unity)  or open theology (unitarian/universalist) or practicing gnostic churches, essenic groups, (markos told me about a buddhist christian/essenic/manichean/magdalenian group :wink: ...)
~
sitting here with mark twain, i shoot this your way... the development of christianity as a religion is reminiscent of the development of twain's _the adventures of hucklebery finn_ as a novel
(---hehheh --- interesting character & p.o.v., strong tale-telling, profound moral question posed and addressed, mold-shattering to pre-existing forms, & potential greatness, but spoiled by unsatisfactory resolution...
j/k...
~
~
oh, and books/authors...
gosh, we've done this before, haven't we?
ummmm,
well...
hugh schonfield"s _the passover plot_ (& the jesus party & those incredible christians, & several more, all well-written, informative, enaging, and quite, ummm... plausible...
morton hunt's _jesus the magician_ puts jesus in the class of mediterranean wonderworkers such as simon magus, & apollonius, etc...)
sprong's books on how to read the scriptures, & elaine pagels' books on gnosticism & early christinaity, are well worth the read...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
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Re: Christianity [Re: gnrm23]
    #1702838 - 07/10/03 03:50 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

WOW! Love ya gnrm23!


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Registered: 12/10/99
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Re: Christianity [Re: fivepointer]
    #1702950 - 07/10/03 04:27 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

And you m'lad, are still attempting to maintain the magical thinking of childhood which is a stage of human development in each individual, and which characterized even adult psychology in a much earlier age. You refuse to open your own eyes to the world, have absolutely no idea about what Reverend Spong is about since you only read about him from - maybe even from a completely biased position - and therefore you will continue to attempt to think in an archaic mindset. One cannot in all truth, think like an ancient Hebrew in the 21st century. You do not have any real idea how a pre-scientific, pre-Copernian, illiterate 1st century Judean would have thought. You know too much more.

I believe in God. I have practiced the Presence of God for decades. I have witnessed very specific petitionary prayer answered with Exactly the complex request. I experience synchronistic phenomenon all the time. I listen to my dreams. I pray in Jesus' Name, by the power of the Holy Spirit to the One True God. And if the crucified body of an obscure 1st century man, who the Romans recorded as "a certain Chrestus" [chrestus=kind], was thrown into a common grave, to be devoured by wild dogs like the other tens of thousands of crucified people - my faith is no less strong. I do not need the PR writngs of the Gospel authors, with blatently contradictory items, written decades after Jesus was executed. It was not 3 days between Friday evening and Sunday; who was at the big old fancy tomb? Depends on the account. Did Judas Iscariot [the Sicarri were Jewish assasins, which is probably where this character came from] hang himself, or did he fall and have his guts spill out of him? Well, which was it? Both?

Eye-witness, historical accounts? No. If you need material, historical, really-happened-on-a-Sunday-morning event...then YOU are a spiritual materialist. YOU are the heretic which places a resusitated corpus in an idolatrous position. Jesus' Ascension - later a separate cosmic event from resurrection - the physical body of Jesus prepared for takeoff...to where? A 1st century cosmology that put the Earth at the center of the universe, with the Light of Heaven shining through holes in the dome of the sky, above which sat God in a throne? A 3-tiered universe with Hell
somewhere in the bowels of the Earth - borrowed from Hellenistic mythology - from Hades is what YOU are going to believe in? Try to think for yourself. Try to understand and distill out the meaning in the Biblical language, so that you truly enter the Body of Christ - the Mystical Body of Christ - the Mystery of Eternal Life. WAKE UP man! You're reading midrash. You're reading mythos. It's still truth.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineFunguy
Homo SapiensEntheogenous
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Registered: 01/07/03
Posts: 2,415
Loc: Muffy
Last seen: 8 months, 12 hours
Re: Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1702993 - 07/10/03 04:42 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Hi, I'm still studying for my big post. But has anyone heard about the alien theory of the Bible? Like the Nephilim in Genesis, the Pillar of Smoke and Fire, the fiery chariot that took Elijah into Heaven, the vision of Ezekiel. There are other things too.


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OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1703035 - 07/10/03 04:51 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Amen to that.


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: Christianity [Re: fivepointer]
    #1703338 - 07/10/03 06:25 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
I reviewed some of John Spong's writings. He is a manifest heretic who denies every core doctrine of the faith. Some heresies are subtle, his are just off the wall.




Myself I have adapted to many of Rev. Spong's beliefs and I am not even Christian - but Muslim.

Personally, I do not believe there is such thing as heresy. To me it is lingo from the Middle ages, a term that is thrown around that only divides Christianity as opposed to uniting it.

It is the same within my religion, when radical Sunnis will call Shi'ites kaffir, or vise versa. It's insanity, I tell you; but what's beautiful about it is that God loves us all. To Him, it's just His children not getting along.



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Registered: 12/10/99
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Re: Christianity [Re: Funguy]
    #1706002 - 07/11/03 03:16 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

'Chariots of the Gods' stuff. May as well be 'Star Gate' (the movie - [Egyptian-looking aliens]). Materialistic, rationalistic explanations for Transcendental Reality conveyed by the mythic-archetypal psyches of humans. The Transcendental language of the ancients was mythological, or mytho-poetic. Later, it became philosophical (particularly the Indian and Greek mentalities, and the Greeks may well have been influenced by the Hindus and Buddhists. The Cadeusus of Hermes-Mercury is a model of the Chakras of India, for example. The Greeks used the psychedelic ergot-based Kykeon, the Hindus used the [probably] mushroomic Soma even earlier, for examples). Inner visionary states and mystical states have always informed humans of Transcendental Realms. God is of an Infinite Order of magnitude, so that both Greek myth and Hebrew Scriptures say that to behold Deity in 'undisguised' or 'Universal' form, is to die.

The 3 Books of Enoch, found in the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha (see James H. Charlesworth's 'The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha', Vol. 1) speak about the Nephilim as Watchers, or Fallen Angels who lust after human women, teach them the arts of enchantment (magick, cosmetics), and teach metallurgy for making weapons to men. The theophany of Elijah is a Vision behind the 'Merkaba' [ba=soul, ka=spiritual double in ancient Egyptian belief] or 'throne mysticism' of the Kabbalah [again, ka and ba]. A careful analysis of the features of OT theophanies (like the Ophanim, or eye-covered 'wheel-within-wheel'), yields profound symbols and concepts, such as omnipresence in this instance. I believe these theophanies are profound Visions ("Mysterium Tremendum et Fascinans" - Tremendous and Fascinating Mystery) projected outwardly from the psyche onto space-time. It is important to note, that amidst all the evidence discovered from ancient Egypt, there is none which speaks of Hebrew slaves. This used to disturb me greatly (I know Bob Brier of TLC, mummy-making fame - a well-known Egyptologist) because it renders the entire Exodus of the Hebrews, plagues called up by Moses, as non-historical. That would include pillars of smoke and fire, parting of the Red Sea, and all those Cecil B. DeMille images that the masses have long imagined to have been physical, historical events. The pilgrimage or journey from spiritual bondage to freedom, is THE universal spiritual story, how ever and by whomever it is written or told.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinenubious
1up on the rest

Registered: 10/20/02
Posts: 534
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 2 months, 9 days
Re: Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1708010 - 07/12/03 08:44 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

"It is not your place to call me or anyone a heretic"

It is the Christian's duty to defend the faith and reprove false doctrine. Doctrine does not cause salvation. Salvation is conditioned soley on Christ's work alone on the cross for His elect people. Correct doctrine is a result of regeneration and is evidence of salvation. Those who resist and twist true doctrine show themselves to be reprobates.

It would be unloving not to correct a person who proclaims false doctrine.





I think Mark put it best, and we're going to have to run with that, because I sure as Jesus don't have the words to describe how blissfully mislead to come across...


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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