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Invisibletomatoes
you say tomatoe

Registered: 06/13/03
Posts: 180
Loc: and i say . . .
Re: Christianity [Re: Digs]
    #1699159 - 07/09/03 11:15 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Digs said:  Just made me think that even the most distorted religions have some truth, kind of a good feeling :smile:




shared thought/feeling  :smile:

gomorrah

just a song of gomorrah
wonder what they did there
musta been a bad thing
to get shot down for

wonder how they blew it up
or if they burned it down
get out get out mister lot
don?t chew look around

don?t chew look around no . . .
don?t look after you
it?s not your business how its done
your lucky to get through

who gave you your orders
someone from the sky
i heard a voice inside my head
in the desert wind so dry

i heard a voice tellin? me to flee
the very same voice i always believe
said a lot trouble?s comin
but it don?t have to come to you

i?m tellin you so that you can tell
the rest what you?ve been through

you?re a good, upstanding man
a credit to the flock
if you don?t face straight ahead
you know, you could not take the shock

blew the city off the map
there?s nothing there but fire
wife of lot got turned to salt
cause she looked behind her . . .


Garcia/Hunter



 


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OfflineFunguy
Homo SapiensEntheogenous
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Registered: 01/07/03
Posts: 2,415
Loc: Muffy
Last seen: 6 months, 6 days
Re: Christianity [Re: fivepointer]
    #1699223 - 07/09/03 12:03 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Jesus died for His elect people, and them only. They were given to Him by the Father from before the foundation of the world. As a result of this, in time they are convicted by the Spirit of their sinnership, of His righteousness, and the mysteries of the gospel are made known to them.
They are not saved because they have faith, they have faith because they are saved. They obey because He works in them to do His will. Conversion is a supernatural event, not a mere decision.






Jesus was meant to die for anybody that will accept him. He knew that he was going to die, the one for the many. Contrary to popular belief, God does not send people to Hell. We have a choice to accept or reject Christ. I am not here to force my beliefs on anybody, but those who want to hear (or read), listen to what I am saying. Many terrible things have been done in the name of "Christianity," such as witch hunts, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, etc. Even today, many so called "Christians" are not Christians. It is estimated that 80% of the Church is unsaved. To me, that is terrible, what kind of example are we setting for those who watch our every move? That is why Christians are seen as a bunch of hypocrites. Look at the people in the Bible, they constantly made mistakes. David committed adultery, and murder, but he was truly repentant and God forgave him. Saul murdered Christians with a gusto, but through the power of God he became a Christian himself. Don't let the actions of a few cloud your heart. You have to have faith to be saved, the faith that Christ did die for you, and rose again. Please ponder what I am saying...


--------------------

OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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Invisiblechunder
marker

Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 966
Loc: The City
Re: Christianity [Re: Funguy]
    #1699298 - 07/09/03 12:38 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"More people die from the hands of religious people than drunk drivers..."

Which is a reiteration of my stance that RELIGIONS aren't distored, people's perception of them is. Each holy text can be interpretted and practiced in an infinite number of ways. If you choose to percieve your religion as a reason to cultivate hate or prejudice, then that is your distorted perception. There is always another end to the spectrum, which we can freely choose to accept as our own paradigm.

fivepointer, listen to Markos. Look deeper. Peace and good luck.


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OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 14 days, 18 minutes
Re: Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1699431 - 07/09/03 01:41 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

It is not your place to call me or anyone a heretic




Excuse me for butting in here, but please don't argue about "heresy". It's such a silly concept. Remember what Jesus once said:

Quote:

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy
shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy
Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.




And as far as I know, that's the only hard rule that Jesus presented, ever.


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OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 14 days, 18 minutes
Re: Christianity [Re: Funguy]
    #1699448 - 07/09/03 01:47 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

It is estimated that 80% of the Church is unsaved.




How many percent do you think are unsaved among the people who believe that Krishna is God and human at the same time?


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OfflineNoviseer
Percussion isFree
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 3,994
Last seen: 7 years, 6 days
Re: Christianity [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1699502 - 07/09/03 02:06 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I wrote this to my fundamentalist christian friend over AIM when I was extremely baked. We always debate but we're friends and manage to get along despite opposite belief systems.

Conservative Fundamentalist Christians currently in power. With my words immortalized by the silent recording machines of ashcroft, I say to you now: You will not get away with this. To form this message around the everpresent eschatology of your worldview: One day the skies will part, and Jesus Christ will come flying down to dispel... understanding and love on the world, the whole world. Buddah will be on his right, Mohammad on his left, with every god anyone has ever imagined. Because they're all manifestations of ecstasy, they're all the same person. The one that you can't learn about from loose interpretations of various conflicting texts. This God is an enigma, easy to find, yet oh so difficult. I can't imagine being a surfer, having seen what i've seen, and believing in such a selective, malevolent deity. The Great Spirit loves everyone on earth, he does not care what culture they come from, what spiritual traditions they have been trained to follow. He will heal those who greet him. He will teach you gently and carefully that you were misled on earth. He will point out to you that hating gays is as much an abberation as hating blacks was in the 50's. Culturally acceptable during that time period, but overwhelmingly wrong from one dimension up. God will speak this to you, and show you the true path. He will show you the hints he left us, in the trees, in the streams, in the nude body of a female, he will explain to you what they mean: that the world is made of love. YOu will weep with the realisation, but the Spirit will soothe and forgive you.


--------------------
_______________________________________________________________
namaste said:
no flamz in da ODD, if you got nothing to contribute then keep yo lips zipped
_________________________________________________________________


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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: Christianity [Re: Digs]
    #1699536 - 07/09/03 02:20 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Christianity as we know and lo|(ve/athe) it today is at least two major steps removed from JC's teachings (whoever he was - enlightened is a good explanation.)

Step 1 is Paul, who took over the early Christian church, and battled the apostles over official dogma. His version is quite different from apparent "direct" quotes from JC (even in the official Bible).

Step 2 is the council of ....of....Niceria(?) which ...I think was 300AD ish. The Christian religion (as you know) was adopted by the Romans as the official state religion, but continued to splinter (and contained heretic groups) until this council sat down to hash out the official line of theology (some of the heretics believed stuff that was threatening to the state etc). There was a great deal of compromise, and eventually an official creed was ratified. Also they decided which books were to be canonized in the Bible.

If you're at all interested in this stuff, look for early Gnostic writings - they were groups who claimed to be uninfluenced by Paul's apostasy. The Gnostic scriptures is a good book which contained several of the books that the above mentioned council *didn't* include, because they contradicted the official line.

Anyone who is a mainstream Christian today should realize that their truth comes from Paul & Rome - so you'd be better off calling yourself a Paulian or a Roman, than anything else.


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OfflineFunguy
Homo SapiensEntheogenous
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Registered: 01/07/03
Posts: 2,415
Loc: Muffy
Last seen: 6 months, 6 days
Re: Christianity [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1699600 - 07/09/03 02:44 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I'm going to do a little research, and I'll post my rebuttal in a couple of days. Feel free to pm me for a more personal story of how I became a Christian. Love and peace!


--------------------

OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Christianity [Re: Digs]
    #1699651 - 07/09/03 02:59 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Cool man, with that kind of a home base, I think you could learn much more easily than those who have to unlearn and drop so many preconceived notions. A very prosperous home base you have, indeed.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisible2Experimental
Male User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 18,073
Re: Christianity [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1699762 - 07/09/03 03:26 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)




"Step 2 is the council of ....of....Niceria(?) which ...I think was 300AD ish. The Christian religion (as you know) was adopted by the Romans as the official state religion, but continued to splinter (and contained heretic groups) until this council sat down to hash out the official line of theology (some of the heretics believed stuff that was threatening to the state etc). There was a great deal of compromise, and eventually an official creed was ratified. Also they decided which books were to be canonized in the Bible. "




Ive heard this before but dont know what to think of it, the idea that the christian religion as it is widely accepted today was basicly created and shaped to fit how the romans saw fit is big concept to swallow for many. I think it had much vallidity though

0.02$


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OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 14 days, 18 minutes
Re: Christianity [Re: 2Experimental]
    #1699805 - 07/09/03 03:40 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

the idea that the christian religion as it is widely accepted today was basicly created and shaped to fit how the romans saw fit is big concept to swallow for many.




Yeah, but it does explain a lot of the murders committed or instigated by the Roman Catholic Church during the last 1700 years. And the fact why it took 400 years before a Pope could admit that the Catholic Church had been wrong for centuries, and finally acknowledged that Galileo was right about the planets and the Sun.

Now would any servants of God with any pretentions of credibility stick their head up their asses for so long, and refuse to recognize the true form of God's creation for 400 years?

Not likely.

The miracle of Christianity is that the message from Jesus still survived, despite the Catholic Church and all its clones. That's very impressive!


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Offlinenubious
1up on the rest

Registered: 10/20/02
Posts: 534
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 15 days, 2 hours
Re: Christianity [Re: 2Experimental]
    #1699857 - 07/09/03 04:02 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Jesus was not just a man, He is fully God and fully man.

Did he not say that we are all gods?

In reality it is mass-psychosis.

I love you Mark :laugh:


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 9 months, 30 days
Re: Christianity [Re: nubious]
    #1699901 - 07/09/03 04:17 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

*Blush*


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
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Re: Christianity [Re: Funguy]
    #1699934 - 07/09/03 04:29 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Would you kill men over the Filioque? Would you go to war and kill to defend one position or the other as to whether: 1) The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, or 2) the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son, Who proceeds from the Father? Would you fight to the death to defend this theological argument? This is what divided the Catholic Church from the Orthodox Church. Is there a real question here? Is there any answer to an intellectual speculation about the Divine Economia - the Inner Life of the Godhead - about which only God knows? Is this important to the functioning spiritual life of human beings?

We Know only this: Love God and Love One Another. THIS is the true Gnosis. This is all we Know. Point to your Self. Where are you pointing? Is it your Heart. There is where He Art.  :heartpump:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (07/09/03 04:32 PM)


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: Christianity [Re: Funguy]
    #1699948 - 07/09/03 04:36 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Most of the world's religions are a way for man to reach God, but Christianity is the only one where God reached man.




didnt god reveal its existance to muhammed through revelation?

but, yeah i guess christianity is (ethno?)-centric, so....we'll just disregard islam and hinduism.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 5 years, 25 days
Re: Christianity [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1700066 - 07/09/03 05:20 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"It is not your place to call me or anyone a heretic"

It is the Christian's duty to defend the faith and reprove false doctrine. Doctrine does not cause salvation. Salvation is conditioned soley on Christ's work alone on the cross for His elect people. Correct doctrine is a result of regeneration and is evidence of salvation. Those who resist and twist true doctrine show themselves to be reprobates.

It would be unloving not to correct a person who proclaims false doctrine.

Titus 3:10-11
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

2 Timothy 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.




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Invisiblechunder
marker

Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 966
Loc: The City
Re: Christianity [Re: fivepointer]
    #1700102 - 07/09/03 05:33 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"Correct doctrine is a result of regeneration and is evidence of salvation."

So 'salvation' must come before the process of understanding scripture?


--------------------


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Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
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Last seen: 5 years, 25 days
Re: Christianity [Re: chunder]
    #1700220 - 07/09/03 06:25 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"So 'salvation' must come before the process of understanding scripture?"

The correct term would be "regeneration" must come before the scriptures can be understood.

Fallen man is at complete enmity with God in his soul.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The Holy Spirit must open and apply the Word to the heart.

John 3:3 3:8
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The Holy Spirit's work is only known after the fact.

John 3:8
The wind (greek for Spirit) bloweth where it listeth (wills), and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Those born of God are not born by the will of the flesh, but of God.

John 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Lydia had her heart opened and then she understood.

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

The many Gentiles heard the Word and understood, why, because they were ordained to eternal life. This shows the cause - ordination.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Why do some not believe? Because they are not of His sheep. His sheep were given to Him by the Father and shall never perish.

John 10:26-29
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.



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Invisiblealakona
I threw my slippers at the beast
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/09/03
Posts: 14,795
Loc: ville.
Re: Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1700274 - 07/09/03 06:47 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

tis nothing. read it, im sure youll enjoy it. its full of great points and thinkings.


--------------------
making you want to be a better person since 2008. 


TrippinTeddy said:
sometimes when I'm raping a bitch, I like to tickle her ribs and under neath her arms, and I say "loosen up bitch, lets have fun now because if I have to kill your squirming ass, only one of us will be having fun, and you can't have a party all by yourself can you?" Then its usually all laughs and good times from there.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christianity [Re: fivepointer]
    #1700447 - 07/09/03 07:39 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

The Nag Hammadi codices were not even discovered until 1945. Included among them was the complete Gospel of Thomas. I recommend that you read some of Princeton scholar Elaine Pagel's works ('The Gnostic Gospels,' or 'The Gnostic Paul'). I bought her last book this very day - 'Beyond Belief.'

The Church Fathers who edited the other Christian books out of the canon, now referred to as Apocryphal writings, were at something of a loss - a great loss - because all of the information was not available. The Gospel of John might not have made it into the canon because it is Gnostic in flavor, and the Revelations of John is only one of several apocalyptic pieces that the editors decided to include. Feeling wild and crazy that day I suppose.

Just because Paul talks down those so-called Gnostics who were 'puffed up' with a kind of Knowledge, which led some to the conclusion that once saved, one could be as libertarian as one wanted, does not condemn all of the movements referred to generally as Gnosticism. Pagel's Gnostic Paul shows line-by-line how Gnostic the Biblical Paul's words are. Some Gnostics rejected Paul, others embraced him utterly.

Just what constitutes heresy - for you - has been carefully honed and handed down, to all of us, by these very human Churchmen (not women, despite Clement of Alexandria's position that women could become priests). It was THEIR decisions that determined what writings YOU could consider to be the Word of God. Their misogynistic mentalities, unBiblical celibate priesthood ideals, and their political agendas for controlling the masses all entered into what ancient writings would henceforth be taken as Holy Writ. Now take the Protestant mentality back to the beginning, and protest if one will, that with much more information at one's modern disposal, every man of faith ought to be able to determine doctrine. And as Clement said, true Gnosis is not apart from one's faith experience.

As for me - I was predominantly a Johannine Christian until I discovered Thomas, and it is this Gospel that speaks to MY faith experience. It is the Gospel of Thomas that describes MY experience of Christ moreso than the other canonical books or Nag Hammadi writings. Thomas may indeed be the earliest fragments of an oral tradition that preceded even Mark's source. If I reserve the right to come to my own, free-willed decisions, based upon my own scholarship and conscience, I do not necessarily hold 'wrong views' (heresies), based on dated and incomplete early Christian scholarship. As Archbishop J.S. Spong titled one of his books: 'Christianity Must Change or Die.'


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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