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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #778461 - 07/26/02 11:56 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

streching it swami.
but peace braa.


Perhaps, but who took the greatest interest in you (though we had no previous encounter) when there was the likelihood that you may have taken poisonous mushrooms?

Was it the atheistic Swami? *pats self on back* (I know this comes as a shock to all you Swami-bashers, that the old Swam is really a softy...)




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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #778464 - 07/26/02 12:00 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I could detect no humor in his post.

Didn't realize all my posts HAD TO BE witty. Will try harder to be clever in the future.



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Registered: 07/18/02
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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #778466 - 07/26/02 12:02 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

swami man! are you saying you've never seen a christian who acted like one? never met one? i've met a few actually. they seem perfect. always nice, never shocked, so at peace, so loving, so helpful, so willing to give up theirs for somebody else and always with a smile. i'm sure mother theresa showed she was a christian by her fruits. what about the religious who work among the poor? living destitute with the poor? just trying to make their life better....do you do that?
i know i don't. i wish i was a better person, but i'm not.


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Peace and Love to all!

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Registered: 07/18/02
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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #778469 - 07/26/02 12:05 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

yes swami, and i have very deep respect for you. i thank you for all your help in that. but it did seem streched just a wee bit thar. christians aren't THAT bad. and neither are athiests. we make each other seem ten times worse than we really are.


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Peace and Love to all!

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #778488 - 07/26/02 12:20 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

swami man! are you saying you've never seen a christian who acted like one?
Didn't say that. Have you never met a Christian that didn't act like one? Have you never met an atheist whose actions you would deem as Christ-like? As a generalized group, the statistics are the same as for atheists.

Perhaps my latest ire is due to dating nothing but divorced Christian women who will sleep with me almost immediately then preach to me or tell me that I am unsuitable as a potential partner (because of belief). The hypocrisy gets quite tiring.

Or my born-again evangelical Baptist brother breaking my Catholic mom's heart, by telling her she is NOT a Christian and will burn in hell. How loving!



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #778491 - 07/26/02 12:22 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Thank you for the clarification.

1. As you intimated most Christians do not live up to their cognomen. Therefore, I deduce they are not what they say they are. Your point is well taken. However, that does not mean that there are no people of faith that live up to their cognomen. In order to find them you have to be around a lot of "Christians". That is too difficult for some. I have met quite a few Christians that are truly Christ-like, but I had to sift through a lot of chaff to meet them.

2. I would never require you to be other than what you are. If you are witty, fine. If not, fine as well.

3. If I find flaws in your thinking I will call you on it. I expect the same from you.

Cheers,

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Anonymous

Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #778499 - 07/26/02 12:29 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Or my born-again evangelical Baptist brother breaking my Catholic mom's heart, by telling her she is NOT a Christian and will burn in hell. How loving!

I am sorry to hear that you have that kind of "Christian", meaning your brother, in your family. I have a few of those myself. Gee, aren't families fun?

Cheers,

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: ]
    #779133 - 07/26/02 07:27 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

baptist's are the only ones who tell me i'm going to hell for being catholic. not all baptists mind you, but enough for me to be instantly wary when one says, "yeah i go to first baptist church." but it bugs me when i do that. i shouldn't, because each person i meet is new. regardless of wether or not they happen to follow a group that has done me wrong before...was it that particular person who did me wrong?

which one of the first baptist churches was first?


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!

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OfflineEndlessJourney
Crazy Man In TheCorner
Registered: 12/20/01
Posts: 8
Loc: Parkwood in Far Northeast...
Last seen: 21 years, 8 months
Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #779180 - 07/26/02 07:55 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Im not realy sure who in these threads that im directing this to but after reading the whole thing.....I came to the conclusion that
1) Everybody has faith in somthing (even if somthing is nothing)
2)There is definately not a heaven or hell. Humans just felt lonely so they ignored the obvious powers of nature and created a God and laws.
3)These laws were meant to keep everyone in line but where you have rules you have people that break rules.
4)Jesus was a cool dude, realy peaceful. He revised the religous beliefs of the time.
5)We need a new Jesus to rexplain things for everyone
6)Buddah was also a cool dude he did the same thing in the east what jesus did in the west
7)peace on earth would be cool, but if everyone wants it then where is it?
8) If everyone smoked a little pot evey once in a while things would be alot calmer.
9)What is religion anyway?
10) Remember "The walrus and the Carpenter" from alice in wonderland?

"The Walrus And The Carpenter"
Think about it this way. The walrus represents Buddah and the Gods of the East. The Carpenter represents Jesus the Carpenter son of Joseph the carpenter, and the Christian saviorof the west.
The message...Watch the segment. All organised religions lead to certain demise.
..............?
I think we should tune into the natural magic of nature and lead our own beliefs and think of the logical answers to life's questions. We dont need a priest to help us talk to "god" or the spirits of the universe. Remember we are all individuals. Belisfs that work for one person may not work for everyone else.
We are in a new era. organised religion is not sufficient anymore to explain the mysteries of religion

If anyone reading this dissagrees with anything i said, please let me know because my beliefs allow me to learn from others as well as my own experience.

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Registered: 07/18/02
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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: EndlessJourney]
    #779219 - 07/26/02 08:16 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

i disagree.


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Peace and Love to all!

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #779527 - 07/27/02 03:28 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Morality doesn't come from a book, it needs to be taught, and it develops in childhood along certain noticeable lines. Jean Piaget and Lawrence Kohlberg, among the original investigators, have elaborated 6 different levels of morality. A hypothetical 7th was suggested, but secular people didn't take to it, and it is of a spiritual nature.

All people have faith in something, even their senses and reasoning. You claim to believe in compassion, empathy and love. These are transcendental properties insofar as they all (related as they are) require the surpassing of one's desire-based ego in order to be manifested. Selflessness is in common to all three manifestations of THAT consciousness which acts in those ways. Now, if indeed you do embrace this Way of Being as central and as the 'Master motive' of your personality, then you have indeed established a spiritual faith that you have simply not been able to articulate as of yet. To deny belief in God in this case is a blatant contradiction IF you are truthful about these values. You may not believe in a childish Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky, like a mythological Zeus, but that is a good thing. You will have to Realize eventually that Ultimate Reality, as personified, is commonly referred to as God; and that God as Creator and Redeemer is not less than personal (since we, the creation are personal), but Suprapersonal.

Transcendental facets within our personality are not merely 'natural,' or 'animal,' but derive from a Transcendental Source. Selfishness is the natural condition. Morality can be mere social conditioning, and life will test it's grounding. If it is grounded in faith - in a Transcendental Source, it will be constant in a crisis; if mere conditioning, it will cave in at the first real crisis or temptation.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #779540 - 07/27/02 03:51 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Wow!...All of YOUR years of study. One young life who can't find Truth within his own midst. You have no faith in those good people who have articulated this Way of Being for centuries, and just because YOU have not possessed the faith to ASK for spiritual reassurance or comfort, you become agnostic or a cynic or a scientific materialist? Maybe that's your problem - YOU are in your own way. Maybe the humbling, foolish act that seems like talking to the air or talking to yourself holds the key to 'becoming as a little child' in order to experience the 'Kingdom of Heaven.' I'm referring to prayer - you CAN petition the LORD with prayer!

Now, the Brilliant Singularity is clearly a symbol of Christian mystical experience to me, and if humbly, and I repeat HUMBLY prepared, that Singularity - the Logos through which God continually begets existence from the heart of every atom - WILL manifest in your heart of hearts. It happened to me because I wanted it, knowing full well it would change me forever, despite the fact that it would alienate my family and friends. It has not made me a robot, but has improved the quality and passion of my life throughout all of life's hardships: disease, divorce and death. I'm not your role model, but I've been a cynic and I've been a believer. Let me tell you, I lost nothing of value but gained Everything by the choice.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (07/27/02 07:37 AM)

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Registered: 07/18/02
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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #779577 - 07/27/02 04:45 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

bravo markos. your articulation on this subject is very very good braa.


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #779778 - 07/27/02 07:39 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Thank, whiterastahippie.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #779825 - 07/27/02 08:08 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Wow!...All of YOUR years of study. One young life who can't find Truth within his own midst.
This assumes two things:

1. That there is an ultimate truth that is discoverable.

2. That some methodology will lead you to it.

I had faith in both of these and discovered nothing. That is the main point of my rant. Out of millions of believers, no one or extremely few "get it" else their outward life would be somehow affected.

I metioned a few months back how my last role model (Swami Kriyananda who was forced to leave the country for sexual indiscretion in his 70s!) fell by the wayside. Here is a man who devoted his entire life to chanting, prayer, affirmation, yoga, pranayama, reading of the scriptures, leading a simple life, etc. If he could not "get it" then how is it more likely for me?

You have no faith in those good people who have articulated this Way of Being for centuries,
I did once upon a time.

and just because YOU have not possessed the faith to ASK for spiritual reassurance or comfort, you become agnostic or a cynic or a scientific materialist?
I have prayed and found nobody home.






--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #780241 - 07/27/02 12:04 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

"baptist's are the only ones who tell me i'm going to hell for being catholic. not all baptists mind you, but enough for me to be instantly wary when one says, "yeah i go to first baptist church." but it bugs me when i do that. i shouldn't, because each person i meet is new. regardless of wether or not they happen to follow a group that has done me wrong before...was it that particular person who did me wrong?

which one of the first baptist churches was first? "

Yes but it is hard to get away from generalizing when you have had numerous exposures to a group and they have all been bad.

Which one was first? The first one, of course!

Cheers,

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: Swami]
    #780903 - 07/27/02 06:47 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I feel for you...and I'm not being facetious. During the mid 70's I went to a 'happening' at St. John the DIvine's Cathedral in NYC. I don't remember all the famous 'holy guys' who were there, but I do remember Swami Satchitananda and the Sufi Pir Vilayat. Shortly after, I was completing teacher-training in Transcendental Meditation, and was going to have to receive initiation in Switzerland by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi himself. Some weeks before I would have left, I 'happened upon' a document written by a Christian who had defected from the higher ranks of TM. It showed me the intentional deceptions concerning the nature of the mantras (references were to Sir Arthur Avalon's 'Garland of Letters.' Avalon is a great authority on Indian spirituality; he wrote 'the Serpent Power,' which is still definitive on Kundalini Yoga). Anyway...I was being greatly deceived by doctrines and practices, which I'll not bore you with, but if there is one thing I won't tolerate, it's lying - the very root of evil and the enemy of Truth. I could tell you all kinds of tales about gurus and swamis, like the chubby Maharishi of the Divine Light Mission, who lived in an estate on Long Island where I went to college, and would ride around on a lawnmower. He'd ask people, 'Do you know the secret of Life, Spirit and Death? Code for LSD.' I'm gonna bow down before some fat little Hindu con man? I saw people give away all they had to live in shitty little communes. I didn't then, nor do I now, require another man or woman to tell me how to live.

Techniques for guiding one's mind into inner channels, drops, winds can be found at Snow Lion Press; or finding the inner Christ in the Writings from the Philokalia (Orthodox Christian contemplatives); or classic Yoga texts. Techniques are just scaffolding. Clearly the Universe was created. I don't think many scientists hold to a Steady State theory any more - maybe an Oscillating Universe, as the Hindus say - but the space-time continuum was created from a Singularity at 10 to the minus 43rd secod. The origin of that Singularity - for me - is God. Kabbalists say that God contracted his Essence to create an infinitesimal 'void' in his Essential Nature, and that void was the Singularity. "Fiat Lux !" Try to remember the expanded created universe and trace back to it's inception, to remind yourself of God in His Creative aspect. This remembering back from phenomena to its Noumenal and Numinous Source is a logical contemplation that may well result in a breakthrough moment of personal revelation for you. As the Guru (the only one I've ever regarded as genuine) Neem Karoli Baba said to Ram Dass: "Love everyone; Serve everyone and Remember God."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinetherewatchingme
The GreatMilenko

Registered: 07/09/02
Posts: 217
Last seen: 21 years, 7 months
Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #781275 - 07/28/02 12:05 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)



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[Everything stated above is, fictional, and is a result of a delusional mind, role playing]

Edited by therewatchingme (07/28/02 12:06 AM)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Christian and the Atheist [Re: therewatchingme]
    #781420 - 07/28/02 04:15 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Well, I'm not from Vulcan. God is not "a being." God is the Ground of Being. The mind is a wonderful servant and a terrible master.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinetherewatchingme
The GreatMilenko

Registered: 07/09/02
Posts: 217
Last seen: 21 years, 7 months
Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: therewatchingme]
    #781428 - 07/28/02 04:30 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)



--------------------
[Everything stated above is, fictional, and is a result of a delusional mind, role playing]

Edited by therewatchingme (07/28/02 04:37 AM)

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