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Anonymous
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 Post deleted by Anno 
#2400845 - 03/03/04 11:24 PM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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 Gorian
Learning the artof Shroom
Registered: 04/28/03
Posts: 291
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: ]
#2400877 - 03/03/04 11:37 PM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Seems the same thing happened to both of us. As you said i was raised in america and to be christian. I also accepted the faith unquestioningly myself , but when i turned 10 , maybe 12 i questioned the fact i had never been spoken to , or given a sign by "God". I then questioned the religion and thought for myself.
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 Shroomism
Space Travellin
 
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension 
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 Re: Why I hate christians [Re: ]
#2400912 - 03/03/04 11:53 PM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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I too, was raised christian, and grew to despise it. There are any number of reasons, which would take a short story to explain satisfactorily.. but I can sum it up in a few words.. self-righteousness, hypocrisy, judgement, condescending vindictiveness. Of course there are exceptions to any rule, but that is a very large portion of the "christians" I know and have known. I was forced to go to christian church until I was old enough to refuse, and even then it was an extreme struggle and pain in the ass. It was shoved down my throat, and I saw through many years and several denominations, the complete and utter hypocritical behaviour, thinking, and action that plagues it. But now I don't give a shit, unless someone tries to shove it down my throat again, or tell me I am going to burn in hell because I don't go to church. Believe whatever you want, just don't bring judgements on me goddamnit. The only person you can judge is your self. That's a christian principle somewhere, but it got lost under the editing from the Church?
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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 Re: Why I hate christians [Re: ]
#2400954 - 03/04/04 12:13 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hate takes too much energy from me. I find christianity to be more of an annoyance than anything. I can usually stop most christians from spurting their bile in about two sentences... so that's not really that much of a problem.
My problem isn't Christianity-specific, though it does affect most (if not all) christians. My problem is one of people not thinking things through to an end and not going back to clean up the inconsistencies.
I won't even bother with trying to simplify my thoughts on this issue... it's far too detailed. I've gone over these memes so much in my life, that they've compiled themselves into archetypes. These archetypes aren't communicable... they're like compressed files that can only be transmitted in an uncompressed form.
I really wish I could download and upload archetypes to and from my brain in a timely manner. Alas....
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Frog
Warrior
Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: ]
#2401199 - 03/04/04 01:36 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think the problem on this forum is that people generalize. You stereotype. And you all have accused others of doing the same thing, in different contexts.
I have run into the same problem that all of you have run into with Christians. I remember a Christian saying to me that if I really and truly believed in God, I wouldn't need counseling. This was at a point in my life when I felt like killing myself, after a lifetime of sexual, emotional and physical abuse, at the hands of my parents. I think I have a pretty good right to hate Christians.
But I studied the bible, I read books for and against God and Jesus and other stuff, I listened to radio programs, I talked to people.
There are some fucked up people in this world. Some of them post here. Some of them are Christians. Some of them are Atheists. Some of them are in-between.
If a black person robbed you, would you go around saying black people are fucked up? Nope. Politically incorrect.
If a Christian is stupid and says you are going to hell if you don't go to church every Sunday, do you say all Christians are ignorant and stupid? Yep.
Some of us Christians actually believe in the teachings of Jesus, and don't judge others. So when you come on the forum and say all of us Christians are fucked up because of the rantings of a few, or even most, you are stereotyping, and generalizing, and judging. Coincidentally, as a Christian, I've been accused of doing the same thing on this forum. 
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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Anonymous
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Post deleted by Anno [Re: Frog]
#2401236 - 03/04/04 01:54 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Frog
Warrior
Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: ]
#2401254 - 03/04/04 02:01 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Here's my reasoning for posting here, as a "Christian":
I want someone to knock my beliefs down or add to them. Yes, believe it or not, I'm not so stuck on my beliefs as a Christian and on what I have learned so far that I'm about to go around shoving themd down your throat.
I have discovered in the last couple of years that there is more to life than what the bible says. The bible doesn't cover it "all", in my opinion.
Damn. Starbucks is closing down. I guess this means I can't finish this discussion.
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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: ]
#2401257 - 03/04/04 02:02 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Moreso than that, I think, is the Bible. No other book has caused so much controversy, ever. No other book has been so dramatically edited, misinterpreted, and abused. People talk about it like it's a divine entity. It's a collection of writings, written over 2,000 years ago, for people 2,000 years ago. God didn't write it, humans did. Misinterpretations ocurred. The roman church came along, took the bible, changed it, warped it, twisted it to their needs. They were now the middle man to god, in a position of political power and wealth. Woohoo.
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Anonymous
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Post deleted by Anno [Re: Shroomism]
#2401263 - 03/04/04 02:07 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: ]
#2401276 - 03/04/04 02:13 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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and meditation, before they decided that if people can help themselves, they wouldn't need church, and that just wouldn't do. God isn't within you...it's an external force is what they want you to think. Come pay god money and listen to vague semantics and subjective overinterpretations of a tainted message.
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kb73
enthusiast
Registered: 10/18/01
Posts: 369
Loc: Abilene, TX
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: Shroomism]
#2401306 - 03/04/04 02:29 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Shroomism said:
The only person you can judge is your self. That's a christian principle somewhere, but it got lost under the editing from the Church?
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Matthew 7:1-2
37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Luke 6:37-38
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Romans 2:1
10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' " Romans 14:10-11
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. 1 Corinthians 4:5
1If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
1 Corinthians 6:1-3
11Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor?
James 4:11-12
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WARNING chronicshroom will rip you off! Don't trade with him! I sent him 20 spore syringes and he never sent me anything.
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sakura
Aussie Expat
Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 592
Loc: Japan
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: ]
#2401326 - 03/04/04 02:50 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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I have no comment on the validity of Buddhism, Islam or faith other than Christianity as a belief system... I have, at best, a superficial understanding of these beliefs.
I am always happy to read a citique by someone who has obviously thought deeply about the issues, but I do get annoyed by anti-christian posts written by folks who obviously know very little about it.
I know a little about the life of Siddhartha Guatama. I understand the basic concepts of Buddhism (The eight-fold Path to Enlightenment), however, I don't feel that my knowledge is anywhere near sufficient to comment on the validity (or lack thereof) of the Buddhist faith...
I have read many critiques of the Christian faith (in this and other forums) written by people who seem to know far less about Christian aplologetics than I do about Buddhism...
Simple predjudice and past issues causes many to be antagonistic towards the Christian faith without even understanding why... If you approach any debate totally convinced of the other side's 'wrongness' (Yes, this applies to both sides of the fence) and study the evidence with only the purpose of 'proving' your existing opinions, you probably will...
Calling anybody's 'Holy Book' a load of crap is bad manners anyway. There are much nicer ways to express disagreement and all of us should respect each other and try them...
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Shrooms aren't everyone's cup of tea... (Some folks just eat 'em)
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: ]
#2401328 - 03/04/04 02:53 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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I went through my whole Christian-hating phase and then grew out of it. Now I try to accept Christianity just as I would any other religion. Of course, if you question the validity of a Christian's beliefs, such as creationism, they'll sometimes think you're being mean. But I do the same to any religion. That's actually part of how I came to leave the Wiccan religion--when I figured out that it wasn't some ancient religion going back thousands of years, but rather some beliefs that someone made up sometime in the early 20th Century(then there was also the part about realizing that magick didn't work). Most Christians are well-meaning people, and it's important to see their humanity, even if some of them have some pretty strange beliefs. Like Sclorch said, hate takes too much energy. I just laugh at some of the religious whackos you see on TV or on the street corner. Then I think about how much influence some of those people have on our domestic and foreign policy, and my laughter turns to tears.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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sakura
Aussie Expat
Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 592
Loc: Japan
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: silversoul7]
#2401345 - 03/04/04 03:12 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Nice post silversoul...
It's possible to be a Christian without being a fundamentalist. I have a very liberal view of Creation... (I think Genesis expresses the Purpose of Creation in terms a very simple society could have understood easily).
It's OK to question everything, and it's OK to be a 'heretic' if you examine the issues and your heart and your logic take you outside the 'safe' realms of acceptable dogma (you'll be in good company anyway).
It's not good to 'blindly' believe ANYTHING... Evolutionists should have a good hard look at the maths... Christians should
balance their beliefs against the archaelogical record (Yes, I do know of Creation Scientist's creative attempts to balance this against what they are not prepared to disbelieve... Some of the arguments I have found credible, but not many).
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Shrooms aren't everyone's cup of tea... (Some folks just eat 'em)
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Alan Stone
Corpus
Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: ]
#2401346 - 03/04/04 03:13 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't hate Christians, in fact, I don't hate anyone. There are worse things than hating someone IMO, like dispising them, or - better yet - ignoring their existance.
Back on topic. My beef, as it were, with Christianity, is that it's become derailed. It's not about the friendly relationship of mutual support with God anymore, it's back to the basics of wanting miracles or interventions into your own life. The reason? The church, any form of centralised, institutionalised institution.
Jesus never spoke about what you have to do to get into heaven, that was irrelevant to him. The type of relationship with God, and interhuman relationships mattered to him. He strived for two things mainly: the exploitation of God through means of demanding his help (friends don't demand help from each other, they just talk about what's going on and the friend helps out on his/her own accord - in ideal situations of course) and the disappearance of the scapegoat mentality that Jews in his times had, and some of today's world leaders still have (Crusades on Muslim Terrorists, anyone?).
Christianity in its core has nothing to do with heaven and hell, angels, demons, saints, or whatever fairy tales. It's a way of life, and a way of relating to God.
The judgement, self-righteousness, closed-mindedness, etc has been supported for centuries by the church, and is in fact its way of running a profitable business. If you can scare people into believing they'll burn forever if they sin, I'll bet you your absolution tickets will sell better.
My idea: blow up all churches (evacuate them if you must, first), hang the pope as an accesory to millions of deaths (prohibiting condoms in today's world, tssk tssk) and start from bloody scratch.
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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
- Aristotle
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MadHamish
Tourist on Earth
Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 24
Loc: A coffee shop in Holland
Last seen: 21 years, 29 days
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: silversoul7]
#2401379 - 03/04/04 03:51 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Shroomism said: God isn't within you...it's an external force is what they want you to think
Untrue, not a few will argue that the Man is within ye. If it is a lucritive doctrine imposed on the pious by the clergy, that's a matter of opinion. 
I have to agree with Frog concerning one finds himself generalising quite too fast when it comes to this subject. It is, indeed, sometimes infuriating when ye know for certain that this man in front of ye is being brainwashed by the clergy (or others). That his opinions, mindframes, etc, are based on worn-out ideas of an old fashioned "corporation" that specialises in telling people what to think. But that man is not representative for the lot that is labelled 'Christians'. There is such a diversity between Christians that one cannot possibly label them all with the same tag.
Although the bible is a copy of a copy (to the power of,.. what? infinity  ), and rewritten along the way, it definitely, as I see it, holds some valuable lessons. I believe it can have a tremendous impact on society when one familiarises himself with the moral teachings that are introduced by the book. Don't look at it as a book of truths, but a book that may guide ye in a social context. We can all, I believe, agree that one should nog steal, not lie, etc. and that a society based on love is a more attractive one than a society based on hatred.
If yer disgusted, upset, hateful towards Christians will ye then not participate in rituals, that were implemented through a process that surely involved Christianity, like marriage? Or are ye only rejecting the behaviour of a person and letting other Christian elements to remain in yer life?
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Valar Morghulis
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: MadHamish]
#2401440 - 03/04/04 04:36 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MadHamish said:
There is such a diversity between Christians that one cannot possibly label them all with the same tag.
Exactly. The phrase "Christian" is useless and shouldn't be used when it comes to a person's personal beliefs. Calling oneself "Christian" or anything else doesn't represent your beliefs because it is a far too general term to be able to accurately portray those acutal beliefs.
I don't sum up who I am as a person as saying I am an "American". That may be where I was born and where I will be soon again, but other than that, the term serves no purpose. And the term "American" actually serves more use than the term "Christian" because it at least says one specific thing: "I am from America". What does saying "I am a Christian" say?
I've read the Bible, I am a confirmed and baptized Lutheran, I've had Sunday School and have went to church many a times... am I a Christian? I don't call myself a Christian. And towards what you said, there are some good lessons of Christianity, in the message itself, and I hold to them.
However, I also draw in ideas and beliefs from many other sources, a lot of them saying the exact same thing. I still don't consider myself a Christian, and it is a general label that is effectively useless.
All we are are vessels passing along ideas. The idea of copyrighting an idea doesn't make sense to me. I've never felt that I've come acrossed something that was special and unique to me and that should be declared its own path or whatever.. I seriously think categorizing us in that way harms us and it pollutes our Experience and our interactions.
Saying "I am Christian" belies your individuality and who you are and allows others to totally make too many assumptions that taint our ideas of who others are. When it comes to discussing beliefs, why can't we just come right out and say what we believe?
Peace.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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Spokesman
The HighPhilosopher
Registered: 08/05/03
Posts: 847
Loc: New Jersey U.S.
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: ]
#2401452 - 03/04/04 04:48 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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You think being raised in America dictates your religion, try being raised in a small Caribbean island. Not believing in God is worst than plotting to assassinate a president.  It's a miracle there not still burning people at a stake down there. This whole continent was founded by Christianity. I sometimes feel as if we deny our children that knowledge for some reason. Anyway i was raised Christian and when my teenage years came by and i saw how far fetched and contradicting it's teachings was i grew further and further until i saw anyone who believed in God as inferior. But then i started putting pieces of the puzzle together. Saw what these these teachings were really about. Whats wrong about them and whats good about them.
The problem with Christianity is it's separation from science. When you read the bible you have to understand that these are ancient books, written by early men with early ideas. AT that time, religion WAS the only science. Now when through our science we start to contradict these teachings, people abandon these teachings and ideals. We went beyond our atmosphere and saw there was no "heaven" which led Christians to say "Well, then our lord has to exist in some sort of multi-dimensional existence... yeah thats it!". No one cared to think " Maybe those suns and planets out there, maybe thats where our Gods came from?". And thats my problem with the current establishment of Christianity.
I now belive alot of the scriptures are true and read the Bible with the intent of learning and not with the great deal of skepticism i used to. I say if you wish to learn things on your own and not be told what to think, stay away from orginized religion. And YOU yourself read the scriptures and come up with your own interpretation and ideas. Just because you dont believe a boy-hungry Priest dosn't mean you can't believe in God.
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kb73
enthusiast
Registered: 10/18/01
Posts: 369
Loc: Abilene, TX
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: ]
#2401473 - 03/04/04 05:11 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Why I hate christians
See how my enemies have increased and how fiercely they hate me! Psalm 25:19
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[1] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[2] and pray for those who persecute you Matthew 5:43-44
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. Matthew 10:22
9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other Matthew 24:9-10
22Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.23"Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets. Luke 6:22-23
The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil. John 7:7
18"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. John 15:17-19
He who hates me hates my Father as well. John 15:23
Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. 1 John 3:13
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. 1 John 3:15
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WARNING chronicshroom will rip you off! Don't trade with him! I sent him 20 spore syringes and he never sent me anything.
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Spokesman
The HighPhilosopher
Registered: 08/05/03
Posts: 847
Loc: New Jersey U.S.
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: kb73]
#2401476 - 03/04/04 05:16 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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What'd you do? Search the word "hate" on The Electronic Bible" or something?
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: Spokesman]
#2401493 - 03/04/04 05:29 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Not the mention the fact that he said right away in his post that he really doesn't hate Christians, or the fact that using the Bible to justify the Bible and beliefs from it doesn't really make sense.
Oh no, it says if I don't believe in it I go to Hell! I HAVE to believe in it now!
Peace.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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kb73
enthusiast
Registered: 10/18/01
Posts: 369
Loc: Abilene, TX
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
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Yeah...I was bored...
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MNS
Stranger
Registered: 02/27/04
Posts: 133
Loc: somewhere
Last seen: 20 years, 8 months
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: ]
#2401527 - 03/04/04 06:00 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hello all, I just wanted to post a response here.....
I am an American as well as a Christian, I also live in the Bible belt ( the south ) Every where you look there is a Church. In this one very very small town a few miles away there is 126 Churches! I go to Church on Sunday, I belive in God, the Devil, Heaven and Hell. I have questioned my religion several times, and I do think that most of America forces this belief on us. I am not sure that my religion is right, there is many many other religion out there that may be right, I do not know. But what I belive is that if you do right by YOUR religion you will be rewarded in the after life. I say that because, whatever religion you may be, that is usually how you grew up, that is what you were thought all your life, that is all you know. Also if you are a good person, and have a good heart, and if you do something horrible you feel sorry that you did it, you will be rewarded in the after life. This is just how I belive, I do not know if you would call it a Christians beliefs, I am not sure what you would call it. It makes sense to me though. REMEMBER : this is IMO, it is not right or wrong.... it just works for me.
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MNS
Stranger
Registered: 02/27/04
Posts: 133
Loc: somewhere
Last seen: 20 years, 8 months
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: ]
#2401532 - 03/04/04 06:05 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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I wanted to state another opinion from a Christians point of view..........
I do think that the fact that the Chruch tries to scare us in to beliving in God and Jesus is a little screwed up, well a lot screwed up.
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Atomisk
all forms areself awareness
Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 164
Loc: jungle of love
Last seen: 20 years, 10 months
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 Re: Why I hate christians [Re: MNS]
#2401626 - 03/04/04 07:48 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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i think, in the end, it doesnt matter what you believed in or worshiped.
in the bigger picture it doeant matter whether you belived in napkins, or were a devote buddhist monk, or a "church" christian, or satanist, or new age spiritualist, or what have you.
im not saying that its worthless though. here on earth it does bring people peace, comfort, solace, joy, and even brings people together (yes, im well aware that it can do the opposite of these things as well).
imho, to believe that your faith is the only "right" one, or to bash someone elses, whether you do it in public or in privacy, shows bad form.
also, just b/c one was one raised a certain way doesnt mean he cant educated himself to something else (this goes for anything).
all religions hold great wisdom to be aquired with an open mind.
things are more integrated than they seem, they are better than they seem, and they are more mysterious than they seem...
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o house-builder! thou art seen. thou shalt build no house again. all thy rafters are broken. thy ridge-pole is shattered.
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MadHamish
Tourist on Earth
Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 24
Loc: A coffee shop in Holland
Last seen: 21 years, 29 days
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: Atomisk]
#2401733 - 03/04/04 08:19 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Spokesman said: The problem with Christianity is it's separation from science.
How would ye combine the two (back then or nowadays)? That's a tough nut to crack, methinks.
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Valar Morghulis
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Ped
Interested In Your Brain
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: ]
#2401748 - 03/04/04 08:23 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Instead of centralizing our discussion on Christians themselves, it is probably more helpful to speak about our experiences with Christians. It's our experiences with Christians which determine our view of them. Most of us, including the Christians here, have had many uncomfortable and sometimes traumatic experiences with Christians. We should not confuse our experiences with the object of those experiences. Our habit to confuse our experiences with the object of our experiences is precisely the reason why Christians come under such heavy fire on this board, or in any public forum. It's this trend which Fiend was intending to address, I believe.
Upon encountering uncomfortable feelings in any situation, it's our habit to believe that those uncomfortable feelings are emanating from the object which appeared immediately prior to those uncomfortable feelings. If our boss at the workplace behaves unreasonably and with contempt, we eventually come to view him as an actual object of aversion, inherently and from his own side. We say "He is a mean person" and go on believing so, sharing our belief with others who nod their heads in sympathy. We receive affirmation from our friends because discord with the boss is a common experience to which many can relate, directly or indirectly.
In the same way, if Christian people have caused us repeated discomfort, our natural human tendancy is to assume Christians to be actual objects of aversion, inherently and from their own side. It is a process of association over which we have very little control, similar to the excitement a domestic cat feels upon detecting the sound of a can opener, and the frantic actions that follow. This isn't the same as overgeneralizing, or being judgemental. It is a mental habit that all of us engage in continuously. Because this is something common to all of us, we should not view it as a crime when we see inviduals reacting strongly against Christians.
In fact, if it is our tendency to criticize individuals who interact poorly with Christians, we are caught in the same rut of a mental habit as those we accuse. We have confused our experience with the object of that experience. We have confused the appearance of undue hostility with the individual conveying the undue hostility, and have assumed that appearance to emanating from it's own side, from the individual. On this basis, we then erroneously conclude that individual to be misguided, and perhaps even develop our own undue hostility! Instead of looking for the source of the uncomfortable appearance, we have stopped our investigation at the object which appeared immediately prior to that appearance. How then can we criticize others while we ourselves are committing the same crimes as they?
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CleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: MadHamish]
#2401801 - 03/04/04 08:45 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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i believe moses was one of their times greatest natral scientist. the order of creation in genesis is the correct order evolution. he just did his best to make sense of the world/universe/self...just like we do.
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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?
this is the purpose
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MadHamish
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: Ped]
#2401886 - 03/04/04 09:12 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yet the source of the problem may change, 'corrupt', the individuals, altering their behaviour. See it as a blend, if ye like, between source and object whereupon another person might feel disdain for both (behaviour and problem) yet translating it as disdain for only the object.
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Valar Morghulis
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Ped
Interested In Your Brain
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: MadHamish]
#2402150 - 03/04/04 10:32 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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It is incorrect to develop disdain for an individual because of the behaviour they are exhibiting, especially if the behaviour they are exhibiting has not to do with their essential nature, and entirely to do with the misguided habit of malassociation between object and event. Identifying a person as an object of disdain because they have exhibited malassociation between object and event is by it's nature an identical malassociation.
The malassociation between object and event which has fostered our disdain is identical to the malassociation between object and event which has fostered the behaviour which we find distasteful. We cannot connect the behaviour with the person, because that is committing the same crime we are attempting to criticize.
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gnrm23
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: ]
#2402223 - 03/04/04 10:46 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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i was trying to find a joseph campbell quote where he suggests that christianity is somehow a poison meme (i assume along with the other monotheistic world religions?) but couldn't dig it up, but i did find this:
www.pureliberal.com/ThoughtsOnReligion.html
~
i dunno...
there have indeed been saints and scuondrels to come out the christian matrix, but most folks are just human (check out "mythical kings and iguanas" by dory previn for a peak at one woman's take on being a mix of angel and demon, trapped in flesh...)
~
if "we" have "the whole truth & nothing but the truth" then "they" don't; & if you ain't with us, then you're against us; & if you're against us, you're against god (since "god is on our side"); & if you're against god, then you're with satan; & if you're with satan, you're better off dead (so as not to infect others with your flavor of wrong thinking)..,
and thus: heretic hunts, great bloody schisms, holy crusades, witch burnings, and all other manner of wicked behaviour in the name of righteeousness...
(but remember, christianity inherited its version of god from judaism, as did islam; and each one (of those three) has a history of dedicating apalling atrocities to their all-loving creator...)
~
("human nature, mr. allnut, is what we are put in this world to rise above."
katherine hepburn to humphrey bogart in "the african queen")
~
~
"ahimsa
is the seashell of buddha
ahimsa
is the blood of the lamb"
~
~
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old enough to know better
not old enough to care
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: Ped]
#2402259 - 03/04/04 10:53 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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"Malassociation between object and event....." What the hell does that mean? Is the person the object and his/her behaviour the event?
Since we can have no direct knowledge of any other person's mental state, or even if they have one, and the only means by which we can know them is through their behaviour, how can there be a malassociation (I'm guessing at what THAT means)? You ARE your behaviour to the rest of the world.
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DoctorJ
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: ]
#2402433 - 03/04/04 11:32 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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WHY CHRISTIANS HATE ME:
I read books other than the bible
I listen to music that isnt necessarily "christian"
I ask questions
I interfere with their brainwashing of small children
I dont support legislation based in their moral bigotry
I point out the logical contradictions in their beliefs
I hold them to their own standards (which they rarely live up to)
I'm willing to consider other points of view besides theirs
I realize that childbirth is a chemical reaction, not a miracle
I dont believe in Hell
I'm not afraid
I dont like being told what to do, or telling others what to do
I dont vote Republican
I understand the politics surrounding the creation of the bible
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SpecialEd
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: DoctorJ]
#2402605 - 03/04/04 12:29 PM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Whoa now! Those are the kind of things you don't want to go around telling everybody.
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"Plus one upvote +1..."
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/l_l\/
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Atomisk
all forms areself awareness
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: DoctorJ]
#2402760 - 03/04/04 01:08 PM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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arent those a bit of a stereotype? im not a christin, but i know many who dont fit many/any of those descriptions, or comments. I know many annoying christians, but i also know many insightful, intelliegent, inquisitive, loving, and accepting ones, too.
many people around here, myself included, have lowered theselves to christian bashing. we should try not to judge people, period...but if we do, then lets try to do it on a personl basis.
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o house-builder! thou art seen. thou shalt build no house again. all thy rafters are broken. thy ridge-pole is shattered.
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DoctorJ
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: Atomisk]
#2402784 - 03/04/04 01:14 PM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm just talking about personal experience here. These are the reasons that Christians I have dealt with in the past have judged and disliked me. I know that doesnt hold a lot of weight, but considering that MANY others have had the same experiences...
I know that these people are not "real" christians, but they are the majority, at least in my experience.
Other than on this liberal ass bbs, I have yet to meet a christian who could tolerate my prescence for long. Not that i go out of my way to piss them off or anything... just bein myself...
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Ped
Interested In Your Brain
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: zappaisgod]
#2402786 - 03/04/04 01:14 PM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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>> Is the person the object and his/her behaviour the event?
Yes.
>> the only means by which we can know them is through their behaviour
Our observations of the behaviourisms of other individuals are subject to our own parameters of perception. Our own standards and our own means of discrimination absolutely pervade every aspect of any object of knowledge, including other persons. Because this is so, any association between the observed behaviour of an individual is merely a reflection of our own mental environment. We register only those traits for which we have notation, and we have notation only for those traits of which we have direct and personal experience. The person and the behaviour cannot be correctly associated.
Even if it were true that we are able to correctly assess others by observing their behaviour, this is still not an appropriate grounds for an aggressive criticism. If it is the first nature of someone to behave in a way that makes us uncomfortable, why should we become upset with them.? It is the first nature of fire to burn. Is it reasonable to become angry with fire when it burns us?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: Ped]
#2402843 - 03/04/04 01:26 PM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Certainly the observation cannot be separated from the observer. Baggage is always there. However, I would not say another's observed behaviour is merely a reflection of our own mental environment. To steal your own analogy, The fire burns regardless of our mood, or even whether we observe it. If we put our hand in it, the flesh will be charred.
I make no claims to correctness of assessment. Just that behaviour is all we have to go by.
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moeshroom
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: DoctorJ]
#2403561 - 03/04/04 04:33 PM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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I agree with fiend that a major reason for Christian-bashing is the dominance of Christianity in America. It is a combination of the ex-Christians who resent the faith they feel brainwashed them in their youth (a well-represented group here) and never-Christians who bash the faith simply because it is on top. The latter is just like NY Yankee-bashing and is just a healthy part of human nature.
I like what MNS said about how s/he can have faith even tho s/he disagree with certain parts. MNS's philosophy is more flexible than what is most followers of organized religion believe in. According to MNS, worshipping psychodelic mushrooms can be perfectly acceptable and healthy. It occurs to me that I really don't know much about the organized religions of the world... Are there religions that teach this tolerance as a rule (rather than teaching a general rule that may be interpreted to mean this by a certain sect)? I don't even know whether converting people is a major and inseperable part of Christianity. From experience, it appears that it is and therefore Christians believe their way is the only way. Is this anything more than a generalization?
I think DoctorJ's list is merely a list of stereotypes. I suppose it is just a rhetorical device to emphasize his negative, permanent, and life-long experience with Christians. DoctorJ, I'd like to see you respond to what MNS said. I'd guess you would not consider MNS a "true Christian" because he does not fit into the Christian mental archetype you've formed from a lifelong of judgement by Christians. If you have no problem believing MNS is a real Christian, DoctorJ, than do you believe that MNS hates you?
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CleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: Ped]
#2403746 - 03/04/04 05:35 PM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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"If it is the first nature of someone to behave in a way that makes us uncomfortable, why should we become upset with them.? It is the first nature of fire to burn. Is it reasonable to become angry with fire when it burns us?"
i needed to hear that. thanks ped. sometimes it seems that i just forget important knowledge like that...like it seeps out over time. the old saying is true...
"Learning is like a design in water,
contemplation like a design on the side of the wall,
meditation like a design in stone."
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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?
this is the purpose
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Spokesman
The HighPhilosopher
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: MadHamish]
#2403817 - 03/04/04 06:00 PM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MadHamish said:
How would ye combine the two (back then or nowadays)? That's a tough nut to crack, methinks.
Like i said, there were more logical interpretations to these scriptures that were ignored do to societies's closed mind at the time. You read the bible and imagine if those things were happening right now, how would your modern mind interpret it? How would the scientific knowledge you have help you understand what could have really happened?? Unfortunately the Church doesn't encourage this type of thinking.
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DoctorJ
Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: moeshroom]
#2403897 - 03/04/04 06:24 PM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
I think DoctorJ's list is merely a list of stereotypes.
Why? I didnt say that all christians were that way, just 99% of the ones I've met.
Quote:
DoctorJ, I'd like to see you respond to what MNS said. I'd guess you would not consider MNS a "true Christian" because he does not fit into the Christian mental archetype you've formed from a lifelong of judgement by Christians.
No, MNS seems like an OK guy. I dont know him well enough to say he's a true christian or not. By true christian, I mean someone who really follows the teachings of Christ instead of just paying them lip service while they continue to hate and judge. From what MNS said, he doesn't seem like a phony christian. But the real test is behavior. Talk is cheap.
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moeshroom
golden student
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: DoctorJ]
#2404102 - 03/04/04 07:25 PM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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I understand your point man, you're just describing your personal experience which is overwhelmingly representative of generalizations that i think some Christians want to break.
Talk IS cheap but it's all we have to go on on the internet.
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Alan Stone
Corpus
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: Spokesman]
#2407257 - 03/08/04 01:21 PM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Like i said, there were more logical interpretations to these scriptures that were ignored do to societies's closed mind at the time.
My guess would be they were ignored because of insider knowledge of the metaphors used in the Bible. Who said everything written in the Bible was literally believed by the Jews who passed the stories on vocally and in writing?
As I've said elsewhere, the miracles in the Bible are - to Jews from afore - indications, metaphors (hyperboles to be more specific) if you will, that God was involved in the event in question, NOT, repeat NOT that that's the way things happened.
Quote:
You read the bible and imagine if those things were happening right now, how would your modern mind interpret it?
I'll assume you're talking about the miracles, the rest is plain history. If this is the case, see above.
Quote:
How would the scientific knowledge you have help you understand what could have really happened?? Unfortunately the Church doesn't encourage this type of thinking.
Depends which department of the church you're talking about. The American branch recognises more exorcisms and miracles than does the European department, for instance. Do you honestly believe the church doesn't employ scientists itself?
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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
- Aristotle
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Spokesman
The HighPhilosopher
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: Alan Stone]
#2407507 - 03/08/04 02:23 PM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Im sure some do, i'm speaking in general terms thought. Im sure there are many things the chruches do wich the common Christian has no idea of. Im sure many Christian leaders hold knowledge that they do not share to the common Christian. I was raised in a pentecostal church. Wich in my experiences, they are more closed-minded (no offense) because they tought me that God has total control of the world and my life. Yet pray for me to come back. They showed me a world in wich the planet Earth was the only one in existance and that God controled the past, the present and knew the future. If a paranormal event coincides with their belief, then it's a manifestation of God. If it doesen't then it's the devil. Now, from what i was tought and my point of view i hope you can further understand what im trying to say.
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Alan Stone
Corpus
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Re: Why I hate christians [Re: Spokesman]
#2407569 - 03/08/04 02:40 PM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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I realise I may have come across as if I thought I knew the truth. It's a good guess, based on a teacher of mine, who's a priest who's studied under the current Pope and other professors in the Vatican. So that's where my Bible interpretation comes from.
I can definately see where you're coming from, the (catholic) paroch I was raised to be a part of is very conservative and on a guilt trip all the time, which is the main reason I don't call myself a Christian (although being influenced by Christianity) and I don't attend church.
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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
- Aristotle
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