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OfflineLikwidDrawp
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: fivepointer]
    #1733053 - 07/20/03 06:29 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I havent thrown all of the Christians in a "box"
I'm just saying that it is beyond most Christians actual will when they are indoctrinated at a young age... We can thank those who have imposed religion on our ancestors for that. Just a thought. Although I'm sure there are plenty of Christians that are just that by their entire choice. I have obtained my point of view from being indocrinated at a young age. Since then I have studied (near) every relgion, Arcadian tablets(which have many of the same bible stories) and lots of mythology. Taking these into consideration I have found we are all God. God is not seperate from us.

Comments?


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OfflineLikwidDrawp
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: fivepointer]
    #1733060 - 07/20/03 06:31 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I haveth writteneth in a rewritteneth book to showwth and tryeth to conveyeth to all of thou's questions in thiseth mosteth likely rewritteneth passage.


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: LikwidDrawp]
    #1733173 - 07/20/03 07:46 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LikwidDrawp said:
How could god love the world so much that he would (for no reason but for humanity) punish his own son? Well, usually I dont express my love to everyone else by beating my son with a stick and putting him through an agonizing death.





But that is what Christ came to do. He knew he would have to die for the sins of everyone. We should have been in Christ' place, but God, and Christ loved us enough to die for us. Christ is the fulfillment of Jewish scripture. But Christ didn't just die, he rose again, triumphant over death. That is the only requirement for Christianity, to believe that Christ died for you, and rose again.


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OTD UNDERDOGS

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Anonymous

Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Funguy]
    #1733383 - 07/20/03 09:33 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

i really can't understand why he dying is a big deal at all.

let me get this straight....

he is the "son" of the father, so he is guaranteed a great place in heaven. why would he really care about suffering on the cross for a couple days when he knows he will live eternally in heaven? for the rest of us poor folks, we must suffer our entire lives not knowing what will happen to us when we die.



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: fivepointer]
    #1733604 - 07/20/03 10:50 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Forget about verses like Luke 16: 19-31, or Romans 4:3 "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Your doctrine that denies salvation to any human before the appearance of Y'shua ben Miriam is a LIE. It is behind every post-Y'shua sentiment of antisemitism. Salvation is of the Jews. Y'shua was a Jew, and speaking OF Jews when it is said of Him that 'Those who aren't against us, are for us.' Very liberal, very nice. How typically Jewish!
But what would you know? With your doctrine, ALL Jews must belong to the "synagogue of Satan," except perhaps Y'shua, his Mom and Dad, and his brothers, and of course, His Apostolic friends. Remember the words, "Before Abraham was, 'I AM'"? This meant that Y'shua was identifying Himself with the Divine Name - Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh - ("I will be what I will be," usually mistranslated as "I AM THAT I AM"). God is Eternal; Y'shua was temporal; Christ is a Mystery of both conjoined, but God has always 'saved' His people - long before Y'shua was born.

I recommend that you educate a very distorted doctrine out of your mind. Your god is Moloch-like - a monster. You must be rather young and unlived in life to feel so confidently self-righteous. It sounds like Y'shua remains for you on the level of a Greek Hero, or a role model that a very young person can identify with, feeling pretty sinless yourself, since you haven't experienced much of life's passions yet. I'm tellin' ya man...if you ever begin to experience life as an adult man...it's gonna come as one serious blow to your ego.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: ]
    #1734034 - 07/21/03 02:14 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

i really can't understand why he dying is a big deal at all.




I think there were two historically important things behind this. The first is that crucifixion is an extremely painful way to die: you slowly suffocate while being in constant pain from muscle cramps. It can take several days before you lose consciousness. For Jesus it only took 6 hours on the cross before he was taken down, unconscious and probably dead.

Crucifixions were used when the Romans wanted to intimidate and scare the people, so it must have been very impressive to see someone go along with it instead of talking their way out of it, or walk away before it's too late.

The other thing is that in those days animal sacrifice was common everywhere, except in Buddhism. Today the only major religions in which animal sacrifice is a religious duty are Islam and some Hinduist sects. Two thousand years ago, it was a powerful idea to replace all animal sacrifices with one big final sacrifice where the first-born son of the supreme god was sacrificed. In a mind-set where blood sacrifice is important, this idea is arguably very impressive.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: fivepointer]
    #1734187 - 07/21/03 04:57 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1734252 - 07/21/03 05:51 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

"Let God judge and speak of judgement." Congratulations! Really! Perhaps the most divinely detached staement you have ever made here! How does it feel? I'll raise the next goblet of Merlot in toast to this one! +++Amen+++


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1734260 - 07/21/03 05:57 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1734306 - 07/21/03 06:45 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Why dedicate your life to a conformist religion, to a book that was written by MAN..... Why dedicate your life to something that can never be proven, Why not dedicate your life to helping yourself and others. Why would an omnipotent being with such benovelance condemn people to eternal damnation simply for not following/or believing in him/it?


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1734370 - 07/21/03 07:46 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Biblical or not, it's what one chooses to get behind that matters. I mean, if someone out there, for example, wants to massacre Philistines (though, I don't know where one would find Philistines, except maybe one of the block-headed literal Fundamentalists hunting down anyone named Phil or Phyllis Stine), then there is a major problem.

Jesus went about forgiving and healing. That is the task according to Jesus that brings about the Kingdom of God - in each Compassionate act. Then there are the Paulists. I hesitate to call them Pauline Christians because their faith is modelled after Paul's words primarily, and Paul had a radical misunderstanding about the Kingdom of God, because he wrongly believed that it was going to manifest historically at any moment, instead of recognizing that 'it is spread out upon the Earth, but no one recognizes it.' Well, this too is part of the New Testament - a big part - because Irenaeus and his colleagues decided what Christianity would be like. Then Constantine demanded a unified doctrine, so the Apostle's [Nicean] Creed was made up. Then, instead of being the persecuted, the so-called Christians began their own persecution and judgement. At first mere exclusions, then excommunications and exile, and finally executions. XXXX. Funny how the Latin 'X' is the Greek 'Chi,' the symbol for [Ch]rist. Today, there seems to be more heresy-hunters and judges than in the 3rd century, only today, thank God, all they can do is rant and rave, enter right wing politics, and become televangelists (who seem to have a penchant for embezzlement and young boys).

The irreverent on this forum are merely ignorant, ill-mannered louts, or are themselves the the victims of religious abuse, but, the self-righteous, power-hungry, socially inept, spiritually bereft, Scripture abusing, haters of Human-kind who appear on this sight are worse. BE GONE ! I Know you ! - Wolves in sheep's clothing.

+++ I exorcise you, Most Unclean Spirit! Invading Enemy! All Spirits!...Enemy of the faith! Enemy of the human race!...Twister of Justice!...Inciter of Jealousy! Originator of Greed! Cause of discord!...Retire, therefore, in the name of the + Father, and of the + Son, and of the Holy + Spirit...Amen +++


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: ]
    #1734850 - 07/21/03 12:20 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LoOnEr said:
i really can't understand why he dying is a big deal at all.

let me get this straight....

he is the "son" of the father, so he is guaranteed a great place in heaven. why would he really care about suffering on the cross for a couple days when he knows he will live eternally in heaven? for the rest of us poor folks, we must suffer our entire lives not knowing what will happen to us when we die.






Ah, but Hell is different from the Lake of Fire. Hell is being out of the presence of God. Everyone alive on Earth is in the presence of God, whether they believe in him or not. God is perfect, he cannot stand for sin to be near him. While Jesus was on the cross, God, his father, turned his back on him. This was because the sins of the whole world was put upon Jesus. This meant that Jesus was in Hell while on the cross. But there are also some denominations that believe that Jesus was in Hell for three days until he rose again. But this doesn't explain why he told the other man, "as of this day you will be with me in paradise." Luke 23:43


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OTD UNDERDOGS

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Funguy]
    #1735527 - 07/21/03 03:53 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Your description of the Harrowing of Hell, where the Apostle's Creed said "...He descended into Hell...," was a kind of provisional metaphysic that enabled a chance for everyone in Sheol, or Gehenna, or Hell, to hear the Word. In Reality, how could anyone know such a thing? It is an insertion for the intention of creating a doctrine.

Jesus in Hell while ON the cross is something I've never heard before. This was human pain, not Divine Wrath. The insertion of "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?," just so happens to be the first line of the 22nd Psalm. It was Jesus, in prayer, yet praying a Psalm that expressed His abandonment to human death, and more-than-likely a veiling by agony of the Comm[union] He usually experienced with God.

I should point out that 'on the third day,' wasn't anything close to 3 days - from sundown Friday night, to sunup Sunday morning, is at best 1.5 days. There are explanations, but I'll not go there.

As to the promise to the penitant thief - now Here is an important insight into Christian eschatology. Paradise (BTW, the consonants PRDS each stands for a level of spiritual Realty in Jewish mystical thought) indicates a Fully Realized Eschatology such as the one described in the Gospel of Thomas. It is different from the Partially Realized Eschatology that has wrongly been promulgated by practically all of Christendom for two millennia. This means that the Kingdom of God is an ever-present Reality, not IN history, but outside of space-time, in Eternity - and it is available Here and Now in the Eternal Present. The Kingdom did not descend from the Heavens (since spiritual and astronomical were thought to be the same in the 3-tiered cosmology of the 1st century) as Paul preached. It may never 'descend' at any time in an indeterminate future because it is Eternally Present. The life of the flesh veils our perception of it, unless we are granted a Vision of the Resurrected Christ, like Paul. The Resurrected Christ, is the Fulness [Pleroma] of the Godhead - Infinite Light - not an incandescent figure of Jesus-in-the-sky. Paul was clearly wrong and the entire scheme of the Rapture, the Transfiguration of Christians, or their Resurrection at the end of time DOES NOT mean at the end of a linear duration - at a time in the future. The End of Time is Eternity, which is ever-present, omniscient, Here and Now - as it was for Jesus and the thief.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1735592 - 07/21/03 04:10 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

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OfflineZahid
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1735694 - 07/21/03 04:34 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

st0nedphucker said:
Why dedicate your life to a conformist religion, to a book that was written by MAN..... Why dedicate your life to something that can never be proven, Why not dedicate your life to helping yourself and others. Why would an omnipotent being with such benovelance condemn people to eternal damnation simply for not following/or believing in him/it?   




Why would an omnipotent being with such benovelance condemn people to eternal damnation simply for not following/or believing in him/it?

He doesn't. People who don't believe in God, in some sense, do not need Him. That doesn't change the tide of the reality of all things, though. God created people to choose Him on their own terms - but why would anyone worship God?  :heart:

 


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OfflineLikwidDrawp
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: Zahid]
    #1736060 - 07/21/03 06:32 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Regardless of what anyone thinks... None of us know the actual truth, if any of us knew truth we wouldnt be debating it. Wouldnt we all like to think that we do know the truth? I have yet to make any conclusion about anything, as everything changes, especially with an open mind. But god being a seperate entity from mankind/nature still sounds rediculous to me.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: World Spirit]
    #1736165 - 07/21/03 07:24 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enter said:
I did not truly begin to experience God until December of 1996, when a 'season of visitation set in.' I have always been convinced of the existence of God, and I've been someone who prays to God (sometimes frequently, other times quite sporadically).




This is subjective truth. I am not going to get into all of this in THIS thread; however, check out Please tell me there are others like me.. for that whole argument (made mostly by Swami).

I myself, seem to agree with what Markos has been saying, what he says seems to make sense to MY thought collection. My credits to you, Markos.
Peace.


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: To the Christians; From Enter [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1736198 - 07/21/03 07:37 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Your description of the Harrowing of Hell, where the Apostle's Creed said "...He descended into Hell...," was a kind of provisional metaphysic that enabled a chance for everyone in Sheol, or Gehenna, or Hell, to hear the Word. In Reality, how could anyone know such a thing? It is an insertion for the intention of creating a doctrine.

Jesus in Hell while ON the cross is something I've never heard before. This was human pain, not Divine Wrath. The insertion of "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?," just so happens to be the first line of the 22nd Psalm. It was Jesus, in prayer, yet praying a Psalm that expressed His abandonment to human death, and more-than-likely a veiling by agony of the Comm[union] He usually experienced with God.

I should point out that 'on the third day,' wasn't anything close to 3 days - from sundown Friday night, to sunup Sunday morning, is at best 1.5 days. There are explanations, but I'll not go there.

As to the promise to the penitant thief - now Here is an important insight into Christian eschatology. Paradise (BTW, the consonants PRDS each stands for a level of spiritual Realty in Jewish mystical thought) indicates a Fully Realized Eschatology such as the one described in the Gospel of Thomas. It is different from the Partially Realized Eschatology that has wrongly been promulgated by practically all of Christendom for two millennia. This means that the Kingdom of God is an ever-present Reality, not IN history, but outside of space-time, in Eternity - and it is available Here and Now in the Eternal Present. The Kingdom did not descend from the Heavens (since spiritual and astronomical were thought to be the same in the 3-tiered cosmology of the 1st century) as Paul preached. It may never 'descend' at any time in an indeterminate future because it is Eternally Present. The life of the flesh veils our perception of it, unless we are granted a Vision of the Resurrected Christ, like Paul. The Resurrected Christ, is the Fulness [Pleroma] of the Godhead - Infinite Light - not an incandescent figure of Jesus-in-the-sky.  Paul was clearly wrong and the entire scheme of the Rapture, the Transfiguration of Christians, or their Resurrection at the end of time DOES NOT mean at the end of a linear duration - at a time in the future. The End of Time is Eternity, which is ever-present, omniscient, Here and Now - as it was for Jesus and the thief. 




Ah, but back in old Jewish times just half a day was considered a whole day.  But then again, why did Jesus resurrect himself after only "three" days, why not the day after his death?  The old Jewish belief is that after the body dies, the spirit remains around the dead person for three days.  That is why Jesus was resurrected after "three" days. 
Normally the crucified are allowed to live for days, suffering a cruel humiliating death (they were naked, not covered with cloth).  However, when Jesus was crucified, the next day was the Special Sabbath, so the "criminals" could not be allowed to hang there.  The two prisoners beside Jesus had their legs broken, so they would suffocate.  But when they went to break Jesus' legs, he was already dead, so they didn't.  Markos, I love reading your posts, and I should start doing more research to back up what I say.  Sadly, I am just a poor college guy spending most of my time studying.  :grin:


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OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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