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Re: the illusion of imagination [Re: figmentfragment]
    #8276971 -

An argument doesn't necessarily refers to a fight, it can be a discussion in which two (or more) different perspectives are being presented, questioned and explained.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: the illusion of imagination [Re: thedudenj]
    #8276991 -

yes. I suspected you would take this route.

But now this is really pointless, and completely off topic.

Excuse my apparent flogging the dead horse with my statement about the existence of reality, in relation to the absence of the observer...

"Imagination is the ability to form mental images, or the ability to spontaneously generate images within one's own mind. It helps provide meaning to experience and understanding to knowledge; it is a fundamental facility through which people make sense of the world,"

I would go further to say; reality is a word, and a concept. It was imagined, and then put into vocabulary.

I think people do not take the impact of their "imaginations" on "reality" seriously enough.


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Goodbye Shroomery.

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Re: the illusion of imagination [Re: figmentfragment]
    #8277014 -

Not only the word "reality" is imagined, you can say the same thing about every word, including "imagination". This doesn't mean that they are all the same. We need words in order to classify and be able to discern, and we need to agree upon the meaning of the words in order to avoid confusion.
It is true that "Imagination is the ability to form mental images, or the ability to spontaneously generate images within one's own mind..." but these images are the result of reality. If we weren't able to perceive and experience reality, there would be no images stocked in our mind, therefore no imagination. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: the illusion of imagination [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8277045 -

:confused: yes...I have just been thinking this myself.

No matter what our individual perception, there must be some basic model to work from...

Yet how can we tell what truly is, outside of our imaginations? I guess it is flogging the dead horse again...


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Goodbye Shroomery.

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Re: the illusion of imagination [Re: figmentfragment]
    #8277200 -

i'm imagining a blunt or two, 2 bitches, and riding to the beach right now. 2 honeyus rubbing their titties on each other, shit, fuck, lets start a naked bank robbing moped mask wearing association

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Re: the illusion of imagination [Re: johansojack]
    #8277260 -

I saw that Language was based off the universal pluses of the planes tho? Things like that. We find convergent evolution in languages,what molded most languages linguists take as diet,which changes the teeth and jaw formations. But any who to make any word our vocal chords were already able to make em, all we are doing is using things we already got... and thats the base of my argument. Some said to me the other day that we are just a bunch of urges lol. So whats not to say we dont have urge to make these words same way we have the urge to kill animals. inventing a better weapon comes from observation of animals,their patterns,then things in the environment that can be used.

"i'm imagining a blunt or two, 2 bitches, and riding to the beach right now. 2 honeyus rubbing their titties on each other, shit, fuck, lets start a naked bank robbing moped mask wearing association"
piecing together images and ideas based on this persons psyche.


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"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

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Re: the illusion of imagination [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8283419 -

MushroomTrip said:
You statement can be translated into something like: reality can't exist without us. Which would mean that we are reality itself, in its wholeness, and this is not true.
What IS true is that we are a part, a component of reality, but this doesn't mean that it will stop existing if we do. :shrug:


Actually, how can you prove this? 

Let's assume, for a moment, that earth is the only planet with life on it. (A poor assumption, IMO.... but let us imagine it for a moment...)

Let us say that there is some horrid plague, a virus capable of destroying any living thing, and all plant and animal life on earth is destroyed, single-celled organisms, everything. Then the virus itself dies.

All life is gone. Is there a world left? A universe? Who is there to say that "reality" has not ceased to exist?

Now let us pretend that this has already happened, in an "alternate universe."  Here we are, still alive, but in another dimension all life has been eliminated.

Let us say, that we can rip a hole in the fabric between dimensions, and send a video camera into the other (assuming that there is still an "other.")

We bring the camera back, and we see an empty world.  But now, from our position outside of this "empty universe" we have become conscious observers of that universe. And we still can't say whether it exists without us (save for the messy matter of ripping a hole into a place that doesn't exist... or does that rip constitute an act of observation?

What I'm saying is, what about the observer effect? Extrapolations based on ideas like superposition... Is Schrödinger's cat alive, or dead?

For all you know, and can prove, we ARE holding reality in existence, by the mere fact of our conscious observation of it.


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I am me. We are You.

Edited by CidneyIndole (04/14/08 06:27 PM)

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Re: the illusion of imagination [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8283486 -

MushroomTrip said:
If we weren't able to perceive and experience reality, there would be no images stocked in our mind, therefore no imagination. :shrug:



I do get what you're saying here. And you have a very valid point. But...

We are used to thinking in a certain way. Our thoughts tend to come primarily in the form of images and words... these images come from our perception of reality.  These words are concepts that we as conscious beings agree upon...concepts we pick up through our novel means of "precise" communication.

That paragraph is more or less a paraphrase of your idea. However, there are a couple points we have to consider based on this:

1- The images that we see in "reality" are our perception of what the "objective" world is like. But we have to pass "reality" through our perceptive filter in order to experience it in ANY way.

2- Additionally, even what our words mean to us (individually), our concepts, are a complex result of agreed upon meaning, plus inference and other connotations that are a result of experience.

Now what if... we had no external "senses"... no way to perceive an exterior reality?  We do not see, hear, smell, taste, feel...nothing. Let us say that we have been this way our entire lives.

What is our imagination like now?  Do we imagine "nothingness" and nothing more, simply because we have never perceived a thing?

Maybe... I can't know.  I do suspect, however, that we would still have thought and imagination... just of a sort that would be completely alien to our minds as they are now.


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I am me. We are You.

Edited by CidneyIndole (04/14/08 06:42 PM)

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Re: the illusion of imagination [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #8283599 -

dimensions

a (1): measure in one direction; specifically : one of three coordinates determining a position in space or four coordinates determining a position in space and time (2): one of a group of properties whose number is necessary and sufficient to determine uniquely each element of a system of usually mathematical entities (as an aggregate of points in real or abstract space) <the surface of a sphere has two dimensions>; also : a parameter or coordinate variable assigned to such a property <the three dimensions of momentum> (3): the number of elements in a basis of a vector space b: the quality of spatial extension : magnitude, size c: a lifelike or realistic quality d: the range over which or the degree to which something extends : scope —usually used in plural e: one of the elements or factors making up a complete personality or entity : aspect
2obsolete : bodily form or proportions
3: any of the fundamental units (as of mass, length, or time) on which a derived unit is based; also : the power of such a unit
4: wood or stone cut to pieces of specified size
5: a level of existence or consciousness


why would we need a camera or even really care ? we most likely were already aware of that destruction


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

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Re: the illusion of imagination [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #8285735 -

These assumptions mean nothing; everything is possible in Imaginationland, but I don't see what it has to do with what I was talking about.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the illusion of imagination [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8286473 -

MushroomTrip said:
These assumptions mean nothing; everything is possible in Imaginationland, but I don't see what it has to do with what I was talking about.


Well... first you very matter-of-factly stated that we (conscious beings) do not create reality, and that "reality" can (and does) exist without us.

The purpose of my first post was to state that you are putting forth a VERY unprovable hypothesis, based on conventional thinking.

I think it's dumb to make such exclusive statements.

My ideas are mostly as unprovable (presently) as yours. But the notion of the "observer effect" (look it up, if you're not familiar) does state that the observer effects "reality" by the act of observation.

I could also point to something like quantum superposition, but if you were a quantum physicist, you might try to argue with me that this is a quantum effect, and may not apply to the macro world. (And to that, I could find others who could disagree with you more intelligently than I.)

In that second post, you had stated that
Quote:
If we weren't able to perceive and experience reality, there would be no images stocked in our mind, therefore no imagination


And I was merely pointing out that while our idea of "imagination" IS very visually and linguistically based, that our having experienced an external "reality" is not a prerequisite for this ability.


As far as I can see... I was precisely addressing points made in your posts. You don't see how this relates?


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I am me. We are You.

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