Home | Community | Message Board

Out-Grow.com - Mushroom Growing Kits & Supplies
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Myyco.com APE Liquid Culture For Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6  [ show all ]
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
God Exists
    #582482 - 03/18/02 03:29 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

God Exists: Here?s why

There is an Almighty, All knowing, Merciful God, like it or not, believe it or not. Most atheists will never change their beliefs. Anyone should be able to use reason in such an introverted way that they see and realize the truth of things. Atheists believe in what can be proven. Obviously, there is no scientific proof that there is a God, or that there isn?t a God. If there was proof, this life wouldn?t be much of a test to earn Paradise. Why does God exist?

- Try to think of every aspect of today?s world: the human race on planet earth. What humans are, how we are, our self-awareness, and our ability to do either right or wrong. The circumstances of life are 100% perfect how an All Knowing God would test you, to see if you?ll believe or not. If (non-existing) technology recorded the creation of earth and mankind, and displayed throughout history for man to view, there would be less of a test to submit to the Creator. If God directly spoke to mankind, there would be less of a test. In fact, for a long time there would be no test: everyone would know there is a God that simply longs for your love and praise for He created you.

- The existence of the three abrahamic faiths: Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. All share very similar characteristics and teachings because the prophecies came from the same God. The births of these religions occurred centuries apart.

- The earth, the universe, everything that is here, is all part of an illusion created by God ultimately for the test. Think of space being inside a balloon. Inside that balloon is a tiny planet with God?s greatest creation, humankind. The one holding the balloon in his hand is God.

- For a moment, free your mind of any anti religious feelings you have developed as a result of your environment upbringing (religion is for the weak, religion was created by man for control, religion blocks reason, etc.) for these feelings lead to disillusionment from your God, your Lord. Now, pretend you?re living during the time of one of the prophets: Moses, Jesus, Abraham, Muhammad, or whoever. You?re witnessing Jesus do miracles, the honest man from Mecca you knew all your life is shouting things about the one and only true God worthy of worship. Many atheists will argue that organized religion is simply a ?successful? cult because thousands of years ago people easily bought it. Why are there billions of Muslims and Christians today then?

- Most people do believe in God, but deceive themselves in order to do what they want guilt free. I have two non religious friends who also like to trip. I asked them if they would ever watch a movie about the life and times of Jesus Christ. They said they wouldn?t want that ?make believe? stuff setting into their head. Truth is, and according to the Qur?an, those who truly do not believe in their hearts that God is real has a spiritual sickness brought on by free will- The hard core atheists of today will never find salvation, despite how easily it is to obtain it. If a true kufr took LSD and watched the 1965 movie ?The Greatest Story Ever Told?, he would still stand in his beliefs, and not feel uneasy about the movie. If the person denounced previous belief in nothing, and converted to Christianity as a result of this experience, he in fact did believe in God all his life, only deceived himself from seeing it in striking clarity.

- For many of us, it takes a generous dose of psychedelics to get to know ourselves better. But, Something, somewhere has to know the secrets of our hearts that we are not even aware of ourselves.

- Can you seriously imagine this world being created by it self?

- More people than you would think believe in God in this world. Atheism is very common in the west because there is a lot of disillusionment with Christianity brought on by an immoral society and combined with the contradictions of today?s distorted gospel.

- For those who know only the teachings of Christianity, you should know that God?s final message to the world delivered by Muhammad, shows support evolution, dinosaurs, and other aspects of our history that militant atheists often like to throw at Christians.

- Humans originated in the Middle East, and began to spread out over time, creating different races from environmental factors, and different cultures and languages. This is how Muhammad explained it too.

- Space is constantly expanding. Supported in Islam. Think of the universe as being a balloon. The edge of the balloon being the edge of space. What?s at the other end of the balloon? We can?t comprehend it, because we can hardly comprehend God. All we know is that he loves us more than we can even know. We know he loves to forgive sinners in this life.

- God is so beyond human comprehension that all we can handle is a written word passed down from a messenger. You can put a donkey in a room with a computer for 20 years, it doesn?t mean he?ll understand the how it works and operates.

- Physics and science. Supported in Islam.

- Evolution. Supported in Islam.

- Belief doesn?t cancel out reason. I believe in my heart that the earth is round the same way I believe in my heart that God, Redemption, Heaven, Hell are all part of the big picture: The truth. Since this is the truth, anyone who believes uses reason everyday. Anyone who believes has experienced God throughout their lives, and know the truth of his existence.

- The world around you is yours to dwell in. There are pleasures, intense, embarrassing, destructive, that will bring about temptation among many people.

- Many who chose not to believe in God do it out of disagreement with some of it. They do not agree with the idea of eternal torment for not believing, or that they cannot have sex with members of the same gender, so they refuse to open their hearts to the truth.

In conclusion, if you don?t believe in your heart after reading this, you probably never will and it?s your own fault for creating that burden. Remember these two things: If you don?t believe in the big picture, it?s because you don?t agree with it. It?s your duty to put your Creator in front of everything else, including yourself. The highway to Hell is wide and fast, the stairway to Heaven is steep and narrow.

If you're afraid you might believe, go to http://www.it-is-truth.org


--------------------

Edited by Zahid (03/18/02 03:32 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDroz
Love of Life
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/15/00
Posts: 2,746
Loc: Floorida
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582493 - 03/18/02 03:42 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

no you are wrong
and i am wrong too
you are no more right then i am


--------------------
Evolution of Time.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582513 - 03/18/02 04:01 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

In conclusion, if you don?t believe in your heart after reading this, you probably never will and it?s your own fault for creating that burden.

Wow! There is a most amazing display of spiritual arrogance. Zahid has spoken; therefore I MUST believe.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Swami]
    #582524 - 03/18/02 04:13 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Who cares if it was me who made that post. It's the message in the topic you should think about, not if I'm "spiritually arrogant". You're missing the point, Swami.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582525 - 03/18/02 04:13 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

yep... there is a god... but i dont agree with you saying he created all this as a test... to EARN paradise... if there really was something we could do in order to cast ourselves apart from him for the rest of eternity, then he wouldnt be mercyful... nor loving...
there is no right or wrong... only what we "judge" as right or wrong... and remember we weren?t created to judge... judgement itself is an illusion, too... therefore god wouldnt judge us either... indeed he wont...
oh! and you completely forgot about the fourth central religion... buddhism... bud god ain?t about religion... whether you call him christ, muhammed, buddha or whatever, they all were in thouch with the same source... the central energy, creation, beeing... GOD

namaste


--------------------

Edited by Lozt Soul (03/18/02 04:19 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: God Exists [Re: In(di)go]
    #582529 - 03/18/02 04:17 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

That's sort of a personal belief of God you have, I guess. Yes there's God, and he would have to punish the wicked, and in order to do that, he would have to offer salvation to the righteous, and to bring that message prophets are needed. The abrahamic faiths are real.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582538 - 03/18/02 04:26 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

if you were god would you do the same? i mean do you also really approve it and like it like that, or do you just accept it because it is the truth?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582546 - 03/18/02 04:31 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

every belief is personal... but every belief can achieve global changes... i think all faiths are real... as long as you have faith...
and no, god would never punish anyone... for the wicked are already punishing themselves... and the righteous are rewarding themselves... i just dont believe in a god who claims to love you, but as soon as you make a mistake he waits for you with a whiplash... "do it, or ill fucking spank you" nope... thats not the way it goes...


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: God Exists [Re: raytrace]
    #582551 - 03/18/02 04:34 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I'm only a human, raytrace. God is beyond personal opinions of how things should be done. Everything is in his will, everything is known by Him. I cannot tell you "If I was God" because Allah (swt) has no partners. He is one, the All knowing, Compassionate, the Lord. God's plan, like it or not, is the ultimate truth. Accept it, or suffer in the hereafter. If God allowed man to indulge in earthly pleasures all they want, then man would do so without guilt. But God doesn't.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: God Exists [Re: In(di)go]
    #582554 - 03/18/02 04:38 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Lozt Soul: What about Hitler and Albert Fish? My belief isn't personal like yours, or my friend Sean (who believes using his gift of art will get him into Paradise), my belief is from the Qur'an, the word of God himself.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582558 - 03/18/02 04:41 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

i assume from what you said that you don't agree with all your heart but you have no choice

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582562 - 03/18/02 04:48 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

God is an illusion created in the minds of humans, in the image of humans.

Most Gods have the manners and temperment of a spoiled child.

I believe in the holy trinity of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.
I can find more proof that any of the above three exist than all your abrahamic
religions combined.

By the way, the abrahamic religions are the source of some of the greatest
hate and human misery ever visited upon mankind.

Edited by evolving (03/18/02 04:49 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582575 - 03/18/02 05:07 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

hitler and albert fish... well they are both in heaven... yup... they learned they fair share from what they did, but it was necesarry... and i, too believe that if your friend uses the gift of art he will get to paradise... indeed, if he does it right he is already in paradise... read my signature if you have the time, and the open mind... and i also think that gods word comes from within, not from without... as with love, happyness, joy and peace... they are all found within, for that is where god lies... not outside or "up there"... i have read the bible, the book mormon, and parts of the qur?an... and yes, they contain wisdom and truth... but i think it has been so mermed and twisted around by the people in every church in order to meet their needs for power, that it requiers great inner wisdom to meet god following those words... that is my humble opinion... and i share it with you... but i dont try to push it on anyone...


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582646 - 03/18/02 06:20 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Yes there's God, and he would have to punish the wicked...

Yes, a perfect God would create an imperfect being.

Yes, an all-loving, all-merciful God, would be less than loving and merciful.

Makes sense to me.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582651 - 03/18/02 06:25 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Most atheists will never change their beliefs.

And you have done a large-scale study on this? I highly doubt it. Please only speak of what you know instead using hyperbole. Rigidity is the bane of many people, whether religious or not.

I used to be religious when I was a young brain-washed child, then I changed my belief, or more accurately, abandoned it.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582655 - 03/18/02 06:29 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

The existence of the three abrahamic faiths: Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. All share very similar characteristics and teachings because the prophecies came from the same God.

The similarities exist because they sprang from similar cultures in the same general geographic region not because of any underlying truth.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582663 - 03/18/02 06:37 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

They do not agree with the idea of eternal torment for not believing, or that they cannot have sex with members of the same gender,

Those poor hermaphrodites, born with both male and female sex organs, created by God, will burn forever if they choose a physical relationship with either sex. Quite a test!


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582669 - 03/18/02 06:45 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

It was a quiet, peaceful day when....

"Shit, what's that on the radar?!"

"INCOMING BULLSHIT!"
"Everybody, under your desks!"


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineskaMariaPastora
Utopiate
Registered: 03/14/01
Posts: 443
Loc: MA
Last seen: 21 years, 1 month
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582680 - 03/18/02 06:59 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I think people should find God by looking within, not by reading a book written by ordinary men thousands of years ago. God (whatever he/she/it may be) exists within all of us if we just care to look. Defining oneself by a rigid set of rules that is religion has more to do with the power and greed of men than with getting closer to God. Discover your own relationship with God, don't blindly follow someone else's.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: God Exists [Re: Sclorch]
    #582693 - 03/18/02 07:13 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Sclorch, sclorch, sclorch, are you rtying to usurp me as head troublemaker?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: God Exists [Re: Sclorch]
    #582695 - 03/18/02 07:14 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Sclorch, Sclorch, Sclorch, are you trying to usurp my position as head troublemaker?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSoulTech
Automated
Registered: 02/27/02
Posts: 86
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582698 - 03/18/02 07:20 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

>>The circumstances of life are 100% perfect how an All Knowing God would >>test you, to see if you?ll believe or not

If God was "All knowing" would he need a "test" to see if people believe or not, or would he already know.

>>God?s greatest creation, humankind.
What makes you think we are the "greatest creation". Remember, humanity had a hell of a hard time accepting that their earth wasn't the center of the solar system and for that matter the universe. Is there a pattern here?

Peace

"We are by no means living in a society that condones innovation and advances on the mass scale, except where its convenient for those individuals and interests that are already in power."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: God Exists [Re: SoulTech]
    #582706 - 03/18/02 07:28 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

If God was "All knowing" would he need a "test" to see if people believe or not, or would he already know.

Please do not use logic or reason (two God-created gifts to mankind) in a religious discussion.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinecHeMiCaLoRaNgE
journeyman
Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 51
Loc: Saskatoon, SK., Canada
Last seen: 22 years, 1 month
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582759 - 03/18/02 08:50 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

we all know god exsists, just stop analyzing and chill out. I just left a phaze in my life where i tried to analyze every thing that came along ( objects, people, god, spirituality etc. ) when i already knew the answers, stop looking for what you already know exsists, this is how you will grow. that is not to say that i will not try to expand my knowledge of myself, my beliefs and the universe, i just wont fret about it anymore. if you stop expanding your knowledge, hence you will stop growth in these areas.


--------------------
<+> wOrLd PhIlOsOpHy CaN OnLy bE UnDeRsToOd ThRoUgH aStRaL aWaKeNiNg<+>

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Swami]
    #582762 - 03/18/02 08:58 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Swami, you refuse to believe because a) religion doesn't fit "your agenda", and b) you disagree with organized religion. The Abrahamic faiths are obvious clues of the hereafter. They take place not only centuries apart, but thousands of years. Judaism and Christianity originated in what is now modern day Israel. Islam originated in what is now Saudi Arabia, with Palestine being the second holy land of al-Islam. The Abrahamic faiths are prophecies from the Lord. You're looking for anything to feed your disbelief, even if it means blocking out reason by completely ignoring everything I wrote in the topic post.

Question: If God is All Knowing, why would he have a test if he knows our future?

Answer: God gave man the freedome of choice. We do whatever we want on this earth, basically. God created it for us as part of the illusion. We can either live moral lives dedicated to the Lord, or we can dwell the world and derive earthly pleasures from it. Either way we go in life, God will know our future because he knows the Past, Present, and Future all at once.

Swami, are you going to die in disbelief? Dying in this physical/illusion world rejecting the revelations of the Abrahamic faiths? If you want to take the risk, it's your soul.


--------------------

Edited by Zahid (03/18/02 09:04 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDroz
Love of Life
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/15/00
Posts: 2,746
Loc: Floorida
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582793 - 03/18/02 09:37 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

The Abrahamic faiths are obvious clues of the hereafter.
The Abrahamic faiths are prophecies from the Lord.
Crap.

You have let yourself be brainwashed from some old book writing by just another person. Why do we need to believe or have faith in this god crap to live our lives well. There is no right and wrong way. Enough said.


--------------------
Evolution of Time.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Droz]
    #582799 - 03/18/02 09:43 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Your opinion is your demise when you're comparing it to the three ancient religions that call to worship the one God. The messages of Allaah. You'll see though. Everyone does.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDroz
Love of Life
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/15/00
Posts: 2,746
Loc: Floorida
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582802 - 03/18/02 09:52 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

You have been brainwashed by one of these so called ancient religions. Completely.


--------------------
Evolution of Time.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineholyworrier
Stranger
Registered: 03/11/02
Posts: 7
Loc: near NYC
Last seen: 22 years, 1 month
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582835 - 03/18/02 10:44 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

- Try to think of every aspect of today?s world: the human race on planet earth. What humans are, how we are, our self-awareness, and our ability to do either right or wrong. The circumstances of life are 100% perfect how an All Knowing God would test you, to see if you?ll believe or not. If (non-existing) technology recorded the creation of earth and mankind, and displayed throughout history for man to view, there would be less of a test to submit to the Creator. If God directly spoke to mankind, there would be less of a test. In fact, for a long time there would be no test: everyone would know there is a God that simply longs for your love and praise for He created you.




If God it all-knowing, why does he employ tests to see who loves him? This is absurd.

Why would God create human life knowing that a large percentage his creation would fail His test and be consigned to eternal torment? This is a horribly sadistic concept.

Why would God, having created humankind, demand their praise? Do you want praise from your lessers, or from your betters? Classic egomania.

This whole "God(s)" thing, as it arose with early Homo Sapiens, or perhaps before, has been coopted for use as a control mechanism for the power hungry, and remains so deployed today.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582886 - 03/18/02 11:44 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Swami, you refuse to believe because a) religion doesn't fit "your agenda", and b) you disagree with organized religion.
b) + c) where you stated in your original post that there is no proof whatsoever. That is a pretty strong reason to not believe in something. Would you buy a longevity serum without proof? Maybe, but I certainly would not.

Judaism and Christianity originated in what is now modern day Israel. Islam originated in what is now Saudi Arabia, with Palestine being the second holy land of al-Islam.
As I said they are somewhat in agreement because they originate from the same cultural roots.


Question: If God is All Knowing, why would he have a test if he knows our future?
Answer: God gave man the freedome of choice.
How many people raised in one religion are "free" to change? Enculturation is a powerful force. Did you know that abused children are way more likely to abuse their own children? That doesn't sound like free choice.

So according to Zahid, I was created in a certain environment, with a certain religious upbringing, and an inborn curiosity and questioning mind that won't allow me to accept ancient myths. God knew this ahead of time and will punish me for the way and the circumstances in which he created me. Sounds pretty cruel to me.


mi, are you going to die in disbelief? Dying in this physical/illusion world rejecting the revelations of the Abrahamic faiths? If you want to take the risk, it's your soul.
So all I have to do is believe? I can kill my brothers, commit adultery and steal from work, but if I pray at night then everything is cool?

Did you know that there is NO DIFFERENCE in the rates of divorce, suicide, child abuse, alcoholism, etc. etc between atheists and religious people? (See Swami's second quote!)

MORE importantly, no atheist has ever killed in the name of God, unlike your blood-thirsty Abrahamic brethren.

Then we come to Swami's all-important rule of internal consistency. Are the Abrahamic religions internally consistent? Not even close. I could write 100 pages on that.




--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSoulTech
Automated
Registered: 02/27/02
Posts: 86
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582957 - 03/19/02 01:22 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think god can be fully represented in any idea or anything for that matter. I also don't really want to discredit anyones opinions on the matter because I don't feel there is a wrong answer. Who's to say that my ideas are any better than the next man's or vice versa.

I think of it as any means we have to conceptualize god are based on the properties of our existance (how can it be otherwise), which severly limit us if you think about it. How can you conceptualize something unconceptualizable. For example: Someone says, "God's intentions are to have a test so he can judge who believes and who doesn't believe in him." I think, "Thats personifying god to think like we as humans think which to me is silly." Does god think? Does god have intentions? Does god judge? These are all principles of our existance. To give an example of god in our terms of existance, I'll use the example Zahid used with the universe being a balloon and god being on the other side of the balloon. If the balloon was filled with water and we existed as tiny molecules of water in this balloon then water is all we have known and all we could possibly know (without taking into account the sides of the balloon being of a different material). If god was on the other side of the balloon we would only conceptualize him in our terms of water because there is no other way we could know any different. Another example might be a person who is born blind trying to describe colors in terms of their visual properties. Think of these primitive models in an infinitely larger and infinitely more complex scale applied to our existance.

I have a feeling im not getting my idea across too well but I'm not sure how else to explain it (damn our medium of communication). Maybe this metaphore will help a little: If you could only move in one of six directions at any given time (up, down, left, right, forward, backward) god would be the seventh direction.

Im apologizing in advance if this does not make any sense whatsoever. I might just be venting a little bit. I was in a sad/urgent mood tonight and writing this post made me feel a little better. This is just my opinion and you can take it as you like.
And btw my opinions on the matter change very frequently.

Peace

"We are by no means living in a society that condones innovation and advances on the mass scale, except where its convinient for those individuals and interests that are already in power."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582973 - 03/19/02 01:38 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

God gave man the freedome of choice. We do whatever we want on this earth, basically. God created it for us as part of the illusion. We can either live moral lives dedicated to the Lord, or we can dwell the world and derive earthly pleasures from it



yeah... i believe in free choice... but its not really a FREE choice if you believe that when you choose to live the earthly pleasures you know youll burn in the lake of fire FOREVER, is it?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator

Registered: 07/09/99
Posts: 6,487
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #582986 - 03/19/02 02:05 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Hmmm what about those who aren't even there to take the test? like some African tribes who are still amazed by mirrors living in the middle of nowhere.


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #583087 - 03/19/02 06:15 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

yeah, maybe that's what i'm gonna do with my children too... i will prepare a test for them and if they fail i will torture them for ever... out of love...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedamilio
Stranger
Registered: 03/19/02
Posts: 4
Loc: Amsterdam
Last seen: 21 years, 7 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Droz]
    #583089 - 03/19/02 06:17 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

We ARE god.


--------------------
Something without hart in it, cannot touch a hart.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNextGenHippie
enthusiast
Registered: 03/30/01
Posts: 311
Loc: MD, USA
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: God Exists [Re: damilio]
    #583103 - 03/19/02 06:38 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Once again, someone says exactly what I was going to, now I don't have to.


--------------------
[pot]Think left and think right[pot]
[pot]and think low and think high[pot]
[pot]Oh, the thinks you can think up if only you try[pot]
-Dr. Seuss

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFliquid
Back from being gone.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/18/02
Posts: 6,953
Loc: omotive
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: God Exists [Re: NextGenHippie]
    #583125 - 03/19/02 07:27 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Indeed god is


--------------------
:dancing: My latest music! :yesnod:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: God Exists [Re: Fliquid]
    #583149 - 03/19/02 08:22 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Is this the part where we all flic our Bic lighters and do the wave in unison while singing"We are the World"?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFliquid
Back from being gone.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/18/02
Posts: 6,953
Loc: omotive
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Swami]
    #583155 - 03/19/02 08:37 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

No. Funny, bunny.

We are the universe, we are god, we are what we think we are.
So this would mean, i think i am rich so i am. NOT!
People and things excist from energie, energie attracts and pushes away. It also influences energie from other people. So, if you think you are rich, but other people don't think so. You will not be rich.

We all influence each other. Thats why monks who live in far away places have more peace of mind. They are not influenced by outside forces.

This is my short description of why I believe we are god.

And if you don't LIKE IT!!!







Tell me your version ;-)

P.s.

I really believe in this.


--------------------
:dancing: My latest music! :yesnod:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: God Exists [Re: Swami]
    #583230 - 03/19/02 10:30 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)


chik chik
"Ahem... We are the wor..."


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblevkk_
DNA Timebomb

Registered: 02/03/02
Posts: 1,289
Loc: Planet Erf, Yo.
Re: God Exists [Re: Sclorch]
    #583247 - 03/19/02 10:43 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

People should stop talking about thier imaginary friends and trying to convince others that they are real.

I'm sick of the G-O-D word, we are not God, nothing is God, noone is God.

We are animals. We want to feel like more than animals.


--------------------
I remember, the first time, I... smoked DMT.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: God Exists [Re: vkk_]
    #583302 - 03/19/02 11:34 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I hate that when my skigg regigs. How can one prevent that annoyance from occuring?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblevkk_
DNA Timebomb

Registered: 02/03/02
Posts: 1,289
Loc: Planet Erf, Yo.
Re: God Exists [Re: Swami]
    #583577 - 03/19/02 05:18 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

By visiting this link----------->#


--------------------
I remember, the first time, I... smoked DMT.

Edited by vkk_ (03/19/02 05:19 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFliquid
Back from being gone.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/18/02
Posts: 6,953
Loc: omotive
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: God Exists [Re: vkk_]
    #584115 - 03/20/02 09:52 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

"People should stop talking about thier imaginary friends and trying to convince others that they are real.

I'm sick of the G-O-D word, we are not God, nothing is God, noone is God.

We are animals. We want to feel like more than animals.

K- vkk"

But, if we are animals (and we are) then we also should not say we are anything because then you would also be catagorising. Same as some people call something unexplainable, god. Then we are not human, and animals are not animals. People (like me) say we are god, because we mean the unknown/known mind powers are what makes as in catagory way god. You could say we are all shit, because shit is the unexplainable word. Relax GOD is just a word that catagorisis various meanings. Stop the catagorising and start excepting the unexplainable.


--------------------
:dancing: My latest music! :yesnod:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblevkk_
DNA Timebomb

Registered: 02/03/02
Posts: 1,289
Loc: Planet Erf, Yo.
Re: God Exists [Re: Fliquid]
    #584144 - 03/20/02 10:27 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

"People (like me) say we are god, because we mean the unknown/known mind powers are what makes as in catagory way god. You could say we are all shit, because shit is the unexplainable word. Relax GOD is just a word that catagorisis various meanings. "

Please elaborate so I can understand what you mean.


--------------------
I remember, the first time, I... smoked DMT.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
enthusiast
Registered: 07/15/01
Posts: 200
Last seen: 22 years, 3 days
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #584481 - 03/20/02 05:19 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

There is an Almighty, All knowing, Merciful God, like it or not, believe it or not. Most atheists will never change their beliefs. Anyone should be able to use reason in such an introverted way that they see and realize the truth of things. Atheists believe in what can be proven. Obviously, there is no scientific proof that there is a God, or that there isn?t a God. If there was proof, this life wouldn?t be much of a test to earn Paradise. Why does God exist?


- The existence of the three abrahamic faiths: Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. All share very similar characteristics and teachings because the prophecies came from the same God. The births of these religions occurred centuries apart.


God exist because of the *books*. We can go back and erased or rewrite such histories, and we wouldn't be having this conversation, hypothetically speaking. An existence of GOD means little if you haven't heard of it before. And Your brand of "free choice" morality is quite creepy. Since there many passed-on cultures that are non-God based religions, your morality doesn't fit the criteria.

And so what if the "three" existed? It has no correlation to the all Eastern systems. Some of the kabbalah systems do have relevancy. If you're going to assert the "Totality", you should try to explain the similarities with the East. Or else you have no grounding to stand on.

- Try to think of every aspect of today?s world: the human race on planet earth. What humans are, how we are, our self-awareness, and our ability to do either right or wrong. The circumstances of life are 100% perfect how an All Knowing God would test you, to see if you?ll believe or not. If (non-existing) technology recorded the creation of earth and mankind, and displayed throughout history for man to view, there would be less of a test to submit to the Creator. If God directly spoke to mankind, there would be less of a test. In fact, for a long time there would be no test: everyone would know there is a God that simply longs for your love and praise for He created you.

Nah.. A child can be trained to do wrong but to see it as normal. PERFECT?!! *LMAO Why don't you STAND in front of a starving Ethiopian child and say that.. And the next.. And the next and the next...

- For a moment, free your mind of any anti religious feelings you have developed as a result of your environment upbringing (religion is for the weak, religion was created by man for control, religion blocks reason, etc.) for these feelings lead to disillusionment from your God, your Lord. Now, pretend you?re living during the time of one of the prophets: Moses, Jesus, Abraham, Muhammad, or whoever. You?re witnessing Jesus do miracles, the honest man from Mecca you knew all your life is shouting things about the one and only true God worthy of worship. Many atheists will argue that organized religion is simply a ?successful? cult because thousands of years ago people easily bought it. Why are there billions of Muslims and Christians today then?

And what does numbers prove? Zip. No, wait a sec.. A couple of billions, non-Godbased fundamentalists are going into Limbo, hell, or whatever. I'd say the certain faiths are very ethnic-based. You won't find too many Asians in the abrahamic faiths.

If I were to imaginge it, I'd give them all hell for the stupidity of all abrahamic cultures caused to humanity. I'll still consider them great teachers with good intentions but unaware of the implications.


- Most people do believe in God, but deceive themselves in order to do what they want guilt free. I have two non religious friends who also like to trip. I asked them if they would ever watch a movie about the life and times of Jesus Christ. They said they wouldn?t want that ?make believe? stuff setting into their head. Truth is, and according to the Qur?an, those who truly do not believe in their hearts that God is real has a spiritual sickness brought on by free will- The hard core atheists of today will never find salvation, despite how easily it is to obtain it. If a true kufr took LSD and watched the 1965 movie ?The Greatest Story Ever Told?, he would still stand in his beliefs, and not feel uneasy about the movie. If the person denounced previous belief in nothing, and converted to Christianity as a result of this experience, he in fact did believe in God all his life, only deceived himself from seeing it in striking clarity.

Do you know how insulting it is to use the word "kuhr", atheist or not? So much for humility.

Cite the Qur'an passages for these:

Humans originated in the Middle East, and began to spread out over time, creating different races from environmental factors, and different cultures and languages. This is how Muhammad explained it too.

- Space is constantly expanding. Supported in Islam. Think of the universe as being a balloon. The edge of the balloon being the edge of space. What?s at the other end of the balloon? We can?t comprehend it, because we can hardly comprehend God. All we know is that he loves us more than we can even know. We know he loves to forgive sinners in this life.

- Physics and science. Supported in Islam.



- Many who chose not to believe in God do it out of disagreement with some of it. They do not agree with the idea of eternal torment for not believing, or that they cannot have sex with members of the same gender, so they refuse to open their hearts to the truth.

In conclusion, if you don?t believe in your heart after reading this, you probably never will and it?s your own fault for creating that burden. Remember these two things: If you don?t believe in the big picture, it?s because you don?t agree with it. It?s your duty to put your Creator in front of everything else, including yourself. The highway to Hell is wide and fast, the stairway to Heaven is steep and narrow.


In conclusion, it'sq uite self-righteous and contradicting of your GOD (the ALL Merciful) and you to judge people's disagreements. I suppose my parents, Amidists, are going the "wide and fast." You said this in front of me, you'll kiss the cement, immediately. NOt because I'm violent, because your enculterated ignorance and little understanding in the ramifications of your views. I doubt I hit you, but I'll give a serious lipping on your preaching.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
enthusiast
Registered: 07/15/01
Posts: 200
Last seen: 22 years, 3 days
Re: God Exists [Re: vkk_]
    #584487 - 03/20/02 05:24 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Expression of self-empowerment and self-realization. That answer your question? it's like gnosis.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMentalHygene
otherworldly

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 192
Loc: Somewhere...Under the rai...
Last seen: 20 years, 3 months
Re: God Exists [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #584570 - 03/20/02 07:10 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I cant believe we are having this discussion again.


--------------------
"WHATS THE USE OF AUTONOMY WHEN A BUTTON DOES IT ALL?"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMeltingPenguin
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2,138
Loc: new england
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #584575 - 03/20/02 07:17 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAAHhhahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahha


Zahid, do you go to christian rock concerts? isyour favorite band Creed? or are they not underground enough for you. Hav you ever seen Bible man?

I can't believe how primitve you are! You believe in the Sky god, peeing down at us from atop,...you beleive in inveted concepts like good and evil, you are an absoulute GEM! sooo cute, your like a monkey!
so you believe in the Devil too? and angels? dones't beleiving in more tha one Deity make you a pagen? Oh, I won't get too into the paradoxes of your imposed belief sytem
hahahahaahah your fantastic! your rock!


--------------------
Growing anything is good for the soul

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMeltingPenguin
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2,138
Loc: new england
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #584576 - 03/20/02 07:19 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

i'm sorry, lol, Gods holding us in a balloon, lol,



--------------------
Growing anything is good for the soul

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMeltingPenguin
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2,138
Loc: new england
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #584581 - 03/20/02 07:22 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

<<<>>>

i'm sorry everthing you say is just soo stupi i can't stop commenting...

THis is WRONG, humans came from africa, nt the middle east. Religion came from the middle east, humans came fro africa, and Jesus was BLACK!!!


--------------------
Growing anything is good for the soul

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: God Exists [Re: MeltingPenguin]
    #584607 - 03/20/02 07:59 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

so you?ve seen dogma, too. eh?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: God Exists [Re: MeltingPenguin]
    #584657 - 03/20/02 09:11 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

MeltingPenguin:
"Religion came from the middle east"

How's that?

MeltingPenguin:
"Jesus was BLACK!!! "

Jesus was a Jew, Jews are Semitic.

Come on, if you're going to pick on somebody for being stupid check your
own facts.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineemptyvessel
newbie
Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 47
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
Re: God Exists [Re: ]
    #584955 - 03/21/02 03:52 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I am black and I am a jew.... Not really but you get my point... or maybe not.... does it matter?...

Everything dies

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAsante
Omnicyclion prophet
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,363
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #584976 - 03/21/02 04:47 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Hi everybody!

"God exists". Well, in order for you to even think of that, you should have some definitions straight for yourself. A major question should be: "What's MY Definition of God???" You an only ask yourself this if you've spent lotsa hours thinking about stuff in general, should you want to include rationality in your beliefs as well. (This is NOT a personal attack to anyone/any religion!)

My definition of God is centered around His/Her/It's oldest name. Way older than Christianity, way before Islam, going back into "Dreamtime" as the Aboriginals would call it, over 10.000 years ago. This Oldest name of the Divine is:

"The All-Encompassing One"

Does Older mean "Better"? Ofcourse not!!! The hemorrhoid predates the ointment, and I wouldn't call THOSE better! Every religion is equally valuable in my views.

Should you believe that everything is a Whole, and that the total sum of EVERYTHING is God, you've got the same definition as me. The All-Encompassing One. There is only God and there is nothing BUT God. Should this be your definition, there's no going around the thought that GOD IN FACT DOES EXIST. (I've got a whole truckload more, but I'll spare you guys the trouble of zapping over my post) God is everything that ever Was, Is or Shall be & and anything remotely possible too.

How do I view other religions: I try to see their Deities as faces of One & the Same, and yes: that includes Devils & Demons & Kali and all those less-nice ones too. Everything that goes down happens because it's God's Will. So how about that starving African child then? I believe that all "souls" are just One Soul, this being Gods own. Since i also believe in finite possibilities taken into the Infinite, every life that exists is yours & you'll live through it for all eternity. Out of this (and some other Good Shit) follows that you'll be the starving child as well as the Happiest person in the Universe, again & again, into the Infinite and not only that: You are a piece of God that is essential & equally valuable as anything, holding a piece of The Soul.

Now you all know where I'm coming from, you'll understand that I'm opposed to the Idea of "Sin" if that applies to everyone equally the same. Since God is "The All-Encompassing One" in my view, nothing that DOES happen is against His/Her/It's Will. Every life has it's purpose. That may include a judge parking your ass on Death Row if the purpose includes stuff that society at large doesn't condone, but it'll be God's Will nontheless. There is a "General Message" that applies to most people, and you can find it in any one of the Holy Books & if you're into Organized Religion you should shop around until you find the Face of God that fits your life best. For some this may mean withdrawing from everything to find Total Peace with the All to arrive on Krishna's Planet & do away with reincarnation forever, for others it might mean trying to follow the Teachings of Mohammed or Jesus as perfectly as you an achieve.

I'm a Wiccan, as some might have guessed, this being a Pagan Religion. In Wicca there is NO SUCH THING as a Holybook. There are a few basic rules to it. One of the things True Wicca advocates is that you try & find your Own Way: This means you don't get a readymade Holybook: You should write a B.O.S (Book of Shadows), this being your own personal Holybook. Wicca doesn't have "followers" but only "Priests & Priestesses". It ain't centralized too: through lore it's decided that if groups should be formed (called "Covens") it would be best if there would be less than 13 members, none being "followers only". Does this sound like total Anarchy? Hmm... kinda, yeah; but should all noses be pointed in the same direction on ANYTHING?????
True Wicca is far removed from TV stuff like that series "Charmed" & such and I won't even go into stuff like that (good) movie "Rosemary's Baby" !!! Do I think Wicca is the Very Best Religion? For me personally: Yes, but if it really were THE religion (don't believe in that) twig brooms would be a multi-billion dollar industry.

Does God exist? In life one can never be sure of anything, but I'd say: YES. I BELIEVE.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFliquid
Back from being gone.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/18/02
Posts: 6,953
Loc: omotive
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: God Exists [Re: vkk_]
    #584985 - 03/21/02 05:16 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

People say there is a god because they have to find satisfaction in something that can explain the unknown. There is no god, never was, never will be. It is just a fairytail made up to fill in the empty space of why we are alive.

We are alive because chance made it so. Not because something or someone, made us to check out what would happen. Like, make a man and a woman place them on a circle of life and let them go and see what happens.

And why is that not so? Because that would meant there is a crazy experimenter out there waiting for us to come and tell him/her we hate what he did. Because he/she left us here without a clear explanation on why the hell we are here and with what reason.

That is completely not logical and since most things are logical. It again explains that there is no god.

Life is so easy, people just tend to make an issue out of every single thing they can't explain. Or say "its gods will". Think about it, i hope you get the picture.

I can go on but i hope you understand now.


--------------------
:dancing: My latest music! :yesnod:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: God Exists [Re: Fliquid]
    #584991 - 03/21/02 05:27 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

"we are the universe, not just a part of it"

true, very true... and the universe is god... therefore we ARE god, not just a part of it...

and believe me, he put ourselves (we did, for that matter) here WITH a clear explanation... we only chose to forget that explanation, in order to experience the so called "dark side"... we are here to create and experience the greatest version of the most divine vision we ever held about ourselves... everyday, every second recreating ourselves anew...


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFliquid
Back from being gone.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/18/02
Posts: 6,953
Loc: omotive
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: God Exists [Re: In(di)go]
    #584994 - 03/21/02 05:37 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Lozt soul,

I am glad for you that find satisfaction in a replacement truth.
I hope it gives you joy and pleasure in life.

But i on the other hand don't agree, and say everyone is entitled to his own ideas. The mind is free, unless if you degrade yourself with other peoples lies.


--------------------
:dancing: My latest music! :yesnod:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblevkk_
DNA Timebomb

Registered: 02/03/02
Posts: 1,289
Loc: Planet Erf, Yo.
Re: God Exists [Re: Fliquid]
    #585029 - 03/21/02 07:36 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

"he put ourselves (we did, for that matter) here WITH a clear explanation... we only chose to forget that explanation"

this is pure speculation. as is most of this discussion.
the psychological need to feel important is evident behind the belief that we were put here. i think it's more likely that life is created by chance (lightning striking the ocean creating basic amino acids which evolved into primitive life, blah blah blah)


--------------------
I remember, the first time, I... smoked DMT.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFliquid
Back from being gone.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/18/02
Posts: 6,953
Loc: omotive
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: God Exists [Re: vkk_]
    #585075 - 03/21/02 08:49 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

"the psychological need to feel important is evident behind the belief that we were put here."

It all ends up in self sustaining. And reproducing.

Thats the basis for all life, including us. Humans tend to overdue things and make things lager then real.


--------------------
:dancing: My latest music! :yesnod:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBBin
BlueOvertoneStorm

Registered: 04/30/99
Posts: 455
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #586326 - 03/22/02 12:11 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

spiritual materialism is dangerous, watch out. You may have grown some levels to be able to see from a higher point of view now, but dont let this new vision blind you up to the point where it stops your growth! Its good to know, its good to belief, there is a lot of strength to be found in that, but be carefull to not let your faith narrow your mind and ultimately close your heart. always be open. always be.


--------------------
Thought is born blind but Mind knows what is Seeing

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrapula
explorer
Registered: 03/21/02
Posts: 20
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Fliquid]
    #586704 - 03/22/02 08:04 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Good quote from a book I read "Origins"(scientific, not religous reading) The author asked "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Think about it.....if you can answer this you, you can know everything.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAmoeba665
strange
Registered: 05/23/00
Posts: 275
Loc: a hidden microutopia at t...
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Crapula]
    #586869 - 03/22/02 11:50 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

to be infinitely nothing, that must be the loneliest feeling in the world..


--------------------
---

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMorgue Juice
journeyman

Registered: 05/06/00
Posts: 41
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #586952 - 03/23/02 02:19 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Why don't we just say there is a god and there isn't a god, both at the same time and be done with it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,227
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 8 hours, 35 minutes
Re: God Exists [Re: Morgue Juice]
    #587134 - 03/23/02 07:37 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

You can't prove that there is

You can't prove that there isn't

Just believe what you believe. I for one believe that we are all God.



--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLordPeter
newbie
Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 30
Last seen: 21 years, 5 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #587209 - 03/23/02 09:56 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Zahid - That was a erm, interesting post.

Islam - I think It's a disgrace to the human race. Isnt it this very same religion that makes people like you believe your God will send you to paradise with 384 virgin wifes for packing yourselves with explosives and blowing up innocent teenagers? Somehow I think someone was having a laugh when they put that in your religion.

You may believe in the Korans teachings, but please dont try and tell us we're going to burn in hell if we dont fall for it too, Id much rather believe in Santa Claus's teachings thank you, and im sure Christians and Jews would not agree that their religions are in any way like yours either.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBBin
BlueOvertoneStorm

Registered: 04/30/99
Posts: 455
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: God Exists [Re: LordPeter]
    #587227 - 03/23/02 10:36 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Lordpeter, do not confuse islam with extremist fundamentalist nutheads. Its like blaming christianity for the actions of the kukluxklan.


--------------------
Thought is born blind but Mind knows what is Seeing

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineseeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #587280 - 03/23/02 11:49 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

...fe)=(Death)=(Life)=(Death)=(Li...- the formula for all existence

As long as We continue to believe that We and/or our God(s) stand outside of this
equation We will remain blind. The only sin is ignorace through choice. Everything else is only variations on a theme.

Dose this make sense?


--------------------
In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom.

Thou art God (but so am i :wink:)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAmoeba665
strange
Registered: 05/23/00
Posts: 275
Loc: a hidden microutopia at t...
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: God Exists [Re: seeker]
    #587333 - 03/23/02 12:58 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

i grok...

i thin that the proof of god's existence is everywhere, in everything.. we are living proof. but if something is self evident and people still choose to not realize that fact, there is nothing you can say or do to prove it to them that hasn't already been tried..


--------------------
---

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,227
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 8 hours, 35 minutes
Re: God Exists [Re: seeker]
    #587344 - 03/23/02 01:11 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

FUCK DUDE!

I was going to change my name on my one-year anniversary to "The Seeker". FUCK. Now I can't do it.

shit.


--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: God Exists [Re: LordPeter]
    #587568 - 03/23/02 06:52 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

lordpeter... i agree with bbin... believe it or not, there is not one single line in the qu?ran that sais youll go to heaven if you kill for ala... the qu?ran, as far as i?ve read theaches you to love your fellow man, just like yourself... as does almost every religion... too bad an awful lot of the believers tend to overread that line...
catholicism is not better than islam... look at the cruzades, or the inquizition... man that was evil...
so don?t believe everything TV tells you about these guys...


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: God Exists [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #588069 - 03/24/02 11:48 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

MeltingPenguin wrote:

In reply to:

Zahid, do you go to christian rock concerts? isyour favorite band Creed? or are they not underground enough for
you. Hav you ever seen Bible man?

I can't believe how primitve you are! You believe in the Sky god, peeing down at us from atop,...you beleive in
inveted concepts like good and evil, you are an absoulute GEM! sooo cute, your like a monkey!
so you believe in the Devil too? and angels? dones't beleiving in more tha one Deity make you a pagen? Oh, I won't
get too into the paradoxes of your imposed belief sytem
hahahahaahah your fantastic! your rock!




Why would I go to Christian rock concerts? Yes, I've seen the Bible before. I live in the west, like most of you, I attended church briefly when I was young. I'm aware what Christianity is. And yes, Muslims believe in angels, jinns, and a shaytaan (Satan to you). But we believe in them as creations of Allah, and not a partner with Him. You meant to say "you rock!" right?

ArCh_TemPlaR:




God exist because of the *books*. We can go back and erased or rewrite such histories, and we wouldn't be having this conversation,
hypothetically speaking. An existence of GOD means little if you haven't heard of it before. And Your brand of "free choice" morality is quite
creepy. Since there many passed-on cultures that are non-God based religions, your morality doesn't fit the criteria.

And so what if the "three" existed? It has no correlation to the all Eastern systems. Some of the kabbalah systems do have relevancy. If
you're going to assert the "Totality", you should try to explain the similarities with the East. Or else you have no grounding to stand on.


While in the far East Christianity and Judaism is almost unheard of, Islam exists there and is growing rapidly. If you have died never learning about the truth, Allah will have mercy on you and allow you into Paradise. If you've been raised a Buddhist or a Hindu, and never learned of Islam, Allah will be merciful towards you because He is most merciful.


Because Islam is growing so fast, it exists everywhere in the world, from Argentina to China.

Nah.. A child can be trained to do wrong but to see it as normal. PERFECT?!! *LMAO Why don't you STAND in front of a starving Ethiopian
child and say that.. And the next.. And the next and the next...


Of course, but the child will eventually become an adult; learning what right and wrong is naturally.



And what does numbers prove? Zip. No, wait a sec.. A couple of billions, non-Godbased fundamentalists are going into Limbo, hell, or
whatever. I'd say the certain faiths are very ethnic-based. You won't find too many Asians in the abrahamic faiths.

If I were to imaginge it, I'd give them all hell for the stupidity of all abrahamic cultures caused to humanity. I'll still consider them great
teachers with good intentions but unaware of the implications.


Faith isn't ethnic-based at all. You'll find millions of Asian Muslims in the world because Islam is the perfect religion and it prevails all over the world. Since Christianity prevails in europe and in the west, there are not that many Asian Christians, but I'm sure there is a number of them. Islam will continue to grow in the far east, as it already does.

In conclusion, it'sq uite self-righteous and contradicting of your GOD (the ALL Merciful) and you to judge people's disagreements. I suppose
my parents, Amidists, are going the "wide and fast." You said this in front of me, you'll kiss the cement, immediately. NOt because I'm
violent, because your enculterated ignorance and little understanding in the ramifications of your views. I doubt I hit you, but I'll give a
serious lipping on your preaching


It's different when you're in disagreement with the truth. Why do you feel your parents are going the "wide and fast"? Because they are? My own mother is going the "wide and fast", do you think it's any easier because I'm a Muslim? Heh. You would hit a Muslim on the street for preaching? I'm not even going to reply to that. Educate yourself on Islam, ArCh_TemPlaR. You'll find that it doesn't wage war on science but supports it, and that it makes sense. There's a select few on this board who I think would embrace Islam if they knew everything there is to know about it. Lozt Soul is one of them, and maybe even you ArCh, if you would get over your attitude that you're too good for organized religion and open your mind to the possibility that everything Muhammad said regarding the afterlife, God, Jesus, Moses, Abraham, is the truth. Get over yourself, and you'll find Islam is the best thing that could ever happen to you. I did, and I used to take everything Marilyn Manson said to heart. Visit The Truth and you'll see what I'm talking about when I say "Islam is the truth"


--------------------

Edited by Zahid (03/24/02 11:54 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBBin
BlueOvertoneStorm

Registered: 04/30/99
Posts: 455
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #588196 - 03/24/02 02:16 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

... this is why for me most 'discussions' on god are quite useless and rather annoying, all these sides taken and rather pointless arguments on irrelevant aspects of what we deem to label 'godhood'. All we can do is tell each other our own versions, but what can we ever achieve by trying to convince (or convict) someone else according to what we ourselves think to be the true nature of god and spirit? I am right, yet i am no righter then you. And of course you are right, yet i choose to stand left of that, doesnt mean that we cannot both be right. Perspectives, relative angles, points of view, subject, mind, do you really think to hold a claim on 'the' thruth? Well then, more power to you brother!
....this and that and blah blah blah, you see?, so, surely now you must understand that so and so and ratata the thruth trampampam and thats why i am more right then you....
yawn


--------------------
Thought is born blind but Mind knows what is Seeing

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,227
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 8 hours, 35 minutes
Re: God Exists [Re: BBin]
    #588233 - 03/24/02 03:06 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe by throwing different opinions out there we can all come to strengthen our own personal thruths. Or maybe we should just remove the S& P forum from this board all together. Then you wouldn't have to see people expressing their own truths so much.


--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish


Edited by Learyfan (03/24/02 03:09 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBBin
BlueOvertoneStorm

Registered: 04/30/99
Posts: 455
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Learyfan]
    #588935 - 03/25/02 11:24 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

thank you learyfan for giving an example of what i was talking about. Instead of a nice interaction and exchange of insight you respond to my ego-based post with a mirroring ego-centered reply, turning this discussion into an argument about who is right or wrong, about what someone 'maybe' should or shouldnt do, because of this of that and so and so. All this sarcastic arrogance, does it really help you to express your 'thruth'? Thats really quite sad man.
And so, from a conversation about what we feel about god, we have digressed into this. nice one.. .
...


--------------------
Thought is born blind but Mind knows what is Seeing

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBBin
BlueOvertoneStorm

Registered: 04/30/99
Posts: 455
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: God Exists [Re: BBin]
    #588942 - 03/25/02 11:35 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

funny, if i post something with substance, something that expresses something of what i feel myself, nobody responds, but if i post a negative remark, something which expresses some of my personal dissatisfaction about the interaction on these forums, then immediatly i get a respond in kind, totally irrelevant, expressing nothing but a programmed respond drenched in sarcastic arrogance serving only to hide ignorance. funny, or 'maybe' its just sad. anybody learn anything new in here today? anything to make it worth your while?


--------------------
Thought is born blind but Mind knows what is Seeing

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: God Exists [Re: BBin]
    #589095 - 03/25/02 03:48 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

yup... i learned something


--------------------

Edited by Lozt Soul (03/25/02 03:52 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemckenna
Stranger
Registered: 03/25/02
Posts: 1
Last seen: 22 years, 19 days
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #589183 - 03/25/02 05:19 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

To me it realy looks like it's time for some new ideas about religion and life. How do you, Zahir, explain the very fact that we humans today have the power to either destroy the planet on wich we live, or create a united, intelligent and sensible world where the important things in life reach everyone. With this almighty God of yours, how do you explain our role in this. You (or your religion) claim that God created the earth for us. But with the progression of technological evolution, it's only a matter of time before we can colonise other parts of the universe. We actually have the power to push our and possibly large portions of the universes destiny in the direction we want just by choosing. This power is also getting greater and greater as the knowledge of the situation we find ourselfs increase.

What I dislike about your ideas, Zahir, is first of all that they are not yours. You have chosen to believe in a beliefsystem created centurys ago. Beliefsystems are based on, you guessed it, beliefs. Trust me when I say this. NO ONE REALLY KNOWS. Second of all, this belief claims to know as much about God as we humans will ever know. This is kind of silly if you think about it. Should we, the first organism on this planet to have religious ideas think that we already have all the knowledge that we ever could have about the Other, or the Unspeakable, or God?

What I think will happen as we develop better and more sophisticated ways to work with the psychedelic experience is that it will show the religions for what they are. As we gain more knowledge about the situation in wich we are embedded, we will see that the religions are on to something for sure. But so is science. So is philosophy. So are all the things wich make us progress in understanding.

We must also be open to the idea that we know very little about what is happening. The religions are crystalised belifesystem with little or no room for new ideas. One of religions rules are that they are right, and therefore you should believe them. As you say: "Accept it, or suffer in the hereafter." So the religion can not be questioned. This rule hinders the progression of understanding, and that isn't very empowering for the individual.

Your picture of the universe is like a monarchy, with a powerful king (God) setting ALL the rules and punishing those who don't follow them. Is this the kind of universe you would create if you had the possibillity to do so? Last time I checked monarchy was thrown out and replaced by democracy. I'm not saying democracy is the best way. I'm just saying it's better than monarchy. It's when you start to question the existing ideas that you can come up with new and hopefully better ideas that are closer to the truth. Likewise, todays religions are probably going to have to be replaced by something better (and truer). Hopefully a new kind of overarching metaphor that unifies us and gives us the power to create the edenlike world that we all would like to live in.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: God Exists [Re: mckenna]
    #589433 - 03/25/02 09:22 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

To me it realy looks like it's time for some new ideas about religion and life. How do you, Zahir, explain the very fact that we humans today have the power to either destroy the planet on wich we live, or create a united, intelligent and sensible world where the important things in life reach everyone. With this almighty God of yours, how do you explain our role in this. You (or your religion) claim that God created the earth for us. But with the progression of technological evolution, it's only a matter of time before we can colonise other parts of the universe. We actually have the power to push our and possibly large portions of the universes destiny in the direction we want just by choosing. This power is also getting greater and greater as the knowledge of the situation we find ourselfs increase.

It doesn't matter where a human travels in the universe, he's still in the physical world. There are many things that are not possible because it is in the will of Allah, Most High. This includes things like time travel, and to "push our and possible large portions of the universe destiny in the direction we want", or whatever you were trying to say. God wouldn't allow humans to literally destroy the planet, because it's not in His plan, and Allah is the best of planners.

What I dislike about your ideas, Zahir, is first of all that they are not yours. You have chosen to believe in a beliefsystem created centurys ago. Beliefsystems are based on, you guessed it, beliefs. Trust me when I say this. NO ONE REALLY KNOWS. Second of all, this belief claims to know as much about God as we humans will ever know. This is kind of silly if you think about it. Should we, the first organism on this planet to have religious ideas think that we already have all the knowledge that we ever could have about the Other, or the Unspeakable, or God?

Yes, the belief system Muslims follow is centuries old; but it's authentic. My beliefs are based on the Holy Qur'an, the complete word of God make book. Trust me when I say this: You can spend your time in this life wondering what the afterlife is, what the big picture is, etc. when you have three religions crafted by God's messengers right in front of your eyes. You don't follow them because somewhere in your mind/subconscious you disagree with its teachings. You can become atheist, and die with complete disbelief in a Creator. Or you can submit your will to the will of God and know what awaits you in the next life.

What I think will happen as we develop better and more sophisticated ways to work with the psychedelic experience is that it will show the religions for what they are. As we gain more knowledge about the situation in wich we are embedded, we will see that the religions are on to something for sure. But so is science. So is philosophy. So are all the things wich make us progress in understanding.

Explain a better and more sophisticated way to work with the psychedelic experience. Psychedelics are not like technology. The more intelligent a person is, the more he will get out of a psychedelic session. Example, two intelligent persons using LSD; One person might take LSD and decide there is no God and no afterlife from what he learned during the trip. Another person might take LSD, find God, and begin a journey of self-discovery. Psychedelics won't "show religion for what it is" because the experience of faith is one hard to explain, and most kafirs won't find God if they take psychedelics because they've closed their hearts. The more I trip, the more I believe in Allah.

We must also be open to the idea that we know very little about what is happening. The religions are crystalised belifesystem with little or no room for new ideas. One of religions rules are that they are right, and therefore you should believe them. As you say: "Accept it, or suffer in the hereafter." So the religion can not be questioned. This rule hinders the progression of understanding, and that isn't very empowering for the individual.

When you add new ideas to an already perfect religion of God, you get something like Christianity. Islam has never changed since Muhammad's time, and that is why the religion is so great; it's the final word of God. Adding new ideas to a religion of God is distorting the word of God. There is a reason these faiths say you must believe: they're real. I've gotten into alot of discussions with fellow Muslims about "faith hindering reason". We all agreed that it simply doesn't, and never has, because we know the truth. We experienced the mercy of God, and it is the greatest feeling ever. The kafir though, view faith as anything from a crutch for the weak minded to complete evil. The unbelievers will say anything in opinion, theory, or belief to eachother to comfort one another.

Your picture of the universe is like a monarchy, with a powerful king (God) setting ALL the rules and punishing those who don't follow them. Is this the kind of universe you would create if you had the possibillity to do so? Last time I checked monarchy was thrown out and replaced by democracy. I'm not saying democracy is the best way. I'm just saying it's better than monarchy. It's when you start to question the existing ideas that you can come up with new and hopefully better ideas that are closer to the truth. Likewise, todays religions are probably going to have to be replaced by something better (and truer). Hopefully a new kind of overarching metaphor that unifies us and gives us the power to create the edenlike world that we all would like to live in.

To compare the great test of life to a form of government is absurd. Since I was 13, or 14, I always questioned the meaning of things. I was always a seeker for the ultimate truth. Eventually I reasoned that God existed. The word God itself is a result of the Abrahamic faiths, so I reasoned that one of them was true, if not all of them. Then I reasoned that Islam was the undistorted word of God, and that the teachings of Islam is how the one true God would go about plans. Inshallah.


--------------------

Edited by Zahid (03/25/02 09:37 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #589470 - 03/25/02 10:12 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

"...when dogma enters the brain, all intellectual activity ceases."

"...belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort,
or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence. The more
certitude one assumes, the less there is to think about, and a person sure of everything
would never have any need to think about anything and might be considered clinically
dead under current medical standards, where the absence of brain activity is taken
to mean that life has ended. "


-- Robert Anton Wilson

I posted these quotes in another thread, but they seem appropriate here as well.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: God Exists [Re: ]
    #589485 - 03/25/02 10:27 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

"...when dogma enters the brain, all intellectual activity ceases."

"...belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort,
or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence. The more
certitude one assumes, the less there is to think about, and a person sure of everything
would never have any need to think about anything and might be considered clinically
dead under current medical standards, where the absence of brain activity is taken
to mean that life has ended."


-- Robert Anton Wilson

I posted these quotes in another thread, but they seem appropriate here as well.


That theory would be valid if God did not exist, and if the faiths were a lie. But God does exist, and He did reveal His guidance to humans. In fact, even in the scenario that there was no hereafter, having faith would certainly not hinder the intelligence of a person and the ability to reason. Sounds like Robert Wilson is trying to comfort himself.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #589529 - 03/25/02 11:25 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Zahid:
"That theory would be valid if God did not exist, and if the faiths were a lie. But
God does exist, and He did reveal His guidance to humans."


Sound like your intellectual activity on the subject has ceased. Please prove that god
exists and if it exists, that it did reveal it's guidance to humans. (note: quoting religious
texts does not qualify as proof, argument 'by design' is not a proof.)

Zahid:
"In fact, even in the scenario that there was no hereafter, having faith would certainly
not hinder the intelligence of a person and the ability to reason."


What if reason leads one to conclude that religious faith has no basis in any facts that
can be verified? If a god really does exist and it endowed humans with a special place
in creation, giving them the ability to reason, why should humans abondon reason
when it comes to questioning a god's existence? Does a god fear logic?

Zahid:
"Sounds like Robert Wilson is trying to comfort himself."

Sounds like Zahid is trying to comfort himself over his lack of critical thinking.

Edited by evolving (03/26/02 12:01 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLoneGunny
Stranger
Registered: 03/25/02
Posts: 1
Loc: usa,socal (help)
Re: God Exists [Re: ]
    #589547 - 03/25/02 11:55 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

God is a big pink elephant.
I have yet to see one (well on the Dumbo movie, but that doesn't count cause there
the elephants were also manmade)


--------------------
No men cries when freedom fails the best men rot in filthy jails ,while those who cried "appease appease",where the ones they tried to please

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFliquid
Back from being gone.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/18/02
Posts: 6,953
Loc: omotive
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Its a shame... [Re: LoneGunny]
    #589628 - 03/26/02 02:00 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

To see, that the post has gone from 5 to 1 without a clear GOOD reply.
I have not read anything that connects to the way i feel about it.
And since i is an ego, i must be an egoist. And since people say there is a god, then god or allah must be an egoist also. And we are all egoists. The rich think of the rich. And the poor think of getting rich.

Who thinks about other?

Well me. There is no god people, if there was a god. He was not as in the bible. The bible and the koran are compilations of truth and lies. Be offended i don't care, because if you are offended you then are on a lower level then me. Because i can see without the fairytale of god. I know there is NO god because i can see the truth. I am so sorry for everyone who does believe in god. And thinks there will be something in a way as god followers say "after death you will go to heaven". Thats like saying "when you smash an apple, you get banana juice".

There is no heaven only human energy that transforms into energy without body.

Please respond. :-D


--------------------
:dancing: My latest music! :yesnod:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: God Exists [Re: ]
    #590062 - 03/26/02 02:04 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Sound like your intellectual activity on the subject has ceased. Please prove that god exists and if it exists, that it did reveal it's guidance to humans. (note: quoting religious texts does not qualify as proof, argument 'by design' is not a proof.)

Please prove that all Muslims, Jews, Christians, Wiccans, Mystics, Buddhists, Hindus, Druids, etc. have ceased intellectual activity. Quoting a theory from C. G. Jung doesn't count, either. While I can't directly prove the existance of God in a way that scientists can prove the earth is round, (God would never allow this, for a man to prove His existance) but I can prove He exists using logic and reason.

What if reason leads one to conclude that religious faith has no basis in any facts that can be verified? If a god really does exist and it endowed humans with a special place in creation, giving them the ability to reason, why should humans abondon reason when it comes to questioning a god's existence? Does a god fear logic?

Humans do have the ability to reason. You do not give up this ability by believing in the Creator. One person can reason that God does not exist, while another can reason that He does. Using logic & reason I concluded that there is an Almighty God, and that only a fool would reject His love. How did I come to this logic?

Using Reason & Logic to Find God

One of the more popular aspects of the i'jaaz (the miraculous nature) of the Qur'aan in these times concerns its comments on aspects of science that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) and his people could not have known about. There are a number of books written about this topic, perhaps the most popular being Maurice Bucaille's The Bible, Qur'an, and Science1 It should be remembered however, that the Qur'aan is not meant to be a book primarily devoted to a discussion of 'science', but rather a book that is meant for the guidance of mankind. As such, any references to subjects of a scientific nature are typically brief and not very descriptive. The i'jaaz, however appears in the fact that even in these limited descriptions, the Qur'aan conforms exactly to modern science, and imparts knowledge that was unknown during the lifetime of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam). These descriptions are free from retroactive ideas that plagued humanity from the earliest of times, such as the concept that the Earth is stationary, and all the other planets and stars rotate around it.

There are numerous examples of such verses, such as the description of the formation of human life. The sperm of man is referred to as a 'mixture of liquids' (76:2), since the sperm is composed of various secretions from the testicles, the seminal vesicles, the prostate and other glands. From the literally millions of sperms produced and ejaculated, only one sperm is actually used in the fertilization process - a very small quantity. This is referred to in a number of verses by the word 'nutfah' (75:37) which signifies a small quantity of mixed fluid. the sperm then hoins the female egg and forms the zygote. This occurs in the mother's womb, a 'safe lodging' (23:13). (see Chapters 3, 4, 5 and 6 - Web Ed.). ...

During the delivery process, the passage of the baby from the mother's womb to the outside world occurs through the birth canal. Typically, this canal is extremely narrow and tight. However, shortly before the birth, certain changes occur, including the release of certain hormones, the contractions of the uterus, and the breakage of the 'bag of water' surrounding the baby, all of which contribute to making the canal loose. This is referred to in 80:20, "then We made the passage (though the birth canal) easy."

Perhaps the best way to appreciate the beauty of the above verses is to see pictures of the human embryo as it goes through the various stages of development...(see Chapters 3, 4, 5 and 6 - Web Ed)

The vivid yet simple descriptions given in these verses (i.e. 22:5) were unknown to the people of the Prophet's time, demonstrating the i'jaaz of the Qur'aan in Science.

Other facts that are given in the Qur'aan include the description of the formation of milk (16:66), the notion of orbits for the planets (21:33 and 36:40), and the description of the water cycle (15:22, 35:9 and more). Every verse that discusses nature and the creation falls into this category. In many verses, Allah Himself commands mankind to ponder over the creation, and mentions these as an indication of His Existence and Power. (3:190-191)

One final note on the concept of science as an i'jaaz of the Qur'aan: There can never be a real contradictions between the Qur'aan and the Laws of Allah concerning the creation (i.e. actual science). The Qur'aan is the Book of Allah, and since it is from Allah "there is no doubt in it" (2:1)

Likewise, the laws that govern the creation are also from Allah. What is studied as 'science', on the other hand, is the attempt by man to understand the creation and laws of Allah. Therefore it is possible fro a scientific assumption to be incorrect, and this is clearly demonstrated by historically scientific 'facts' as the Earth being flat, or the orbiting of the Sun around the Earth. These concepts were believed to in so strongly by the 'scientists' of their time that, on occasion, those who opposed them were harassed and even killed. Yet, later scientists discovered the inaccuracy of these concepts.

Therefore, when there is a conflict between the meaning of a clear, explicit verse (meaning qat'ee ad-dalaalah) of the Qur'aan and 'modern' science. a Muslim must take the verse of the Qur'aan - without hesitation - over any scientific 'fact'. A rejection of such a verse, or even the apparent meaning of such a verse, would be tantamount to a rejection of Allah's knowledge. For example, the theory of evolution is, for the most part, agreed upon by the majority of non-Muslim scholars. Whether there is strong proof to back up the theory or not is irrelevant - the Qur'aan is clear that Allah created Adam from His own Hands, and "From him He created his mate, and from these two He spread forth many men and women" (4:1)

Therefore a Muslim can never believe in the theory that men are descendants of apes, no matter what "proof" might seem to exist.2 Neither is it allowed, as some Muslim rationalists have done, to try to interpret clear Qur'aanic texts to suit modern theories. Following the above example, to try to interpret the story of the creation of Adam and Eve as actually having been the creation of some Neanderthal neo-human species is almost as blasphemous as rejecting the verse in the first place!

It is possible, however, for there to be an apparent conflict between a verse and a scientific fact, when no such conflict exists. This occurs when some scholars take one of the possible linguistic meanings of a vers, such that this meaning conforms with the verse, but is not the only meaning that may be derived from it (basically, the verse is dhannee ad-dalaalah). For example some scholars have understood certain verses of the Qur'aan (e.g., "And it is He who has spread out the Earth" (13:3), and (15:9)) to indicate that the Earth is flat, since the phrase 'madd' occurs, which means 'to spread out'. However, this verse is not explicit in stating taht the Earth is flat, and to conclude this from the above verse requires a degree of interpretation. Since there exists clear proof that the Earth is not flat, this interpretation must be rejected. The meaning of the verse, therefore, is that Allah has created this Earth as a very vast place for mankind, and not that the Earth is flat (This principle may also apply to the verse 'baynas sulbi wat taraaib" in soorah At-Taariq referring to semen and interpreted as "coming forth from between the backbone and the ribs or breastbone" - Web Ed).

Also, it is essential that scientific facts are not read in where they do not exist. Unfortunately, this has become an all too common trend among 'modernistic' Muslims who have specialised in science, but are not very familiar with the interpretation of the Qur'aan.3 Once again, the Qur'aan "...is a book of guidance...and not a book of science, nor a mine of cryptic notes on scientific facts."4

For example, many people interpret the following verse as a prediction of space travel by man:

O assembly of Men and Jinns! If you have opower to pass through the zones of the Heavens and Earth - then pass! But you will never be able to pass them except with authority (from Allah) (55:33)

However, a look at the next verse, and the authentic tafseers of Ibn Katheer and At-Tabaree, will show that this verse is in reference to the jinns listening to the whispers of the angels in the Heaven (or to the Resurrection of the creation on the Day of Judgment), and not to inter-galactic travel!

In conclusion, although the scientific aspect of the Qur'aan is one of the aspects of it's i'jaaz, it must be put in its proper place, and a proper methodology needs to be followed in order to extract examples of such verses. It does more harm than good when certain verses int he Qur'aan are 'bent over backwards,' so as to say, to seek to prove that they contain certain implied scientific facts. One only needs to read works in which this methodology was followed to see how ludicrous the conclusions are. (For example, Muhammad Rasheed Ridaa (d. 1935), one of the founders of the 'Modernist' movement, claimed that the 'Jinns' that the Qur'aan was referring to actually alluded to the discovery of disease-arraying microbes!) When such facts are clear and explicit from the verse, they should be mentioned (such as the examples quoted above - and in this book, inshaa-allah), but when they go against the intent and meaning of the verse, they should be abandoned.


How the Qur'aan relates to Geology and the Origin of the Earth

Professor Alfred Kroner: ?and that many of the statements made at the time could be proven, but that modern scientific methods are now in a position to prove what Muhammad said 1400 years ago.

We present to you Professor Alfred Kroner who is one of the world?s most famous geologists. He is a Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenburg University, Mainz, Germany. We met him and presented several Qur'aanic verses and Ahadeeth of the Prophet Muhammad (sallAllahu ?alaihi wa sallam). He studied and commented on them. Then we had a discussion with him.

Professor Kroner said: "Thinking about many of these questions and thinking where Muhammad came from, he was after all a Bedouin. I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case."

Professor Kroner chose an example from the Qur'aan which proved to him why the Qur'aan could not have come from Muhammad (sallAllahu ?alaihi wa sallam) himself. The example which Professor Kroner chose is a description in the Qur'aan of the fact that this universe had its beginnings in one single entity. Allah, may He be Exalted and Glorified said: "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together [ratqan], before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing?" [Qur'aan 21:30] As you know, it was water that allowed all living things to thrive.

The meaning of ratqan in this verse, as Ibn Abbas, Mujaahid, and others (Raziallaahu-t'aala-anha) said, may Allah be pleased with all of them, is that the heavens and the earth were stuck together or blended together, and that they were later separated from each other. Professor Kroner used this as an example to prove that no human being during the time of Prophet Muhammad (sallAllahu ?alaihi wa sallam), could have known this.

Professor Kroner: "Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics 1400 years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind for instance that the earth and the heavens had the same origin, or many others of the questions that we have discussed here."

Professor Kroner, so it seemed to us, has a special talent of being evasive. For example, we asked him to describe the geological conditions of Arabia. ?Was Arabia full of orchards and rivers?? He said: "During the Snow Age." And it is further known that the North Polar icebergs are slowly moving southwards. When those polar icebergs become relatively close to the Arabian Peninsula, the weather will change and Arabia will become one of the greenest and wettest parts of the world. We asked him: ?Will Arabia become the land of orchards and rivers?? He said: "Yes, it is a scientific fact."

This astonished us, and we wondered how he could state this as a scientific fact while it was related to the future and we asked: ?Why?? He said: "Because the new Snow Age has actually started. And we can see the snow crawling once again from the North Pole southwards. In fact, the polar snow is now on the way to get closer to the Arabian Peninsula. We can see the signs of this in the snow blizzards striking the northern parts of Europe and America every winter. Scientists have other signs and information proving the actual beginning of another Snow Age. It is a scientific fact."

So we said to him: ?What you have just mentioned has only been known to scientists after a long series of discoveries and with the help of specialized instruments. But we have already found this mentioned by the Prophet Muhammad (sallAllahu ?alaihi wa sallam) 1400 years ago. He said in a hadeeth transmitted in Saheeh Muslim:

The Last Hour will not come upon us until the lands of the Arabs are once again pasture lands and filled with rivers.

At this point we asked Professor Kroner: ?Who told the Prophet Muhammad (sallAllahu ?alaihi wa sallam), that the lands of the Arabs were once filled with orchards and rivers?? He immediately replied: "The Romans." This reminded me of Professor Kroner?s evasive ability. We asked him another question, we said to him: ?But who informed the Prophet Muhammad (sallAllahu ?alaihi wa sallam), that the lands of the Arabs would once again become pasturelands and be filled with rivers??. Professor Kroner becomes evasive if embarrassed. But whenever he was faced with the truth, he is courageous enough to state his opinion frankly and thus he replied: "This could have been known to him only through revelation from above."

Finally, after our discussions with him, he made the following comments: "If you combine all these and you combine all those statements that are being made in the Qur'aan in terms that relate to the earth and the formation of the earth and science in general, you can basically say that statements made there in many ways are true. They can now be confirmed by scientific methods, and in a way you can say that the Qur'aan is a simple science text book for the simple man, and that many of the statements made in there at that time could not be proven but that modern scientific methods are now in a position to prove what Muhammad said 1400 years ago."

Allah confirms in His Book that:

"This is no less than reminder to (all), the worlds. And you shall certainly know the truth of it all after a while." (Qur'aan 38:87-88).


On the Sensory Characteristics of the Skin

Dr. Tagatat Tejasen: "Laa Ilaahaa IllAllah Muhammad Rasool Allah!"

This man is uttering the Islamic creed (Shahaadah) thus declaring that he is becoming a Muslim. This occurred during the Eighth Saudi Medical Conference which was convened in Riyadh. He is Professor Tejatat Tejasen, Chairman of the Department of Anatomy at Chiang Mai University in Thailand. He was previously the Dean of the Faculty of Medicine at the same university.

We presented to Professor Tejasen some Qur'aanic verses and Prophetic Ahadeeth which deal with his specialization in the field of anatomy. He commented that they also had in their Buddhist books very accurate descriptions of embryonic developmental stages. We told him that we were very anxious and interested to see those descriptions and learn about these books. A year later, Professor Tejasen came to King Abdul Aziz University as an outside examiner. We reminded him of the statement he made one year before, but he apologized and said that he in fact had made that statement without ascertaining the matter. However, when he checked the Buddhist books he found that they contained nothing of relevance to the subject.

Upon this, we presented to him a lecture written by Professor Keith Moore about the compatibility of modern embryology with what is contained in the Qur'aan and the Sunnah and we asked Professor Tejasen if he knew of Professor Keith Moore. He replied that he knew him of course, adding that Professor Moore was one of the most world-renowned scientists in that field.

When Professor Tejasen studied this article he also was greatly astonished. We asked him several questions in his field of specialization. One of the questions pertained to modern discoveries in dermatology about the sensory characteristics of the skin. Dr. Tejasen responded: "Yes if the burn is deep."

It was stated to Dr. Tejasen: You will be interested to know that in this book, the Holy Book - the Qur'aan, there was a reference 1400 years ago which pertains to the moment of punishment of the unbelievers by the fire of Hell and it states that when their skin is destroyed, Allah makes another skin for them so that they perceive the punishment by a fire, indicating knowledge about the nerve endings in the skin, and the verse is as follows:

Those who reject our signs, We shall soon cast into the fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the chastisement. Truly Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. (Qur'aan 4:56).

We asked: So do you agree that this is a reference to the importance of the nerve endings in the skin in sensation, 1400 years ago? Dr. Tejasen responded: "Yes I agree."

"This knowledge about sensation had been known long before, because it says that if somebody does something wrong, then he will be punished by burning his skin and then Allah puts a new skin on him, covers him, to make him know that the test is painful again. That means they knew many years ago that the receptor of pain sensation must be on the skin, so they put a new skin on."

The skin (see Fig. 8.1) is the center of sensitivity to burns. Thus, if the skin is completely burnt by fire, it looses its sensitivity. It is for this reason that Allah will punish the unbelievers on the Day of Judgment by returning to them their skins time after time, as He, the Exalted and Glorified, said in the Qur'aan:

Those who reject our signs, We shall soon cast into the fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the chastisement. Truly Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. (Qur'aan 4:56).

We asked him the following question: ?Is it possible that these verses came to the Prophet Muhammad, (sallAllahu ?alaihi wa sallam), from a human source?? Professor Tejasen conceded that they could have never come from any human source. But he still asked about the source of that knowledge and from where could Muhammad have possibly received it?

We said, "From Allah, the Most Glorified and Most Exalted." Then he asked: "But who is Allah?"

We replied: He is the Creator of all that is in existence. If you find wisdom then it is because it comes only from the one Who is Most Wise. If you find knowledge in the making of this universe, it is because the universe is the creation of the One Who has all the knowledge. If you find perfection in the composition of these creations, then it is proof to you that it is the creation of the One Who Knows Best, and if you find mercy, then this bears witness to the fact that it is the creation of the One Who is Most Merciful. In the same way, if you perceive creation as belonging to one unified order and tied together firmly, then this is proof that it is the creation of the Only Creator, May He be Glorified and Exalted.


Fig. 8.1

Professor Tejasen agreed with what we said to him. He returned to his country where he delivered several lectures about his new knowledge and discoveries. We were informed that five of his students converted to Islam as a result of these lectures. Then at the Eighth Saudi Medical Conference held in Riyadh, Professor Tejasen attended a series of lectures on Medical signs in the Qur'aan and Sunnah.

Professor Tejasen spent four days with several scholars, Muslims and non-Muslims, talking about this phenomenon in the Qur'aan and the Sunnah. At the end of those sessions Professor Tejasen stood up and said:

"In the last three years I became interested in the Qur'aan, which Shaykh Abdul-Majeed Az-Zindani gave me. Last year, I got Professor Keith Moore?s latest script from the shaykh. He asked me to translate it into the Thai language and to give a few lectures to the Muslims in Thailand. I have fulfilled his request. You can see that in the video tape that I have given to the shaykh as a gift. From my studies and from what I have learned throughout this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Qur'aan 1400 years ago must be the truth, that can be proven by scientific means. Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a messenger who relayed this truth which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the One Who is an eligible Creator. This Creator must be Allah, or God. Therefore, I think this is the time to say ?Laa ilaaha illAllah?, that there is no god to worship except Allah, ?Muhammad Rasool Allah?, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah..."

"I have not only learned from the scientific knowledge in the conference, but also the great chance of meeting many new scientists and making many new friends among the participants. The most precious thing that I have gained by coming to this conference is ?Laa ilaaha IllAllah, Muhammad Rasool Allah?, and to have become a Muslim."

The truth verily comes from Allah who said in the Qur'aan: And those to whom knowledge has come see that the (revelation) sent down to thee from thy Lord - that is the truth, and that it guides to the path of the Exalted (in Might), worthy of all praise. (Qur'aan 34:6).


Would you like to know more, evolving? The Creation of Man? How Islam relates to Astronomy? Using reason & logic and armed with this information, I concluded that God is real, and that He did in fact reveal His message to humans centuries ago. I have to hand it to you, evolving. You're one of the most intelligent unbelievers I've debated with so far (I'm not being sarcastic). I hope you read everything in this post, and draw your own conclusions using your ability to reason.

Inshaa'Allah.


--------------------

Edited by Zahid (03/26/02 03:40 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinebedetached
supercalifragolisticexpialidocious

Registered: 01/20/02
Posts: 74
Loc: your mind
Last seen: 19 years, 11 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #590146 - 03/26/02 03:34 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

come on now, who's going to read all that babble......that was just absolutly too long


--------------------
through our senses the world appears. through our reactions we create delusions. without reactions the world becomes clear.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: God Exists [Re: bedetached]
    #590158 - 03/26/02 03:52 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

come on now, who's going to read all that babble......that was just absolutly too long

Someone who wishes to discover the truth.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineseeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #590430 - 03/26/02 09:05 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

If you continue to believe that man did not strugle for every shred of information he has ever gained you will never fully understand or apreciate the power of the analitical mind. Why do you need to believe that any knowledge was "handed down"? Are we so ignorant that we can't understand the nature of the world around us? Fourteen-hundered years ago is not that long in the history of human society and there have been many advanced enough to gain at least some understanding. Just because the barbarians always invaded doesn't mean that the information was lost. Which is why we still posess at least some of the knowledge of Greece and Rome, both of which predate the "Prophet" by a wide margin. You are going to need more proof than, "Those filthy savages couldn't have know that!". Personaly, I get tired of people telling others that before Christianity ( or Islam) we were all just a bunch of ignorant pagans just barely getting by. I'm just not buying it.


--------------------
In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom.

Thou art God (but so am i :wink:)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineseeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #590431 - 03/26/02 09:06 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

If you continue to believe that man did not strugle for every shred of information he has ever gained you will never fully understand or apreciate the power of the analitical mind. Why do you need to believe that any knowledge was "handed down"? Are we so ignorant that we can't understand the nature of the world around us? Fourteen-hundered years ago is not that long in the history of human society and there have been many advanced enough to gain at least some understanding. Just because the barbarians always invaded doesn't mean that the information was lost. Which is why we still posess at least some of the knowledge of Greece and Rome, both of which predate the "Prophet" by a wide margin. You are going to need more proof than, "Those filthy savages couldn't have know that!". Personaly, I get tired of people telling others that before Christianity ( or Islam) we were all just a bunch of ignorant "pagans" just barely getting by. I'm just not buying it.


--------------------
In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom.

Thou art God (but so am i :wink:)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #590469 - 03/26/02 09:30 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Honestly, Zahid, you should really consider taking a class on logic. Your ends (prooving Islam right) are corrupting your means (your... ahem, "logic and reason"). If you expect anyone to take you seriously, try not to boast about something you cannot do. St. Anselm tried prooving the existence of God... the invalidity of his argument was due to poor assumptions, but the invalidity of yours is due to EVERYTHING. You have selective interpretation skills. You cite "reliable" scientists (that no one cares to verify). You're just as much of a whack job as those pro-choice assholes that bomb abortion clinics.

GET A CLUE!
Forcing your "truth" on others will never work anyways.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #590523 - 03/26/02 10:26 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Zahid,

Why do you ask me to prove that all Muslims etc. have ceased intellectual activity instead
of attempting to answer the question that I posed? Oh, for the record Zen Budhism makes
a hell of a lot more sense than all Abrahamic religions combined.

When did I quote Jung?

You stated "While I can't directly prove the existance of God in a way that scientists
can prove the earth is round, (God would never allow this, for a man to prove His
existance) but I can prove He exists using logic and reason."


Where's the logic that you use to prove your god exists? Do you even know what
logic is? Have you ever heard of a syllogism? How about 'Set Theory'? If you want
people to accept your beliefs as being true your going to have to provide some compelling
reason other than citing religious scriptures designed to be followed by a bunch of
barbaric illiterates. Quoting the Quran and all these other people does not prove a damn
thing, except that you know how to cut and paste with your mouse.

I would seriously like to be shown that your mythology has a basis in fact instead
of wishful thinking, but you're content to prattle on with baseless assertions.

Believing in something does not make it true. Try believing that you can fly by flapping
your arms, have as much faith as you can muster, will this create the reality that you desire?




"I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny
over the mind of man."
-- Thomas Jefferson (1800)

Edited by evolving (03/26/02 10:32 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFliquid
Back from being gone.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/18/02
Posts: 6,953
Loc: omotive
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #1382207 - 03/16/03 09:18 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Just bumped this nice old post from the good old days... Enjoy it... :grin: 


--------------------
:dancing: My latest music! :yesnod:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #1382741 - 03/17/03 04:10 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

While I can't directly prove the existance of God in a way that scientists can prove the earth is round, (God would never allow this, for a man to prove His existance)

How do you "know" this? Sounds like you just made it up on the spot.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDramamine
Stranger
Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 34
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #1384347 - 03/17/03 12:30 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Someone who wishes to discover the truth.




That is a pretty arrogant statement. I believe truth can only be found within one's self and not looked at as an "I'm right - you're wrong" type of situation.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #1384643 - 03/17/03 01:54 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

You constantly say absolutes that hold no merit, how can one discuss when your say you "know" the truth?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Swami]
    #1385565 - 03/17/03 05:40 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Shaddup... This topic is from last year.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 6 months, 9 hours
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #1385673 - 03/17/03 06:13 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Okay, this thread is too big to read through, so I'm sure a few people have pointed out some things I'm going to say but here goes.

"- The existence of the three abrahamic faiths: Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. All share very similar characteristics and teachings because the prophecies came from the same God. The births of these religions occurred centuries apart."

They came into being centuries apart, but they're really just branching off from one another. They all came from the same part of the world. Everyone knows Judaism is just an offshoot of Christianity. If you look back far enough, you'll find that Judaism is an offshoot of Islam. Or vice versa, I'm not so well versed in that history.

"God is so beyond human comprehension that all we can handle is a written word passed down from a messenger. You can put a donkey in a room with a computer for 20 years, it doesn?t mean he?ll understand the how it works and operates."

The universe is beyond comprehension. We don't understand enough to know if there is a god.

"Many atheists will argue that organized religion is simply a ?successful? cult because thousands of years ago people easily bought it. Why are there billions of Muslims and Christians today then?"

You're putting words in our mouths. There are dozens of reasons why people buy into religions, they want to believe, it gives them hope, they're gullible, they've been raised to believe that. These religions were popular, and have been passed down for generations. These religions are the biggest religions for the same reason that American culture is so big right now: they were the religions of those people who had money and power. Christianity became the official religion for the Roman empire, that caused it to be spread around the world.

"If the person denounced previous belief in nothing, and converted to Christianity as a result of this experience, he in fact did believe in God all his life, only deceived himself from seeing it in striking clarity."

What's that based on? Even if that is true, that doesn't mean god is real, that just means a lot of people believe in God. I'd have no trouble taking acid and watching a movie about Jesus, I've watched televangelists on acid, and I find them hilarious.

"For many of us, it takes a generous dose of psychedelics to get to know ourselves better. But, Something, somewhere has to know the secrets of our hearts that we are not even aware of ourselves."

It does? There's no reason to believe that. This is like saying "I have proof there's a god: there has to be a god". If you build your beliefs up so that your view of reality MUST include a god, then you'll think there has to be a god. If you free yourself of this kind of thinking, then you won't be using this kind of twisted logic.

"Many who chose not to believe in God do it out of disagreement with some of it. They do not agree with the idea of eternal torment for not believing, or that they cannot have sex with members of the same gender, so they refuse to open their hearts to the truth. "

I don't buy that for one second. The "truths" that you speak of are baseless. If this were the case those people would devise their own set of beliefs that allow them to do the things they want. Some people have done this.

A human being can convince itself that anything is the truth. Just because someone, even yourself, believes something to be the absolute truth does not make it so.

"- Physics and science. Supported in Islam.

- Evolution. Supported in Islam."

I heard some guy talking about this on TV the other day, and I had to laugh. The links they make are kind of shoddy. There are a lot of stretches. You can find whatever you want in the scriptures if you want. If some scientists came out with a new theory claiming that the universe was created when it was farted out a monkey's ass, then someone would find something in the Quran to back that up.

None of the points you've provided are really even evidence for the exitance of god.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Phluck]
    #1385821 - 03/17/03 06:57 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Thank you for contributing to this thread, Phluck. I've got the runs, so I'll make this quick (what's another year, anyway.)

They came into being centuries apart, but they're really just branching off from one another. They all came from the same part of the world. Everyone knows Judaism is just an offshoot of Christianity. If you look back far enough, you'll find that Judaism is an offshoot of Islam. Or vice versa, I'm not so well versed in that history.

You're not well versed in that history yet you can make the claim that the Abrahamic faiths are 'offshoots' of each other because they originated in roughly the same area (Judaism and Christianity originated in what is today Israel, and Islam began in what is now Saudi Arabia). You don't even seem to know the order of which each religion came yet you're so opiniated on them. The man Jesus Christ existed, and it's fairly obvious he knew something that ye know not (sorry about that).

The universe is beyond comprehension. We don't understand enough to know if there is a god.

Sorry about that: God and all Creation is beyond human comprehension. Thank you.

You're putting words in our mouths. There are dozens of reasons why people buy into religions, they want to believe, it gives them hope, they're gullible, they've been raised to believe that. These religions were popular, and have been passed down for generations. These religions are the biggest religions for the same reason that American culture is so big right now: they were the religions of those people who had money and power. Christianity became the official religion for the Roman empire, that caused it to be spread around the world.

Religion is to popular culture? Heh. People believe because they've recognized eternal love.

I heard some guy talking about this on TV the other day, and I had to laugh. The links they make are kind of shoddy. There are a lot of stretches. You can find whatever you want in the scriptures if you want. If some scientists came out with a new theory claiming that the universe was created when it was farted out a monkey's ass, then someone would find something in the Quran to back that up.

You gonna bark all day little doggie, or are you gonna bite? It is my challenge to you then, to somehow, find a verse that 'can' support that (depends how literally insane you can get, literally). The Qur'an isn't the issue here.



--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 6 months, 9 hours
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #1385876 - 03/17/03 07:13 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

"You're not well versed in that history yet you can make the claim that the Abrahamic faiths are 'offshoots' of each other because they originated in roughly the same area (Judaism and Christianity originated in what is today Israel, and Islam began in what is now Saudi Arabia)."

They originated in roughly the same area, and are also very similar.

"People believe because they've recognized eternal love."

Or because they're afraid of eternal damnation. Religion is cultural, and when it's popular, it's pop culture. To make someone believe something, you just need to sell it to them properly, it doesn't really matter whether it's a doctrine of love or of hate, you can still make tons of people believe it. Cults suceed all the time. Bizarre "alternative medicine" constantly does really well despite the fact it doesn't work at all. These smaller faiths generally fizzle out, but if they catch the public's attention the right way at the right time, they can explode, and that's all that happened with Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Buddhism and Hinduism did quite well also. Why didn't you mention them?

It's all about the sale. If Scientology hired an A-list marketing firm and started getting prime time TV spots I'd bet they'd be able to beat the shit out of Islam.


"The Qur'an isn't the issue here."

Then why did you bring it up in your post? I don't have a copy of the Quran in front of me, and I don't have years to wade through it, so I'm going to have to turn down your challenge.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSheepish
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/02/02
Posts: 10,137
Loc: Exile
Last seen: 6 years, 2 days
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #1386431 - 03/18/03 01:09 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Have you ever died?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #1387104 - 03/18/03 06:19 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Religion makes me ashamed of my fellow humans.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #1387118 - 03/18/03 06:23 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

God wonders where his surroundings came from.

God wonders how he got to his surroundings.

God wonders if there is a God, a creator of his world.

Religious paradox #76545645867934354264574568160983411


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDramamine
Stranger
Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 34
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #1387988 - 03/18/03 10:44 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shaddup... This topic is from last year.   




Excellent job backing up your statement. Have a nice day.

:grin:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Dramamine]
    #1388039 - 03/18/03 10:58 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

lol yeah.. have your views changed since last year zahir?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Strumpling]
    #1388252 - 03/18/03 12:26 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Religion makes me ashamed of my fellow humans.




Don't think too highly of yourself.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Phluck]
    #1388282 - 03/18/03 12:39 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

They originated in roughly the same area, and are also very similar.

Roughly in the same area, yes. Maybe that's because this area on earth is the 'decided' land of divine revelation. What's so similiar with each religion? God - Love - Heaven - Repentence, seems to be the general trait of each Abrahamic religion. Other than that, each religion has its semantics of worship; as Christians worship Christ, Muslims worship Allah, et cet era. Neither faiths seem to really get along with eachother. But all of them can fall into a trance of dhikr, which to me says something.

Or because they're afraid of eternal damnation. Religion is cultural, and when it's popular, it's pop culture. To make someone believe something, you just need to sell it to them properly, it doesn't really matter whether it's a doctrine of love or of hate, you can still make tons of people believe it. Cults suceed all the time. Bizarre "alternative medicine" constantly does really well despite the fact it doesn't work at all. These smaller faiths generally fizzle out, but if they catch the public's attention the right way at the right time, they can explode, and that's all that happened with Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Buddhism and Hinduism did quite well also. Why didn't you mention them?

Again, with the Pop culture Phluck. How can you generalize that people believe because of the "threat of eternal damnation" when you know very well that not every believer believes in eternal damnation? You talk like religion is some kind of carny stand that tries to sucker all the stupid saps into believing they can get something with little exertion. What's the deal with that?


--------------------

Edited by Zahid (03/18/03 12:41 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleTheHateCamel
Research &Development -DBK
Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 15,738
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #1388290 - 03/18/03 12:40 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

.

Edited by TheHateCamel (12/05/07 09:33 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: God Exists [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #1388454 - 03/18/03 01:38 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

wait now were you talking to God, or were you just talking and happened to use the word "god" as an extension of emphasis?

Edit (addition): And Zahid,

"Don't think too highly of yourself."

That's my whole point, dude. I openly admit that mankind has no clue about anything, but YOU claim to have it all figured out.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Edited by Strumpling (03/18/03 01:43 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Strumpling]
    #1388490 - 03/18/03 01:48 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I do; for myself, don't I? Again, the arrogance.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #1388500 - 03/18/03 01:51 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

for yourself? Whats this thread doing here?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleenacid
solid funk
Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 183
Re: God Exists [Re: Strumpling]
    #1388570 - 03/18/03 02:19 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

so if i believe nothing and i live my life by the pure will of chaos, to do whatever i want however i want to learn as much as i can and experience as much i can experience, be it through all the good and the BAD THINGS I MUST DO so i can fufill my life to the fullest i can

and i fail the test

because i would kill, i would lie and i would do anything to really live life the way i believe it should be lived, and that is for experience

does that mean god (the one i dont belive in) will banish me from his kingdom of eternal paradise?

because i have given no rational to why life is the way it is but rather decided to live it as it is here and i am present?

if this is so and i dont mean to start fighting words but i speak from what i really feel, if this is true then i hate god and i reject his kingdom, because if god loved me, he would understand my "lust" for life.

to many if's...

my point:

you have given no proof, you only speak, and words prove nothing, they only share your opinions

the only proof i might be able to call real proof, is if one only accepted life from the empty bucket of questions it presents and search for solid facts being the only way to form concepts about the world.

just as you see athiests like myself as sad individuals who resist changing their state of mind, let it be known, that we all think the same way of those who belive in magic and god unconditionally

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: God Exists [Re: enacid]
    #1388718 - 03/18/03 03:03 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

ahhh, enacid :smile: - welcome to the shroomery :wink: stick around :cool:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEffedS
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/15/02
Posts: 7,370
Loc: Daylight Slavings
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #1388780 - 03/18/03 03:23 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Im so sick of word "God".

In my religion everyone is "God"...

The Gaian Mind

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefalcon
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 8,046
Last seen: 5 hours, 4 minutes
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #1388861 - 03/18/03 03:57 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Speaking of areas the Abrahamic religions have in common, and it is their real weakness, a overly fond love, the kind of love you reserve for God, of real estate. The Jews have the promised land. The Christians have the Holy land. And last but certainly not least the Muslims have the hadj. It may be that God thinks that real estate is that important too. It may be that he doesn't give a shit what we think or what we do.


--------------------
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I have done it before and it never has an effect on the true believer so what is the point?



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Myyco.com APE Liquid Culture For Sale


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Dose God exist? Take a look around.
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Bavet 7,003 68 02/06/03 10:46 AM
by Strumpling
* Does God Exist? part one
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
MentalHygene 16,045 126 02/22/02 08:26 PM
by ArCh_TemPlaR
* Does God Exist? (lets get to the point!) MentalHygene 1,129 12 02/08/02 10:19 AM
by Seuss
* Why religion obscures the light of God.
( 1 2 3 4 all )
infidelGOD 4,084 79 07/03/23 03:39 PM
by Moses_Davidson
* God Cannot Exist
( 1 2 all )
jim_dewit 5,378 39 08/22/02 06:29 PM
by Xlea321
* it seems therefore, that God does not exist. whiterastahippie 1,789 12 11/11/11 02:01 AM
by thefloodbehind
* When will you all understand? There is no god!
( 1 2 3 4 ... 13 14 )
Fliquid 21,718 263 09/22/11 10:30 AM
by Cactilove
* Are you a slave to a God that doesn't exist?
( 1 2 3 all )
Larrythescaryrex 7,613 42 07/30/02 04:00 PM
by Larrythescaryrex

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
11,818 topic views. 1 members, 3 guests and 1 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.065 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 14 queries.