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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Reality and illusions and so forth...
    #689357 - 06/19/02 11:46 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

The computer simulation thread sparked this...

For reality to be an illusion (good ol' fashioned illusion, not matrix-style illusion), isn't it necessary to have a singular "creative force" (ie. God)?
I don't see how the illusion could just happen on its own. Someone/thing would have had to construct it all, so that it fits together so neatly, right? Basically, what I am getting at is this: if one doesn't believe in God (pick your flavor), then they probably wouldn't think that reality is an illusion.

This is just some tangential thought that I'm playing around with...


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Reality and illusions and so forth... [Re: Sclorch]
    #689361 - 06/19/02 11:47 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Please note that I'm not saying that all those who believe in God (pick your flavor) think that reality is an illusion.


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Offlinedeepr
the dancer

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 238
Loc: nzl
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Reality and illusions and so forth... [Re: Sclorch]
    #689385 - 06/20/02 12:13 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

what if i entertain the possibility that we are a science experiement for some higher beings apprenticeship, a study into the philosophy of greed maybe....

its sad that regular philosophy cant exercise thought on this because its too far out... im dissappointed with philosphers, its like a branch of science... where are all the crazy ideas


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Reality and illusions and so forth... [Re: Sclorch]
    #689401 - 06/20/02 12:38 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I think a creative force is inherent in consiousness and imagination, not in the physical nature of the universe. It does not matter if reality is an illusion, if it is not an illusion than what is it? Is there something that is the opposite of illusion?

The reality we experience is an illusion by definition because it is perceived.
There is no solid, objective reality. There is no color or form in reality until it enters our brains. Sound does not exist until electrical signals are sent to the brain by the ears. We are not seeing objective reality, we are seeing abstractions of the human mind.


what you're saying is that non believers are more likely to think that their reality is not an illusion. That is because they live in an illusory world where they are convinced that THEY EXPERIENCE TRUE REALITY and everyone else is trapped in an illusion.




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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Reality and illusions and so forth... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #689558 - 06/20/02 04:38 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

The reality we experience is an illusion by definition because it is perceived.
There is no solid, objective reality.


How come everybody that logs on to this board sees the exact same message that you posted? The letters and the words are the same for everyone.

Off course, interpretation will vary, but that says nothing about consensus reality.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleRevelation

 User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,130
Loc: heart cave
Re: Reality and illusions and so forth... [Re: Swami]
    #689599 - 06/20/02 05:19 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

But our emotional/intellectual reaction to the words differs from person to person. If there is a difference then there is an illusion.

I agree with infidelgod. I don't think an illusion would need to be created by god, are we not all living a personal illusion of our own? But a collective illusion, a single illusion which is experienced by all or most human beings...I think that's possible too. We are very good at deluding ourselves, perhaps this ability is more powerful than we think.


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Invisiblethe_Landotter
Gnostic Chaoist

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 340
Loc: R'lyeh
Re: Reality and illusions and so forth... [Re: Revelation]
    #689715 - 06/20/02 06:46 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

>But a collective illusion, a single illusion which is experienced by all or most human beings...

Reality is what we all agree on. Yes? haha

Frinstance, this message board. We all agree that these messages are being posted by "someone" (probably another human being) because we are familiar with the act of posting ourselves and we agree on how to post and what tool we use to post (computer) so the collective "reality" of "posting to a message board" is continually re-inforced. We all agree on what it IS.

But it is only ONE perception. It's only the most common view. I myself, the Landotter (who, you must admit if you're honest, you have no concrete data on to verify my reality) could be orbitting a distant dark-star and transmitting this "post" (which I call a "zygnopasht" incidentally) via hyperlight sub-signals generated from the mycelial booster network which coats my asteroid home. YOU DON'T KNOW FOR SURE.

But we CAN agree that I am probably pulling a fast one and posting the regular way. Sorry for the rambling - it's the ultra-telluric light... makes me crazy!


the Landotter


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Invisiblethe_Landotter
Gnostic Chaoist

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 340
Loc: R'lyeh
Re: Reality and illusions and so forth... [Re: Sclorch]
    #689746 - 06/20/02 07:02 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

"Did I really turn into a pigeon? I mean, how did it happen? Was it real? It was more like a dream."

"You always ask the same thing. When you dream, what makes you think it's not real?"

"It's a fucking dream. You can't touch it, can you?"

"Did you ever hold the hand of the man who reads the news every night on telly?

- Tom O'Bedlam and Jack Frost
from the Invisibles comic series
by Grant Morrison


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Reality and illusions and so forth... [Re: Sclorch]
    #691559 - 06/20/02 10:46 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Being limited by our perception does NOT make our reality an illusion. Besides, that would be an individual illusion... when I mentioned the phrase "good ol' fashioned", I figured you'd put two and two together and realize that I meant a collective illusion, but maybe the "not matrix-style" phrase was a distraction (I was trying to avoid arguments about the trapped-in-a-computer-simulation-world illusion). Also, let's not nitpick and throw around the non-believer/believer jargon either. Would somebody just give me an honest answer...
Question:

Is a creative force (such as God) necessary (at least initially necessary) for our reality to be a collective illusion?
Yes
No
I don't like the question, I would like to offer a slightly different question with, I think, the same goal. (Please provide a new question)




Votes accepted from (12/31/69 07:00 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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InvisibleRevelation

 User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,130
Loc: heart cave
Re: Reality and illusions and so forth... [Re: Sclorch]
    #692452 - 06/21/02 12:46 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

By collective do you mean all human beings, or just many of us?


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Reality and illusions and so forth... [Re: Sclorch]
    #692776 - 06/21/02 04:15 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

that is such a loaded question ...

you talk about a collective illusion but can you give me the alternative to living in an illusion? Is there something beyond my perceptions that make up a greater objective reality I'm not aware of? What is NOT an illusion?

When I talk about illusion, I am not talking about an external illusion that is experienced by all. If it is experienced by all, it is not illusion - it is truth.

This whole concept of "good ol' fashioned" collective illusion doesn't make sense to me because if we are COLLECTIVELY experiencing an illusion, how will we be able to tell that it is an illusion. And would there be a difference in living in a collective illusion and living in a non-illusory reality?

Just because we don't see things as it really is doesn't mean that there exists a reality where things are As it Really is..
This illusion is all we have.




Edited by infidelGOD (06/21/02 04:20 PM)


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Invisiblephrozendata
Carpal Tunnel

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/24/00
Posts: 5,015
Re: Reality and illusions and so forth... [Re: Sclorch]
    #693122 - 06/21/02 08:38 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Not matrix-style? So could we assume you mean something more like Vanilla Sky style?


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"There's only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving and that's your own self. So you have to begin there, not
outside, not on other people" - Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Reality and illusions and so forth... [Re: phrozendata]
    #693439 - 06/22/02 12:38 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I am preferential to "Outer Limits Style"...


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleXibalba
Stranger
Registered: 05/14/00
Posts: 2,114
Re: Reality and illusions and so forth... [Re: Sclorch]
    #695204 - 06/23/02 12:32 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

You construct it. I construct it. We construct it- and- last but not least- They construct it.

Reality has been evolved over eons within our brains- then taught and passed down over millenia from generation to generation.
The first process is why "the color green" is a real thing to most humans, subjectively experienced in very much the same way, and the second is why "the dollar" is a real thing to anyone who has grown up in American society.

Neither are properties of 'external reality' but both are properties of 'consensus reality.'

Have you considered that your perception that it all 'fits together so neatly' may be part of the illusion?
'why is nature so beautiful?'
Well- think about it.



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OfflineInDiCaToRgReEn
newbie
Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 47
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: Reality and illusions and so forth... [Re: Xibalba]
    #697005 - 06/23/02 08:43 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

its fairly obvious that humanity has contructed its present reality from the begining, but is that reality an illusion, is there something more real out there that we have missed, a higher reality of humans, if there was not, then we would not dream of paradise and it boggles my mind that people still feel at the effect of illusion, not the cause of it. We are just a bunch of creators really and we do this through thought, word, and action. the sooner humanity realizes this and that we can make a difference, change our world, the sooner us here on this site realize this the quicker the paradise will come.


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"oh to be a kid again, not a worry in the world except mybe the lack of bubbles in the bath tub"


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Reality and illusions and so forth... [Re: Sclorch]
    #698339 - 06/24/02 02:32 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Of course it was a loaded question... but I gave you the option to change the question. I want to know if there is a correspondence between those who think that reality is an illusion (not just a perceptual illusion due to our imperfect sensory systems; I mean a dream-like illusion- where everyone interfaces in this "dream world" most commonly referred to as reality... not that I believe this) and those who believe in a God-like force. That's all. I wanted to derive it, but no one cooperated, that's fine. This type of argument doesn't always work so well in a place like this (internet bulletin board)...


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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