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OfflineFrog
Warrior
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2322738 - 02/10/04 10:54 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I've been hoping someone would buy it and read it so there coud be some discussion of it.  Thanks.  :heart:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2323312 - 02/11/04 06:10 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, you are of course right. Assuming that God exists to prove that God exists is weak old hat. Next.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley

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Anonymous

Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: muhurgle]
    #2323319 - 02/11/04 06:16 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2323324 - 02/11/04 06:22 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I have no idea about Ped's argument, but your argument begs the question as infidelGod pointed out.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley

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Anonymous

Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: muhurgle]
    #2323326 - 02/11/04 06:24 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2323328 - 02/11/04 06:26 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, are you ignoring infidelGod perhaps? He explains it quite eloquently further up in the thread.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley

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Anonymous

Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: muhurgle]
    #2323332 - 02/11/04 06:28 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

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Anonymous

Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: muhurgle]
    #2323342 - 02/11/04 06:37 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2323348 - 02/11/04 06:42 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Hehe. Sorry, no composing, I was just out for a minute. Unignore InfidelGod and you can read his post if you want to. I don't want to be part in any game between you and him :wink:

His point is rather glaring btw.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley

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Anonymous

Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: muhurgle]
    #2323354 - 02/11/04 06:50 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

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Invisiblejpod
Stranger

Registered: 10/14/03
Posts: 107
Loc: DeeSee
Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2323491 - 02/11/04 08:46 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I understand your perspective and I think they just want the logic to be slightly rephrased. As you have already acknowledged, your logic is assumative based on the presupposition that the universe was existant prior to the first conscious man.

If matter must be conceived to exist and if the universe existed before conscious man, there must have been another consciousness to conceive the universe for it to have existed.

He is saying your logic only proves that there could have been no universe before the first conscious man, unless you give arise to a need for a pre-existant conciousness (ie. assumption that the universe did exist before man).

Of course, even if the universe did not exist before the first conscious man, according the this theory of existance a consciousness must have existed to conceive of the conscious man in the first place, which then feeds into your logic. Either this theory of existance is wrong, or the pre-consciousness which conceived of the conscious man in the first place is infinite and therefore not subject to needing to be pre-conceived.

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OfflineFrog
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2323529 - 02/11/04 09:12 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I GET IT NOW!!!

I think you're right! That's it! What a brilliant conclusion! Who's is it, anyways??? Yours? Peds?

Of course if the universe already existed, someone must have created it. God is the only consciousness that has been around since the "beginning".

Okay, where is Ped's discussion? Is that in the "existence" thread? The thread that I still haven't read? I wish people would stop adding to it. It's becoming quite intimidating to open.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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InvisibleTrueBrode
Stranger

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 287
Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2323574 - 02/11/04 09:36 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

This just sounds like the same old: "something can't come from nothing" debate, which- I thought- has already been proven wrong, as matter can be created in a vacuum.

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OfflineFrog
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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2323597 - 02/11/04 09:45 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

But someone had to be around to create the matter, right?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Invisiblejpod
Stranger

Registered: 10/14/03
Posts: 107
Loc: DeeSee
Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Frog]
    #2323633 - 02/11/04 09:58 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Not create the matter per se, but rather in this scenario simply the matter must have been comprehended in order to exist.

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InvisibleTrueBrode
Stranger

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 287
Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Frog]
    #2323819 - 02/11/04 11:00 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

No, that's the point of the vacuum theory- which last I heard they're having problems with- that matter can spontaneously form in a vacuum of nothing.

JPOD:

How come the matter has to be comprehended in order to exist? I don't understand this point. Are you talking about some consciousness outside of the matter observing it (because Quantum Theory says matter has to be observed to exist in a certain perception), or the matter having consciousness of itself?

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Invisiblejpod
Stranger

Registered: 10/14/03
Posts: 107
Loc: DeeSee
Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2323900 - 02/11/04 11:27 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Mr. Mushrooms speaking within the terms of the theories contained within Ped's posts on existence based in this thread:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...sb=5&o=&fpart=1

In very reductive terms, it says that something does not exist without being apprehended by an external consciousness. You should definitely read the reasoning behind this, Ped explains his thoughts very well.

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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: jpod]
    #2324046 - 02/11/04 12:17 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

here's what I saw at least, I hope this doesn't become repetative, but in order for me to respond, I think a quick review of the thread (for myself) is in order. these are snippets and only to be taken as such



ped said in the beginning



"Ultimate truth tells us that nothing exists independent of mind."



in which mm responded with a quote from plato..



"Anything which possesses any sort of power to affect another, or to be affected by another, if only for a single moment, however trifling the cause and however slight the effect, has real existence."



ped used the examples of coffee. he analysed it down the the molecules and then said this



"What if we removed just one carbon bond? Is this atom ortho-terphenyl? Of course it is not. It must follow then, that we can remove the rest of the carbon atoms, because none of them are themselves ortho-terphenyl. But before we even remove half of them, our molecule has disintegrated! Why is this happening? Because the existence of a molecule is a phenomona existing in dependence upon parts.



If a molecule, or any object were inherently existent, it must exist independently of it's parts. An object that exists in dependence upon parts can only exist inherently with the presence of an apprehending conciousness to assign it inherent existence. If we divide all the parts upon which an object is dependent, we find that there is no object remaining at all. This means that even the molecules, atoms, and energies which comprise our universe are not themselves inherently existent."



trendal then said "it may not be a "coffee cup" without my consciousness but it still would be a physical object (I think).



ped replied with



"I extended this demonstration into the realm of fundamental particles, including quarks, electrons and so forth. These supposed elementary particles exist in the same way as the conventional objects that we interact with: in dependence upon other phenomenon. For an object or elementary partical to have inherent physical existence, it must exist discretely and totally seperate of all other phenomena."



so what I gather from this is that in order for ideas and physical objects to exist, it must be seperate from everything else. the more we break things down, we only come up with smaller parts of a large puzzle.



alan stone's question cam up was



"So you view external stimuli as the mind's projection of received energy? A hologram created by the brain using neurological input?"



and ped said..



Something similar to this, yes. "Loud" and "Bright" are opinions, but we do not experience "Loud" and "Bright" as though we had an opinion of them. If somebody drops a vase and we hear a sound that disturbs us, we think "That was a very loud sound." But if we're at a rock concert and dissatisfied with the quality of the audio, even sounds many times greater in volume than a fallen vase may be dissatisfactory, and we may think "The sound is much too quiet." We experience either of these circumstances as though that's how they actually were, ignoring the reality that either of these are phenomena dependent upon a circumstantial basis.



the circumstantial basis is what I look at. this to me shows how our mind does in fact shape our own reality and this is how we experience.



i found this to be helpful to me as well



strumpling asked-



What has happened here? Has objective reality changed since the creator is no longer around? is that possible?



ped-



No, it is not possible. An objective reality must be an unchanging reality. Since there is no unchanging reality, there is no objective reality. Reality is entirely subjective.



ped mentioned the koan if the tree falls in the woods...



here's where I got stuck when ped said



"As I had said earlier: Existence serves as the condition upon which conciousness thrives, and conciousness serves as the condition upon which existence thrives.



We seem to have no qualms with the notion of removing concious subjects from the plain of existence, and imagining that existence would continue on into endless time. However, if we were to contemplate removing the existential plain from experiential conciousness, we encounter a thick and hazy fog. It is unfathomable. Why this double standard?



so now we come to a point where the mechanism or the way consciousness needs to be defined.



ped then says



"It is the self-grasping mind which encounters an object and informs us that it exists apart from us, that it has been "waiting" for us to encounter it. Boundries in space are equally as necessary in time if we are to perpetuate the deliciously seductive habit of self-grasping. Space and time too are dependent upon mind -- but not the self-grasping mind that we so readily identify with. Boundries and distinctions are what depend on the self-grasping mind. Dissolve the self-grasping mind, and we dissolve boundries and distinctions.



this is all in support for this...



"As ordinary human beings, our experience is mistaken because we hold two mistaken views:



1. The mistaken view that objects exist discretely from eachother.

2. The mistaken view that objects exist from their own side, discretely from the self.



These two mistaken views validate eachother. If our experience informs us that there are many unique physical entities existing upon a constant plain of space and time, then it follows that we are also a unique entity existing discretely among other unique entities. By the same token, if our experience informs us that we are a totally independent entity existing apart from all other objects, it follows that all of these objects must exist entirely apart from eachother.



If we were to reform either of these views, the other view must reorient itself to support our new experience. For example, if we were to reach an understanding that all phenomena are only nominally distinct and are entirely interconnected and interdependent, we would find ourselves in conflict with the view that we ourselves exist discretely, independently. This is logically detailed, step by step, with the following five points



"2. Through investigation, we discover that all phenomenon are dependent upon other phenomenon.

3. If all phenomenon are dependent upon other phenomenon, no observed phenomenon can be truly distinct.

4. By opposing the appearance of boundries between observed phenomenon, the consequence must be the dissolution of the boundries between self and other.

5. Therefore, if we conceive of boundries between self and other, the consequence must be the appearance of boundries between observed phenomena."



so there is a unity between all things...



which leads me to here mm



"If, through investigation, we obliterate the existence of objects through the application of various reasonings, yet continue to conceive of ourselves as inherently existent, we encounter the intellectual extreme which concludes nothing to exist at all. Though, if in conjunction with our investigation we continously conclude thruogh the same reasoning that objects cannot exist inherently, we must understand that there is an intimate relationship between the existence of an object and the presence of apprehending conciousness, an observer. This is the pivot upon which inherent existence and non-existence swing.



fianlly ped says



"phenomena existing in dependence upon basis of imputation, and therefore cannot inherently exist."



if this is so then how could there not be a god? is my reasoning flawed?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: kaiowas]
    #2324119 - 02/11/04 12:36 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

If a molecule, or any object were inherently existent, it must exist independently of it's parts.

There is one flaw.

Another is that existence depends upon a naming convention. If all humans suddenly died from a viral epidemic, a chair might no longer be a chair, but it's height, weight and mass would remain unchanged even without someone here to verify that data. I seriously doubt that objects disappear when I leave the room and reappear when I enter.

Does ANYONE here TRULY believe that when we see the light from a supernova for the first time, that it simultaneously came into being just because we are now observing it? Or that it actually exploded hundeds of millions of years ago (and existed if even not called a supernova) and we are just now seeing the light from it?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: kaiowas]
    #2324134 - 02/11/04 12:39 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I don't see how this can be considered evidence for the existence of a god.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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