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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineLiquidSmoke
My title's cooler than yours DBK

Registered: 09/04/01
Posts: 25,267
Loc: S.A.G.G.Y.B.A.L.L.S.
Last seen: 6 months, 29 days
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: jim_dewit]
    #834557 - 08/21/02 10:12 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

=Ahh, but religion tells us also one more thing about God. He is all knowing, he knows what we will do, what we have done, and what we are doing this very moment.=




Wrong.



The Bible Speaks of God having 'plans' for people. It never says God directly knows the future. It speaks of people following plans, or falling out of them.


That is free will. Falling in and out of whatever 'fate' was there originally.

I think you're defining free-will incorreclty in terms of religious diety. Free will on earth is defined from the heavens as giving a person the choice to believe, support, or turn against God.

In heaven, such a free will does not exist. Because, well, you're in heaven, with God. And you know for a fact he exists.


(keep in mind, this is ALL from what I hear at church, don't start anti-religion mobilizing against me or anything)


--------------------
"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back


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Anonymous

Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: jim_dewit]
    #834574 - 08/21/02 10:23 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Bungalow bungalow snip sniditty sniditty.

Cheerios,


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Anonymous

Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: jim_dewit]
    #834830 - 08/22/02 03:07 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Just a gentle reminder






Edited by Shroomism (08/22/02 03:08 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: ]
    #834898 - 08/22/02 04:54 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Just a "gentle" reminder (to those that believe in aliens) that some of those beautiful supernovae probably wiped out thousands of inhabitted worlds, putting an end to more than a few, million-year old civilizations. Oh, well...

Can you feel the cosmic love?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: Swami]
    #834902 - 08/22/02 04:57 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Creation and destruction, it's a beautiful cycle


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: ]
    #834915 - 08/22/02 05:06 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Except when it is you and yours caught in the destructive spin cycle...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: Swami]
    #835038 - 08/22/02 06:12 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

We all die somehow, might as well be a supernova.


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Anonymous

Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: ]
    #835434 - 08/22/02 09:28 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Absolutely beautiful pictures, Shroomism.

They remind me of a man that had prayed to have God reveal Himself to him. He told a Christian that he had prayed numerous times and it didn't change anything. The Christian told him to go out into the yard at night and look up into the stars and ask God to reveal something to him. The guy did and reported back. The Christian asked him, "Well, how did it go?" The guy said, "I felt like a fool."

Some revelation, huh?

Cheers,


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OfflineIni
daughter of theyew- tree

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 102
Loc: Switzerland
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: jim_dewit]
    #835538 - 08/22/02 10:31 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

maybe it is just a bloodcurdling theory, but it' s the way I see this thing...

It was not god who created man, it was man that created god. If one says, god is nothing but a product of human imagination, I think he is damn' right. Human imagination is a power that is underestimated very often. If many, many people are together in a church, a temple or a stadium, praying and singing, they create a strong energy that may become autonomus entity. Even one human being can create such a thing. Shamans for example, have their own sprits. Most shamans don 't even know that they created them, they think they found them or so.

So, if you think you need a god, believe in one that is allready created, or create one for yourself. And if you want to live as an atheist, just deny the existence of any god.

Sure you want to know if I believe in god. Yes, I do. I believe in every god. These are the ones I worship the most:

1.a self-created beech tree godess and a self created yew tree godess
2.Mary, the mother of Jesus, she is a symbol for mercy
3.Shiva, killing the deamons with his trident
4.Cernunnos, a celtic god of growth
5.Ostara, a german spring-godess
6.Lucifer, he negates everything



Some of you might call me a heretic now, but I don' t care!


--------------------
Remain in Light
Greez Ini


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Anonymous

Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: jim_dewit]
    #835561 - 08/22/02 10:55 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

Two possible universes exist:

1. One without a God
2. One with a God





You forgot the most simple possibility of all.. God is the universe.. Omnipresent and eternal..


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Offlinemirror_saw
journeyman
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: PotSmokinHippie]
    #835568 - 08/22/02 10:59 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

According to Christianity, Catholicism, God is the creator of all good and evil (I think its in psalm 43:13), so in that sense he is responsible.

"Christian philosophy has uniformly attributed moral and physical evil to the action of created free will. Man has himself brought about the evil from which he suffers by transgressing the law of God. Evil is in created things under the aspect of mutability, and possibility of defect, not as existing per se. The evil from which man suffers is, however, the condition of good, for the sake of which it is permitted." (Catholic Encyclopedia)

As I understand it, the orthodox view is that evil is permitted by God but never created by God.


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Offlinepostalboy
I'm not myfucking khaki's!
Registered: 06/07/02
Posts: 228
Loc: My tiny corner of the pad...
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: mirror_saw]
    #835587 - 08/22/02 11:12 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

As I understand it, the orthodox view is that evil is permitted by God but never created by God.

But this makes no sense. If god is omnipotent and infinite and he created the entire universe, then he created all that is in the universe. This includes evil. If before god started fucking with stuff there was no evil, then he makes worlds, people, etc and there is evil, he CREATED it. If he didn't create evil, if man created evil, then god isn't as all-powerful as everyone thinks. This would mean that man is just as powerful as god and his pathetic creationistic powers (I know that its not a word but see I created it. I am GOD)

Now this isn't pointed at you mirror saw, you stated that that was the orthodox view so I am assuming that because of how it was worded that it isn't your view.


--------------------
"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.


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Offlinemirror_saw
journeyman
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: PotSmokinHippie]
    #835648 - 08/22/02 11:39 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

However to disprove god, you need to look towards mathematical reasoning.

Chaos theory is the study of nonlinear systems dependent on initial conditions, where a small change in initial conditions can cause a drastic change in the outcome.

Now, I'm all sure we've heard the stuff "the lord works in mysterious ways" and I'm sure, that through all religions, this statement can be deduced to be true. So in reality, wouldn't god be a chaotic system?

One that through analysis we should be able with some certainty predict?


A summary of your reasoning given as a M-P/S-M/S-P syllogism.
(M=middle, S=subject, P=predicate)

Major premise:

Chaotic behavior can be modeled

Minor premise:

God's intervention is chaotic ("God moves in mysterious ways")

Conlusion:

God's intervention can be modeled (if God exists)

The error is that the middle term (the term that does not occur in the conclusion) which in this case is "Chaotic" is being used in a different sense in each premise.

Your logic is known as a Four-Term Fallacy.

Not all behavior that appears chaotic can be modeled, and the intervention of God in the world would by definition have to be non-causal. If it were purely by natural process or by the work of man then how is God involved?




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Offlinemirror_saw
journeyman
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: postalboy]
    #835666 - 08/22/02 11:48 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If he didn't create evil, if man created evil, then god isn't as all-powerful as everyone thinks.

I don't think that there would be that problem, as man only has free will because it's given by God. Man could not create evil if it were not permitted by God, but this is of course not to say that God wants us to be evil.

(in orthodox Christianity)


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Offlinemirror_saw
journeyman
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: postalboy]
    #835776 - 08/22/02 12:41 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I am assuming that because of how it was worded that it isn't your view.

your assumption is wrong, I don't believe God is responsible for evil.


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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 506
Loc: Between a rock and a hard...
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: jim_dewit]
    #835793 - 08/22/02 12:47 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You have to look at God as standing outside of time. He resides in the "eternal present"

i.e. If I am waving my hand at you and you are witnessing it then you can say matter of factly that I am waving my hand. You knowing this for a fact hasn't changed the idea that I have free will.

God sees all event in this way. He knows matter of factly everything that I have done, am doing, will do but he sees it in the eternal present. So him knowing these things about "my" future (not his) doesn't negate my free will.

Imagine us as living life like a movie from start to finish. Imagine God as having the whole film in his hands and able to see every frame at the same time. (don't over induldge in this analogy.....unlike a film we are not locked into our choices).


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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Offlinejayson
earthling
Male
Registered: 08/07/02
Posts: 52
Loc: Vic Australia
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: chemkid]
    #836533 - 08/22/02 06:09 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Ever herd of life flashing before your eyes at death. Well this is it, your at the point of death. Life is but an instant. Its slowed down so it can be experienced. (The illusion of time.) This is why everything is predestined.
As far as ever really having free will goes, look at the universe. Its a perfect mechanism, precise there are no mistakes. And since we're part of the universe maybe free will is an illusion also?
People ask, if there is a god then why is there so much pain and suffering?----- Obviously it must be necessary. God is not vengeful, there is no hell, there is no devil, although there are entity's that could be perceived as devils, angles, demons, and gods. God's creation, the universe must be governed by laws. That is, god would be limited by natural laws beyond our understanding. Suffering is necessary, otherwise it would not be. e.g.: If you build a house you must first lay foundations, then the frame etc. During which you labour (suffer) in order to get it finished. Or in most cases labour at work to get the money to pay for a house. (Most of the time that kind of suffering is worse than physical suffering.) You can't just say abbra cadabra and then you have a house.
When we talk about god which god are we talking about, the god, or the lesser gods. Lesser gods being entity's also beyond our understanding. (ET's etc.) Its these entity's I believe that have shaped mankind, and at least in the beginning the religious beliefs that have become so messed up, dogmatic, and out dated. It is more than probable the these entity's are our creator. Who can deny this at least as a possibility.


Edited by jayson (08/22/02 06:12 PM)


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: Sclorch]
    #836680 - 08/22/02 07:05 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Firstoff, believing in a God that determines anything other than the initial act of creation IS believing in determinism (no free will). I don't care how you try to argue this. If God gave us free will, then he has no control over anything now... and it would be unfair to judge us (if he did, he'd be a dick and, once again, he can fuck off).

God does not reveal evidence of His existence to man, rather the proof is in the world around you.

Behold! In the creation
Of the heavens and the earth;
In the alternation
Of the Night and the Day;
In the sailing of the ships
Through the Ocean
For the profit of mankind;
In the rain which God
Sends down from the skies
And the life which He gives therewith
To an earth that is dead,
In the beasts of all kinds
That He scatters
Through the earth;
In the change of the winds,
And the clouds which they
Trail like their slaves
Between the sky and the earth
Here indeed are Signs
For a people that are wise.


2:164

Life is like this: You enter the world, you receive the word of your Creator, who demands that you obey Him, and believe in Him regardless what ideas conflict with that faith, because the world is full of the deception of Satan. Be it evolution, the idea that faith is the death of a thinking mind, the idea that God exists as a flowing energy, or reincarnation. Faith in the Unseen is an important part of surrendering to the true God, who happens to judge the evil ones of His creations. Are you seriously willing to take the risk of dying in disbelief? You were born into a rather chaotic existence. There is established faiths in the Creator. Not one, not two, but three faiths that call for mankind to believe and repent to God. You hear believers arguing God's existence through experience. Does it make you think, maybe this is a possibility. All the abrahamic faiths speak of Hell. Have you ever once considering Hell to be a reality?

The life of this world
Is alluring to those
Who reject faith,
And they scoff at those
Who believe.
But for the righteous
Will be above them
On the Day of Resurrection;
For God bestows His abundance
Without measure
On whom He will.


2:212

Those who purchase
Unbelief at the price
Of faith -
Not the least harm
Will they do to God,
But they will have
A grievous punishment.


2:177

The Hereafter is beyond the opinion of disbelievers. If you believe, and experience God, you will truly understand why the faithful are the way they are. You will see the benefit of surrendering to your Lord.


--------------------


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: Zahid]
    #836815 - 08/22/02 08:07 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Listen Zahid...

You can believe whatever you want to believe, but if you're here to convert us merely by asserting some "truth," then you need to wake up. I don't have time for any more bullshit. I understand your faith better than you do... you don't want truth, no, you just want your side to be right. Until you realize that the reed is more powerful than the brick wall, you'll forever find resistence to your beliefs.

I've met many illiterate people who are more forgiving than yourself.
Maybe you should think about that before you post again.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: Sclorch]
    #836869 - 08/22/02 08:29 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Zahid was thinking about it, that's why he said "maybe it's a possibility". To be honest Zahid seems a lot more open minded than you.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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