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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: ]
    #1148191 - 12/17/02 08:54 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

so we have a difference in opinion concerning the definition of God.

people's definitions are way more unconventional nowadays... I'm fine with that - have fun with God


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: ]
    #1148192 - 12/17/02 08:54 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

C'mon Max. Are you being serious? That's like saying the tooth fairy exists because we have teeth.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1148209 - 12/17/02 08:59 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

No, you misunderstood me. To me, existence is God. All that exists came from something, and the source is what I consider God. "All that is", whatever you want to call it.


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: ]
    #1148222 - 12/17/02 09:04 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Gotcha.  God = Existence.  That makes more sense, but it sort of makes the term "God" irrelevant.

If "all that exists came from something", and if God exists, then God must have come from something.  I'm sure if ?God? was more than existence alone, and had the ability to think, he'd be pondering the same question about himself as we are about ourselves - "where did I come from?"  :grin:


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


Edited by GoBlue! (12/17/02 09:26 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1148397 - 12/17/02 10:11 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think your definition of death is very important to how you perceive the world.

Agreed, but your negative or positive perception of death does nothing to change its nature. An afterlife does or does not exist independent of your viewpoint.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1148466 - 12/17/02 11:00 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Well, you said you "believe that the traditional idea of death and destruction really doesn't exist".

Yes, I did say THAT. That isn't the same as, "I don't mind if you murder someone I love".

I guess I'm having a difficult time trying to understand the point you are trying to make. I completely agree with you that matter goes on forever, but I don't understand why that should make me feel better about death. Should I be happier knowing that my death will bring new life to worms? Isn't that what you implied when you said 'any destruction can also be viewed as creation."

I think I see where we are not communicating. I mean that like matter our "spirit" (call it what you will) goes on too. I am saying both go on, not just the physical but the spiritual.

I think what you were trying to do (correct me if I'm wrong) is to draw a parallel between matter's continued existence and the soul's.

100% correct. That is EXACTLY what I am trying to do.


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Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1148493 - 12/17/02 11:10 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You can't push the burden of proof back onto the "objectioner."

Why not? Who made that rule? Also, "person B" asked "person A" to prove something, A is demanding proof that God does exist so why is it not okay for B to demand proof that God doesn't???

Basically I guess what it comes down to is that when people say "There is a God" they are making a claim that has absolutely NO support

I agree. However, I would say this, they have as much evidence as the Atheist does.

When somebody makes a claim that something EXISTS, and is asked to prove it, replying with "well you can't prove it DOESN'T exist" is kind of against social rules

What social rules are these? Who said there was one and only one way to have a debate? Besides, we are talking about God here, "proper procedure" for how to debate God seems rather pointless, in my opinion.

See I could make the claim that you are completely insane and never have any idea whats going on ever. You could say something like "hahaa thats bullshit.." and I could say "prove its not true. prove you're not a complete loon." thats just a bullshit situation - I should have to prove that you're crazy, not the other way around - after-all I made the claim. That being said, I don't believe you're crazy I was just using that as example.

I think this story proves my point as well. Just because you can't prove something doesn't mean it isn't true. I can't prove God is real, but it can't be disproved either.


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Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Swami]
    #1148506 - 12/17/02 11:13 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Agreed, but your negative or positive perception of death does nothing to change its nature. An afterlife does or does not exist independent of your viewpoint.

Also agreed. I was talking about how we look at Death, not how Death looks at us.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1148531 - 12/17/02 11:20 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe all religions are correct for those who believe them. I mean, maybe people will go to a different dimension according to what religion they believe? Like manifest destany or something- you do good and believe you will go to heaven like a good little christian and then your afterlife is the 'christian heaven dimension'.

Just a thought.  :tongue: 


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1148699 - 12/17/02 12:18 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I mean that like matter our "spirit" (call it what you will) goes on too. I am saying both go on, not just the physical but the spiritual.

That's what I thought you were saying. My point is that if our spirit follows a parallel path with our matter, then as your matter changes from ?Shroomalicious? to worms, so too will your soul will change from a ?Shroomalicious? soul to a worm soul. Personally, I?d rather my soul stay ?GoBlue!? forever, and if that goes away I couldn?t care less if the soul itself went on forever.

If, as I believe it is, our true nature is spirit not body and we know that our body can be part of the creation/destruction system of continual existence then it could be assumed that our spirit could do the same.

I never actually understood why you believe this assumption to be true, but I?m going along with it for the sake of discussion.

I was talking about how we look at Death, not how Death looks at us.

How we look at death is imaginary. We can look at death any way we like. How death looks at us is real. Looking at death a certain way can make you feel a whole lot better about it, but it won?t change what will actually happen.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Murex]
    #1148757 - 12/17/02 12:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe all religions are correct for those who believe them.

Na, that'd be too convenient.  I mean, in that case you'd just believe in the religion that was most convenient for you.  I'd believe in a religion where I can behave anyway I like on earth, and I'll still have the ultimate nirvana to look forward to after I die.  Ya, that's it!  That's my new religion!!!  :cool: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: ]
    #1148858 - 12/17/02 01:14 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Nice discussion.  Polite, intelligent, and interesting. :smile:

You guys are doing a great job!


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Offlinedjamor
Stranger

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 95
Loc: rocky mountains
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1149048 - 12/17/02 02:18 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"hmmm...I find what you say intriqueing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter! "

Thanks for posting such a thought-provoking thread! I agree with a lot of what you said, but where do you go with that philosophy? Teleologically (looking to the end result) speaking, I mean. If such philosophy alleviates your fear of death, then more power to ya! If it leads you to be sitting in your arm-chair oblivious and uncaring of what's going on in the world (because "ultimately it doesn't matter") then that's something different. GoBlue had a point, someone who loses a loved one (thru violence or otherwise) shouldn't feel bad according to that philosophy, but simply mourn the loss of the companionship, comradery and spiritual union that that being provided on a daily basis.

I think many people are too sure of science. And no, the alternative is not to reject science altogether. Remember, scientists often 'correct' previous scientific 'fact' only to be 'corrected' themselves later down the road. Realize that science is (or should be) the on-going search for truth, then scientic 'law' becomes 'the best theory', not 'scientific fact'. An open mind is a terrible thing to close, especially in the name of science.

You're theory also leaves out the big question; "why?". But that's ok, most theories do.
Spirituality attempts to answer why, and often succeeds, although that answer is often considered subjective by others. We will probably never agree on why the universe exists, but that's ok, I don't think life would be fun if we had all the answers. But don't take that to mean we shouldn't ask the questions.

"Maybe all religions are correct for those who believe them. I mean, maybe people will go to a different dimension according to what religion they believe? Like manifest destany or something- you do good and believe you will go to heaven like a good little christian and then your afterlife is the 'christian heaven dimension'. -Just a thought. "
Good thought, Murex! There's many implications to that.
I personally believe in one god with infinite faces, not defined or confined by the books written by man. I believe that god is neither man nor woman, god is god. To me god is everything that was, is, or ever will be. god is chaos and order; indeed, god is the universe. god is why a molecule can exist; why a proton is attracted to an electron. In essence, god is. And admittedly, god is "that which we are unable to understand".
God, however- God is the christian (or other organized religions') book-based interpretation of god. That's my take on it, and yeah, it's a capital letter difference, in case you didn't catch that. In my opinion, talking about and appreciating god is worthwhile, but if you're gonna preach the "word of God" - keep it to yourselves, your self-righteous crap is fucking up this world.

And death? Death is change, change exists...so death exists. It's just not understood.


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1149072 - 12/17/02 02:26 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I mean, in that case you'd just believe in the religion that was most convenient for you. I'd believe in a religion where I can behave anyway I like on earth, and I'll still have the ultimate nirvana to look forward to after I die. Ya, that's it! That's my new religion!!!

Have you heard of christianity?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: djamor]
    #1149084 - 12/17/02 02:31 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I wasn't meaning to preach. I really don't believe what I posted- it was just a thought to get some gears turning.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: djamor]
    #1149427 - 12/17/02 04:11 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for posting such a thought-provoking thread!

Thank you for the compliment and especially for reading it.

If it leads you to be sitting in your arm-chair oblivious and uncaring of what's going on in the world (because "ultimately it doesn't matter") then that's something different.

However, I didn't say that. I said specifically that it isn't that it doesn't matter, death matters it just isn't what many think it is. That is all I said. Death matters, it just isn't the end of everything.

GoBlue had a point, someone who loses a loved one (thru violence or otherwise) shouldn't feel bad according to that philosophy, but simply mourn the loss of the companionship, comradery and spiritual union that that being provided on a daily basis.

That isn't what I said at all. All I said was death wasn't the end of existence, I NEVER said I don't mind if I lose a companion or I don't mind if someone kills my family. I just said death isn't the end. According to my philosophy you can definitely feel bad when someone dies, where did I say you couldn't feel bad if someone you love dies? My opinion is, death is a big change, and those changes can be traumatic and you DO lose a companion, but it isn't goodbye forever.

I think many people are too sure of science. And no, the alternative is not to reject science altogether.

Practically the whole basis of what I wrote was how I thought science and spirituality are best combined. Where did I say we should do away with science? I don't think that and I don't believe I ever said that.

Realize that science is (or should be) the on-going search for truth, then scientic 'law' becomes 'the best theory', not 'scientific fact'.

Much agreed. Very much!

You're theory also leaves out the big question; "why?".

My theory is that the universe is here, it has always been here and will always be here. It was never created and can never be destroyed, so the "Why?" question is irrelevant, in my opinion. The universe wasn't created to prove a point (for a purpose), it wasn't created at all so there is no "why?".

In the words of my idle Neil Peart - "'Why are we here? I finally decided it was the wrong question...The real question ought to be 'What can we do about it?'"

That IS NOT saying that pondering why we are here is stupid, or ill advised, it is just the philosophy of "Why are we here?" is a fruitless question (and one we may not even be able to answer) and that "What can we do about it?" is much more productive. All a matter of opinion of course.

IMO, the only answers to the "why" question are ones we create. Some might say, "Well that is depressing". I don't see why, it gives us freedom to make up our own "whys"...and besides, who says our own "whys" are not important enough?


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


Edited by Shroomalicious (12/17/02 04:15 PM)


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Offline3eyedgod
trippinkid

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 684
Loc: Far away and very near
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1149534 - 12/17/02 04:53 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

IMO, the only answers to the "why" question are ones we create. Some might say, "Well that is depressing". I don't see why, it gives us freedom to make up our own "whys"...and besides, who says our own "whys" are not important enough?

I agree, ditto on the science

If it leads you to be sitting in your arm-chair oblivious and uncaring of what's going on in the world (because "ultimately it doesn't matter") then that's something different.

However, I didn't say that. I said specifically that it isn't that it doesn't matter, death matters it just isn't what many think it is. That is all I said. Death matters, it just isn't the end of everything.

GoBlue had a point, someone who loses a loved one (thru violence or otherwise) shouldn't feel bad according to that philosophy, but simply mourn the loss of the companionship, comradery and spiritual union that that being provided on a daily basis.

That isn't what I said at all. All I said was death wasn't the end of existence, I NEVER said I don't mind if I lose a companion or I don't mind if someone kills my family. I just said death isn't the end. According to my philosophy you can definitely feel bad when someone dies, where did I say you couldn't feel bad if someone you love dies? My opinion is, death is a big change, and those changes can be traumatic and you DO lose a companion, but it isn't goodbye forever.

I think many people are too sure of science. And no, the alternative is not to reject science altogether.

Practically the whole basis of what I wrote was how I thought science and spirituality are best combined. Where did I say we should do away with science? I don't think that and I don't believe I ever said that.

I don't mean to offend or sound like an ass but, I don't think djamor was implying that you said or beleived these things.  You seem to get awfuly defensive...unneccisarly, in many of your replys. 

Hey, I could be wrong  not trying to offend  :wink:   


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: Murex]
    #1150018 - 12/17/02 08:18 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I wasn't meaning to preach.

I don't think anyone took it that way, buddy.  However, under Christianity, I'm told that I'm bound for hell, since I don't believe in God.  Although I otherwise live a more "Christian" life than most Christians.  God is an asshole, ain't he?  :wink: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1151825 - 12/18/02 01:04 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think I got aggravated. I guess this is all writing and so it depends so much on the reader and what s/he interprets and not the writer and what s/he meant. In other words, I see where you are coming from and what you mean but no I was not angry.

I repeated what I had said many times because, no matter how many times I said them the FULL idea was not getting through. I am fine with laying blame on an inadequate explanation rather than do what some might do and blame it on a "stupid reader", its probably my fault so I don't mean to treat the reader in a mean or disrespective way. However, that is why I reexplained myself so carefully. I didn't call anyone any names or say they were stupid, or they just didn't get it it or anything like that, just explained my point of view more clearly. At least, I hope that is all I did.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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Anonymous

Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1152079 - 12/18/02 02:45 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

How come you don't think it's right to grieve a loved one? I think that's pretty cold hearted.


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