Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery

Sporeworks
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]
God Cannot Exist
    #832807 -

So heres a little theory I came up with a while back. It brings together a couple concepts, and makes some basic assumptions. It isnt a perfect theory, but then, what theory is. And its not something I necessarly live by, but its interesting none the less.

Two possible universes exist:

1. One without a God
2. One with a God

If 1 is the case, I am right, and God does not exist. End of discussion. Lets examine possibility #2.

In almost all religions, God does not intervene in human affairs. This is both convinient, as it leaves no evidence of Gods existance, but it is also necessary (read on for explaination).

To my knowledge, religion does not ask why God created humans (maybe he was bored), but they will tell you that he loves all of us, we are all his children, etc etc...

But, for all his glory and power, God cannot interfere. To interfere in any way, would be to rob humans of free will. And that is Gods ultimate fear. God doesnt want us to love him because he made it so (God isnt a puppetere), he wants us to love him and believe in him out of our own free will.

Ahh, but religion tells us also one more thing about God. He is all knowing, he knows what we will do, what we have done, and what we are doing this very moment.

And that is the crux of the problem. Gods very existance robs humans of free will. If God knows that I what I will have for breakfast tomorow, or who I will fall in love with, then do I really have a choice in the matter? It is set in stone! We have no free will, Gods omnipotence stands in the way of the only thing he ever wanted, to be loved, out of free will.

When God exists, he plays every actor in the play, he is every prop, and he is the audience. God is so terribly alone he would rather not exist than to continue this sham. So what does he do? Well, he denies his own existance. Out of love for us, and out of utter lonelyness, God makes himself null...

Whether God exists, or ever did, I do not know, but Ill tell you this, the "life" of a diety would be a hell beyond my comprehension. =P

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: jim_dewit]
    #832872 -

What if nature created the human brain to have a spiritual "god" component in the same way it created a "hunger" component? Gods seem to be a universal feature of all human groups, perhaps it fulfills an innate need in human beings.

I think there's a big difference between "God" and organised religion. The bible isn't the literal word of God so we're basically going on some guys interpretation of God is. The simple way is to have your own experience of God and make up your own mind.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: jim_dewit]
    #833271 -

You haven't proved that god dosen't exist (and I agree with you, he dosen't) all you've proved is that in certain religions with those views about got (christian, catholic) there is a logical fallacy in their reasoning. And it is interesting indeed.

However to disprove god, you need to look towards mathematical reasoning.

Chaos theory is the study of nonlinear systems dependent on inital conditions, where a small change in inital conditions can cause a drastic change in the outcome (to use the popular model, a butterfly flapping its wings in china can cause a tornado in texas). These systems are unpredictable, but have an underlying order, and we can predict where these systems may go.

Lorenz found equations that could predict the movement of a "leaky waterwheel" in which based on inital conditions, it would turn one way, stop, and turn another way in an unpredictable fashion, he found that three systems of differental equations could predict the x, y and z trajectories of the waterwheel:

dx
--- = sigma(x-y)
dt

dy
--- = rx-y-zx
dt

dz
--- = xy-bz
dt

r, b, sigma are the initial conditions.

Now, I'm all sure we've heard the stuff "the lord works in mysterous ways" and I'm sure, that through all religions, this statement can be deduced to be true. Events like september 11th, volcanoes dessimating pompeii and herculaneum, all unpredictable and done by gods. So in reality, wouldn't god be a chaotic system? Isn't god our leaky waterwheel? One that through analysis we should be able with some certainty predict?

Religion has been trying to do that for millinea now, trying to find their own differental equations for god. The bible, qu'ran among others are attempts at this reasoning. However, even with these attempts at making gods so called actions logical, we still have no idea what god's actions will be in certain conditions. Until someone comes along and shows us a way to do this, it seems illogical that god could exist.


--------------------
"assumption is the mother of all fuckup" - me

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: PotSmokinHippie]
    #833291 -

we still have no idea what god's actions will be in certain conditions. Until someone comes along and shows us a way to do this, it seems illogical that god could exist.

Could you expound on this theory. It seems at first glance to be a little strange.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: PotSmokinHippie]
    #833382 -

Events like september 11th, volcanoes dessimating pompeii and herculaneum, all unpredictable and done by gods.

I would think most religions wouldn't believe God is responsible for September 11th.

Perhaps God would blame it on religion?

Religion has been trying to do that for millinea now, trying to find their own differental equations for god. The bible, qu'ran among others are attempts at this reasoning.

?

we still have no idea what god's actions will be in certain conditions. Until someone comes along and shows us a way to do this, it seems illogical that god could exist.

Are you saying you would need a simulation of the entire universe inside a super computer to prove the existence of God?

If it could be done I would guess you might have disproved free will, but I'm not sure you would have proved the existence of any deity.

The simulation when reaching the moment in time when the program was started would have to be able to simulate itself.

It would then have to make predictions about the future which would have to presumably include some actions based on knowledge of the predictions themselves.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: mirror_saw]
    #833399 -

The simulation when reaching the moment in time when the program was started would have to be able to simulate itself.

I imagine it would crash faster than Windows 98.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: mirror_saw]
    #833416 -

I imagine it would crash faster than Windows 98.
THAT would be a miracle!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: jim_dewit]
    #833511 -

but religion tells us also one more thing about God. He is all knowing, he knows what we will do, what we have done, and what we are doing this very moment. And that is the crux of the problem. Gods very existence robs humans of free will. If God knows what I will have for breakfast tomorrow, or who I will fall in love with, then do I really have a choice in the matter? It is set in stone! We have no free will.

Lets say for the sake of argument that there is a God.

Lets say for the sake of argument that God knows what you will have for breakfast tomorrow.

What if God stands outside of time and he know's what you will have for breakfast tomorrow because he knows the choice you DID make, and NOT by knowing the choice you WILL make. Would this invalidate free will?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: mirror_saw]
    #833670 -

Lets say for the sake of argument that there is a God.

Lets say for the sake of argument that God knows what you will have for breakfast tomorrow.

What if God stands outside of time and he know's what you will have for breakfast tomorrow because he knows the choice you DID make, and NOT by knowing the choice you WILL make. Would this invalidate free will?

You hit the nail on the head. For muslims this belief is called al Qadar, or Divine Predestination. Al Qadar includes belief in four things: 1) God knows everything. He knows what will happen and what has happened. 2) God has recorded all that will happen and all that has already happened. 3) Whatever God wills to happen happens, and whatever He wills not to happen does not happen. 4) God is the Creator and Sustainer of everything.

Humans do have free will, it's more than obvious in today's world.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: mirror_saw]
    #833844 -

I would think most religions wouldn't believe God is responsible for September 11th.

According to christanity, catholicism, god is the creator of all good and evil (I think its in psalm 43:13), so in that sense he is responsible.

Religion has been trying to do that for millinea now, trying to find their own differental equations for god. The bible, qu'ran among others are attempts at this reasoning.

What I mean is that these writings are attempts to describe how god will act with certain conditions, so they are kind of like differental equations in the sense that they try to explain a chaotic system.

Are you saying you would need a simulation of the entire universe inside a super computer to prove the existence of God?

yes.

If it could be done I would guess you might have disproved free will, but I'm not sure you would have proved the existence of any deity.

Interesting point. If god could be proven using that method, free will and god are kinda one in the same. Going back to Jim's argument:

Gods very existance robs humans of free will. If God knows that I what I will have for breakfast tomorow, or who I will fall in love with, then do I really have a choice in the matter? It is set in stone!

So any god that makes a difference in our lives controls our free will. So you disprove free will you essentially prove god.


--------------------
"assumption is the mother of all fuckup" - me

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: Zahid]
    #833859 -

3) Whatever God wills to happen happens, and whatever He wills not to happen does not happen.

Dosen't that refute free will?


--------------------
"assumption is the mother of all fuckup" - me

Edited by PotSmokinHippie (08/21/02 03:50 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: PotSmokinHippie]
    #833877 -

Deleted by admin

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: World Spirit]
    #833903 -

Um, as far as the science of what is going to happen in a given event, we are not far from that... Not in the form of pure math, but in the way of quantum computers... If a computer can do it... and it seems to me you are arguing more against being a christian than a belief in something greater than ourselves...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: Zahid]
    #833920 -

God knows everything. He knows what will happen and what has happened.
&
God has recorded all that will happen and all that has already happened.
Why does he bother recording things if he already knows? Does he forget things?


Whatever God wills to happen happens, and whatever He wills not to happen does not happen.
&
Humans do have free will...
It seems this is a contradiction....


But back to the point, "Whatever God wills to happen happens, and whatever He wills not to happen does not happen." God willed me to not believe in Islam, he (assuming god has a sexual designation) willed me to use all my powers of reason and always have doubt about religious dogma. Why would God then punish me for not believing in Islam? Seems like a fucking asshole.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: jim_dewit]
    #833952 -

maybe freewill is just our being walking the path that our ancestors have paved for us..

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: ]
    #834016 -

Why does he bother recording things if he already knows? Does he forget things?

Everything is recorded for the Day of Judgement when all of mankind will face Allah for review. The term recording is used in a sense that everything you do is on a record.

It seems this is a contradiction....

No, it isn't. Humans have free will, since the dawn of creation. The purpose of this world which was designed for humans to live in, and adapt to, is to choose good over evil. Since humans have free will, many of choose to reject the Signs of Allah.

But back to the point, "Whatever God wills to happen happens, and whatever He wills not to happen does not happen." God willed me to not believe in Islam, he (assuming god has a sexual designation) willed me to use all my powers of reason and always have doubt about religious dogma. Why would God then punish me for not believing in Islam? Seems like a fucking asshole.

You don't seem to comprehend divine predestination. Everything that happens, happens in His will because God is the Sustainer of all that exists. Humans have free will. Everyone should know that. God is outside the realm of time and space, He is All knowing, and He knows all that has happened, and what will happen. If you were to believe tomorrow morning and repent to Allah, it would have been your ultimate destination. If you continue to rebel against God, and die in that belief, that would have been your ultimate destination. When all humans are at a fetus stage in life, an angel goes to the fetus to breath in his or her soul. The angel then asks God, "Should I breath in a blessed soul, or an accursed one?" God then tells the angel what kind of soul to breath in based on His knowledge of what that person will do through out their life with their free will.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: Zahid]
    #834129 -

so if allah knows everything that has happened and will happen.. why does mankind have to face allah for review? shouldn't all that stuff be over by now? what's he waiting for? he knows the answers..

Edited by deep_umbra (08/21/02 05:35 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: Zahid]
    #834186 -

... an angel goes to the fetus to breath in his or her soul. The angel then asks God, "Should I breath in a blessed soul, or an accursed one?" God then tells the angel what kind of soul to breath in based on His knowledge of what that person will do through out their life with their free will.

ROFLOL... Dude, you really should stop reading children's nursery tales and try exercising your grey matter. So God already decides to have 'an accursed one' imparted in a body with this 'divine predestination' and yet I am supposed to buy this malarkey that the same God is going to judge this soul based on a pre-ordained outcome? What's the point? Why don't the soul's carnal parents just drop the kid in a pit of fire at birth? (or is that forbidden in Islam?)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: jim_dewit]
    #834191 -

To whomever-

Firstoff, believing in a God that determines anything other than the initial act of creation IS believing in determinism (no free will). I don't care how you try to argue this. If God gave us free will, then he has no control over anything now... and it would be unfair to judge us (if he did, he'd be a dick and, once again, he can fuck off).
__________________________________________________

____A___vs.___B
Free Will vs. Determinism
No God vs. God


All of these arguments basically center around one common element: control.

Who has control? That's what we're really arguing here, right?

Well, since I have neither proof FOR nor AGAINST the existence of god(s), my perspective of the matter can be understood with a question:
Which mindset do I think is more healthy if the other was true?

Since I think it certainly SEEMS like we have free will, then I figure 'hey, that's good for me'. I could be mistaken and everything I do is actually a series of cause and effect... but even if it were, I don't think it would matter one way or another.

Since I've never seen irrefutable proof of a god, naturally, I lean towards NOT believing in a god. If I were wrong and God does exist, then the situation would depend entirely on the nature of this God. If it was the Buddhist concept of God, NOTHING would be different for me in this life. If it was Zeus, I imagine he'd be pretty pissed at me... but then I'd wonder why he never struck me down with a thunderbolt for my blasphemy. If it were the Abrahamic version of God, then I'd hope it wasn't the "angry, vengeful God" that Zahid favors... I'd still have to ask him why I was damned at birth to not believe in him and, thus, am forced to burn in hell for all eternity even though I had not experienced anything that would lead me to believe in him. So, in this case, I'd hope for the cool God who hates dogma just as much as me... and s/he would understand why I didn't believe in him/her.

Back to the 'healthy mindset' question...
I think that my perspective on the matter is quite grounded. If I was born into this life determined to be a non-believer of a wrathful god and when I die, I'll burn in hell, THEN so be it. I didn't have a choice anyways and therefore it is not my fault... my soul was damned from the start.

If there is free will and there is no god, then I'm ten steps ahead of those who waste their lives prostrated for fear that they'll burn in hell if they don't pray or for the self-satisfying goal of a pleasurable eternity in ecstasy. Note how ego-driven those two motivational factors are... I also get the luxury of not having to feel so anxious. I don't have to wonder if I'm going to hell or not. I don't have to wonder if some omnipresent being is looking over my shoulder as I'm knocking one out... or taking a few shots... or making love before marriage. I don't have to wake up early on the weekends (or any holy day). I don't have to sing songs to appease or celebrate an invisible, intangible, omnipotent, omnipresent being that will judge me come some day of reckoning far off in the future...

I don't have to do any of that and I'm okay with that.
If you're not okay with that, then I can tell you about my perspective on dogmatic thinking.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: ]
    #834394 -

What's the point? Why don't the soul's carnal parents just drop the kid in a pit of fire at birth?


ROFL


That reminds me of an Itchy & Scratchy episode where Itchy builds a cloning machine... The Scratchies come out on the convayer and there is too many for Itchy to kill... So Itchy builds a killing machine and the Scratchy clones go directly from the convayer into the killing machine.... And there was much blood, and laughing, and the people rejoyced...

I really hoped this wouldnt turn into a damned flame fest, but ha!, how neive of me.

And Zahid, I know you probably think im going to hell, for not believing in God, or his retarted messengers, and thats fine, thats your opinion... You want my opinion? Your already in hell pal... *shudder*

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: jim_dewit]
    #834557 -

=Ahh, but religion tells us also one more thing about God. He is all knowing, he knows what we will do, what we have done, and what we are doing this very moment.=




Wrong.



The Bible Speaks of God having 'plans' for people. It never says God directly knows the future. It speaks of people following plans, or falling out of them.


That is free will. Falling in and out of whatever 'fate' was there originally.

I think you're defining free-will incorreclty in terms of religious diety. Free will on earth is defined from the heavens as giving a person the choice to believe, support, or turn against God.

In heaven, such a free will does not exist. Because, well, you're in heaven, with God. And you know for a fact he exists.


(keep in mind, this is ALL from what I hear at church, don't start anti-religion mobilizing against me or anything)


--------------------
"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: jim_dewit]
    #834574 -

Bungalow bungalow snip sniditty sniditty.

Cheerios,

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: jim_dewit]
    #834830 -

Just a gentle reminder





Edited by Shroomism (08/22/02 01:08 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: ]
    #834898 -

Just a "gentle" reminder (to those that believe in aliens) that some of those beautiful supernovae probably wiped out thousands of inhabitted worlds, putting an end to more than a few, million-year old civilizations. Oh, well...

Can you feel the cosmic love?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: Swami]
    #834902 -

Creation and destruction, it's a beautiful cycle

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: ]
    #834915 -

Except when it is you and yours caught in the destructive spin cycle...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: Swami]
    #835038 -

We all die somehow, might as well be a supernova.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: ]
    #835434 -

Absolutely beautiful pictures, Shroomism.

They remind me of a man that had prayed to have God reveal Himself to him. He told a Christian that he had prayed numerous times and it didn't change anything. The Christian told him to go out into the yard at night and look up into the stars and ask God to reveal something to him. The guy did and reported back. The Christian asked him, "Well, how did it go?" The guy said, "I felt like a fool."

Some revelation, huh?

Cheers,

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: jim_dewit]
    #835538 -

maybe it is just a bloodcurdling theory, but it' s the way I see this thing...

It was not god who created man, it was man that created god. If one says, god is nothing but a product of human imagination, I think he is damn' right. Human imagination is a power that is underestimated very often. If many, many people are together in a church, a temple or a stadium, praying and singing, they create a strong energy that may become autonomus entity. Even one human being can create such a thing. Shamans for example, have their own sprits. Most shamans don 't even know that they created them, they think they found them or so.

So, if you think you need a god, believe in one that is allready created, or create one for yourself. And if you want to live as an atheist, just deny the existence of any god.

Sure you want to know if I believe in god. Yes, I do. I believe in every god. These are the ones I worship the most:

1.a self-created beech tree godess and a self created yew tree godess
2.Mary, the mother of Jesus, she is a symbol for mercy
3.Shiva, killing the deamons with his trident
4.Cernunnos, a celtic god of growth
5.Ostara, a german spring-godess
6.Lucifer, he negates everything



Some of you might call me a heretic now, but I don' t care!


--------------------
Remain in Light
Greez Ini

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: jim_dewit]
    #835561 -

In reply to:
Two possible universes exist:

1. One without a God
2. One with a God




You forgot the most simple possibility of all.. God is the universe.. Omnipresent and eternal..

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: PotSmokinHippie]
    #835568 -

According to Christianity, Catholicism, God is the creator of all good and evil (I think its in psalm 43:13), so in that sense he is responsible.

"Christian philosophy has uniformly attributed moral and physical evil to the action of created free will. Man has himself brought about the evil from which he suffers by transgressing the law of God. Evil is in created things under the aspect of mutability, and possibility of defect, not as existing per se. The evil from which man suffers is, however, the condition of good, for the sake of which it is permitted." (Catholic Encyclopedia)

As I understand it, the orthodox view is that evil is permitted by God but never created by God.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: mirror_saw]
    #835587 -

As I understand it, the orthodox view is that evil is permitted by God but never created by God.

But this makes no sense. If god is omnipotent and infinite and he created the entire universe, then he created all that is in the universe. This includes evil. If before god started fucking with stuff there was no evil, then he makes worlds, people, etc and there is evil, he CREATED it. If he didn't create evil, if man created evil, then god isn't as all-powerful as everyone thinks. This would mean that man is just as powerful as god and his pathetic creationistic powers (I know that its not a word but see I created it. I am GOD)

Now this isn't pointed at you mirror saw, you stated that that was the orthodox view so I am assuming that because of how it was worded that it isn't your view.


--------------------
"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: PotSmokinHippie]
    #835648 -

However to disprove god, you need to look towards mathematical reasoning.

Chaos theory is the study of nonlinear systems dependent on initial conditions, where a small change in initial conditions can cause a drastic change in the outcome.

Now, I'm all sure we've heard the stuff "the lord works in mysterious ways" and I'm sure, that through all religions, this statement can be deduced to be true. So in reality, wouldn't god be a chaotic system?

One that through analysis we should be able with some certainty predict?

A summary of your reasoning given as a M-P/S-M/S-P syllogism.
(M=middle, S=subject, P=predicate)

Major premise:

Chaotic behavior can be modeled

Minor premise:

God's intervention is chaotic ("God moves in mysterious ways")

Conlusion:

God's intervention can be modeled (if God exists)

The error is that the middle term (the term that does not occur in the conclusion) which in this case is "Chaotic" is being used in a different sense in each premise.

Your logic is known as a Four-Term Fallacy.

Not all behavior that appears chaotic can be modeled, and the intervention of God in the world would by definition have to be non-causal. If it were purely by natural process or by the work of man then how is God involved?



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: postalboy]
    #835666 -

If he didn't create evil, if man created evil, then god isn't as all-powerful as everyone thinks.

I don't think that there would be that problem, as man only has free will because it's given by God. Man could not create evil if it were not permitted by God, but this is of course not to say that God wants us to be evil.

(in orthodox Christianity)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: postalboy]
    #835776 -

I am assuming that because of how it was worded that it isn't your view.

your assumption is wrong, I don't believe God is responsible for evil.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: jim_dewit]
    #835793 -

You have to look at God as standing outside of time. He resides in the "eternal present"

i.e. If I am waving my hand at you and you are witnessing it then you can say matter of factly that I am waving my hand. You knowing this for a fact hasn't changed the idea that I have free will.

God sees all event in this way. He knows matter of factly everything that I have done, am doing, will do but he sees it in the eternal present. So him knowing these things about "my" future (not his) doesn't negate my free will.

Imagine us as living life like a movie from start to finish. Imagine God as having the whole film in his hands and able to see every frame at the same time. (don't over induldge in this analogy.....unlike a film we are not locked into our choices).


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: chemkid]
    #836533 -

Ever herd of life flashing before your eyes at death. Well this is it, your at the point of death. Life is but an instant. Its slowed down so it can be experienced. (The illusion of time.) This is why everything is predestined.
As far as ever really having free will goes, look at the universe. Its a perfect mechanism, precise there are no mistakes. And since we're part of the universe maybe free will is an illusion also?
People ask, if there is a god then why is there so much pain and suffering?----- Obviously it must be necessary. God is not vengeful, there is no hell, there is no devil, although there are entity's that could be perceived as devils, angles, demons, and gods. God's creation, the universe must be governed by laws. That is, god would be limited by natural laws beyond our understanding. Suffering is necessary, otherwise it would not be. e.g.: If you build a house you must first lay foundations, then the frame etc. During which you labour (suffer) in order to get it finished. Or in most cases labour at work to get the money to pay for a house. (Most of the time that kind of suffering is worse than physical suffering.) You can't just say abbra cadabra and then you have a house.
When we talk about god which god are we talking about, the god, or the lesser gods. Lesser gods being entity's also beyond our understanding. (ET's etc.) Its these entity's I believe that have shaped mankind, and at least in the beginning the religious beliefs that have become so messed up, dogmatic, and out dated. It is more than probable the these entity's are our creator. Who can deny this at least as a possibility.

Edited by jayson (08/22/02 04:12 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: Sclorch]
    #836680 -

Firstoff, believing in a God that determines anything other than the initial act of creation IS believing in determinism (no free will). I don't care how you try to argue this. If God gave us free will, then he has no control over anything now... and it would be unfair to judge us (if he did, he'd be a dick and, once again, he can fuck off).

God does not reveal evidence of His existence to man, rather the proof is in the world around you.

Behold! In the creation
Of the heavens and the earth;
In the alternation
Of the Night and the Day;
In the sailing of the ships
Through the Ocean
For the profit of mankind;
In the rain which God
Sends down from the skies
And the life which He gives therewith
To an earth that is dead,
In the beasts of all kinds
That He scatters
Through the earth;
In the change of the winds,
And the clouds which they
Trail like their slaves
Between the sky and the earth
Here indeed are Signs
For a people that are wise.

2:164

Life is like this: You enter the world, you receive the word of your Creator, who demands that you obey Him, and believe in Him regardless what ideas conflict with that faith, because the world is full of the deception of Satan. Be it evolution, the idea that faith is the death of a thinking mind, the idea that God exists as a flowing energy, or reincarnation. Faith in the Unseen is an important part of surrendering to the true God, who happens to judge the evil ones of His creations. Are you seriously willing to take the risk of dying in disbelief? You were born into a rather chaotic existence. There is established faiths in the Creator. Not one, not two, but three faiths that call for mankind to believe and repent to God. You hear believers arguing God's existence through experience. Does it make you think, maybe this is a possibility. All the abrahamic faiths speak of Hell. Have you ever once considering Hell to be a reality?

The life of this world
Is alluring to those
Who reject faith,
And they scoff at those
Who believe.
But for the righteous
Will be above them
On the Day of Resurrection;
For God bestows His abundance
Without measure
On whom He will.

2:212

Those who purchase
Unbelief at the price
Of faith -
Not the least harm
Will they do to God,
But they will have
A grievous punishment.

2:177

The Hereafter is beyond the opinion of disbelievers. If you believe, and experience God, you will truly understand why the faithful are the way they are. You will see the benefit of surrendering to your Lord.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: Zahid]
    #836815 -

Listen Zahid...

You can believe whatever you want to believe, but if you're here to convert us merely by asserting some "truth," then you need to wake up. I don't have time for any more bullshit. I understand your faith better than you do... you don't want truth, no, you just want your side to be right. Until you realize that the reed is more powerful than the brick wall, you'll forever find resistence to your beliefs.

I've met many illiterate people who are more forgiving than yourself.
Maybe you should think about that before you post again.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: Sclorch]
    #836869 -

Zahid was thinking about it, that's why he said "maybe it's a possibility". To be honest Zahid seems a lot more open minded than you.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* God Exists
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )		 Zahid 12,428 113 03/18/03 03:57 PM
by falcon
* Dose God exist? Take a look around.
( 1 2 3 4 all )		 Bavet 7,461 67 02/06/03 10:46 AM
by Strumpling
* Does God Exist? part one
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )		 MentalHygene 16,821 126 02/22/02 08:26 PM
by ArCh_TemPlaR
* Does God Exist? (lets get to the point!) MentalHygene 1,177 12 02/08/02 10:19 AM
by Seuss
* it seems therefore, that God does not exist. whiterastahippie 1,880 12 11/11/11 02:01 AM
by thefloodbehind
* Are you a slave to a God that doesn't exist?
( 1 2 3 all )		 Larrythescaryrex 8,030 42 07/30/02 04:00 PM
by Larrythescaryrex
* Thinking about the nature of God Ellis Dee 2,453 19 03/09/16 06:31 PM
by falcon
* When will you all understand? There is no god!
( 1 2 3 4 ... 13 14 )		 Fliquid 22,501 263 09/22/11 10:30 AM
by Cactilove

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
5,577 topic views. 3 members, 0 guests and 3 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.037 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 16 queries.