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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from...
    #1114751 - 12/05/02 07:13 PM (14 years, 4 days ago)

This is all entirely opinion and hypothesis and I do not mean to present any of it as fact.

Please read this all (it should literally take you five minutes) and tell me what you think of it, questions, compliments and objections are valued equally.


Death and Destruction do no exist.

Death and destruction are short-term views. We may see something change forms and then call it death, but really all it has done is change. This philosophy is based both in spirituality and science. As far as the science aspect of it goes, as any scientist knows matter cannot be created or destroyed, it can merely change form and sometimes become energy, however nothing ever seizes to exist. All matter is consistent, what was originally will always be and there is nothing that anyone or anything can ever do to change that. Any destruction can also be viewed as creation. One may say that a star has died or been destroyed, but it can also be said that the so-called "death" of a star is really just creation. Basically, what happens when a star dies is its own helium/hydrogen core either runs out or explodes, leaving behind all of its matter to create new things. Some popular names for these new things are "White dwarf" stars, neutron star and the recently proven to exist, black holes. All that was the star still is, it is just in different places and different forms. When a star explodes it can factually be said, "Look at all that is being created". Also, as the star "lives" it also spawns creation. Creation never stops, and destruction never takes place. Plants my "die" but as we all know, dead plants make great soil. All that was the plant still is, it is just in different places and different forms. Different, but the same. The plant has changed into something else, but no part of the plant is no longer in existence. Oceans may dry up, but they become gas.

As to the spiritual side, if, as I believe it is, our true nature is spirit not body and we know that our body can be part of the creation/destruction system of continual existence then it could be assumed that our spirit could do the same. Perhaps our spirit is an island unto itself; perhaps it is an always-evolving morphing spirit. Either way, I conclude that Death is a myth, a one dimensionalized view that has been greatly exaggerated. We don't seize to be, we merely change.

Some might say that destruction and creation exist together, in harmony, in a yin and yang like inter relationship. I say destruction is just a term for creation, so ultimately it is all creation anyway. However, it can also be said that creation is another word of destruction. A growing plant can be viewed as a "dead seed", after all the seed is no longer a seed. It can also be said that creation and destruction doesn't exist, only change. Things change from one thing into another. The initial change is generally labeled destruction and the following change is labeled creation, but as I have stated no matter is destroyed or created, simply changed. Call it what you will, creation/destruction/birth/death we are talking about the same thing.
I chose to say that death and destruction do not exist because I believe that the traditional idea of death and destruction really doesn't exist. People view death and destruction as seizing to be, the absence of anything, and that truly does not exist. If scientific law really is applicable to all things and consistent throughout all existent, and science and spirituality are two in the same and play by the same rules, as Einstein always thought, then there is no reason to believe you seize to be when you die, in fact all indicators point to the opposite. We do spiritually and physically, live forever. We are eternal and we are part of the continuous creation that is the inheriting nature of existence. We are eternal creation, ever creating, never destroying.


Who created the first creation? Where is God from? Where do we come from?

After deep mediation, contemplation and even scientific research I have come to an interesting conclusion. If all matter can neither be created nor destroyed, as basic scientific law states, then the answer to how was the original matter created is simple...it wasn't. It has always been. Creation doesn't exist. Neither does destruction.

Humans feel it is logical that all things have a starting point, but why? Where does anything really start? If all matter is consistant, then nothing has ever been created. Take a look at some processes in nature. Water becomes gas; gas becomes water in a continuous cycle...where does it start? It doesn't. There isn't a starting point; there isn't an ending point. It simply exists that way. I have come to hypothesize that the true nature of everything is a continuum, a circle. Look at the rock cycle; rocks are melted and then hardened forming igneous rocks. Igneous rocks are then, eventually, subjected to heat and pressure and become Metamorphic. When the process of nature weather these rocks down into tiny particles they settle and eventually lithophy and become Sedimentary. These rocks can then be melted and then harden and become igneous, or they can be partially melted and become metamorphic. Any of the three rocks can become any of the other rocks. Where does it start? It doesn't. Where does it end? It doesn't. It's a process.

Beginning, middle and end are terms we create to define time. If the universe never began, and it will never end, then there is no middle. Therefore, I hypothesize that time doesn't exist. We comprehend things with only what is familiar to us. We tend to define things by what they mean to us. In other words, if we don't think it affects us, it isn't important. As far as our interests go, the period of time the Earth will be around does have a beginning, a middle and an end, at least in terms of the actually planet before its form changes, what some might call "the destruction of the Earth". So the theory of time is applicable to Earth. So since the terms beginning, middle and end do apply to that, we accept them. They also apply to the time we are alive and the time are friends are alive, as well as the time we are at work and until we get home. However, I think we make the mistake of thinking that the terms beginning, middle and end apply to everything because it applies to everything we think about, and so everything must have a beginning, middle and end. This isn't necessarily true. If all matter cannot be created or destroyed then there is no beginning, middle and end to matter. Since the universe is made up of matter than there must be no beginning, middle and end to that as well. We are not use to thinking in those terms but I think they are quite factual, if not unconventional. If time is defined as the period between beginning and ending, and there is no ending...if there is no ending then there can be no time. If you define time as change than you might find this confusing. Change and time are different, time is a measured period and change is simply measure of difference from one form to another. Change is physical time is not, it is mental, or rather all in the mind. The universe was never created, neither was God and neither were we is what my hypothesis is. Existence always was and always will be and time does not apply to it.


Tell me what you think?


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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Anonymous

Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1114763 - 12/05/02 07:17 PM (14 years, 4 days ago)

Excellent.

I hope you dont mind me throwing this idea out here..

Being omnipresent and eternal, time has no meaning, function, place, or purpose. So there is only one moment of infinite possibility. Just an idea.

Very nice, five shrooms for you.


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: ]
    #1114777 - 12/05/02 07:24 PM (14 years, 4 days ago)

New ideas are great. By all means, interject all you want.

I would give you 5 mushrooms except I already did.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineGrowingVines
Slowly Changinginto a Tree
Registered: 08/22/02
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1114829 - 12/05/02 07:48 PM (14 years, 4 days ago)

I agree with you on this subject. Great thread by the way. You basically took the words out of my mouth and posted them before i did... Kudos man...Kudos...i am gonna be doing some heavy meditaion soon and hope to come back to help enlighten you as you have me.


--------------------
Peace out my brothers, for everyone has a bit of insanity in them


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: GrowingVines]
    #1114943 - 12/05/02 08:25 PM (14 years, 4 days ago)

i am gonna be doing some heavy meditaion soon and hope to come back to help enlighten you as you have me.

Absolutely. I'll look forward to it man. :smile: 


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1114972 - 12/05/02 08:30 PM (14 years, 4 days ago)

I believe this as well. I could have written it all out like you have a while ago, but I find writing something like this to take up too much time - It's like I have memorized all my writings after I pieced the puzzle tougather. Now I have a foundation to think on.

Time is however, a concept most everyone in the material world believes in. I have to conform to an extant.

-Chaos loops.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineSnuffelzFurever
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Registered: 09/17/02
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1114987 - 12/05/02 08:33 PM (14 years, 4 days ago)

once, when tripping on mushrooms, i smoked salvia
i took out a sheet of paper, and drew a plain graph
on this graph, i quickly discovered how to make math interwine itself with conciousness to create time, and go on infinitely, but somehow still end.
i graphed a sine wave going from -1 to 1, and then back again, but inverted. it was an infinite sign. it was all crazy and mind-awakening and whatever and crap, lol.
but what im trying to get at is that somehow, it is possible that the concept of infinite exists, whether we understand it or not. time can have a capital T to differentiate the beginning of Time, and the notion of time that humans have. Everything, with the sine-wave-graph-inverted-thingy-infinite-sign-epiphany-from-mushrooms, collapses on itself and begins upon itself again. all within the oneness of the universe (what since 1 is the largest number a sine wave can go on the y axis), and the binary essence of life... very weird, maybe im not making sense. i'm not going to reread this and edit it so that it makes sense, and im sorry, lol. but it should kinda come together.
time as humans make it out to be doesnt exist. but Time can exist on the graph, as a science we will never comprehend, until we all get together and do mushrooms :-)

I think.


--------------------
"I think it's time we stop
Children, What's the sound,
Everybody look what's going down"


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1115131 - 12/05/02 08:59 PM (14 years, 4 days ago)

i must agree. i figured this out when i asked myself... when did i start? o yeah i dont remember when i was born, i cant think that far back nor before birth. then i thought about my death... well i wont know when i die cause i will be dead, and obviously not doing my normal routine. you dont know when it starts and you dont know when it ends. i realized this is like time and existence it never began and it never will end, your reality and existence is based on the memories and perceptions that you have of it.  but theres always questions that go beyond death, or beyond our current understanding. so i must also agree with murex, i feel myself that i have learned way to much and that i am simply like a new mushroom with a solid foundation just waiting to grow and open its veil :smile:


--------------------
What?


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Offline3eyedgod
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Registered: 11/24/02
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1115313 - 12/05/02 09:45 PM (14 years, 4 days ago)

I have thought the same things. :cool:
I agree with you 100%



--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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Anonymous

Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1115555 - 12/05/02 11:28 PM (14 years, 4 days ago)

I didnt state it in my first post, but I also agree very much with that idea. Me and a good friend pondered over this idea for a while, till we came to the same conclusion.

It makes sense, perfect sense. And so much fits within it. And all that makes sense, too.

I keep trying to articulate my thoughts but I cant do it, oh well.. maybe some other time.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: SnuffelzFurever]
    #1115722 - 12/06/02 12:30 AM (14 years, 4 days ago)

I too have had this "epiphany" however take it 1 step further and see that not only do the integers 1 and -1 cancel but the graph you describe is a "cancelled" wave (the theory behind white noise) It is only our "creation" of reality that tips the balance in order that we might experience physicality.Without conscousness to give it form your graph descrbes the infinite nothingness of possibility from which we derive reality.Very Cool  :wink:WR 


--------------------
To old for this place


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: whiterasta]
    #1116030 - 12/06/02 01:59 AM (14 years, 4 days ago)

I guess that would be proof of a spirit. Great post!


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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Offlineakyouser_oner
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1116465 - 12/06/02 09:27 AM (14 years, 4 days ago)

the beginning of time is right now. wait, NOW. NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOWNOWNOWNOWNOWNOWNOWNOWNOWNOW. infinite. how large is the universe? if it ends, what's outside of it? infinity.


--------------------
-akyouser.oner
<(((((((((((((((@~~~


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1117135 - 12/06/02 02:20 PM (14 years, 4 days ago)

"Nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is transformed."
Antoine-Laurent de Lavoisier

This particular theory is also based in the assumption of the existence of a primal element or essence, the bound to the whole or universal existence. The greeks were the first to follow this line of thinking although evolutionists like Lavoisier restudy and applied this theory to its scientific line of work.
You have good points in you reasonning but,
In reply to:

Either way, I conclude that Death is a myth, a one dimensionalized view that has been greatly exaggerated. We don't seize to be, we merely change



Maybe not one dimensionalized but linear. Our perception of existence (in this reality) is linear, we born, live and die. We can assume other planes of reality and existence but we'll be just assuming.

In reply to:

I chose to say that death and destruction do not exist because I believe that the traditional idea of death and destruction really doesn't exist.



You cannot choose, death and destruction chooses you. Reality does not exist by what we believe about it, it exists by itself and afect us believing on it or not.

In reply to:

If scientific law really is applicable to all things and consistent throughout all existent, and science and spirituality are two in the same and play by the same rules,



If scientific law could be applied to all things (wich i personally don't believe), that would outrun most of the spiritual concepts, so they might be two in the same but they're applied differently to the same things or applied exclusivelly to specific things.

In reply to:

We do spiritually and physically, live forever.



Perhaps but both at the same time do not live forever. That would make us "gods".

In reply to:

I have come to hypothesize that the true nature of everything is a continuum, a circle.



Not everything, but everything that matters is, it's my personal believe. The question is , what's that matters ?

In reply to:

Beginning, middle and end are terms we create to define time. If the universe never began, and it will never end, then there is no middle. Therefore, I hypothesize that time doesn't exist.



The problem is that you cannot live without time (at least in our mental framework), so in this reality time MUST exist so we can exist.

MAIA




--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: MAIA]
    #1117590 - 12/06/02 04:26 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Well said!  Well done!

Nice to see you posting with us! :smile:


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: MAIA]
    #1117629 - 12/06/02 04:39 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Thanks once again to everyone who posted any comments, particularly those who posted additional ideas.

I am surprised and pleased these ideas were so accepted. :smile:

You cannot choose, death and destruction chooses you. Reality does not exist by what we believe about it, it exists by itself and affect us believing on it or not.

I do not mean that I choose death, I mean I choose to say that death doesn't exist based on the idea that the traditional definition of death doesn't exist, in my opinion. Just a matter of syntax.

If scientific law could be applied to all things (which i personally don't believe), that would outrun most of the spiritual concepts, so they might be two in the same but they're applied differently to the same things or applied exclusivelly to specific things.

This is the point I figured was going to be debated the most. I don't think that spirituality and science are opposites. Some say that any spiritual experience is just tricks of the pineal gland and frontal lobes...why does that eliminate the spirituality of it? Why can it not be both? Why can it not be activated by the spirit and carried out by the body? In this way I think spirituality and science are the same.

I think some of the current scientific laws may not be applicable to everywhere and everything, but my belief is that is because it is an untrue law. A true, or perfect, scientific law would be applicable to everything, in my opinion.

Einstein once said,  "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." I to think you can and must combine the two in order to come to a real conclusion. By that I mean stricly in personal exploration, not legal Governing.

However, its all opinion...there can be no "proof".

Perhaps but both at the same time do not live forever. That would make us "gods".

By physically I just mean our particles live on, although they change. Besides, perhaps we are Gods.

The problem is that you cannot live without time (at least in our mental framework), so in this reality time MUST exist so we can exist.

Like I said, time exists, but only in our minds. Almost all people on Earth think in terms of daytime and their body. Time is applicable to those, therefore it is real to those. Yet, my idea is our true nature is spirit not body and to the spirit there is no death, therefore no time. Therefore the true nature of existence is, literally, timeless.

All some of my crazy theories at least. :smile: 


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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Offlinedumlovesyou
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1117651 - 12/06/02 04:49 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Hey.. Cool post.. Nothing to add.. maybe.. 
After deep mediation, contemplation and even scientific research I have come to an interesting conclusion.

No tripping? Not that this would be the only way.. But helps a lot!! :smile: SHROOM ON!!


--------------------
I see trees of green, psylocibe mushrooms too
I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself what a wonderful world


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OfflineRemy
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1117801 - 12/06/02 05:44 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Your theory is very well worded, however there are two major flaws in your theory.

In reply to:

As far as the science aspect of it goes, as any scientist knows matter cannot be created or destroyed, it can merely change form and sometimes become energy, however nothing ever seizes to exist.




This is not true. Matter is constantly being created and destroyed. You are right that matter=energy, but there are numerous elementary particles that exist for less than a second.

In reply to:

If scientific law really is applicable to all things and consistent throughout all existent, and science and spirituality are two in the same and play by the same rules, as Einstein always thought, then there is no reason to believe you seize to be when you die, in fact all indicators point to the opposite.




One of the greatest discoveries of the 20th century was that scientific laws do not exsist, and the laws of physics only govern groups of matter. Individual elementary particles are not governed by any physical laws (however we can predict group behavior thanks to statistics).

I will agree with you that time is a one dimensional (linear) view of things as they are and that science and spirituality are the same thing. My personal belief is that matter=spirit=energy, and that their exists a universal conciousness (there is scientific evidence of this) that is spirit, and thus god. I also believe that every time matter is destroyed, new matter is created, as not to upset the delicate balance of everything.


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Remy]
    #1117985 - 12/06/02 06:41 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

This is not true. Matter is constantly being created and destroyed. You are right that matter=energy, but there are numerous elementary particles that exist for less than a second.

My understanding of this is that those particles become energy, they may not be
"physical" but they do still exsist.

One of the greatest discoveries of the 20th century was that scientific laws do not exsist, and the laws of physics only govern groups of matter. Individual elementary particles are not governed by any physical laws (however we can predict group behavior thanks to statistics).

What I am saying is that a "true" scientific law does hold up to all things. If our scientfic laws do not it is only because they are incomplete or untrue, not because scientific law itself does not exsist.

I could definitely be wrong about these things but that is a tremendous part of the reason I shared this with everyone, if I am proven to be wrong, horray for me! My theories get updated and improved, and thus more applicable. :smile:


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineRemy
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1118052 - 12/06/02 07:03 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

This is not true. Matter is constantly being created and destroyed. You are right that matter=energy, but there are numerous elementary particles that exist for less than a second.

My understanding of this is that those particles become energy, they may not be
"physical" but they do still exsist.
All masons, some leptons, and some barysons directly violate the law of the conservation of mass-energy (see Einstein's special theory of relativity), in that they are constantly being created and then disappearing, and their energy equivalent only exists while the particles are in existence.

Quote:

What I am saying is that a "true" scientific law does hold up to all things. If our scientfic laws do not it is only because they are incomplete or untrue, not because scientific law itself does not exsist.





In that case, I believe that the only scientific law that holds up to everything, is that there are no laws.

Quote:

  could definitely be wrong about these things but that is a tremendous part of the reason I shared this with everyone, if I am proven to be wrong, horray for me! My theories get updated and improved, and thus more applicable. 




Everything I am saying is meant as constructive criticisms, to help you build and advance your theories.  :smile: 


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