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infidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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Why religion obscures the light of God.
#787792 - 07/31/02 06:51 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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The way I see it, getting to know God is like going from point A to point B - at least that's the way it should be...
So where is religion in this picture? What role does it play? The major monotheistic religions of the world presume to help us know God. To guide us along the path...
So where does religion stand?
Religion stands between God and Man
Whether it stands there as a bridge or a barrier is merely a matter of symantics. The simple truth is that religion stands there between point A and point B and it's not about to go anywhere... it snares the unwary seeker, positioning itself where one must pass to get to the Ultimate Destination. Maybe they want God all for themselves, maybe they realize that most of us are not strong enough to truly experience God, maybe they are as lost as the rest of us...
In the time before religion, there was only individual spirituality. God was experienced directly and anyone could know God. There wasn't an entity called "The Church" dictating how we should worship God and how we should live our lives.
Religion will never be pure because it is of the world, not of God. Because it is not pure, it can never represent God. Religion represents humanity, and it isn't painting a pretty picture. It shows just how far we have fallen.
There are some religions that are more enlightened. Some that reject the notion of being "saved" - that there is no salvation, only transcendence. People think these religions are new age but in fact these are the oldest of them all.
I hope that I haven't offended anybody because I know that religous people are generally nice, loving and intelligent people. I was once one of you. Religion does a lot of good, it saves lives and points lost souls in the right direction at least. But religion is not the destination. It is not what you are looking for. There are greater things in store for you if you could look beyond.
It is so sad because there are people I know and love who believe that they are experiencing God when in fact they are experiencing Religion. What's worse is they make no distinction between the two.
God cries because He sees the things we do in His name. He cries because his place in the human psyche has been replaced by a bloated man-made monstrosity. He has been eclipsed by a false idol that is blocking His light that once shined on us all. But religion isn't a complete waste, it points the way for us - but we must not stop there. We have to ride the momentum all the way. We must break through the tangled web of humanity and out the other side. Only then will we once again be in the light.
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Anonymous
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: infidelGOD]
#787819 - 07/31/02 07:10 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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I agree with you on all points. Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Sclorch
Clyster


Registered: 07/12/99
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: infidelGOD]
#787853 - 07/31/02 07:25 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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In the time before religion, there was only individual spirituality. God was experienced directly and anyone could know God.
I'd like to hear a religious person's words on this. Please.
-------------------- Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Tannis
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: infidelGOD]
#787871 - 07/31/02 07:34 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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I've always thought of religion and tradition as man's attempts to duplicate "spiritual" experiences. If somebody got something good when this or that happened, then maybe if we do this or that again, another something good might happen.
I think the other purpose of religion and tradition is to teach the young. This is where alot of the corruption leaks in.
Still, if every person could tune into God spiritually.....we would have no need for religion or tradition.....we would constantly experience God.
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MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)


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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: infidelGOD]
#787921 - 07/31/02 08:06 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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Agreed. Sometimes i wonder what should happen to Catholics if all of them got amnesia and forgot all about the church and their religion. With only the bible in their hands and after reading it, learn it's teachings and ideas and with a free way of thinking, would they make another church ? would they make a church ? Would they rediscover themselfs in something called Catholics ?
MAIA
-------------------- Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala

Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire
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World Spirit
PNW



Registered: 07/27/01
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: infidelGOD]
#788009 - 07/31/02 09:06 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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Deleted by admin
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buttonion
Calmly Watching

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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: infidelGOD]
#788105 - 07/31/02 09:46 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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I really like your post. Could you elaborate just a little on the following point?
We must break through the tangled web of humanity and out the other side. Only then will we once again be in the light.
I'm not trying to tear apart you idea, I would just like to know what this means to you.
-------------------- Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein
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Zahid
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: infidelGOD]
#788206 - 07/31/02 10:23 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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It is so sad because there are people I know and love who believe that they are experiencing God when in fact they are experiencing Religion. What's worse is they make no distinction between the two.
You say you believe in God, but in your heart you do not. We have a word for people like you...the mushrikkan, or the hypocrites. A large portion of the Qur'aan talks about the mushrikkan...they claim to believe in God, yet they reject His messengers. God judges you by what you knew and believed when you die. If you never recieved the message of a prophet, and die that way, Allah (Glory be to Him) will judge you as ignorant and allow you into Paradise. If you were raised a Hindu or a Buddhist all your life and never recieved the message of a prophet, Allah (swt) will judge you ignorant and Paradise is yours. If you receive His message at some point in your life, either Christianity, Islam, or Judaism, (the only established messages of today) and you do not submit to that faith, I am sorry friend but Hell is where you will abide.
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World Spirit
PNW



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Posts: 9,817
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Zahid]
#788251 - 07/31/02 10:42 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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Deleted by admin
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Anonymous
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Zahid]
#788315 - 07/31/02 11:05 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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God judges you by what you knew and believed when you die
Considering..you've heard 'the messages' or whatever.. What if you were on mushrooms experiencing everything you've believed in the past then someone came into your house and shot you? What if you had a case of amnesia right before you died? What if you die in your sleep while in a dream believing something differently than your 'normal' views? What if you got knocked on the head real hard and had no views at all?
What if you were just a confused person?
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LiquidSmoke
My title's cooler than yours DBK

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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: infidelGOD]
#788328 - 07/31/02 11:10 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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Wow.
That's actually a really good post. I agree in many aspects. Very, very good post.
=Religion will never be pure because it is of the world, not of God. Because it is not pure, it can never represent God. Religion represents humanity, and it isn't painting a pretty picture. It shows just how far we have fallen.=
-------------------- "Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)


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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Zahid]
#788354 - 07/31/02 11:19 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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"If you receive His message at some point in your life, either Christianity, Islam, or Judaism, (the only established messages of today) and you do not submit to that faith, I am sorry friend but Hell is where you will abide. "
Forgive my humble questions as i need your comment Zahid.
-What if the religion doesn't believe in hell ? -Do "(the only established messages of today)" have to believe in hell to be the only established messages of today ? -Is the established message of today necessarly the true and meaninfull message ? -Why, if there's only one good and assuming (deducting your statment) you believe there's a common hell, there are three different religions claiming to be the true connection with a higher being ? - You can assume they believe in the same god, but their division is the product of differences and disputes between man (this also hapened with several divisions between catholics, "cismas"). So, my other question is, why the need for several ways (religions) to connect to the same god ? Isn't it better to only believe in the possibility of the existence of god and be good and kind to others, practicing Christs or any other profet like acts but being humble enough to accept the fact that there are people thinking differently wich should be respected and wich you respect them by just being a free thinker, than being blinded and obligated to believe there's a hell you're going to if you don't behave as the word wants you to behave and accepting such word as an absolute truth without the benefit of the doubt ?
MAIA
-------------------- Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala

Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire
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LiquidSmoke
My title's cooler than yours DBK

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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Sclorch]
#788465 - 07/31/02 12:22 PM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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OK i think i'm a religious person. I grew up going to church and all. Although i don't buy into much of it as i used to.
Anyways, what a 'religious' person would probably say is that church is the house of God. And as the house of God, only those selected officials we call pedophiles-er priests can 'correctly' and 'clrealy' express the word of God. And that everything else we buy into the world is just temptation and Satan's attempt to distract people from going to church.
Personally, i don't see how this differs from saying the English Monarch is a divinely selected individual who should then rule over all humans. If God, the divine, all-seeing being was to chose someone to rule over humans, God would probably have forseen all the great leaders who WERENT monarchs. Ghandi, MLK, FDR, etc.
-------------------- "Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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Zahid
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: MAIA]
#788588 - 07/31/02 01:49 PM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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-What if the religion doesn't believe in hell ?
Worship pigs until the cows come home, once you learn about the word of God, you'll have no plea of ignorance.
-Do "(the only established messages of today)" have to believe in hell to be the only established messages of today ?
The religions of God yes, because Hell exists, and Hell is a reality, it exists in the teachings of every Prophet.
-Is the established message of today necessarly the true and meaninfull message ?
What message to speak of? Christianity, Judaism, and Islam? Judaism was the first of the three, then came Jesus the Messiah to the Jews, (the Bible also mentions of a future, and last prophet, know as the the Comforter), to top it off with the final messenger, Muhammad, who taught others the true religion of Abraham, only with an Arabic genre. To get an answer to that question that assures every last human, you might as well be asking me if God exists. All I can say to you is Yes, He does exist but this is based on experience (and no, I wasn't feeling an over-euphoric reaction to religion).
-Why, if there's only one good and assuming (deducting your statment) you believe there's a common hell, there are three different religions claiming to be the true connection with a higher being ?
There is a common hell, and all three religions claim to be the true connection because all the followers live by the scriptures (Christians like to think Muslims are going to Hell) which teaches those who reject God are lost. Because of the different messengers, the people who follow these great faiths all clash because they all believe their God is different. Over the years, the message of prophets eventually gets distorted to a gross point (Trinity, Begotten Son, Mary Mother of God, Confession, Tower of Babel) and another messsengers is needed.
Whatever happens in the will of God happens under very intelligent planning. God knew His creations on earth would clash like this, but once again, humans are very flawed beings despite their intelligence. The world is literally a place of chaotic events. Before Muhammad, God has spoken to thousands among thousands of prophets in the past.
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In(di)go
People of the sun.


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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Zahid]
#788656 - 07/31/02 02:37 PM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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really good post infidelGOD... that represents my view on religion almost exactly...
zahid... i would like to argue with you now, but i really need some sleep... i can?t focus beeing as tired as i am... so please excuse... take care yall, im off to bed
namast
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infidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: buttonion]
#788909 - 07/31/02 04:45 PM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thank you all for your words.
Buttonion, what I meant by that statement is that religion is a mass of humanity that lies halfway between God and Man. It's a bloated mass that blocks our view of God's light. What I mean is that we can't stop at religion because we are settling for less. We have to go beyond it because we will never find God in a place where people are.
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infidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Zahid]
#788972 - 07/31/02 05:07 PM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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Zahid, I don't know what to say to you. I know I can't say anything to change your mind, because your faith is very strong.
I have found God despite religion not because of it. I hope the same is true for you. I have not rejected God's messengers. I believe that Jesus was a true prophet. (I don't know much about Islam, excuse my ignorance). But did Jesus need Christianity to reach God? Did Muhammed need Islam? No, he only needed himself and God - nothing was in the way. Shouldn't we strive to be like Jesus? To be one with God?
What do you mean by "his messengers"? Do you include religion? Has God told you who the true messengers are? I would rather not rely on "messengers" because the messege is already clear to me.
There was a time when only members of the clergy had access to the bible and anyone who wanted to read the word of God had to go to them. Even today, Catholics can't ask God for forgiveness, they must ask a priest. Knowing God shouldn't be so complicated - it shouldn't involve more than two entities (or One if you're a Bhuddist).
Religion complicates a process that used to be simple. It is not evil or intentionally deceptive - it just gets in the way.
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Anonymous
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Zahid]
#789124 - 07/31/02 05:49 PM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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Zahid... I am of the belief that hell is a mental and psychological state that one chooses to place themselves into. A fear centered way of living, which indeed can be very sorrowful and miserable. Why, people place themselves into "hell" like ways of living all the time. "Oh feel sorry for me, I am so miserable, everyone else is to blame for my problems, I hate everything, this sucks.." etc etc.. This is not a state of mind that has been forced upon that person, they have chosen to view the world like that based upon their interpretation of reality.
Hell is not a place where one is thrown into for eternity in the afterlife. Hell is self-projected, and can be changed at any time by the individual choosing to remain in that state of being. It is a self-contained prison.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: MAIA]
#789181 - 07/31/02 06:13 PM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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As it turns out, the notion of Hell is to be found in the the high religions of Judaism (Sheol; "eternal contempt"), Christianity (obviously), Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism. The first 3 faiths are categorized as 'historical religions,' the second 2 are 'cosmic religions,' and a third category referred to as 'acosmic religions,' are the numerous 'nature religions' loosely called 'Pagan,' 'NeoPagan,' 'Wiccan,' etc. which deify the processes and cycles of nature. This 3rd category of religions generally do not entertain the notion of Hell. The 'Myth of the Eternal Return' is the metaphysic, and cosmic punishment is applied by a bad reincarnation - perhaps one is degraded to an animal raised for slaughter, or a beast of burden, depending upon the former existence.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Sclorch]
#789227 - 07/31/02 06:37 PM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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As soon as one discovers evidence of ritual, one has religion. Paleolithic remains have indicated the painting, binding and ritual burial of Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Spirituality as some kind of singularly defined state of being does not exist in its own right - this is an abstraction that the modern mind can 'distill' or deduce from various outer forms of religion.
Early religion may have been animistic - Not mystic. This again, whether monistic or monotheistic, is a later development of humanity. Even today there is the ongoing debate between the Constructivist schools and the school of the PCE - Pure Consciousness Experience. The former schools, in varying degrees, say that one cannot have a spiritual or mystical experience devoid of any coloring from one's religious, cultural, psychological background. The PCE school says there is a 'Transcendent Unity of Religions' (Frithjof Schuon's title) which utterly transcends any such coloring. There are two opposing schools even today.
The philosphy of religion and the psychology of religion are two disciplines which attempt to discover the truth about such things, but primitive man did not have the same cognitive faculties as moderns, anymore that children have the same cognitive faculties as adults. The 'oneness' of infancy is not the Oneness of psychedelic or Transcendental experience. To believe so is to be guilty of the "Pre-Trans Fallacy" described by Ken Wilber. The animistic spirituality of paleolithic man is lightyears from the mystic spirituality of moderns.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (07/31/02 06:38 PM)
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ViBrAnT
WaRpInG &sPiRaLiNg
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#790419 - 08/01/02 09:48 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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oneness as a child seemed alot more healthy than a seemingly forced upon experience on my last shroom trip, a somewhat impure experience or mybe iv just been blinded for so long by society as to be driven into spiritual shock. seemed on the trip that there was a designed process in this remembering by coming to earth. attempting to reverse the effects of seperatism has been somewhat close dended so far. the people i talk to just smile and nod, they listen but do not hear.
-------------------- " liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "
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Shroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: infidelGOD]
#794297 - 08/03/02 11:42 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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I agree that religion is sometimes the middle man between you and God (sometimes far worse) and that it is good to talk directly with God and have no one between you.
Although some religions, such as the Mormons, say that you should question their beliefs openly and that you should establish an individual relationship with God...I think what I don't like is they think that after you do that you will agree with them entirely.
-------------------- Shroomalicious - I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi
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van0014
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Shroomalicious]
#28334443 - 05/25/23 04:32 PM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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The term 'religion' may have lost it's original meaning. We see it as people who follow beliefs. The Christian Bible, however, conveniently defines what our religion is:
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."
This can be build upon, to look after anyone in need, and to keep our minds clean and positive. Our mindset changes how we behave, and how we feel. A benefit to 'religion' is to have a purpose and meaning, a solid one, that never needs to change foundations. Not changing at a whim. To know how we came to exist, not how we think we got here. Our personal belief doesn't change the past. There's very little evidence of evolution. Where are all the intermediate monkey-human hybrid bones? There are only 'neanderthals'. The Bible says people used to live for 900 years. The evidence for this is found in neanderthals: part of the human skull never stops growing. The brow ridge. This explains an oddly shaped skull, after ~900 years of growth
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Buster_Brown
L'une


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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: van0014]
#28334543 - 05/25/23 05:57 PM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Or maybe we are incapable of assuming the patience of the Sphinx for which a thousand years is like one day, and require adaptive associations.
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Asante
omnicyclion.org admin


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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Buster_Brown]
#28334605 - 05/25/23 06:37 PM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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The trope of the schoolkid putting a book in the back of his pants to mitigate the paddling - thAt is very much the case with most religious people, jamming a holybook inbetween God and them to avoid direct contact with the living God, instead preferring the necrophilia of defining God by what was said to others 2000 years ago, and if someone testifies everybody says Amen which means Shut Up more than anything in many cases.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here
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Buster_Brown
L'une


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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Asante]
#28334688 - 05/25/23 07:44 PM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Lies are the first of our adaptive strategems; providing a basis for the novelties we crave.
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Buster_Brown
L'une


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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Buster_Brown]
#28334704 - 05/25/23 07:59 PM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Unassigned supportive elements can be viewed as a menace to ideas of civil code; which itself can be based on lies.
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FishOilTheKid
Ascended



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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Buster_Brown]
#28344289 - 06/02/23 10:24 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
...the essence of Genesis is not about the fall; it is about transcendence. The serpent does not bring evil into God’s perfect world; it brings wisdom. In addition, Eve is not a weak-willed woman who is responsible for the original sin and humanity’s downfall; she is a courageous spiritual guide who leads humanity to exercise-free will and achieve higher consciousness. https://akjournals.com/view/journals/2054/3/2/article-p142.xml
   
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sudly
Quasar Praiser

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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: van0014]
#28344982 - 06/02/23 09:00 PM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
van0014 said: The term 'religion' may have lost it's original meaning. We see it as people who follow beliefs. The Christian Bible, however, conveniently defines what our religion is:
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."
This can be build upon, to look after anyone in need, and to keep our minds clean and positive. Our mindset changes how we behave, and how we feel. A benefit to 'religion' is to have a purpose and meaning, a solid one, that never needs to change foundations. Not changing at a whim. To know how we came to exist, not how we think we got here. Our personal belief doesn't change the past. There's very little evidence of evolution. Where are all the intermediate monkey-human hybrid bones? There are only 'neanderthals'. The Bible says people used to live for 900 years. The evidence for this is found in neanderthals: part of the human skull never stops growing. The brow ridge. This explains an oddly shaped skull, after ~900 years of growth
Evolution is entirely observable through Lenskis ecoli experiment.
You must be trolling to say something this lacking of context and information.
There are dozens of different stages of ape to human evolution that have already been discovered and catalogued.
This is a flagrant display of not understanding what a common ancestor is.
I hope for your own good this bolded statement is a joke.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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epilectric
light dose


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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: sudly] 2
#28345138 - 06/03/23 01:55 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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chimpanzee's genes are 99% the same as humans, they are basically our siblings. however, i still believe that humans didn't develop by chance but their existence was already inherent in the moment of the big bang, just like the potential existence of a plant, including every stage of its development, is already contained in a seed. it's not the stem that leads to the leaves. it's the seed.
-------------------- i shroomery
https://soundcloud.com/cyberhops
Edited by epilectric (06/03/23 02:01 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: epilectric]
#28345198 - 06/03/23 03:25 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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fortunately I put van0014 on ignore forever. we need the ability to filter out junk in our lives. that may be where the idea of god originally arose, some respectable filter to help reduce the constant threat of noise while living close together.
i.e. god is in the ignoring of details
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epilectric
light dose


Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 2,269
Loc: bliss chamber
Last seen: 5 hours, 13 minutes
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28345223 - 06/03/23 04:02 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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mine was a reply to sudly whom you also ignored if i remember correctly
this reminds me of confession as a cleaning agent in the catholic church...
-------------------- i shroomery
https://soundcloud.com/cyberhops
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 42,105
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: epilectric] 1
#28345309 - 06/03/23 06:26 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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I do not ignore sudly, he is a valued critical thinker. we all have some baggage.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 42,105
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28345314 - 06/03/23 06:32 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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I am Ignored By 14 member(s) My ignore list:
- oursoulsinmotion
- Abigherdofturd
- Sub-Easy
- freewillofchoice
- lowbrow
- whenmistweeps
- teknix
- zixxie
- doolhoofd
- Shrooms4menow
- thealienthatategod
- van0014
Maybe they can band together and do voodoo to me?
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 4,937
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28346606 - 06/04/23 03:33 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: I am Ignored By 14 member(s) My ignore list:
- oursoulsinmotion
- Abigherdofturd
- Sub-Easy
- freewillofchoice
- lowbrow
- whenmistweeps
- teknix
- zixxie
- doolhoofd
- Shrooms4menow
- thealienthatategod
- van0014
Maybe they can band together and do voodoo to me?
i understand exactly
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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CapSlinger


Registered: 05/17/11
Posts: 1,168
Loc: Colorado rocky mountain high
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Ferdinando]
#28346614 - 06/04/23 03:46 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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van0014
Stranger


Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 43
Last seen: 7 months, 17 days
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28378685 - 06/29/23 07:24 AM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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"I am Ignored By 14 member(s)" -RedGreenVines
What do you mean? You may have put me on your ignore list, but I have nobody on mine. To be unbiased, this is important to me
Edited by van0014 (06/29/23 07:26 AM)
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: van0014]
#28378701 - 06/29/23 07:37 AM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
van0014 said: "I am Ignored By 14 member(s)" -RedGreenVines
What do you mean? You may have put me on your ignore list, but I have nobody on mine. To be unbiased, this is important to me
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 4,866
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28379029 - 06/29/23 01:12 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: do voodoo to me?
This is happening to me.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 42,105
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Pinkerton]
#28379092 - 06/29/23 02:14 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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just go into the moment and the light will be too bright for the voodoos
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Pinkerton
Koanist

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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28379093 - 06/29/23 02:19 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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There are more ways of getting into the moment than just meditating, right?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 42,105
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Pinkerton]
#28379104 - 06/29/23 02:28 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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list a few and I'll see
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Pinkerton
Koanist

Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 4,866
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28379765 - 06/30/23 05:17 AM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Not sure if I know any other ways. Do you?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 42,105
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Pinkerton]
#28379769 - 06/30/23 05:22 AM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Not being sure is better than being wrong and certain.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 42,105
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28379771 - 06/30/23 05:23 AM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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uncertainty helps with staying in the moment, while certainty is like an axe or mallet
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 10,329
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Pinkerton] 2
#28379829 - 06/30/23 06:40 AM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pinkerton said: Not sure if I know any other ways. Do you?
It's a realization. Meditation "clears the table". The table IS the moment. But you're technically always in the moment. Where else would you be? Lost in thought?
Realization of the moment is habitual. You could try tying a string to your finger to remind you that you are in the moment.
Strong sensation pulls you into the moment. Nobody diving into a pool is thinking about whether they fed the hamster earlier.
Focus on hobbies tends to get a person out of their head.
Exercise Taste of food Hugs and smiles
Anything that makes you acutely aware of the present moment, where you are, what you're doing, how you feel. These are all things that are happening. Even thought is a happening. Awareness of thought can shift awareness from identification with thought (lost in thought) to seeing it as something that is happening to you, and you are "in the moment".
You are not your thoughts. You are not how you feel or what you're doing. You are the awareness, the thinker, the feeler, the doer. You are not your past or your future. You are the present moment.
-------------------- rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know
'The dragon told you that the knight was the bad guy and you believed him.'
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 42,105
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Rahz]
#28379863 - 06/30/23 07:22 AM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: ... You are not your thoughts. You are not how you feel or what you're doing. You are the awareness, the thinker, the feeler, the doer. You are not your past or your future. You are the present moment.
what if that is all you are? I mean, the mental contents of the mind, on a moment to moment basis, are you anything other than that?
thoughts really includes all mental forms which includes sensation and any perceptions or sequences of perception, including awareness which is the perceptions of what is happening. so really, are you sure you are not your thoughts?
I would tend to leave that as an open ended question.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 10,329
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28379998 - 06/30/23 09:50 AM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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It's not that thought is an alien state of mind but that it can exclude everything else and can produce judgmental statements, fixations, attachment to temporary joy which leads to despair when it doesn't last.
All experience can be categorized as thought but generally speaking, when people describe thought they're talking about momentary linguistic thought... which in itself isn't a problem. The idea of being "lost" in thought is different that being the experiencer of thought.
The ability to concentrate through linguistic thought is valuable but the ability to let it go is equally valuable.
"A hand that can only close is only half a hand"
-------------------- rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know
'The dragon told you that the knight was the bad guy and you believed him.'
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 42,105
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Rahz]
#28380014 - 06/30/23 10:04 AM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Let me ask you this
Quote:
Rahz said: ... The idea of being "lost" in thought is different that being the experiencer of thought.
How is being lost in thought different from experiencing being lost in thought?
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 10,329
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28380189 - 06/30/23 01:01 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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If you don't know you're holding something you can't let go of it.
-------------------- rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know
'The dragon told you that the knight was the bad guy and you believed him.'
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 42,105
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28380200 - 06/30/23 01:17 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: If you don't know you're holding something you can't let go of it.
sure, but the question I had was
Quote:
redgreenvines said: Let me ask you this
Quote:
Rahz said: ... The idea of being "lost" in thought is different that being the experiencer of thought.
How is being lost in thought different from experiencing being lost in thought?
holding and letting go are not in this question, are they? it's crucially specific the way I posed it.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 10,329
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28380421 - 06/30/23 05:08 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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The analogy is that if one sees they are the experiencer of thought they are not lost in it. That is different than having an experience of being lost in thought.
If one knows they are holding something, letting it go is an option.
-------------------- rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know
'The dragon told you that the knight was the bad guy and you believed him.'
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 42,105
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Rahz]
#28380471 - 06/30/23 05:47 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: The analogy is that if one sees they are the experiencer of thought they are not lost in it. That is different than having an experience of being lost in thought.
If one knows they are holding something, letting it go is an option.
if one sees that they are experiencing thought, then one is experiencing seeing and thinking, both, and as things go, they are in a matter of seconds about to experience something else, while awake they are always experiencing something, and that means that the mind has mental contents, and mental contents include what is being seen.
separate from that, the statement, being lost in thought has a value judgement, as if the thinking was taking you off your path or far away from home, and you are lost, or not being how you should be.
I would just say a person is thinking, and leave it at that. Sometimes a person thinks that they are seeing themselves thinking, and this is kinda cool. We are always thinking, but self reflection is always kinda cool. (self reflection is still mental contents or thinking - we are not outside of our minds - we are our minds)
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 10,329
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28380501 - 06/30/23 06:28 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Trying not to get too strict with semantics, an experiencer of thought is not lost because they are aware there are many other things (thoughts included) that they can experience. They can ask, do I want to continue this line of thought?
As the experiencer of this conversation I can let it go.
-------------------- rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know
'The dragon told you that the knight was the bad guy and you believed him.'
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 42,105
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Rahz] 1
#28380528 - 06/30/23 06:49 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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yes you can have questions, they are thoughts or mental content too, and you may even take actions which also are perceptive reflexes, and they are mental contents too.
we established that reflective mental content feels like it has extra presence, which is due to having extra content from other channels, as you said eg. sense channels or associative content.
it is still thinking, for some reason people think that meditating is not thinking, it's just more wide open.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 10,329
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28380560 - 06/30/23 07:17 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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I thought we were past that.
-------------------- rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know
'The dragon told you that the knight was the bad guy and you believed him.'
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 42,105
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Rahz]
#28380612 - 06/30/23 07:58 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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but hey if you are thinking that is one thing if you are reflecting upon yourself thinking that is another if you feel the contact in your body at the same time that is another and if you are hearing the crickets that is another and so on, more presence, more channels getting into your experience but experiencing still is thinking - a series of mental contents arising and passing away.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 10,329
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28381087 - 07/01/23 07:24 AM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Well like I said it's just a semantics issue. I don't believe people think meditating means no mental activity, though there is less as the mind calms. People often think they should have no linguistic thought and it can be very frustrating. "I can't do it!"
-------------------- rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know
'The dragon told you that the knight was the bad guy and you believed him.'
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 42,105
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Rahz]
#28381092 - 07/01/23 07:29 AM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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I think that the calm is more a matter of harmonious activity than less activity, i.e. a middle road levelling of activity
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 10,329
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28381114 - 07/01/23 08:03 AM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Fair enough, but I suspect that middle of the road is burning fewer calories than the stressed out mind.
-------------------- rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know
'The dragon told you that the knight was the bad guy and you believed him.'
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 42,105
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Rahz]
#28381125 - 07/01/23 08:10 AM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Yes, Noise and smoke waste a lot of energy, and make the air bad too
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Pinkerton
Koanist

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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28382050 - 07/02/23 04:22 AM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pinkerton said: There are more ways of getting into the moment than just meditating, right?
I feel like I am going into the moment without doing anything special. Is it the everything feels so real-feeling?
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Moses_Davidson
Non-Prophet



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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Pinkerton]
#28382097 - 07/02/23 06:09 AM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: list a few and I'll see
Quote:
Pinkerton said:
Quote:
Pinkerton said: There are more ways of getting into the moment than just meditating, right?
I feel like I am going into the moment without doing anything special. Is it the everything feels so real-feeling?
Reality should, in theory, be real whether felt or not.
Awareness of reality and the moment can be: 1. a skill of habitual conscious choices 2. induced more easily by fasting from various things 3. induced by mindfulness that one wants to be aware 4. a state that can be learned and practiced from and eventually without microdosing
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill
"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 10,329
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Pinkerton]
#28382101 - 07/02/23 06:15 AM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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The moment is what it is.
-------------------- rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know
'The dragon told you that the knight was the bad guy and you believed him.'
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 42,105
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Pinkerton]
#28382143 - 07/02/23 06:55 AM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pinkerton said:
Quote:
Pinkerton said: There are more ways of getting into the moment than just meditating, right?
I feel like I am going into the moment without doing anything special. Is it the everything feels so real-feeling?
sometimes that description is a close approximation but no single description suffices to explain your journey and effort to go into the moment, and the complexity and extent of tranquility, clarity, or detachment that can be a possible effect.
sure things in a moment can seem accentuatedly real, part of that is that you are absorbed and becoming resonant with your perceptions, and that experiences are beginning to stack up and those perceptions beginning to ramify beyond their usual limits. It can be pretty cool.
This is one of many things that may be experienced as a side effect of concentration.
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Pinkerton
Koanist

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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28382207 - 07/02/23 07:55 AM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Just focusing on getting into the moment, being present, feel the details.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 42,105
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Pinkerton]
#28382291 - 07/02/23 09:06 AM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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fleeting feelings
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FishOilTheKid
Ascended



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Posts: 5,611
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28382565 - 07/02/23 12:33 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Why religion obscures the light of God.
HOLY COMMUNION (UNION WITH GOD) IN FACT IS REGARDED AS ORIGINAL SIN!
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WhoManBeing
Mother's Son.



Registered: 09/01/13
Posts: 4,124
Loc: Oregon
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: FishOilTheKid]
#28382567 - 07/02/23 12:39 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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is the idea of God a religious find? Completely a word tied to and from religion?
-------------------- "Live a decent life," Rolling R.
Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
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FishOilTheKid
Ascended



Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,611
Last seen: 2 days, 17 hours
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: WhoManBeing]
#28382580 - 07/02/23 12:47 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
WhoManBeing said: is the idea of God a religious find? Completely a word tied to and from religion?
Its first inspired by entheogen induced mystical experience.
http://www.egodeath.com
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Pinkerton
Koanist

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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28382696 - 07/02/23 01:56 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: fleeting feelings
Finding the balance.
I wonder who patient 16b is though...
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 42,105
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Pinkerton]
#28382788 - 07/02/23 03:30 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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beats me
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Pinkerton
Koanist

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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28383293 - 07/03/23 07:57 AM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Then why did you write patient 16b?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 42,105
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Pinkerton]
#28383332 - 07/03/23 08:42 AM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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I remember that the number needed some editing, but the idea was a reflex way bat when first issued from my keyboard.
I have to keep things a bit light-hearted you know.
people tend to take everything so seriously these days.
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Pinkerton
Koanist

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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28383616 - 07/03/23 12:28 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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I have to keep things a bit light-hearted you know.
people tend to take everything so seriously these days.
I wish it was that simple for me. Keeping things a bit light-hearted.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 42,105
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Pinkerton]
#28383691 - 07/03/23 01:14 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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enlightenment of the heart.
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Pinkerton
Koanist

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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28383698 - 07/03/23 01:17 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah, THAT IS IT!!! 
I get less and less "scary" feeling in the tummy.
When my heart is ready the stewdent is ready. Right?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Pinkerton]
#28383762 - 07/03/23 02:03 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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I guess that's why it's the heart, it's red
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Pinkerton
Koanist

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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28383790 - 07/03/23 02:26 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Since red is the color of blood, it has historically been associated with sacrifice, danger, and courage. Modern surveys in Europe and the United States show red is also the color most commonly associated with heat, activity, passion, sexuality, anger, love, and joy.
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Moses_Davidson
Non-Prophet



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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Pinkerton]
#28383870 - 07/03/23 03:39 PM (1 year, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pinkerton said: Since red is the color of blood, it has historically been associated with sacrifice, danger, and courage. Modern surveys in Europe and the United States show red is also the color most commonly associated with heat, activity, passion, sexuality, anger, love, and joy.
And corporate-owned chain restaurants.
I think that goes back to ripe fruit and fresh meat-- primal desires of the collective subconscious.
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill
"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain
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