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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Why religion obscures the light of God.
    #787792 - 07/31/02 08:51 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

The way I see it, getting to know God is like going from point A to point B - at least that's the way it should be...

So where is religion in this picture? What role does it play?
The major monotheistic religions of the world presume to help us know God. To guide us along the path...

So where does religion stand?

Religion stands between God and Man

Whether it stands there as a bridge or a barrier is merely a matter of symantics. The simple truth is that religion stands there between point A and point B and it's not about to go anywhere... it snares the unwary seeker, positioning itself where one must pass to get to the Ultimate Destination. Maybe they want God all for themselves, maybe they realize that most of us are not strong enough to truly experience God, maybe they are as lost as the rest of us...

In the time before religion, there was only individual spirituality. God was experienced directly and anyone could know God. There wasn't an entity called "The Church" dictating how we should worship God and how we should live our lives.

Religion will never be pure because it is of the world, not of God. Because it is not pure, it can never represent God. Religion represents humanity, and it isn't painting a pretty picture. It shows just how far we have fallen.

There are some religions that are more enlightened. Some that reject the notion of being "saved" - that there is no salvation, only transcendence. People think these religions are new age but in fact these are the oldest of them all.

I hope that I haven't offended anybody because I know that religous people are generally nice, loving and intelligent people. I was once one of you. Religion does a lot of good, it saves lives and points lost souls in the right direction at least. But religion is not the destination. It is not what you are looking for. There are greater things in store for you if you could look beyond.

It is so sad because there are people I know and love who believe that they are experiencing God when in fact they are experiencing Religion. What's worse is they make no distinction between the two.

God cries because He sees the things we do in His name. He cries because his place in the human psyche has been replaced by a bloated man-made monstrosity. He has been eclipsed by a false idol that is blocking His light that once shined on us all. But religion isn't a complete waste, it points the way for us - but we must not stop there. We have to ride the momentum all the way. We must break through the tangled web of humanity and out the other side. Only then will we once again be in the light.


















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Anonymous

Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #787819 - 07/31/02 09:10 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with you on all points. Couldn't have said it better myself.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #787853 - 07/31/02 09:25 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

In the time before religion, there was only individual spirituality. God was experienced directly and anyone could know God.

I'd like to hear a religious person's words on this. Please.


--------------------
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OfflineTannis
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #787871 - 07/31/02 09:34 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I've always thought of religion and tradition as man's attempts to duplicate "spiritual" experiences. If somebody got something good when this or that happened, then maybe if we do this or that again, another something good might happen.

I think the other purpose of religion and tradition is to teach the young. This is where alot of the corruption leaks in.

Still, if every person could tune into God spiritually.....we would have no need for religion or tradition.....we would constantly experience God.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #787921 - 07/31/02 10:06 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Agreed. Sometimes i wonder what should happen to Catholics if all of them got amnesia and forgot all about the church and their religion. With only the bible in their hands and after reading it, learn it's teachings and ideas and with a free way of thinking, would they make another church ? would they make a church ? Would they rediscover themselfs in something called Catholics ?

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #788009 - 07/31/02 11:06 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #788105 - 07/31/02 11:46 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I really like your post. Could you elaborate just a little on the following point?


We must break through the tangled web of humanity and out the other side. Only then will we once again be in the light.

I'm not trying to tear apart you idea, I would just like to know what this means to you.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #788206 - 07/31/02 12:23 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

It is so sad because there are people I know and love who believe that they are experiencing God when in fact they are experiencing Religion. What's worse is they make no distinction between the two.

You say you believe in God, but in your heart you do not. We have a word for people like you...the mushrikkan, or the hypocrites. A large portion of the Qur'aan talks about the mushrikkan...they claim to believe in God, yet they reject His messengers. God judges you by what you knew and believed when you die. If you never recieved the message of a prophet, and die that way, Allah (Glory be to Him) will judge you as ignorant and allow you into Paradise. If you were raised a Hindu or a Buddhist all your life and never recieved the message of a prophet, Allah (swt) will judge you ignorant and Paradise is yours. If you receive His message at some point in your life, either Christianity, Islam, or Judaism, (the only established messages of today) and you do not submit to that faith, I am sorry friend but Hell is where you will abide.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Zahid]
    #788251 - 07/31/02 12:42 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

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Anonymous

Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Zahid]
    #788315 - 07/31/02 01:05 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

God judges you by what you knew and believed when you die

Considering..you've heard 'the messages' or whatever..
What if you were on mushrooms experiencing everything you've believed in the past then someone came into your house and shot you?
What if you had a case of amnesia right before you died?
What if you die in your sleep while in a dream believing something differently than your 'normal' views?
What if you got knocked on the head real hard and had no views at all?

What if you were just a confused person?


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OfflineLiquidSmoke
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #788328 - 07/31/02 01:10 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Wow.


That's actually a really good post. I agree in many aspects. Very, very good post.


=Religion will never be pure because it is of the world, not of God. Because it is not pure, it can never represent God. Religion represents humanity, and it isn't painting a pretty picture. It shows just how far we have fallen.=


--------------------
"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Zahid]
    #788354 - 07/31/02 01:19 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

"If you receive His message at some point in your life, either Christianity, Islam, or Judaism, (the only established messages of today) and you do not submit to that faith, I am sorry friend but Hell is where you will abide. "

Forgive my humble questions as i need your comment Zahid.

-What if the religion doesn't believe in hell ?
-Do "(the only established messages of today)" have to believe in hell to be the only established messages of today ?
-Is the established message of today necessarly the true and meaninfull message ?
-Why, if there's only one good and assuming (deducting your statment) you believe there's a common hell, there are three different religions claiming to be the true connection with a higher being ? - You can assume they believe in the same god, but their division is the product of differences and disputes between man (this also hapened with several divisions between catholics, "cismas"). So, my other question is, why the need for several ways (religions) to connect to the same god ?
Isn't it better to only believe in the possibility of the existence of god and be good and kind to others, practicing Christs or any other profet like acts but being humble enough to accept the fact that there are people thinking differently wich should be respected and wich you respect them by just being a free thinker, than being blinded and obligated to believe there's a hell you're going to if you don't behave as the word wants you to behave and accepting such word as an absolute truth without the benefit of the doubt ?

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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OfflineLiquidSmoke
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Sclorch]
    #788465 - 07/31/02 02:22 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

OK i think i'm a religious person. I grew up going to church and all. Although i don't buy into much of it as i used to.

Anyways, what a 'religious' person would probably say is that church is the house of God. And as the house of God, only those selected officials we call pedophiles-er priests can 'correctly' and 'clrealy' express the word of God. And that everything else we buy into the world is just temptation and Satan's attempt to distract people from going to church.

Personally, i don't see how this differs from saying the English Monarch is a divinely selected individual who should then rule over all humans. If God, the divine, all-seeing being was to chose someone to rule over humans, God would probably have forseen all the great leaders who WERENT monarchs. Ghandi, MLK, FDR, etc.



--------------------
"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: MAIA]
    #788588 - 07/31/02 03:49 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

-What if the religion doesn't believe in hell ?

Worship pigs until the cows come home, once you learn about the word of God, you'll have no plea of ignorance.

-Do "(the only established messages of today)" have to believe in hell to be the only established messages of today ?

The religions of God yes, because Hell exists, and Hell is a reality, it exists in the teachings of every Prophet.

-Is the established message of today necessarly the true and meaninfull message ?

What message to speak of? Christianity, Judaism, and Islam? Judaism was the first of the three, then came Jesus the Messiah to the Jews, (the Bible also mentions of a future, and last prophet, know as the the Comforter), to top it off with the final messenger, Muhammad, who taught others the true religion of Abraham, only with an Arabic genre. To get an answer to that question that assures every last human, you might as well be asking me if God exists. All I can say to you is Yes, He does exist but this is based on experience (and no, I wasn't feeling an over-euphoric reaction to religion).

-Why, if there's only one good and assuming (deducting your statment) you believe there's a common hell, there are three different religions claiming to be the true connection with a higher being ?

There is a common hell, and all three religions claim to be the true connection because all the followers live by the scriptures (Christians like to think Muslims are going to Hell) which teaches those who reject God are lost. Because of the different messengers, the people who follow these great faiths all clash because they all believe their God is different. Over the years, the message of prophets eventually gets distorted to a gross point (Trinity, Begotten Son, Mary Mother of God, Confession, Tower of Babel) and another messsengers is needed.

Whatever happens in the will of God happens under very intelligent planning. God knew His creations on earth would clash like this, but once again, humans are very flawed beings despite their intelligence. The world is literally a place of chaotic events. Before Muhammad, God has spoken to thousands among thousands of prophets in the past.



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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Zahid]
    #788656 - 07/31/02 04:37 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

really good post infidelGOD... that represents my view on religion almost exactly...

zahid... i would like to argue with you now, but i really need some sleep... i can?t focus beeing as tired as i am... so please excuse... take care yall, im off to bed

namast


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: buttonion]
    #788909 - 07/31/02 06:45 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Thank you all for your words.

Buttonion, what I meant by that statement is that religion is a mass of humanity that lies halfway between God and Man. It's a bloated mass that blocks our view of God's light. What I mean is that we can't stop at religion because we are settling for less. We have to go beyond it because we will never find God in a place where people are.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Zahid]
    #788972 - 07/31/02 07:07 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Zahid, I don't know what to say to you. I know I can't say anything to change your mind, because your faith is very strong.

I have found God despite religion not because of it. I hope the same is true for you.
I have not rejected God's messengers. I believe that Jesus was a true prophet. (I don't know much about Islam, excuse my ignorance). But did Jesus need Christianity to reach God? Did Muhammed need Islam? No, he only needed himself and God - nothing was in the way. Shouldn't we strive to be like Jesus? To be one with God?

What do you mean by "his messengers"? Do you include religion? Has God told you who the true messengers are? I would rather not rely on "messengers" because the messege is already clear to me.

There was a time when only members of the clergy had access to the bible and anyone who wanted to read the word of God had to go to them. Even today, Catholics can't ask God for forgiveness, they must ask a priest. Knowing God shouldn't be so complicated - it shouldn't involve more than two entities (or One if you're a Bhuddist).

Religion complicates a process that used to be simple. It is not evil or intentionally deceptive - it just gets in the way.






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Anonymous

Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Zahid]
    #789124 - 07/31/02 07:49 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Zahid... I am of the belief that hell is a mental and psychological state that one chooses to place themselves into. A fear centered way of living, which indeed can be very sorrowful and miserable. Why, people place themselves into "hell" like ways of living all the time. "Oh feel sorry for me, I am so miserable, everyone else is to blame for my problems, I hate everything, this sucks.." etc etc..
This is not a state of mind that has been forced upon that person, they have chosen to view the world like that based upon their interpretation of reality.

Hell is not a place where one is thrown into for eternity in the afterlife. Hell is self-projected, and can be changed at any time by the individual choosing to remain in that state of being. It is a self-contained prison.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: MAIA]
    #789181 - 07/31/02 08:13 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

As it turns out, the notion of Hell is to be found in the the high religions of Judaism (Sheol; "eternal contempt"), Christianity (obviously), Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism. The first 3 faiths are categorized as 'historical religions,' the second 2 are 'cosmic religions,' and a third category referred to as 'acosmic religions,' are the numerous 'nature religions' loosely called 'Pagan,' 'NeoPagan,' 'Wiccan,' etc. which deify the processes and cycles of nature. This 3rd category of religions generally do not entertain the notion of Hell. The 'Myth of the Eternal Return' is the metaphysic, and cosmic punishment is applied by a bad reincarnation - perhaps one is degraded to an animal raised for slaughter, or a beast of burden, depending upon the former existence.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Why religion obscures the light of God. [Re: Sclorch]
    #789227 - 07/31/02 08:37 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

As soon as one discovers evidence of ritual, one has religion. Paleolithic remains have indicated the painting, binding and ritual burial of Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Spirituality as some kind of singularly defined state of being does not exist in its own right - this is an abstraction that the modern mind can 'distill' or deduce from various outer forms of religion.

Early religion may have been animistic - Not mystic. This again, whether monistic or monotheistic, is a later development of humanity. Even today there is the ongoing debate between the Constructivist schools and the school of the PCE - Pure Consciousness Experience. The former schools, in varying degrees, say that one cannot have a spiritual or mystical experience devoid of any coloring from one's religious, cultural, psychological background. The PCE school says there is a 'Transcendent Unity of Religions' (Frithjof Schuon's title) which utterly transcends any such coloring. There are two opposing schools even today.

The philosphy of religion and the psychology of religion are two disciplines which attempt to discover the truth about such things, but primitive man did not have the same cognitive faculties as moderns, anymore that children have the same cognitive faculties as adults. The 'oneness' of infancy is not the Oneness of psychedelic or Transcendental experience. To believe so is to be guilty of the "Pre-Trans Fallacy" described by Ken Wilber. The animistic spirituality of paleolithic man is lightyears from the mystic spirituality of moderns.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (07/31/02 08:38 PM)


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