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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
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Last seen: 18 years, 11 months
Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from...
    #1114751 - 12/05/02 07:13 PM (19 years, 3 days ago)

This is all entirely opinion and hypothesis and I do not mean to present any of it as fact.

Please read this all (it should literally take you five minutes) and tell me what you think of it, questions, compliments and objections are valued equally.


Death and Destruction do no exist.

Death and destruction are short-term views. We may see something change forms and then call it death, but really all it has done is change. This philosophy is based both in spirituality and science. As far as the science aspect of it goes, as any scientist knows matter cannot be created or destroyed, it can merely change form and sometimes become energy, however nothing ever seizes to exist. All matter is consistent, what was originally will always be and there is nothing that anyone or anything can ever do to change that. Any destruction can also be viewed as creation. One may say that a star has died or been destroyed, but it can also be said that the so-called "death" of a star is really just creation. Basically, what happens when a star dies is its own helium/hydrogen core either runs out or explodes, leaving behind all of its matter to create new things. Some popular names for these new things are "White dwarf" stars, neutron star and the recently proven to exist, black holes. All that was the star still is, it is just in different places and different forms. When a star explodes it can factually be said, "Look at all that is being created". Also, as the star "lives" it also spawns creation. Creation never stops, and destruction never takes place. Plants my "die" but as we all know, dead plants make great soil. All that was the plant still is, it is just in different places and different forms. Different, but the same. The plant has changed into something else, but no part of the plant is no longer in existence. Oceans may dry up, but they become gas.

As to the spiritual side, if, as I believe it is, our true nature is spirit not body and we know that our body can be part of the creation/destruction system of continual existence then it could be assumed that our spirit could do the same. Perhaps our spirit is an island unto itself; perhaps it is an always-evolving morphing spirit. Either way, I conclude that Death is a myth, a one dimensionalized view that has been greatly exaggerated. We don't seize to be, we merely change.

Some might say that destruction and creation exist together, in harmony, in a yin and yang like inter relationship. I say destruction is just a term for creation, so ultimately it is all creation anyway. However, it can also be said that creation is another word of destruction. A growing plant can be viewed as a "dead seed", after all the seed is no longer a seed. It can also be said that creation and destruction doesn't exist, only change. Things change from one thing into another. The initial change is generally labeled destruction and the following change is labeled creation, but as I have stated no matter is destroyed or created, simply changed. Call it what you will, creation/destruction/birth/death we are talking about the same thing.
I chose to say that death and destruction do not exist because I believe that the traditional idea of death and destruction really doesn't exist. People view death and destruction as seizing to be, the absence of anything, and that truly does not exist. If scientific law really is applicable to all things and consistent throughout all existent, and science and spirituality are two in the same and play by the same rules, as Einstein always thought, then there is no reason to believe you seize to be when you die, in fact all indicators point to the opposite. We do spiritually and physically, live forever. We are eternal and we are part of the continuous creation that is the inheriting nature of existence. We are eternal creation, ever creating, never destroying.


Who created the first creation? Where is God from? Where do we come from?

After deep mediation, contemplation and even scientific research I have come to an interesting conclusion. If all matter can neither be created nor destroyed, as basic scientific law states, then the answer to how was the original matter created is simple...it wasn't. It has always been. Creation doesn't exist. Neither does destruction.

Humans feel it is logical that all things have a starting point, but why? Where does anything really start? If all matter is consistant, then nothing has ever been created. Take a look at some processes in nature. Water becomes gas; gas becomes water in a continuous cycle...where does it start? It doesn't. There isn't a starting point; there isn't an ending point. It simply exists that way. I have come to hypothesize that the true nature of everything is a continuum, a circle. Look at the rock cycle; rocks are melted and then hardened forming igneous rocks. Igneous rocks are then, eventually, subjected to heat and pressure and become Metamorphic. When the process of nature weather these rocks down into tiny particles they settle and eventually lithophy and become Sedimentary. These rocks can then be melted and then harden and become igneous, or they can be partially melted and become metamorphic. Any of the three rocks can become any of the other rocks. Where does it start? It doesn't. Where does it end? It doesn't. It's a process.

Beginning, middle and end are terms we create to define time. If the universe never began, and it will never end, then there is no middle. Therefore, I hypothesize that time doesn't exist. We comprehend things with only what is familiar to us. We tend to define things by what they mean to us. In other words, if we don't think it affects us, it isn't important. As far as our interests go, the period of time the Earth will be around does have a beginning, a middle and an end, at least in terms of the actually planet before its form changes, what some might call "the destruction of the Earth". So the theory of time is applicable to Earth. So since the terms beginning, middle and end do apply to that, we accept them. They also apply to the time we are alive and the time are friends are alive, as well as the time we are at work and until we get home. However, I think we make the mistake of thinking that the terms beginning, middle and end apply to everything because it applies to everything we think about, and so everything must have a beginning, middle and end. This isn't necessarily true. If all matter cannot be created or destroyed then there is no beginning, middle and end to matter. Since the universe is made up of matter than there must be no beginning, middle and end to that as well. We are not use to thinking in those terms but I think they are quite factual, if not unconventional. If time is defined as the period between beginning and ending, and there is no ending...if there is no ending then there can be no time. If you define time as change than you might find this confusing. Change and time are different, time is a measured period and change is simply measure of difference from one form to another. Change is physical time is not, it is mental, or rather all in the mind. The universe was never created, neither was God and neither were we is what my hypothesis is. Existence always was and always will be and time does not apply to it.


Tell me what you think?


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Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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Anonymous

Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1114763 - 12/05/02 07:17 PM (19 years, 3 days ago)

Excellent.

I hope you dont mind me throwing this idea out here..

Being omnipresent and eternal, time has no meaning, function, place, or purpose. So there is only one moment of infinite possibility. Just an idea.

Very nice, five shrooms for you.


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: ]
    #1114777 - 12/05/02 07:24 PM (19 years, 3 days ago)

New ideas are great. By all means, interject all you want.

I would give you 5 mushrooms except I already did.


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Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineGrowingVines
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1114829 - 12/05/02 07:48 PM (19 years, 3 days ago)

I agree with you on this subject. Great thread by the way. You basically took the words out of my mouth and posted them before i did... Kudos man...Kudos...i am gonna be doing some heavy meditaion soon and hope to come back to help enlighten you as you have me.


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Peace out my brothers, for everyone has a bit of insanity in them


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: GrowingVines]
    #1114943 - 12/05/02 08:25 PM (19 years, 3 days ago)

i am gonna be doing some heavy meditaion soon and hope to come back to help enlighten you as you have me.

Absolutely. I'll look forward to it man. :smile: 


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1114972 - 12/05/02 08:30 PM (19 years, 3 days ago)

I believe this as well. I could have written it all out like you have a while ago, but I find writing something like this to take up too much time - It's like I have memorized all my writings after I pieced the puzzle tougather. Now I have a foundation to think on.

Time is however, a concept most everyone in the material world believes in. I have to conform to an extant.

-Chaos loops.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineSnuffelzFurever
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1114987 - 12/05/02 08:33 PM (19 years, 3 days ago)

once, when tripping on mushrooms, i smoked salvia
i took out a sheet of paper, and drew a plain graph
on this graph, i quickly discovered how to make math interwine itself with conciousness to create time, and go on infinitely, but somehow still end.
i graphed a sine wave going from -1 to 1, and then back again, but inverted. it was an infinite sign. it was all crazy and mind-awakening and whatever and crap, lol.
but what im trying to get at is that somehow, it is possible that the concept of infinite exists, whether we understand it or not. time can have a capital T to differentiate the beginning of Time, and the notion of time that humans have. Everything, with the sine-wave-graph-inverted-thingy-infinite-sign-epiphany-from-mushrooms, collapses on itself and begins upon itself again. all within the oneness of the universe (what since 1 is the largest number a sine wave can go on the y axis), and the binary essence of life... very weird, maybe im not making sense. i'm not going to reread this and edit it so that it makes sense, and im sorry, lol. but it should kinda come together.
time as humans make it out to be doesnt exist. but Time can exist on the graph, as a science we will never comprehend, until we all get together and do mushrooms :-)

I think.


--------------------
"I think it's time we stop
Children, What's the sound,
Everybody look what's going down"


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1115131 - 12/05/02 08:59 PM (19 years, 3 days ago)

i must agree. i figured this out when i asked myself... when did i start? o yeah i dont remember when i was born, i cant think that far back nor before birth. then i thought about my death... well i wont know when i die cause i will be dead, and obviously not doing my normal routine. you dont know when it starts and you dont know when it ends. i realized this is like time and existence it never began and it never will end, your reality and existence is based on the memories and perceptions that you have of it.  but theres always questions that go beyond death, or beyond our current understanding. so i must also agree with murex, i feel myself that i have learned way to much and that i am simply like a new mushroom with a solid foundation just waiting to grow and open its veil :smile:


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What?


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1115313 - 12/05/02 09:45 PM (19 years, 3 days ago)

I have thought the same things. :cool:
I agree with you 100%



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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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Anonymous

Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1115555 - 12/05/02 11:28 PM (19 years, 3 days ago)

I didnt state it in my first post, but I also agree very much with that idea. Me and a good friend pondered over this idea for a while, till we came to the same conclusion.

It makes sense, perfect sense. And so much fits within it. And all that makes sense, too.

I keep trying to articulate my thoughts but I cant do it, oh well.. maybe some other time.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: SnuffelzFurever]
    #1115722 - 12/06/02 12:30 AM (19 years, 3 days ago)

I too have had this "epiphany" however take it 1 step further and see that not only do the integers 1 and -1 cancel but the graph you describe is a "cancelled" wave (the theory behind white noise) It is only our "creation" of reality that tips the balance in order that we might experience physicality.Without conscousness to give it form your graph descrbes the infinite nothingness of possibility from which we derive reality.Very Cool  :wink:WR 


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To old for this place


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: whiterasta]
    #1116030 - 12/06/02 01:59 AM (19 years, 3 days ago)

I guess that would be proof of a spirit. Great post!


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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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Offlineakyouser_oner
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1116465 - 12/06/02 09:27 AM (19 years, 2 days ago)

the beginning of time is right now. wait, NOW. NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOWNOWNOWNOWNOWNOWNOWNOWNOWNOW. infinite. how large is the universe? if it ends, what's outside of it? infinity.


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-akyouser.oner
<(((((((((((((((@~~~


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1117135 - 12/06/02 02:20 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

"Nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is transformed."
Antoine-Laurent de Lavoisier

This particular theory is also based in the assumption of the existence of a primal element or essence, the bound to the whole or universal existence. The greeks were the first to follow this line of thinking although evolutionists like Lavoisier restudy and applied this theory to its scientific line of work.
You have good points in you reasonning but,
In reply to:

Either way, I conclude that Death is a myth, a one dimensionalized view that has been greatly exaggerated. We don't seize to be, we merely change



Maybe not one dimensionalized but linear. Our perception of existence (in this reality) is linear, we born, live and die. We can assume other planes of reality and existence but we'll be just assuming.

In reply to:

I chose to say that death and destruction do not exist because I believe that the traditional idea of death and destruction really doesn't exist.



You cannot choose, death and destruction chooses you. Reality does not exist by what we believe about it, it exists by itself and afect us believing on it or not.

In reply to:

If scientific law really is applicable to all things and consistent throughout all existent, and science and spirituality are two in the same and play by the same rules,



If scientific law could be applied to all things (wich i personally don't believe), that would outrun most of the spiritual concepts, so they might be two in the same but they're applied differently to the same things or applied exclusivelly to specific things.

In reply to:

We do spiritually and physically, live forever.



Perhaps but both at the same time do not live forever. That would make us "gods".

In reply to:

I have come to hypothesize that the true nature of everything is a continuum, a circle.



Not everything, but everything that matters is, it's my personal believe. The question is , what's that matters ?

In reply to:

Beginning, middle and end are terms we create to define time. If the universe never began, and it will never end, then there is no middle. Therefore, I hypothesize that time doesn't exist.



The problem is that you cannot live without time (at least in our mental framework), so in this reality time MUST exist so we can exist.

MAIA




--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: MAIA]
    #1117590 - 12/06/02 04:26 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

Well said!  Well done!

Nice to see you posting with us! :smile:


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: MAIA]
    #1117629 - 12/06/02 04:39 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

Thanks once again to everyone who posted any comments, particularly those who posted additional ideas.

I am surprised and pleased these ideas were so accepted. :smile:

You cannot choose, death and destruction chooses you. Reality does not exist by what we believe about it, it exists by itself and affect us believing on it or not.

I do not mean that I choose death, I mean I choose to say that death doesn't exist based on the idea that the traditional definition of death doesn't exist, in my opinion. Just a matter of syntax.

If scientific law could be applied to all things (which i personally don't believe), that would outrun most of the spiritual concepts, so they might be two in the same but they're applied differently to the same things or applied exclusivelly to specific things.

This is the point I figured was going to be debated the most. I don't think that spirituality and science are opposites. Some say that any spiritual experience is just tricks of the pineal gland and frontal lobes...why does that eliminate the spirituality of it? Why can it not be both? Why can it not be activated by the spirit and carried out by the body? In this way I think spirituality and science are the same.

I think some of the current scientific laws may not be applicable to everywhere and everything, but my belief is that is because it is an untrue law. A true, or perfect, scientific law would be applicable to everything, in my opinion.

Einstein once said,  "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." I to think you can and must combine the two in order to come to a real conclusion. By that I mean stricly in personal exploration, not legal Governing.

However, its all opinion...there can be no "proof".

Perhaps but both at the same time do not live forever. That would make us "gods".

By physically I just mean our particles live on, although they change. Besides, perhaps we are Gods.

The problem is that you cannot live without time (at least in our mental framework), so in this reality time MUST exist so we can exist.

Like I said, time exists, but only in our minds. Almost all people on Earth think in terms of daytime and their body. Time is applicable to those, therefore it is real to those. Yet, my idea is our true nature is spirit not body and to the spirit there is no death, therefore no time. Therefore the true nature of existence is, literally, timeless.

All some of my crazy theories at least. :smile: 


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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Offlinedumlovesyou
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1117651 - 12/06/02 04:49 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

Hey.. Cool post.. Nothing to add.. maybe.. 
After deep mediation, contemplation and even scientific research I have come to an interesting conclusion.

No tripping? Not that this would be the only way.. But helps a lot!! :smile: SHROOM ON!!


--------------------
I see trees of green, psylocibe mushrooms too
I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself what a wonderful world


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OfflineRemy
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1117801 - 12/06/02 05:44 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

Your theory is very well worded, however there are two major flaws in your theory.

In reply to:

As far as the science aspect of it goes, as any scientist knows matter cannot be created or destroyed, it can merely change form and sometimes become energy, however nothing ever seizes to exist.




This is not true. Matter is constantly being created and destroyed. You are right that matter=energy, but there are numerous elementary particles that exist for less than a second.

In reply to:

If scientific law really is applicable to all things and consistent throughout all existent, and science and spirituality are two in the same and play by the same rules, as Einstein always thought, then there is no reason to believe you seize to be when you die, in fact all indicators point to the opposite.




One of the greatest discoveries of the 20th century was that scientific laws do not exsist, and the laws of physics only govern groups of matter. Individual elementary particles are not governed by any physical laws (however we can predict group behavior thanks to statistics).

I will agree with you that time is a one dimensional (linear) view of things as they are and that science and spirituality are the same thing. My personal belief is that matter=spirit=energy, and that their exists a universal conciousness (there is scientific evidence of this) that is spirit, and thus god. I also believe that every time matter is destroyed, new matter is created, as not to upset the delicate balance of everything.


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Remy]
    #1117985 - 12/06/02 06:41 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

This is not true. Matter is constantly being created and destroyed. You are right that matter=energy, but there are numerous elementary particles that exist for less than a second.

My understanding of this is that those particles become energy, they may not be
"physical" but they do still exsist.

One of the greatest discoveries of the 20th century was that scientific laws do not exsist, and the laws of physics only govern groups of matter. Individual elementary particles are not governed by any physical laws (however we can predict group behavior thanks to statistics).

What I am saying is that a "true" scientific law does hold up to all things. If our scientfic laws do not it is only because they are incomplete or untrue, not because scientific law itself does not exsist.

I could definitely be wrong about these things but that is a tremendous part of the reason I shared this with everyone, if I am proven to be wrong, horray for me! My theories get updated and improved, and thus more applicable. :smile:


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineRemy
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1118052 - 12/06/02 07:03 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

This is not true. Matter is constantly being created and destroyed. You are right that matter=energy, but there are numerous elementary particles that exist for less than a second.

My understanding of this is that those particles become energy, they may not be
"physical" but they do still exsist.
All masons, some leptons, and some barysons directly violate the law of the conservation of mass-energy (see Einstein's special theory of relativity), in that they are constantly being created and then disappearing, and their energy equivalent only exists while the particles are in existence.

Quote:

What I am saying is that a "true" scientific law does hold up to all things. If our scientfic laws do not it is only because they are incomplete or untrue, not because scientific law itself does not exsist.





In that case, I believe that the only scientific law that holds up to everything, is that there are no laws.

Quote:

  could definitely be wrong about these things but that is a tremendous part of the reason I shared this with everyone, if I am proven to be wrong, horray for me! My theories get updated and improved, and thus more applicable. 




Everything I am saying is meant as constructive criticisms, to help you build and advance your theories.  :smile: 


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Offlinevaporbrains
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: ]
    #1118555 - 12/06/02 11:05 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

god is the product of a fear reaction.


--------------------
All refrences to and statements concerning mushrooms, mushroom cultivation, and mushroom related paraphrenalia refer specifically to the cultivation of legal species.


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OfflineShroomalicious
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: vaporbrains]
    #1118865 - 12/07/02 12:58 AM (19 years, 2 days ago)

god is the product of a fear reaction.

There is no more proof of that theory then there is the theory of God.

I could just as easily say that NOT believing in God is a reaction to wanting to be rebellious...although I don't believe that myself.

I am not saying your statement is untrue or unappreciated I am just saying that there is as much "physical" evidence to support the theory of God that there is to support your theory. Therefore, I respect both theories equally.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1146785 - 12/16/02 07:57 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

We may see something change forms and then call it death, but really all it has done is change.



Then you shouldn?t mind if someone shot you or a loved one to ?death?, since no one actually dies, they just change.

Sure, you can alter the standard definition of death, but I don?t think it really changes our perception of the world. I believe death occurs when the conscious mind ceases to exist, not when the matter in the body ceases to exist (which as you stated, is never). If we call that point in time when consciousness ceases to exist something other than death, as you propose, I don?t see how that changes its significance.

The same argument can be made of the soul. If the soul changes forms, to me that?s as significant as the death of the soul itself, regardless of how you choose to define it.

In reply to:

Beginning, middle and end are terms we create to define time. If the universe never began, and it will never end, then there is no middle. Therefore, I hypothesize that time doesn't exist.



I would agree with you that the time the universe has existed might not be definable, nor is the time that it will continue to exist. However, time can certainly be defined in intervals. If someone is born in 1900, and the year is 1950, then we can say 50 years of time has past since their birth. Regardless, this doesn?t change the conclusion of your hypothesis, that ?The universe was never created, neither was God and neither were we?. That seems like a reasonable conclusion to me (assuming that God exists, and that ?we? is defined by our matter, and not our conciousness; a definition that I don't really care for, although you can define "we" anyway you like).


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1146800 - 12/16/02 08:01 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Nice thoughts. It's impossible to make sense out of nonsense.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1146803 - 12/16/02 08:02 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"there is as much "physical" evidence to support the theory of God that there is to support your theory."

Hopefully you mean NONE.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1147003 - 12/16/02 08:53 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

What about the evidence that I believe we are all one after taking shrooms, then I come to the Shroomery and people here say the same thing?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Murex]
    #1147021 - 12/16/02 08:59 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

argh now we get into the "definition of god" talk again - disregard my above post please - its going to be useless if people are just using the definition "god is everything - god is existence"


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1147086 - 12/16/02 09:15 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I think you misunderstood my post.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Murex]
    #1147154 - 12/16/02 09:51 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

lol do you understand my post? i'm confused


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1147178 - 12/16/02 10:03 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Me too.  :blush:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Murex]
    #1147195 - 12/16/02 10:13 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I was trying to say there's no physical evidence that God exists, which was proven wrong by you (without you intending to do so apparently) by saying what I thought meant "god is everything - everything is here so thats pretty good evidence"


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineRemy
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1147202 - 12/16/02 10:16 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

- its going to be useless if people are just using the definition "god is everything - god is existence"





I think that it is highly likely that this, in fact, is the case. In other words, on the subatomic level, everything is one universal conciousness. Of course god could also be what physics would refer to as the fourth dimension, the coordinate plane that the entire universe lies on.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Remy]
    #1147219 - 12/16/02 10:27 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

why call it "god" then if its going to end up taking such a scientific meaning that has never been conventionally implied?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineShroomalicious
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1147266 - 12/16/02 11:26 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Then you shouldn&#8217;t mind if someone shot you or a loved one to &#8220;death&#8221;, since no one actually dies, they just change.

I NEVER said that if someone shot a loved one that I wouldn't mind. I never ever said that. I never implied that. I never meant that. I never pretended that. I never said anything like that. What I said was, death wasn't the end. What we call "death" is really just a change, and a sudden change can be terribly disruptive and emotionally hard to come to terms with. So, yes I would mind if someone I loved was shot, but I believe it would not be goodbye.

Please, friend, stick with what I actually DO say, there is still plenty to pick apart. :smile:

Sure, you can alter the standard definition of death, but I don&#8217;t think it really changes our perception of the world.

Have you ever been to a funeral at a church where they don't believe in the afterlife? Have you been to one where they do? There is an astonishing difference in how the death is delt with and thought about. I think your definition of death is very important to how you perceive the world. How could it not be? If you thought death was the end and it was goodbye or if you thought death was more of, "I'll see you later" it significantly changes your perception of the world, in my opinion.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineShroomalicious
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1147267 - 12/16/02 11:29 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Hopefully you mean NONE.

I do actually.

I believe in God, but I can't prove it. Those who don't believe in God can't prove he DOESN'T exsist, IMO.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1147291 - 12/17/02 12:03 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

I NEVER said that if someone shot a loved one that I wouldn't mind



Well, you said you ?believe that the traditional idea of death and destruction really doesn't exist?. I guess I?m having a difficult time trying to understand the point you are trying to make. I completely agree with you that matter goes on forever, but I don't understand why that should make me feel better about death. Should I be happier knowing that my death will bring new life to worms? Isn?t that what you implied when you said ?any destruction can also be viewed as creation.?.
In reply to:

I think your definition of death is very important to how you perceive the world. How could it not be? If you thought death was the end and it was goodbye or if you thought death was more of, "I'll see you later" it significantly changes your perception of the world, in my opinion.



I absolutely agree. But if the ?see you later? is nothing more than my molecules continuing to exist with my loved one?s molecules, perhaps in the form of a worm, that doesn?t make me feel much better.
I think what you were trying to do (correct me if I?m wrong) is to draw a parallel between matter?s continued existence and the soul?s. That?s why I said ?The same argument can be made of the soul. If the soul changes forms, to me that?s as significant as the death of the soul itself, regardless of how you choose to define it.? In other words, I wouldn?t feel better about my soul unless it continued to exist AS MYSELF, rather than changing into something else.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineRemy
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1147964 - 12/17/02 07:42 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

What happens to the soul is probably one of, if not the greatest mystery of all. It can definetely be unnerving to think that our consciousness ceases to exist, especially in the frame of how small we are in universe such as the one we live in. It is possible that the true origin of religion is just a provided comfort that our souls continue to exist beyond death.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1148133 - 12/17/02 08:38 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Shroomalicious,

you may have missed the burden of proof thread a while back....

I'll point out the burden of proof for you:

Person A: I believe there is something called God.
Person B: Proove it.
Person A: Proove it DOESN'T exist <-ah-ha!! ah! right there you're denying your own claim. You can't push the burden of proof back onto the "objectioner." Basically I guess what it comes down to is that when people say "There is a God" they are making a claim that has absolutely NO support, depending on the definition of God..

When somebody makes a claim that something EXISTS, and is asked to prove it, replying with "well you can't prove it DOESN'T exist" is kind of against social rules - you made the claim - you back it up. If I claim that God is a human invention, then maybe that when you can ask me to prove it, but if somebody claims God exists, they have to back up that claim, not ask the skeptic to do a similarly impossible task.

See I could make the claim that you are completely insane and never have any idea whats going on ever. You could say something like "hahaa thats bullshit.." and I could say "prove its not true. prove you're not a complete loon." thats just a bullshit situation - I should have to prove that you're crazy, not the other way around - after-all I made the claim. That being said, I don't believe you're crazy I was just using that as example.

-=- Matt/Strumpling -=-
a: There were green elves dancing in my bedroom last night
b: yeah right.. prove there were green elves dancing in your bedroom
a: Prove there WEREN'T....
b: hey don't push your burden of proof back on ME pal


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Remy]
    #1148173 - 12/17/02 08:47 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

It is possible that the true origin of religion is just a provided comfort that our souls continue to exist beyond death. 




Remy, I couldn't agree more!  :wink: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1148176 - 12/17/02 08:49 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

My proof for the existence of "God" is existence itself.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: ]
    #1148191 - 12/17/02 08:54 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

so we have a difference in opinion concerning the definition of God.

people's definitions are way more unconventional nowadays... I'm fine with that - have fun with God


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: ]
    #1148192 - 12/17/02 08:54 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

C'mon Max. Are you being serious? That's like saying the tooth fairy exists because we have teeth.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1148209 - 12/17/02 08:59 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

No, you misunderstood me. To me, existence is God. All that exists came from something, and the source is what I consider God. "All that is", whatever you want to call it.


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: ]
    #1148222 - 12/17/02 09:04 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Gotcha.  God = Existence.  That makes more sense, but it sort of makes the term "God" irrelevant.

If "all that exists came from something", and if God exists, then God must have come from something.  I'm sure if ?God? was more than existence alone, and had the ability to think, he'd be pondering the same question about himself as we are about ourselves - "where did I come from?"  :grin:


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


Edited by GoBlue! (12/17/02 09:26 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1148397 - 12/17/02 10:11 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I think your definition of death is very important to how you perceive the world.

Agreed, but your negative or positive perception of death does nothing to change its nature. An afterlife does or does not exist independent of your viewpoint.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineShroomalicious
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1148466 - 12/17/02 11:00 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Well, you said you "believe that the traditional idea of death and destruction really doesn't exist".

Yes, I did say THAT. That isn't the same as, "I don't mind if you murder someone I love".

I guess I'm having a difficult time trying to understand the point you are trying to make. I completely agree with you that matter goes on forever, but I don't understand why that should make me feel better about death. Should I be happier knowing that my death will bring new life to worms? Isn't that what you implied when you said 'any destruction can also be viewed as creation."

I think I see where we are not communicating. I mean that like matter our "spirit" (call it what you will) goes on too. I am saying both go on, not just the physical but the spiritual.

I think what you were trying to do (correct me if I'm wrong) is to draw a parallel between matter's continued existence and the soul's.

100% correct. That is EXACTLY what I am trying to do.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineShroomalicious
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1148493 - 12/17/02 11:10 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You can't push the burden of proof back onto the "objectioner."

Why not? Who made that rule? Also, "person B" asked "person A" to prove something, A is demanding proof that God does exist so why is it not okay for B to demand proof that God doesn't???

Basically I guess what it comes down to is that when people say "There is a God" they are making a claim that has absolutely NO support

I agree. However, I would say this, they have as much evidence as the Atheist does.

When somebody makes a claim that something EXISTS, and is asked to prove it, replying with "well you can't prove it DOESN'T exist" is kind of against social rules

What social rules are these? Who said there was one and only one way to have a debate? Besides, we are talking about God here, "proper procedure" for how to debate God seems rather pointless, in my opinion.

See I could make the claim that you are completely insane and never have any idea whats going on ever. You could say something like "hahaa thats bullshit.." and I could say "prove its not true. prove you're not a complete loon." thats just a bullshit situation - I should have to prove that you're crazy, not the other way around - after-all I made the claim. That being said, I don't believe you're crazy I was just using that as example.

I think this story proves my point as well. Just because you can't prove something doesn't mean it isn't true. I can't prove God is real, but it can't be disproved either.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineShroomalicious
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Swami]
    #1148506 - 12/17/02 11:13 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Agreed, but your negative or positive perception of death does nothing to change its nature. An afterlife does or does not exist independent of your viewpoint.

Also agreed. I was talking about how we look at Death, not how Death looks at us.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1148531 - 12/17/02 11:20 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Maybe all religions are correct for those who believe them. I mean, maybe people will go to a different dimension according to what religion they believe? Like manifest destany or something- you do good and believe you will go to heaven like a good little christian and then your afterlife is the 'christian heaven dimension'.

Just a thought.  :tongue: 


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1148699 - 12/17/02 12:18 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I mean that like matter our "spirit" (call it what you will) goes on too. I am saying both go on, not just the physical but the spiritual.

That's what I thought you were saying. My point is that if our spirit follows a parallel path with our matter, then as your matter changes from ?Shroomalicious? to worms, so too will your soul will change from a ?Shroomalicious? soul to a worm soul. Personally, I?d rather my soul stay ?GoBlue!? forever, and if that goes away I couldn?t care less if the soul itself went on forever.

If, as I believe it is, our true nature is spirit not body and we know that our body can be part of the creation/destruction system of continual existence then it could be assumed that our spirit could do the same.

I never actually understood why you believe this assumption to be true, but I?m going along with it for the sake of discussion.

I was talking about how we look at Death, not how Death looks at us.

How we look at death is imaginary. We can look at death any way we like. How death looks at us is real. Looking at death a certain way can make you feel a whole lot better about it, but it won?t change what will actually happen.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Murex]
    #1148757 - 12/17/02 12:37 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Maybe all religions are correct for those who believe them.

Na, that'd be too convenient.  I mean, in that case you'd just believe in the religion that was most convenient for you.  I'd believe in a religion where I can behave anyway I like on earth, and I'll still have the ultimate nirvana to look forward to after I die.  Ya, that's it!  That's my new religion!!!  :cool: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: ]
    #1148858 - 12/17/02 01:14 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Nice discussion.  Polite, intelligent, and interesting. :smile:

You guys are doing a great job!


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Offlinedjamor
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1149048 - 12/17/02 02:18 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"hmmm...I find what you say intriqueing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter! "

Thanks for posting such a thought-provoking thread! I agree with a lot of what you said, but where do you go with that philosophy? Teleologically (looking to the end result) speaking, I mean. If such philosophy alleviates your fear of death, then more power to ya! If it leads you to be sitting in your arm-chair oblivious and uncaring of what's going on in the world (because "ultimately it doesn't matter") then that's something different. GoBlue had a point, someone who loses a loved one (thru violence or otherwise) shouldn't feel bad according to that philosophy, but simply mourn the loss of the companionship, comradery and spiritual union that that being provided on a daily basis.

I think many people are too sure of science. And no, the alternative is not to reject science altogether. Remember, scientists often 'correct' previous scientific 'fact' only to be 'corrected' themselves later down the road. Realize that science is (or should be) the on-going search for truth, then scientic 'law' becomes 'the best theory', not 'scientific fact'. An open mind is a terrible thing to close, especially in the name of science.

You're theory also leaves out the big question; "why?". But that's ok, most theories do.
Spirituality attempts to answer why, and often succeeds, although that answer is often considered subjective by others. We will probably never agree on why the universe exists, but that's ok, I don't think life would be fun if we had all the answers. But don't take that to mean we shouldn't ask the questions.

"Maybe all religions are correct for those who believe them. I mean, maybe people will go to a different dimension according to what religion they believe? Like manifest destany or something- you do good and believe you will go to heaven like a good little christian and then your afterlife is the 'christian heaven dimension'. -Just a thought. "
Good thought, Murex! There's many implications to that.
I personally believe in one god with infinite faces, not defined or confined by the books written by man. I believe that god is neither man nor woman, god is god. To me god is everything that was, is, or ever will be. god is chaos and order; indeed, god is the universe. god is why a molecule can exist; why a proton is attracted to an electron. In essence, god is. And admittedly, god is "that which we are unable to understand".
God, however- God is the christian (or other organized religions') book-based interpretation of god. That's my take on it, and yeah, it's a capital letter difference, in case you didn't catch that. In my opinion, talking about and appreciating god is worthwhile, but if you're gonna preach the "word of God" - keep it to yourselves, your self-righteous crap is fucking up this world.

And death? Death is change, change exists...so death exists. It's just not understood.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1149072 - 12/17/02 02:26 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I mean, in that case you'd just believe in the religion that was most convenient for you. I'd believe in a religion where I can behave anyway I like on earth, and I'll still have the ultimate nirvana to look forward to after I die. Ya, that's it! That's my new religion!!!

Have you heard of christianity?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineMurex
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: djamor]
    #1149084 - 12/17/02 02:31 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I wasn't meaning to preach. I really don't believe what I posted- it was just a thought to get some gears turning.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: djamor]
    #1149427 - 12/17/02 04:11 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for posting such a thought-provoking thread!

Thank you for the compliment and especially for reading it.

If it leads you to be sitting in your arm-chair oblivious and uncaring of what's going on in the world (because "ultimately it doesn't matter") then that's something different.

However, I didn't say that. I said specifically that it isn't that it doesn't matter, death matters it just isn't what many think it is. That is all I said. Death matters, it just isn't the end of everything.

GoBlue had a point, someone who loses a loved one (thru violence or otherwise) shouldn't feel bad according to that philosophy, but simply mourn the loss of the companionship, comradery and spiritual union that that being provided on a daily basis.

That isn't what I said at all. All I said was death wasn't the end of existence, I NEVER said I don't mind if I lose a companion or I don't mind if someone kills my family. I just said death isn't the end. According to my philosophy you can definitely feel bad when someone dies, where did I say you couldn't feel bad if someone you love dies? My opinion is, death is a big change, and those changes can be traumatic and you DO lose a companion, but it isn't goodbye forever.

I think many people are too sure of science. And no, the alternative is not to reject science altogether.

Practically the whole basis of what I wrote was how I thought science and spirituality are best combined. Where did I say we should do away with science? I don't think that and I don't believe I ever said that.

Realize that science is (or should be) the on-going search for truth, then scientic 'law' becomes 'the best theory', not 'scientific fact'.

Much agreed. Very much!

You're theory also leaves out the big question; "why?".

My theory is that the universe is here, it has always been here and will always be here. It was never created and can never be destroyed, so the "Why?" question is irrelevant, in my opinion. The universe wasn't created to prove a point (for a purpose), it wasn't created at all so there is no "why?".

In the words of my idle Neil Peart - "'Why are we here? I finally decided it was the wrong question...The real question ought to be 'What can we do about it?'"

That IS NOT saying that pondering why we are here is stupid, or ill advised, it is just the philosophy of "Why are we here?" is a fruitless question (and one we may not even be able to answer) and that "What can we do about it?" is much more productive. All a matter of opinion of course.

IMO, the only answers to the "why" question are ones we create. Some might say, "Well that is depressing". I don't see why, it gives us freedom to make up our own "whys"...and besides, who says our own "whys" are not important enough?


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


Edited by Shroomalicious (12/17/02 04:15 PM)


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1149534 - 12/17/02 04:53 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

IMO, the only answers to the "why" question are ones we create. Some might say, "Well that is depressing". I don't see why, it gives us freedom to make up our own "whys"...and besides, who says our own "whys" are not important enough?

I agree, ditto on the science

If it leads you to be sitting in your arm-chair oblivious and uncaring of what's going on in the world (because "ultimately it doesn't matter") then that's something different.

However, I didn't say that. I said specifically that it isn't that it doesn't matter, death matters it just isn't what many think it is. That is all I said. Death matters, it just isn't the end of everything.

GoBlue had a point, someone who loses a loved one (thru violence or otherwise) shouldn't feel bad according to that philosophy, but simply mourn the loss of the companionship, comradery and spiritual union that that being provided on a daily basis.

That isn't what I said at all. All I said was death wasn't the end of existence, I NEVER said I don't mind if I lose a companion or I don't mind if someone kills my family. I just said death isn't the end. According to my philosophy you can definitely feel bad when someone dies, where did I say you couldn't feel bad if someone you love dies? My opinion is, death is a big change, and those changes can be traumatic and you DO lose a companion, but it isn't goodbye forever.

I think many people are too sure of science. And no, the alternative is not to reject science altogether.

Practically the whole basis of what I wrote was how I thought science and spirituality are best combined. Where did I say we should do away with science? I don't think that and I don't believe I ever said that.

I don't mean to offend or sound like an ass but, I don't think djamor was implying that you said or beleived these things.  You seem to get awfuly defensive...unneccisarly, in many of your replys. 

Hey, I could be wrong  not trying to offend  :wink:   


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: Murex]
    #1150018 - 12/17/02 08:18 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I wasn't meaning to preach.

I don't think anyone took it that way, buddy.  However, under Christianity, I'm told that I'm bound for hell, since I don't believe in God.  Although I otherwise live a more "Christian" life than most Christians.  God is an asshole, ain't he?  :wink: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1151825 - 12/18/02 01:04 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think I got aggravated. I guess this is all writing and so it depends so much on the reader and what s/he interprets and not the writer and what s/he meant. In other words, I see where you are coming from and what you mean but no I was not angry.

I repeated what I had said many times because, no matter how many times I said them the FULL idea was not getting through. I am fine with laying blame on an inadequate explanation rather than do what some might do and blame it on a "stupid reader", its probably my fault so I don't mean to treat the reader in a mean or disrespective way. However, that is why I reexplained myself so carefully. I didn't call anyone any names or say they were stupid, or they just didn't get it it or anything like that, just explained my point of view more clearly. At least, I hope that is all I did.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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Anonymous

Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1152079 - 12/18/02 02:45 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

How come you don't think it's right to grieve a loved one? I think that's pretty cold hearted.


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: ]
    #1152089 - 12/18/02 02:48 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

How come you don't think it's right to grieve a loved one? I think that's pretty cold hearted.

LOL!  :grin:


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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Anonymous

Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1152135 - 12/18/02 03:05 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I'd say you're catching on. :wink:

:grin:


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Offlinedjamor
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1152238 - 12/18/02 03:47 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

relax brother, or sister. I don't know if I understood your full idea, but then, I'm not sure you understand the full implications of your idea, either. It's kinda complex stuff, ya know? Not everything I say is in reference to what you wrote. I said quite a few things, but you chose to interpret some as an attack on your idea.
Realizing that death feeds on life and life results in death isn't really a new idea, it's ancient. You implied that most people believe that we 'cease' to exist when we die. Wrong! Most people believe in an undying soul, whether it resides in heaven, hell, or is reincarnated here on earth (or simply travels elsewhere) after you die.
I certainly believe 'death is not the end' and if that is your point, it's well taken.
But the soul survives, imo, the carbon that goes back into the soil (H2O, etc.) isn't you, it's just some elements that can be re-used by a mother to make a body that may house another soul, or something like that. Personally, I have no problem with "trans-migration of soul" philosophies, maybe my life-force (spirit) will be re-born in a human, but maybe it'll be a dog, or 3 ravens or 40 million bacteria, I don't know. None of us do. That's where spirituality begins - realizing that one does not know.

"To me, existence is God. All that exists came from something, and the source is what I consider God. "All that is", whatever you want to call it. "- good one Max

"Gotcha. God = Existence. That makes more sense, but it sort of makes the term "God" irrelevant." not really (unless you use my definition of God), GoBlue. If you look at existence and are amazed and awe-inspired and appreciate that you are here now reading this because some 'unknown' put the basics building blocks of life into this universe...well, why not call that unknown "god"?

My point is the difference between god and God. I thought I explained it pretty good, but I guess I'm alone on that. In truth, we all define god for ourselves, whether we simply believe the biblical interpretation, or create our own religion.
(By the way, I don't think anyone here is preaching, or being mean or disrespectful, thanks everyone for that!)
But you didn't answer me. Where does that philosophy lead you?!
Is it ok that we blow the world up with nukes? I mean, our spirits will still survive. Do you see what I mean? Philosophy affects your actions and attitudes.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1152273 - 12/18/02 04:00 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

APPEAL TO IGNORANCE, a subtype of burden of proof (a type of pseudoreasoning):

Bob: The car won't start (claim #1)
Ted: Yeah, I know. Its a problem with the ignition (claim #2 - claim #1 was accepted and verified by Ted, so thats clear)
Bob: What makes you think that? (inquiry/objection - hey it could be tons of other shit too, Ted)
Ted: Well; why not? (Telling Bob to prove its NOT the ignition... thats just stupid.)

I feel I need to get this idea across because it happens all the time around here.. people are putting the burden of proof on the wrong side of their claims. If you claim God exists, and we DENY that claim, its up to YOU to prove it... there's nothing for a non-believer to proove - nothing at all. If I say there's no God - I'm denying the "god-claim."

I'm looking in this old critical thinking book and there's a comic in it that represents this well. There are these two guys in a museum standing among the dinosaur reconstructions, and one of them is saying "... but there's no proof that they DIDN'T dance EITHER!"

argh it makes so much sense to me, why don't people understand that when they claim something exists, they have to prove it - we don't have to prove it DOESN'T, because until its proven, it basically DOESN'T ANYWAY.

And please don't start acting like Plato and saying "well can we ever prove ANYTHING at ALL really?!" because thats when claims start getting even MORE absurd and useless.

Here's an excerpt from this text:
"Most often, the burden of proof should fall on those who claim something exists rather than on those who claim it doesn't [which is exactly what you guys do when you say "proove there's no god" thats putting the burden back on the person who didn't believe in anything to begin with]. There are people who believe in ghosts, not because of any evidence that there ARE ghosts, but because nobody has shown there are no such things. This is burden-of-proof pseudoreasoning because it mistakenly places the requirement of proving their position on those who do not believe in ghosts.

If you still don't care that you're resorting to pseudoreasoning, then so be it - I'll simply attempt to ignore claims like "well you can't prove that there have never been any pink elephants with purple polka-dots."

-=- Matt/Strumpling -=-
Sorry for carrying this so far off-topic..


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (12/18/02 04:07 PM)


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Offlinedjamor
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: ]
    #1152321 - 12/18/02 04:20 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"How come you don't think it's right to grieve a loved one? I think that's pretty cold hearted. " is it? I've grieved the loss of a loved one, I remember how bad that felt...how I could hardly breathe, how that stabbing pain in the heart feels...how I wanted to join her. I wouldn't want my loved ones to go through that when I "change". I know they will grieve anyway, and if that helps them heal, then so be it. But I would be happy to see them smile at my funeral. I would understand in death that they understood me in life.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: djamor]
    #1152330 - 12/18/02 04:26 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

that certainly makes sense, but can it really happen? I feel terrible when people close to me pass on.. even though I know they wouldn't want me to be.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1152366 - 12/18/02 04:43 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

rgh it makes so much sense to me, why don't people understand that when they claim something exists, they have to prove it - we don't have to prove it DOESN'T, because until its proven, it basically DOESN'T ANYWAY.

I understand  ya

You can't proove a negative, and mathematics never lie :grin:


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


Edited by 3eyedgod (12/18/02 04:43 PM)


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1152667 - 12/18/02 06:56 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

. If you claim God exists, and we DENY that claim, its up to YOU to prove it... there's nothing for a non-believer to proove - nothing at all.

I see what you are saying and I respect your obviously well thought out point of view, I just don't agree. I believe God exists, I am not going to hide that fact because I can't provide physical evidence, if I want to talk about it I am going to talk about it, not going to pretend I don't or just not bring it up. In other words, I don't feel I have to justify my opinions anymore than a "counterpointer" has to justify theirs. Your idea is a little like favoring the "counterpointer", making that opinion hold more weight, IMO. Point and counterpoint are equal, in my opinion.

argh it makes so much sense to me, why don't people understand that when they claim something exists, they have to prove it - we don't have to prove it DOESN'T, because until its proven, it basically DOESN'T ANYWAY.

So I can't claim to believe something in public unless I have physical evidence that I can provide on the spot? Also, just because you can't prove something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A long time ago, people couldn't prove Germs existed, so did they not exist in reality or was it just not proven?

And please don't start acting like Plato and saying "well can we ever prove ANYTHING at ALL really?!" because thats when claims start getting even MORE absurd and useless.

Well, I don't think it is absurd and useless at all. I Pluto and I have a valid point. You may not agree, but you don't have to agree with me, as I don't have to agree with you.

If you still don't care that you're resorting to pseudoreasoning

I don't think it is "pseudoreasoning", just because you don't agree with people doesn't mean they are dumb or can't reason. I don't think your reasoning is stupid, I disagree but I am willing to believe it is because we are two human beings with two different lives, experiences and emotional responses that are individual unto ourselves, rather than your comprehension level being low.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: djamor]
    #1152678 - 12/18/02 07:01 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry if I seemed angry but I assure you I was not. I have a tremendous amount of respect for your ideas and beliefs. I did, for some reason (probably because I was high) think that you were talking directly to me and for that I am also sorry.

You implied that most people believe that we 'cease' to exist when we die. Wrong!

I think you are correct actually. I DID imply that and it ISN'T correct.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
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Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1152913 - 12/18/02 08:30 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"I just don't agree. I believe God exists, I am not going to hide that fact because I can't provide physical evidence, if I want to talk about it I am going to talk about it, not going to pretend I don't or just not bring it up. In other words, I don't feel I have to justify my opinions anymore than a "counterpointer" has to justify theirs. Your idea is a little like favoring the "counterpointer", making that opinion hold more weight, IMO. Point and counterpoint are equal, in my opinion."

OK.. Difference of opinion.

So I can't claim to believe something in public unless I have physical evidence that I can provide on the spot? Also, just because you can't prove something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A long time ago, people couldn't prove Germs existed, so did they not exist in reality or was it just not proven?

yeah it looks like this whole issue may certainly fault.. I suppose what I should have said in my first post regarding:

"there is as much "physical" evidence to support the theory of God that there is to support your theory."

is something like this: People who don't believe in a God don't have a theory to support... The only theory is that they don't believe in the theory of God.

"You may not agree, but you don't have to agree with me, as I don't have to agree with you."

Agreed.

"I don't think it is "pseudoreasoning", just because you don't agree with people doesn't mean they are dumb or can't reason."

It would be defined as pseudoreasoning to ask somebody to prove that God doesn't exist, but yes of course I didn't feel you're stupid or can't reason, lol!

"I don't think your reasoning is stupid, I disagree but I am willing to believe it is because we are two human beings with two different lives, experiences and emotional responses that are individual unto ourselves, rather than your comprehension level being low."

Agreed again.

-=- Matt/Strumpling -=-
your turn?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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