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Invisiblechodamunky
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why should we love God? (if He exists)
    #708707 - 06/28/02 07:34 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

If God wanted Man to love and respect him, he would have given us undeniable proof and certainty that he exists. Why should we devote ourselves to something we don't even know is there? If God does indeed exist (which I personally don't think is the case), maybe he doesn't expect us to love him. What do u think of that?


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: why should we love God? (if He exists) [Re: chodamunky]
    #708731 - 06/28/02 07:41 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

God does exist, look around you........do not look from below, but look from above....
Your post seems very hostile....


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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: why should we love God? (if He exists) [Re: chodamunky]
    #708750 - 06/28/02 07:47 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: why should we love God? (if He exists) [Re: chodamunky]
    #708807 - 06/28/02 08:03 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

What do you mean God did not give us undeniable proof that He exists? That is pure crazy talk! Just look at the stars in the sky, and the ground beneath your feet.

What do you expect God to do? Maybe send out a newsletter ever now and then to remind us of his undeniable existence?

My God is Mother Nature, and His existence is proven by all of His amazing, beautiful, and wonderful (3 words which I reserve only for things that truly deserve them, I might add) creations on this planet. To love God is to admire and live in harmony with his other creations. I think that is all he expects.

-RebelSteve


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Namaste.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: why should we love God? (if He exists) [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #708810 - 06/28/02 08:03 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Tell that to the little ten year old girl who was brutally raped, tortured and murdered. How dare she desire something better, what a greedy pig...Oh, i forgot, she is happily in "heaven" now. You people crack me up.


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:egyptian:


Edited by Catalysis (06/28/02 08:06 PM)


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: why should we love God? (if He exists) [Re: World Spirit]
    #708832 - 06/28/02 08:11 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

In other words, if you want to contact God, don't get caught up with common life, because it will deprive you of holiness.

I like what you say here... I wish I could live simply, like Thoreau did. "To confront only the essential facts of life...." Living a life that is less based on materialism is definitely a more "holy" way of living. That is why I go to nature to seek my spiritual refreshment, not some church.

Then pray to the God of all things. See what happens.

Although (as I've said before) I do not follow any organized religion, I truly believe that prayer is a very very powerful thing. If you pray, and you believe, then you will receive the "proof" that you desire. Don't pray to God asking for proof because proof is all around you and if I were God, that would anger me. But when you pray from your heart... From your soul... You will just KNOW He is there. It's an amazing thing.

-RebelSteve



--------------------
Namaste.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: why should we love God? (if He exists) [Re: Catalysis]
    #708856 - 06/28/02 08:18 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Catalysis- Once, a long time ago, I shared your attitude. But I've come to realize that God can not prevent ALL the pain and suffering that is in the world. Bad things happen for a reason... To teach us and make us better people. And as for the hypothetical girl you speak of: Yes, her soul has moved on and is free from the pain that was inflicted upon her.

And besides, why does everyone blaim God when bad things happen. "How could God let this happen?" so many people ask. One dent in their armor of perfection and happiness, and their faith wavers. I believe there is a Force of Good and a Force of Evil. And the force of Evil is just as present in this world as is God. Why not blame him for that poor little ten-year-old girl? Huh?

-RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: why should we love God? (if He exists) [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #708935 - 06/28/02 08:39 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

"Imagine that you are creating a fabric of human destiny with the object of making men happy in the end, giving them peace and rest at last, but that it was essential and inevitable to torture to death only one tiny creature- that baby beating its breast with its fist, for instance- and to found that edifice on its unavenged tears, would you consent to be the architect on those conditions? Tell me, and tell the truth."

"No, I wouldn't consent," said Alyosha softly.

...too high a price is asked for harmony; it's beyond our means to pay so much to enter on it. And so I hasten to give back my entrance ticket, and if I am an honest man I am bound to give it back as soon as possible. And that I am doing. It's not God that I don't accept, Alyosha, only I most respectfully return him the ticket."

-The Brothers Karamazov, Fyodor Dostoyevsky

I am a spiritual person and i believe in god as a philosophical tool. But with all that aside, i dont see how someone is greedy for simply wanting validation of this "god" that everyone is talking about. Maybe your life is ok, my life is, but others suffer horribly and inescapably in this life. It is appalling that one would consider those who desire more out of life than just a heartbeat to be "greedy pigs".


--------------------
:egyptian:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: why should we love God? (if He exists) [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #708968 - 06/28/02 08:44 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I were God, that would anger me.
Ahh. God has an ego that can be pricked or is that just you?

But when you pray from your heart... From your soul... You will just KNOW He is there.
No, I won't. Have prayed deeply and found no one/thing there.

Of course you will turn this into a typical believer tautology. "You did not experience him because you did not pray from your heart."


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: why should we love God? (if He exists) [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #708987 - 06/28/02 08:48 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

What do you mean God did not give us undeniable proof that He exists? That is pure crazy talk!

If the proof was UNDENIABLE then we would ALL be believers. Since there are some agnostics amongts us, then the proof is obviously DENIABLE.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: why should we love God? (if He exists) [Re: Swami]
    #710036 - 06/29/02 02:51 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Apparently no one here remembers a little something called free will.

Take the 10yr old girl for example - it's not a matter of God letting it happen to her or some evil presence that caused it to happen...it all boils down to some mere mortal choosing to do something that's not normally accepted. (free will)

Take the fact that some of us choose not to acknowledge the ever present undeniable proof of God's existance. Just because someone *chooses* to believe in something else, that doesn't mean that the proof doesn't exist. (again, free will)

Take any other example you want to think of and I guarantee it can be summed up in one way or another by a choice that somebody makes. (whether it's a choice to believe in something, or to accept something, or whatever)

The point is that we as humans have the ability to mold our lives around the choices we make every day. All our social structures/belief systems/etc are all determined by those very decisions we make. And if someone wants to believe in God (for whatever reason) then that is their choice. So what good does it do to put down another persons beliefs simply because you choose to believe in something else?




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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: why should we love God? (if He exists) [Re: Swami]
    #710121 - 06/29/02 04:39 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

No, I won't. Have prayed deeply and found no one/thing there.

I am truly sorry for you then, Swami.

Of course you will turn this into a typical believer tautology. "You did not experience him because you did not pray from your heart."

Please don't assume what I am going to say.

Asshole.

-RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.


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InvisiblePynchon
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Re: why should we love God? (if He exists) [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #710212 - 06/29/02 06:47 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

argh...I just typed out a long reply to Mystical_Craven, hit continue and my puter crashed...god just crushed my sacreligious mortal arse...

The condensed version:

Take the 10yr old girl for example - it's not a matter of God letting it happen to her or some evil presence that caused it to happen...it all boils down to some mere mortal choosing to do something that's not normally accepted. (free will)

But where does the desire to do wrong come from? People who commit such crimes as the above generally don't do it just because they can. I don't think it has much to do with free will at all -- mankind would be just as free had we been created without the capacity to murder ten year old girls!

And if god is omnipotent, then he knows whether or not someone will choose to act on those impulses (which he must be ultimately responsible for) ahead of time anyway...so how do you reconcile a belief in free will with a belief in a higher power?

Take the fact that some of us choose not to acknowledge the ever present undeniable proof of God's existance.

I honestly believe that, were it there, I would acknowledge it. But god wouldn't have much to gain by providing "ever present undeniable proof" of his existence...I think he's more into that whole faith thing...

The point is that we as humans have the ability to mold our lives around the choices we make every day.

The problem is, this implies that everyone is free so long as they believe in free will...can a paranoid schizophrenic be considered free? If so, is he exercising that free will by refusing to take his medication or by taking it? Why?
If not, then who is to blame for the crimes he may commit?
Where should the line be drawn? And by whom?

IMO, if you believe in a higher power then you believe in a higher power that causes terrible things to happen to his creations for no reason. You can't get around it by invoking free will.






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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: why should we love God? (if He exists) [Re: Swami]
    #710447 - 06/29/02 09:22 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

The proof isn't supposed to be undeniable, it's there for us to see but we don't have to accept it. For god to somehow make it otherwise would be to take away our free will. I don't understand people who say "how can there be a god when there is so much suffering" - God made us, does that mean that he controls our destiny? Does that mean that he will allow us to do certain things and not others? Surely the one purpose of creation is to allow us to express ourselves in all forms ...in other words, to find out who we are.

I don't believe god is something that will care if we do not love "it". But to not love god is to turn our backs on who we are - to turn your back on love is to turn your back on life. But you always have the choice to do so, otherwise it wouldn't be freedom.


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Offlinenugsarenice
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Re: why should we love God? (if He exists) [Re: chodamunky]
    #710453 - 06/29/02 09:30 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

it really depends on which "god" you are referring, too, or in better words which prophets interpretation of god. I believe we are all god, that god is the wind, earth, etc. so the only proof to me that their is god , is existing.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: why should we love God? (if He exists) [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #710562 - 06/29/02 10:30 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I dont need to prove or disprove god's existance. I simply ask myself the question, why should i acknowledge the existance of god anyway?

It is so easy for someone with a good life or even a mediocre life to be thankful and "love god". People say we should love god because he gave us this life. This is such a selfish point of view. We so easily forget those who have NOT been given life but have had it taken away by the very free will that we hold so dear. How are we to atone for this injustice? Some say Jesus. I say, how dare Jesus forgive that little girl's killer without her consent for she is the only one with the right to forgive and she is gone. Some say hell is the way to atonement and justice. I am a firm believer that two wrongs cannot make a right and i refuse to accept eternal suffering as a means to justice. Therefore, in the names of all those who have suffered and not been given the life that we cherish, i respectfully decline to acknowledge god, should he exist. I guess you could say that i simply disagree with his ethics.


--------------------
:egyptian:


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Offlinepostalboy
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Re: why should we love God? (if He exists) [Re: nugsarenice]
    #710566 - 06/29/02 10:32 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

NICELY put


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"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why should we love God? (if He exists) [Re: chodamunky]
    #710750 - 06/29/02 11:38 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

It seems that there are a lot of really bright people around here who know a whole lot about how to research things with a computer. Your question could be answered by first geting a good working definition of your terms. Even if you go to say, the 5 largest world religions, you will discern that a human being, is so defined, based on our relationship to the Source and Ground of Being, commonly called God. Being, is defined by philosophical theologians of the Judeao-Christian persuasion such as John MacQuarrie, but sometimes a simple definition from another religion can help.

In Hinduism, 'God' is sometimes referred to by the 'state of consciousness' that one must be in to Experience God. That 'state' is called 'Sat Chit Ananda,' sometimes translated as Being-Knowledge-Bliss. This is similar to the Christian idea that to know God, one must 'be in Christ.' Christ is usually spoken of as the Being of God, manifested in humanity, but Christ can also be thought of as a Divine State of Being. The first way is personal, the second way is transpersonal. There is the Personal God, with attributes (Goodness, mercy, forgiveness, etc.), and there is the Godhead, which is without attributes - utterly transcendent and incomprehensible. These differences need to be sought out in Christianity, but are definately there. Hinduism, for example, calls God with attributes 'Saguna Brahma,' and without attributes 'Nirguna Brahma.' We have God and Godhead, but it is not so clear.

As in Sat Chit Ananda, so is Christ, the pure, eternal awareness of Love. Not emotional, romantic, erotic, brotherly, but 'agape,' selfless love. There is no plurality in this Divine Nature, it is Oneness - the Unio Mystica when humans experience it. It is not experienced with the senses, but is experienced while alive. Death does not automatically 'put one' in Christ, Love, Heaven, God or any other Name. Living the lifestyle prescribed by religions in general is what 'gets one to God.' All of the major faiths have 'styles' of worship,' the most common being the path of devotion, called Bhakti Yoga in Hinduism. It is an emotional path (as in Evangelical or Pentacostal Christianity). Another path is the contemplative path which is usually monastic in Christianity, and appeals to intellectual type people. It is called Jnana (pronounced gyan) Yoga in Hinduism.

In common to both paths is love: emotional or intellectual. Love is NOT a feeling. It is a condition of one's being, with one's will focused on Oneness. It is a complete simplification and concentration of one's consciousness on consciousness itself. If one receives 'grace' (the interpenetration of the Holy Spirit from God in Christianity; the realization of God in Sat Chit Ananda in Hinduism), one is made ecstatically aware of the Nature of God (in God's humanly experienceable form). Such an experience had John of the Gospel write; "God is love." The paths to God require that one be transformed into the Nature of God while in this life. Such is the urgency to 'love one another,' and to 'love thy neighbor as thyself,' which is at the heart of Christ's teaching. Love is 'The Way' to God. It is selflessness, service to others, altruism, humility, not sweet sentimentality. To love in this Way requires spiritual and psychological detachment and strength of character.

Hope this helps...I was motivated to respond at length to your important question.
Peace.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineShroomalicious
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Re: why should we love God? (if He exists) [Re: chodamunky]
    #710844 - 06/29/02 12:26 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Once again, I deeply respect all opinions here but obviously I must disagree with either one point of view or the other.

I firmly believe in God, so I am not fazed when others say they do not, so feel absolutely free to challenge anything that I say.

IMO, I believe God has left enough proof of his exsistance that you can believe in God if you look subjectively. I also believe that God has left as little proof so that you can believe God DOES NOT exsist if you want to, there is a lot of evidence of this.

Why would God not give us undeniable proof? Some, including me, feel that God has...but do you mean God comes down from the sky and says "I am God" for you? He has done this before if you believe the Bible (some of which I believe) and people have forgotten about your simply don't believe in it. So in order for God to do this to all people God would have to come down every 5-20 years. But my main point is this... What is the point of having faith if you see God and God says "I am here, I am God"? I believe we are suppose to turn up our own truths, of everything, including God...Believing in something that is right in front of you means almost nothing, IMO, because then you only believe in it only because you are effected by its pressence.

Also, about the girl...my girl friend was raped from the time she was 9 to the time she was 12 by her step father until she got pregnant, told someone and gave the child up for adoption because she was only 13 at the time of the birth. So, I think I have prespective on "How could God "let" this happen...I believe God wants humans to work things out for ourselves...all we need is each other, and if people don't carry out their side of the bargain then they will pay. God has given us absolutely everything we need to make everything work, it's up to each of us to do his part. This is why I rarely give credence to divine intervention stories...for God to interfere with his creation would be working against God's purpose. My girlfriend didn't suffer because of God, she suffered because of her step dad.

Also, about Eternal Damnation...this is frustrating because people almost always misunderstand...it says in the Bible that Eternal is God's name...God is Eternal...so Eternal Damnation is God's Damnations...God's Damnation is a lesson, if God just cast you into it forever, then what would we learn. Eternal does not refer to a period of time in this case.

Again, everything I said is my opinion and interpretation...feel free to challege it.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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Invisibletak_old
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Re: why should we love God? (if He exists) [Re: chodamunky]
    #713278 - 06/30/02 02:52 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I dont think you need to love him. I think god unconditionally loves us. And with that, i think we unconditionally love god...We may not know it, and us not knowing the truth may make us think we dont, or hate, or even deny its existance...but deep down, i think we all probably do. I dont know for sure, i may be real off, but its a shot?


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