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OfflineBigYetti
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Registered: 12/23/01
Posts: 16
Last seen: 22 years, 1 month
Re: Does God Exist? part one [Re: MentalHygene]
    #550396 - 02/13/02 05:58 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Look... Over there, its a bird, its a plane, well wait a minute.. No, actually its only my reflection in the window....

Whew! That was wierd.... I thought I saw, no never mind...

Breaktime.... What if while were relaxing we took a minute or two to figure some things out for ourselves? I believe that its within our grasp to gain a deep understanding of just what your referring to by exploring within our own consciousness.

Some quotes from Harry Palmer...

Philosophy is the exploration of consciousness by consciousness. Its thinking about thinking. It's the difference between a disciple and an enlightened man. A disciple is thinking. An enlightened man is watching. - HP

According to some, the creation of a God is a surrender of personal responsibility for our own minds. According to others, the creation of a God is the first sane thing we have done with our minds. - HP

Check out the exercises that this guy came up with for exploring consciousness (Harry Palmer). www.starsedge.com Go Harry!!! Go everybody!!!


--------------------
[blue]*******************************************[/blue]
Control your own mind.
[purple] Seek an experiential clarity..... [/purple]
www.StarsEdge.com
[blue]*******************************************[/blue]

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OfflineMentalHygene
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Registered: 01/14/02
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Re: Does God Exist? part one [Re: BigYetti]
    #550434 - 02/13/02 06:41 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Ahhhhhhh.... how refreshing to have some one think that thinking is the best path to spiratuality! I was never asking questions about god to "find him". It was just a very general question to get people discussing different beliefs. I know my God and he ghanges every day. Much in the same way I do! Meditation, and projection have been huge tools in finding my place in the spiratual realm. I do not believe that I will ever stop mind expanding exercises, because they have proved far too valuable. Do you practice projection by any chance? Because I would love to hear some of your techniques if you do!


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"WHATS THE USE OF AUTONOMY WHEN A BUTTON DOES IT ALL?"

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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
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Registered: 07/15/01
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Re: Does God Exist? part one [Re: MentalHygene]
    #550497 - 02/13/02 07:46 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Describe what 'thinking' means you?

A near thinkless mind is the best thinker.. hehe


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OfflineMentalHygene
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Re: Does God Exist? part one [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #550520 - 02/13/02 08:09 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

In response to: WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THINKING?


Hmmmmmm..... Let me THINK.......Wait, what does that mean? Now I have to THINK about THINKING. Its a viscious cycle!!!!! Anyway, basicly I mean sitting by yourself, bringing you mind to a complete standstill, and letting the knowledge of the universe flow into you. (also known as meditation). A very valuable tool!


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"WHATS THE USE OF AUTONOMY WHEN A BUTTON DOES IT ALL?"

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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
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Re: Does God Exist? part one [Re: MentalHygene]
    #550583 - 02/13/02 09:04 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Ahhh..  I"m getting scolded.. hehe  :tongue:

"A very valuable tool.... to find a thought of "being free yet together as one."


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OfflineMentalHygene
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Re: Does God Exist? part one [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #550595 - 02/13/02 09:18 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

scolded? nah that was just my pathetic attempt at humor! And your idea of a valuable tool is indeed valuable!


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"WHATS THE USE OF AUTONOMY WHEN A BUTTON DOES IT ALL?"

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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
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Re: Does God Exist? part one [Re: MentalHygene]
    #550615 - 02/13/02 09:51 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

O.Ohhh the God speaks!! :wink:


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OfflineMentalHygene
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Re: Does God Exist? part one [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #550627 - 02/13/02 10:03 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

(insert deep powerfull voive here) HAHAHA.......I AM GOD!  I WAS JUST WAITING FOR THE RIGHT TIME TO RELEASE THIS KNOWLEDGE UPON THE WORLD. THIS FORUM IS MY VEHICLE OF CHOICE.  FOLLOW MY WORD OR BE PUNISHED!  hahaha  :wink: 


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"WHATS THE USE OF AUTONOMY WHEN A BUTTON DOES IT ALL?"

Edited by MentalHygene (02/13/02 10:05 PM)

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OfflineMentalHygene
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Re: Does God Exist? part one [Re: MentalHygene]
    #550662 - 02/13/02 10:48 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Just out of curriosity..... In muslim belief, where do you go when you pass on from this world?


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"WHATS THE USE OF AUTONOMY WHEN A BUTTON DOES IT ALL?"

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OfflineBigYetti
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Re: Does God Exist? part one [Re: MentalHygene]
    #550913 - 02/14/02 05:14 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

G'mornin....
To clarify your response to my post, "how refreshing to have some one think that thinking is the best path to spiratuality!". I actually wasen't saying that. If you read closely, Harry is saying that Philosophy is thinking about thinking. His techniques use the mind as a tool to actually quiet the mind, and quickly at that. In a very short time (compared to more traditional methods of meditation) your mind becomes very quiet and can actually shut off using his techniques. Its a very smooth gradient approach. Your from one step to the next before you know it. Without the usual forcing the mind to focus or get still or whatever of traditional meditations. From there he shows you how to move your awareness (the 'I' or "I am") outside of your mind to experience and operate from a higher awareness. But thats not all he's discovered. Also how to deliberalely recognize, encompass and if desired, remove beliefs from your consciousness and more. Excellently cool (I love the feel of a discreate).... Check it out.

Far as projection, yes I use the tools I learned in Avatar Wizards course to bridge across the physical and the astral plane continuously. One foot in the physical and one foot in the astral so to speak.... This step of course after opening the inner vision as I call it (3rd eye so to speak) and after cleaning up some of the mess that was inside and then expanding awareness into more of a higher self aspect. Its the highest clearist (sp) high I have ever experienced (by light years).

Question; with techniques this powerful and effective, can one deliberately and significantly excel their own spiritual evolution?

Anyway, his book is a free download from the site and you can get the section one exercises from a book called Resurfacing from the same site for around 15 bucks I think (underpriced if you ask me).....

So in a nutshell, no, I wasen't referring to using the mind to find God. The mind only creates endless scenario loops. More like finding your own experience of God can only be done when one gets out of their mind (strange as that sounds - hehe). Or put another way, expands their awareness beyond the confines of the mind.

We only really know what we experience. - HP


--------------------
[blue]*******************************************[/blue]
Control your own mind.
[purple] Seek an experiential clarity..... [/purple]
www.StarsEdge.com
[blue]*******************************************[/blue]

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OfflineLeroyBr103
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Re: Does God Exist? part one [Re: BigYetti]
    #551069 - 02/14/02 09:21 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Hey, I definately agree that exploring our own selves is the path that leads to an expanded consciousness. I find most organized religions extremely arrogant, that God, or Allah, or whatever, chose them and speaks to them which makes their religion the "right" one. I think there is definately something else besides this Earth, but it seems like it would be impossible for our very human minds to comprehend whatever it is.



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OfflineMentalHygene
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Re: Does God Exist? part one [Re: BigYetti]
    #551203 - 02/14/02 11:50 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Again, I will dare to say "refreshing".maybe I didn't word the last one right! I wasn't really referring to thinking untill you find god. I tend to use the word thinking as a broad generalization for meditation and spiratual practices. Witch in actuality makes no sense because meditation is the absense of thought. And the "god" I was referring to is not the image that is readilly accepted in religious circles. Personally I have found that there is just as much "god" in me as there is in the rock sitting on the side of the road, or the tree in the yard.
Thank you for the source on projection. I'll definately check that out! By the way you refer to "one foot in and one foor out". I have been researching and practicing projection for some time, and have never heard of this approach. Is it different from full out release from the body?

thanks again


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"WHATS THE USE OF AUTONOMY WHEN A BUTTON DOES IT ALL?"

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OfflineZahid
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Registered: 01/21/02
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Re: Does God Exist? part one [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #551343 - 02/14/02 01:57 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Arch_Templar: You cant get it out of your system to "disprove" God to me. You've argued one theory to another, that you're convinced the theories you use are correct. You're claiming egoism on my behalf? Egoism? How? I don't have any set mantality that I am superior to non-Muslims. My closest friends are not religious, I don't preach Islam to them because I can sense somewhat that they're too set on their atheist beliefs. My belief is that Muhammad (peace and blessing be upon him) was the final prophet from God. My heart has truely experienced God, and thus I am a believer for life. There is no turning back. Other friends I have opened the doors of Islam to them and they found it interesting, and after months of self-discovery, they made the conversion too. I only did this with two friends who were very open minded. A "theory" that faith is some ignorant crutch that the ego clings onto subconsciously sounds completely void to me. You can't just study religion, read the Bible, or the Torah, or the Koran and make an analysis of it what you think is the truth. You have to experience it. I don't care if you're reading the Koran or the Gospel everyday for 40 years, you have to truely experience it, and believe in it. Arch_Templar, if you experienced it, you would know that it's deeper than anything that manifests in the brain. It's spiritual, and at the same time it abides by God's physical laws (the way God made the brain work, the feeling is unique on its own). I understand what you're saying quoting Carl Jung, but I disagree with it. But for some reason you feel it's your duty to disprove God to me, using anything from psychological theories to saying that environment does not shape a race's physical features. There are non-believers who are not sure, and are confused if there is a higher power or not. They are confused by all the religious conflict, the clashing of religions, and of course, living in a society like the United States or Canada doesn't help much when God is only a lifestyle here, not life. Then there are the set non-believers who are absolutely convinced that God does not exist. They'll find anything to support this belief. God calls these people the "Deaf, dumb, and blind." Claiming organized faith is arrogant, is, itself arrogant because once again I'm stressing that the kufr cannot see God or understand him because their heart's are inflicted with a disease that has them living through the concept that life is a game to be played, good or bad. The blind belief that everything happened by accident. This topic has turned into a clash of beliefs. Some of you are claiming there is nothing beyond the physical world, others are claiming that "God is within" and we have to look for it ourselves, and some feel that the afterlife is so beyond human comprehension that they decide to wait and embrace the moment of death with no particular mindset or belief except that it's going to be wonderful, no matter who you are. Enough said.


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Edited by Zahid (02/14/02 02:05 PM)

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OfflineMentalHygene
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Re: Does God Exist? part one [Re: Zahid]
    #551469 - 02/14/02 03:29 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Question: You always speak of "experiencing god" What exactly do you mean be this? What makes YOU able to experience him, and the person that has religiously studied the book for 40 years not know him at all? It sounds like you are a little full of yourself... You definately carry the "hollier than thou" attitude! Also why is it necesary to say "peace be upon him" every single time you say muhammed? (peace be upon all!!!)


--------------------
"WHATS THE USE OF AUTONOMY WHEN A BUTTON DOES IT ALL?"

Edited by MentalHygene (02/14/02 03:30 PM)

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OfflineZahid
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Re: Does God Exist? part one [Re: MentalHygene]
    #551579 - 02/14/02 04:37 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

Question: You always speak of "experiencing god" What exactly do you mean be this? What makes YOU able to
                        experience him, and the person that has religiously studied the book for 40 years not know him at all? It sounds like
                        you are a little full of yourself... You definately carry the "hollier than thou" attitude! Also why is it necesary to say
                        "peace be upon him" every single time you say muhammed? (peace be upon all!!!)




When I say "experiencing God", I mean that in a sense of belief: those who truely believe in God with their hearts, believe in the Last Day, believe that Muhammad (pbuh) was the final in a series of prophets, and have absolute faith in the Merciful and the afterlife that awaits, are those who truely experience God. What makes me experience God? I believe. There are those who think they believe in God, but they don't with their hearts. This is what I mean when I talk about people who "observe" other religions, especially those of the book. They can study Islam in a learning matter (not spiritual) for 2 years or 40 years, but they have to believe with their hearts. The experience of God can go either way for a Christian or a Jew. It is generally the same thing, except they follow the teachings of a different prophet. When you die, an angel will ask you three questions: Who is your Creator? What is your Mission? Who was your Messenger? The correct answers are God, to surrender yourself to the will of God, and Muhammad (pbuh), Jesus (pbuh), Moses (pbuh), or whatever messenger you followed (according to God, He sent hundreds). I don't carry the "hollier than thou" attitude, I compare myself (a devout Muslim) to the kufr (non believers in God, who while some are good people, many of them do not obey Him). And it is generally customary in Islam to say "Peace and Blessing be upon him" when a messenger of Allah's name is spoken (after all, they did deliver the messages for us). And yes, peace be upon all. :smile: One thing I learned in Sufism that higthens the peace in my heart is selfless love for all living creatures.


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Edited by Zahid (02/14/02 04:39 PM)

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OfflineBigYetti
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Re: Does God Exist? part one [Re: MentalHygene]
    #551641 - 02/14/02 05:35 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Hey MH,
To clarify my post this morning;

One foot in and one foot out
----------------------------------
The 'one foot in and one foot out' description is actually referring to a way of continuous operation in daily life once you can do it (called in Avatar lingo 'Wizard consciousness'). With that level of expanded awareness you can go about your daily stuff in the physical plane while still expanded into the astral. Both planes simultaneously. This level of control requires you to have a clear awareness of your higher self. Once achieved, it allows you to have a much greater ability to influence not only your universe (your experience of reality) but also the universes of others (hence the label 'Wizard'). Mere words can not describe this way of being/operating, you must experience it for yourself. My description of it here is trivial in comparison. I refered it to your question about projection to give you another viewpoint about projection. This for me is the ulitmate projection ability due to its unlimited potential and the personal power it gives one.

Conscious Projection
-------------------------
In reference to the projection you originally referred to (astral projection). In my experience to do this with a good (and real) result, one needs a good quantity of free attention particles, well disciplined attention skills, and a strong will power. Also a good ability to distinguish between ones own imagination and actual experiences not generated by the imagination (know thyself?). With these foundational skills developed there are several good techniques to explore. The fully conscious techniques require well disciplined attention skills (I.E. flawless focus and concentration). With that in mind, I recommend a book called 'The art and practice of astral projection' by Ophiel. If its not in print, try to find a copy used. His penmanship isn't the best but I have found his techniques really work, unlike some dead end techniques out there. Even before one develops attention mastery, his 'Dream Method' can be used to produce full conscous projection by awakening on the astral during sleep. All of his techniques will take some days or weeks to produce results for one new to this sort of thing. By the way, section 3 of the Avatar course has a rundown (procedure) called 'Body Handle' that will allow you to induce from lucid dreaming to full projection in somewhere between a few minutes to a few hours of working on it and depending on your skill level. Quite effective, of course, since its from Harry Palmer's research.

One thing I would suggest is that if one doesn' t have Wizard level skill in controlling consciousness (which by its very nature protects one), its a good idea to protect oneself deliberately. Especially if one tends to use things like mushrooms to alter consciousness. Do yourself a big favor and don't leave yourself open to hidden influences in consciousness. The method you use is really one of personal preference. I prefer the LBRP and still use it for clearing, when appropriate. Done properly in consciousness it works remarkably well. Of course one could choose some ritual from Wicca for protection or if ritual work isn't for you, a 'light' meditation works good (If you don't know a good one, try Al Mannings book "The miracle of universal psychic power" for a good light/chakra protection exercise). Others on this site may be able to recommend other good protection methods from their experience. However, my top recommendation to cover all the bases is still the Avatar course. Just do it. It will give you back your source, teach you skills to create deliberately in consciousness, to remove unwanted creations from consciousness, and alot more... Its cutting edge... It blows all the others away...

Happy Trails........................


--------------------
[blue]*******************************************[/blue]
Control your own mind.
[purple] Seek an experiential clarity..... [/purple]
www.StarsEdge.com
[blue]*******************************************[/blue]

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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
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Re: Does God Exist? part one [Re: Zahid]
    #551700 - 02/14/02 06:43 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

You cant get it out of your system to "disprove" God to me. You've argued one theory to another, that you're convinced the theories you use are correct. You're claiming egoism on my behalf?

You still misinterpret my frequency model. I didn't do it to DISPROVE. I gave you PERSPECTIVE on the basis of attraction to faith! Frankly, I'm getting tired of silliness. I will not reiterate the model again. Find me a stinking line in there that tries to disprove it, we might have something..

Egoism? Look at your suppositions:

He has not truely experienced faith, only studied it and made what he thought was an intelligent opinion on the matter. And b) It is just that, a theory. Many people harbour these, smart and average.

How presumptuous.. He's travelled and studied other cultures [ie: hopi indians, elgonies] to gain a refined understanding of his theories. He studied Eastern mysticism in years greater than your present age. He wasn't our "average" analyst sitting in an armchair spouting rhetoric.. He took serious risks against orthodoxy. I admire his 'individuality' and his spirituality.

And Yes, my theory is better than the rest because there are alot more who share it, compared to two people and your theory.

Ehhh.. The Frequency model has nothing to do with your God-based claim, assertion, theory.. Make up your mind. You can't claim yours to be a theory unless you have some solid smidgen of facts to back it up. Either case, I wasn't not making a comparison. I was providing psychological perspective and implications about your 'attraction'.

There may be other Westerners or Euopeans who read it, and vaguely agreed with it out of respect to a known psychologist

That's quite amusing.. Since you do know nothing about Freud and Jung, but somehow you can formulate an (informed?) opinion on the consensus's agreement with them..

This proves my point even more. Realization that someone may experience is often not right. On psychedelics, people often realize things they truely believe themselves, but that doesn't make it correct. It's not an "ultimate truth" or a form of satori enligtenment that C. G. Jung got. "Familiarized"? Heh. How well did he get familiarized?


Wrong. His work was his Satori, his dedication and his ability to sever ties with a domineering mentor, Freud -- displays his devotion and character in faith for 48 years. He needs no religion to experience Enlightenment.

In reply to:

A "theory" that faith is some ignorant crutch that the ego clings onto subconsciously sounds completely void to me. You can't just study religion, read the Bible, or the Torah, or the Koran and make an analysis of it what you think is the truth.




You're reading more subtext from your imagination.. I didn't state the obvious implication, hoping you would get it: Past life [unconscious] potential manifesting in the present one. The ego has two stratas:

Master
Super-ego

Super is subdivided into 2 levels:

Conscience ideal
Ego ideal

The mind has 3 stratas:

Subconscious
Unconscious
Consciousness

You figure out the rest..

In reply to:

if you experienced it, you would know that it's deeper than anything that manifests in the brain. It's spiritual, and at the same time it abides by God's physical laws (the way God made the brain work, the feeling is unique on its own).




I have.. I found a God unlike yours. He's in a golden temple but the throne is empty. My experiences do not abide by Allah's laws.

In reply to:

I understand what you're saying quoting Carl Jung, but I disagree with it. But for some reason you feel it's your duty to disprove God to me, using anything from psychological theories to saying that environment does not shape a race's physical features. There are non-believers who are not sure, and are confused if there is a higher power or not. They are confused by all the religious conflict, the clashing of religions, and of course, living in a society like the United States or Canada doesn't help much when God is only a lifestyle here, not life. Then there are the set non-believers who are absolutely convinced that God does not exist. They'll find anything to support this belief. God calls these people the "Deaf, dumb, and blind." Claiming organized faith is arrogant, is, itself arrogant because once again I'm stressing that the kufr cannot see God or understand him because their heart's are inflicted with a disease that has them living through the concept that life is a game to be played, good or bad. The blind belief that everything happened by accident. This topic has turned into a clash of beliefs. Some of you are claiming there is nothing beyond the physical world, others are claiming that "God is within" and we have to look for it ourselves, and some feel that the afterlife is so beyond human comprehension that they decide to wait and embrace the moment of death with no particular mindset or belief except that it's going to be wonderful, no matter who you are. Enough said.




I'm tired of this. You didn't even tried to interpret the simple model correctly so all your arguments are moot. It means nothing to me, all it does is redirects right back at you..

AND FOR THE LAST TIME, there were certain instances I wascountering (with some humor and sarcasim) you not trying to disprove. You have no ability to prove your claims anyways so how am I suppose to disprove it? And please, I have no duty to enlighten the misguided, it's up to the person.. *roll_eyes


Edited by ArCh_TemPlaR (02/14/02 07:38 PM)

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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
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Re: Does God Exist? part one [Re: MentalHygene]
    #551709 - 02/14/02 06:54 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

BWahahah..  I knew you were up to something.. :laugh:


and err... I'm not a muslim!!!

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OfflineMenace
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Re: Does God Exist? part one [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #551724 - 02/14/02 07:07 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

God does not exist. The scriptures were written by many psycotic men who lived in caves. They created an illusional God to prevent chaos. These scriptures were passed on, edited, compiled into the bible, and translated. This is what we now consider the book of god?

No
There is no god


--------------------
Maybe this world
Is another planet's
Hell

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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
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Re: Does God Exist? part one [Re: BigYetti]
    #551744 - 02/14/02 07:24 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

I foud your posts very intriguing.  I even visited the website.  Awatar is a nice ring to it..

It seems Harry offers quicker and more efficient way to solidy the foundation than traditional ones of Buddhism.

and MH:  I was reflecting yesterday about deception.  It's like a disease of the ego.  My parents have administrative responsibility in the temple.  They  have to deal with it for quite a while.  The internal quarrelling and power politics cost the temple in 5 digits figure.  Even when that was settled with the lawyers, some of the friends are doing it behind my parents back. 

I thought of your alias.. ahaha Good hygiene to keep the mind free of diseases. :tongue:

These people could benefit from uh your Godliness.. :wink:

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* Proof That God Does Not Exist
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yewhew 4,242 37 02/21/04 03:34 AM
by raytrace

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