Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   OlympusMyco.com Olympus Myco Polypropylene Grow Bags   Myyco.com APE Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Feminized Cannabis Seeds

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
Re: God Exists [Re: ]
    #589485 - 03/25/02 10:27 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

"...when dogma enters the brain, all intellectual activity ceases."

"...belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort,
or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence. The more
certitude one assumes, the less there is to think about, and a person sure of everything
would never have any need to think about anything and might be considered clinically
dead under current medical standards, where the absence of brain activity is taken
to mean that life has ended."


-- Robert Anton Wilson

I posted these quotes in another thread, but they seem appropriate here as well.


That theory would be valid if God did not exist, and if the faiths were a lie. But God does exist, and He did reveal His guidance to humans. In fact, even in the scenario that there was no hereafter, having faith would certainly not hinder the intelligence of a person and the ability to reason. Sounds like Robert Wilson is trying to comfort himself.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #589529 - 03/25/02 11:25 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Zahid:
"That theory would be valid if God did not exist, and if the faiths were a lie. But
God does exist, and He did reveal His guidance to humans."


Sound like your intellectual activity on the subject has ceased. Please prove that god
exists and if it exists, that it did reveal it's guidance to humans. (note: quoting religious
texts does not qualify as proof, argument 'by design' is not a proof.)

Zahid:
"In fact, even in the scenario that there was no hereafter, having faith would certainly
not hinder the intelligence of a person and the ability to reason."


What if reason leads one to conclude that religious faith has no basis in any facts that
can be verified? If a god really does exist and it endowed humans with a special place
in creation, giving them the ability to reason, why should humans abondon reason
when it comes to questioning a god's existence? Does a god fear logic?

Zahid:
"Sounds like Robert Wilson is trying to comfort himself."

Sounds like Zahid is trying to comfort himself over his lack of critical thinking.

Edited by evolving (03/26/02 12:01 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLoneGunny
Stranger
Registered: 03/25/02
Posts: 1
Loc: usa,socal (help)
Re: God Exists [Re: ]
    #589547 - 03/25/02 11:55 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

God is a big pink elephant.
I have yet to see one (well on the Dumbo movie, but that doesn't count cause there
the elephants were also manmade)


--------------------
No men cries when freedom fails the best men rot in filthy jails ,while those who cried "appease appease",where the ones they tried to please

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFliquid
Back from being gone.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/18/02
Posts: 6,953
Loc: omotive
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Its a shame... [Re: LoneGunny]
    #589628 - 03/26/02 02:00 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

To see, that the post has gone from 5 to 1 without a clear GOOD reply.
I have not read anything that connects to the way i feel about it.
And since i is an ego, i must be an egoist. And since people say there is a god, then god or allah must be an egoist also. And we are all egoists. The rich think of the rich. And the poor think of getting rich.

Who thinks about other?

Well me. There is no god people, if there was a god. He was not as in the bible. The bible and the koran are compilations of truth and lies. Be offended i don't care, because if you are offended you then are on a lower level then me. Because i can see without the fairytale of god. I know there is NO god because i can see the truth. I am so sorry for everyone who does believe in god. And thinks there will be something in a way as god followers say "after death you will go to heaven". Thats like saying "when you smash an apple, you get banana juice".

There is no heaven only human energy that transforms into energy without body.

Please respond. :-D


--------------------
:dancing: My latest music! :yesnod:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
Re: God Exists [Re: ]
    #590062 - 03/26/02 02:04 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Sound like your intellectual activity on the subject has ceased. Please prove that god exists and if it exists, that it did reveal it's guidance to humans. (note: quoting religious texts does not qualify as proof, argument 'by design' is not a proof.)

Please prove that all Muslims, Jews, Christians, Wiccans, Mystics, Buddhists, Hindus, Druids, etc. have ceased intellectual activity. Quoting a theory from C. G. Jung doesn't count, either. While I can't directly prove the existance of God in a way that scientists can prove the earth is round, (God would never allow this, for a man to prove His existance) but I can prove He exists using logic and reason.

What if reason leads one to conclude that religious faith has no basis in any facts that can be verified? If a god really does exist and it endowed humans with a special place in creation, giving them the ability to reason, why should humans abondon reason when it comes to questioning a god's existence? Does a god fear logic?

Humans do have the ability to reason. You do not give up this ability by believing in the Creator. One person can reason that God does not exist, while another can reason that He does. Using logic & reason I concluded that there is an Almighty God, and that only a fool would reject His love. How did I come to this logic?

Using Reason & Logic to Find God

One of the more popular aspects of the i'jaaz (the miraculous nature) of the Qur'aan in these times concerns its comments on aspects of science that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) and his people could not have known about. There are a number of books written about this topic, perhaps the most popular being Maurice Bucaille's The Bible, Qur'an, and Science1 It should be remembered however, that the Qur'aan is not meant to be a book primarily devoted to a discussion of 'science', but rather a book that is meant for the guidance of mankind. As such, any references to subjects of a scientific nature are typically brief and not very descriptive. The i'jaaz, however appears in the fact that even in these limited descriptions, the Qur'aan conforms exactly to modern science, and imparts knowledge that was unknown during the lifetime of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam). These descriptions are free from retroactive ideas that plagued humanity from the earliest of times, such as the concept that the Earth is stationary, and all the other planets and stars rotate around it.

There are numerous examples of such verses, such as the description of the formation of human life. The sperm of man is referred to as a 'mixture of liquids' (76:2), since the sperm is composed of various secretions from the testicles, the seminal vesicles, the prostate and other glands. From the literally millions of sperms produced and ejaculated, only one sperm is actually used in the fertilization process - a very small quantity. This is referred to in a number of verses by the word 'nutfah' (75:37) which signifies a small quantity of mixed fluid. the sperm then hoins the female egg and forms the zygote. This occurs in the mother's womb, a 'safe lodging' (23:13). (see Chapters 3, 4, 5 and 6 - Web Ed.). ...

During the delivery process, the passage of the baby from the mother's womb to the outside world occurs through the birth canal. Typically, this canal is extremely narrow and tight. However, shortly before the birth, certain changes occur, including the release of certain hormones, the contractions of the uterus, and the breakage of the 'bag of water' surrounding the baby, all of which contribute to making the canal loose. This is referred to in 80:20, "then We made the passage (though the birth canal) easy."

Perhaps the best way to appreciate the beauty of the above verses is to see pictures of the human embryo as it goes through the various stages of development...(see Chapters 3, 4, 5 and 6 - Web Ed)

The vivid yet simple descriptions given in these verses (i.e. 22:5) were unknown to the people of the Prophet's time, demonstrating the i'jaaz of the Qur'aan in Science.

Other facts that are given in the Qur'aan include the description of the formation of milk (16:66), the notion of orbits for the planets (21:33 and 36:40), and the description of the water cycle (15:22, 35:9 and more). Every verse that discusses nature and the creation falls into this category. In many verses, Allah Himself commands mankind to ponder over the creation, and mentions these as an indication of His Existence and Power. (3:190-191)

One final note on the concept of science as an i'jaaz of the Qur'aan: There can never be a real contradictions between the Qur'aan and the Laws of Allah concerning the creation (i.e. actual science). The Qur'aan is the Book of Allah, and since it is from Allah "there is no doubt in it" (2:1)

Likewise, the laws that govern the creation are also from Allah. What is studied as 'science', on the other hand, is the attempt by man to understand the creation and laws of Allah. Therefore it is possible fro a scientific assumption to be incorrect, and this is clearly demonstrated by historically scientific 'facts' as the Earth being flat, or the orbiting of the Sun around the Earth. These concepts were believed to in so strongly by the 'scientists' of their time that, on occasion, those who opposed them were harassed and even killed. Yet, later scientists discovered the inaccuracy of these concepts.

Therefore, when there is a conflict between the meaning of a clear, explicit verse (meaning qat'ee ad-dalaalah) of the Qur'aan and 'modern' science. a Muslim must take the verse of the Qur'aan - without hesitation - over any scientific 'fact'. A rejection of such a verse, or even the apparent meaning of such a verse, would be tantamount to a rejection of Allah's knowledge. For example, the theory of evolution is, for the most part, agreed upon by the majority of non-Muslim scholars. Whether there is strong proof to back up the theory or not is irrelevant - the Qur'aan is clear that Allah created Adam from His own Hands, and "From him He created his mate, and from these two He spread forth many men and women" (4:1)

Therefore a Muslim can never believe in the theory that men are descendants of apes, no matter what "proof" might seem to exist.2 Neither is it allowed, as some Muslim rationalists have done, to try to interpret clear Qur'aanic texts to suit modern theories. Following the above example, to try to interpret the story of the creation of Adam and Eve as actually having been the creation of some Neanderthal neo-human species is almost as blasphemous as rejecting the verse in the first place!

It is possible, however, for there to be an apparent conflict between a verse and a scientific fact, when no such conflict exists. This occurs when some scholars take one of the possible linguistic meanings of a vers, such that this meaning conforms with the verse, but is not the only meaning that may be derived from it (basically, the verse is dhannee ad-dalaalah). For example some scholars have understood certain verses of the Qur'aan (e.g., "And it is He who has spread out the Earth" (13:3), and (15:9)) to indicate that the Earth is flat, since the phrase 'madd' occurs, which means 'to spread out'. However, this verse is not explicit in stating taht the Earth is flat, and to conclude this from the above verse requires a degree of interpretation. Since there exists clear proof that the Earth is not flat, this interpretation must be rejected. The meaning of the verse, therefore, is that Allah has created this Earth as a very vast place for mankind, and not that the Earth is flat (This principle may also apply to the verse 'baynas sulbi wat taraaib" in soorah At-Taariq referring to semen and interpreted as "coming forth from between the backbone and the ribs or breastbone" - Web Ed).

Also, it is essential that scientific facts are not read in where they do not exist. Unfortunately, this has become an all too common trend among 'modernistic' Muslims who have specialised in science, but are not very familiar with the interpretation of the Qur'aan.3 Once again, the Qur'aan "...is a book of guidance...and not a book of science, nor a mine of cryptic notes on scientific facts."4

For example, many people interpret the following verse as a prediction of space travel by man:

O assembly of Men and Jinns! If you have opower to pass through the zones of the Heavens and Earth - then pass! But you will never be able to pass them except with authority (from Allah) (55:33)

However, a look at the next verse, and the authentic tafseers of Ibn Katheer and At-Tabaree, will show that this verse is in reference to the jinns listening to the whispers of the angels in the Heaven (or to the Resurrection of the creation on the Day of Judgment), and not to inter-galactic travel!

In conclusion, although the scientific aspect of the Qur'aan is one of the aspects of it's i'jaaz, it must be put in its proper place, and a proper methodology needs to be followed in order to extract examples of such verses. It does more harm than good when certain verses int he Qur'aan are 'bent over backwards,' so as to say, to seek to prove that they contain certain implied scientific facts. One only needs to read works in which this methodology was followed to see how ludicrous the conclusions are. (For example, Muhammad Rasheed Ridaa (d. 1935), one of the founders of the 'Modernist' movement, claimed that the 'Jinns' that the Qur'aan was referring to actually alluded to the discovery of disease-arraying microbes!) When such facts are clear and explicit from the verse, they should be mentioned (such as the examples quoted above - and in this book, inshaa-allah), but when they go against the intent and meaning of the verse, they should be abandoned.


How the Qur'aan relates to Geology and the Origin of the Earth

Professor Alfred Kroner: ?and that many of the statements made at the time could be proven, but that modern scientific methods are now in a position to prove what Muhammad said 1400 years ago.

We present to you Professor Alfred Kroner who is one of the world?s most famous geologists. He is a Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenburg University, Mainz, Germany. We met him and presented several Qur'aanic verses and Ahadeeth of the Prophet Muhammad (sallAllahu ?alaihi wa sallam). He studied and commented on them. Then we had a discussion with him.

Professor Kroner said: "Thinking about many of these questions and thinking where Muhammad came from, he was after all a Bedouin. I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case."

Professor Kroner chose an example from the Qur'aan which proved to him why the Qur'aan could not have come from Muhammad (sallAllahu ?alaihi wa sallam) himself. The example which Professor Kroner chose is a description in the Qur'aan of the fact that this universe had its beginnings in one single entity. Allah, may He be Exalted and Glorified said: "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together [ratqan], before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing?" [Qur'aan 21:30] As you know, it was water that allowed all living things to thrive.

The meaning of ratqan in this verse, as Ibn Abbas, Mujaahid, and others (Raziallaahu-t'aala-anha) said, may Allah be pleased with all of them, is that the heavens and the earth were stuck together or blended together, and that they were later separated from each other. Professor Kroner used this as an example to prove that no human being during the time of Prophet Muhammad (sallAllahu ?alaihi wa sallam), could have known this.

Professor Kroner: "Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics 1400 years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind for instance that the earth and the heavens had the same origin, or many others of the questions that we have discussed here."

Professor Kroner, so it seemed to us, has a special talent of being evasive. For example, we asked him to describe the geological conditions of Arabia. ?Was Arabia full of orchards and rivers?? He said: "During the Snow Age." And it is further known that the North Polar icebergs are slowly moving southwards. When those polar icebergs become relatively close to the Arabian Peninsula, the weather will change and Arabia will become one of the greenest and wettest parts of the world. We asked him: ?Will Arabia become the land of orchards and rivers?? He said: "Yes, it is a scientific fact."

This astonished us, and we wondered how he could state this as a scientific fact while it was related to the future and we asked: ?Why?? He said: "Because the new Snow Age has actually started. And we can see the snow crawling once again from the North Pole southwards. In fact, the polar snow is now on the way to get closer to the Arabian Peninsula. We can see the signs of this in the snow blizzards striking the northern parts of Europe and America every winter. Scientists have other signs and information proving the actual beginning of another Snow Age. It is a scientific fact."

So we said to him: ?What you have just mentioned has only been known to scientists after a long series of discoveries and with the help of specialized instruments. But we have already found this mentioned by the Prophet Muhammad (sallAllahu ?alaihi wa sallam) 1400 years ago. He said in a hadeeth transmitted in Saheeh Muslim:

The Last Hour will not come upon us until the lands of the Arabs are once again pasture lands and filled with rivers.

At this point we asked Professor Kroner: ?Who told the Prophet Muhammad (sallAllahu ?alaihi wa sallam), that the lands of the Arabs were once filled with orchards and rivers?? He immediately replied: "The Romans." This reminded me of Professor Kroner?s evasive ability. We asked him another question, we said to him: ?But who informed the Prophet Muhammad (sallAllahu ?alaihi wa sallam), that the lands of the Arabs would once again become pasturelands and be filled with rivers??. Professor Kroner becomes evasive if embarrassed. But whenever he was faced with the truth, he is courageous enough to state his opinion frankly and thus he replied: "This could have been known to him only through revelation from above."

Finally, after our discussions with him, he made the following comments: "If you combine all these and you combine all those statements that are being made in the Qur'aan in terms that relate to the earth and the formation of the earth and science in general, you can basically say that statements made there in many ways are true. They can now be confirmed by scientific methods, and in a way you can say that the Qur'aan is a simple science text book for the simple man, and that many of the statements made in there at that time could not be proven but that modern scientific methods are now in a position to prove what Muhammad said 1400 years ago."

Allah confirms in His Book that:

"This is no less than reminder to (all), the worlds. And you shall certainly know the truth of it all after a while." (Qur'aan 38:87-88).


On the Sensory Characteristics of the Skin

Dr. Tagatat Tejasen: "Laa Ilaahaa IllAllah Muhammad Rasool Allah!"

This man is uttering the Islamic creed (Shahaadah) thus declaring that he is becoming a Muslim. This occurred during the Eighth Saudi Medical Conference which was convened in Riyadh. He is Professor Tejatat Tejasen, Chairman of the Department of Anatomy at Chiang Mai University in Thailand. He was previously the Dean of the Faculty of Medicine at the same university.

We presented to Professor Tejasen some Qur'aanic verses and Prophetic Ahadeeth which deal with his specialization in the field of anatomy. He commented that they also had in their Buddhist books very accurate descriptions of embryonic developmental stages. We told him that we were very anxious and interested to see those descriptions and learn about these books. A year later, Professor Tejasen came to King Abdul Aziz University as an outside examiner. We reminded him of the statement he made one year before, but he apologized and said that he in fact had made that statement without ascertaining the matter. However, when he checked the Buddhist books he found that they contained nothing of relevance to the subject.

Upon this, we presented to him a lecture written by Professor Keith Moore about the compatibility of modern embryology with what is contained in the Qur'aan and the Sunnah and we asked Professor Tejasen if he knew of Professor Keith Moore. He replied that he knew him of course, adding that Professor Moore was one of the most world-renowned scientists in that field.

When Professor Tejasen studied this article he also was greatly astonished. We asked him several questions in his field of specialization. One of the questions pertained to modern discoveries in dermatology about the sensory characteristics of the skin. Dr. Tejasen responded: "Yes if the burn is deep."

It was stated to Dr. Tejasen: You will be interested to know that in this book, the Holy Book - the Qur'aan, there was a reference 1400 years ago which pertains to the moment of punishment of the unbelievers by the fire of Hell and it states that when their skin is destroyed, Allah makes another skin for them so that they perceive the punishment by a fire, indicating knowledge about the nerve endings in the skin, and the verse is as follows:

Those who reject our signs, We shall soon cast into the fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the chastisement. Truly Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. (Qur'aan 4:56).

We asked: So do you agree that this is a reference to the importance of the nerve endings in the skin in sensation, 1400 years ago? Dr. Tejasen responded: "Yes I agree."

"This knowledge about sensation had been known long before, because it says that if somebody does something wrong, then he will be punished by burning his skin and then Allah puts a new skin on him, covers him, to make him know that the test is painful again. That means they knew many years ago that the receptor of pain sensation must be on the skin, so they put a new skin on."

The skin (see Fig. 8.1) is the center of sensitivity to burns. Thus, if the skin is completely burnt by fire, it looses its sensitivity. It is for this reason that Allah will punish the unbelievers on the Day of Judgment by returning to them their skins time after time, as He, the Exalted and Glorified, said in the Qur'aan:

Those who reject our signs, We shall soon cast into the fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the chastisement. Truly Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. (Qur'aan 4:56).

We asked him the following question: ?Is it possible that these verses came to the Prophet Muhammad, (sallAllahu ?alaihi wa sallam), from a human source?? Professor Tejasen conceded that they could have never come from any human source. But he still asked about the source of that knowledge and from where could Muhammad have possibly received it?

We said, "From Allah, the Most Glorified and Most Exalted." Then he asked: "But who is Allah?"

We replied: He is the Creator of all that is in existence. If you find wisdom then it is because it comes only from the one Who is Most Wise. If you find knowledge in the making of this universe, it is because the universe is the creation of the One Who has all the knowledge. If you find perfection in the composition of these creations, then it is proof to you that it is the creation of the One Who Knows Best, and if you find mercy, then this bears witness to the fact that it is the creation of the One Who is Most Merciful. In the same way, if you perceive creation as belonging to one unified order and tied together firmly, then this is proof that it is the creation of the Only Creator, May He be Glorified and Exalted.


Fig. 8.1

Professor Tejasen agreed with what we said to him. He returned to his country where he delivered several lectures about his new knowledge and discoveries. We were informed that five of his students converted to Islam as a result of these lectures. Then at the Eighth Saudi Medical Conference held in Riyadh, Professor Tejasen attended a series of lectures on Medical signs in the Qur'aan and Sunnah.

Professor Tejasen spent four days with several scholars, Muslims and non-Muslims, talking about this phenomenon in the Qur'aan and the Sunnah. At the end of those sessions Professor Tejasen stood up and said:

"In the last three years I became interested in the Qur'aan, which Shaykh Abdul-Majeed Az-Zindani gave me. Last year, I got Professor Keith Moore?s latest script from the shaykh. He asked me to translate it into the Thai language and to give a few lectures to the Muslims in Thailand. I have fulfilled his request. You can see that in the video tape that I have given to the shaykh as a gift. From my studies and from what I have learned throughout this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Qur'aan 1400 years ago must be the truth, that can be proven by scientific means. Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a messenger who relayed this truth which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the One Who is an eligible Creator. This Creator must be Allah, or God. Therefore, I think this is the time to say ?Laa ilaaha illAllah?, that there is no god to worship except Allah, ?Muhammad Rasool Allah?, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah..."

"I have not only learned from the scientific knowledge in the conference, but also the great chance of meeting many new scientists and making many new friends among the participants. The most precious thing that I have gained by coming to this conference is ?Laa ilaaha IllAllah, Muhammad Rasool Allah?, and to have become a Muslim."

The truth verily comes from Allah who said in the Qur'aan: And those to whom knowledge has come see that the (revelation) sent down to thee from thy Lord - that is the truth, and that it guides to the path of the Exalted (in Might), worthy of all praise. (Qur'aan 34:6).


Would you like to know more, evolving? The Creation of Man? How Islam relates to Astronomy? Using reason & logic and armed with this information, I concluded that God is real, and that He did in fact reveal His message to humans centuries ago. I have to hand it to you, evolving. You're one of the most intelligent unbelievers I've debated with so far (I'm not being sarcastic). I hope you read everything in this post, and draw your own conclusions using your ability to reason.

Inshaa'Allah.


--------------------

Edited by Zahid (03/26/02 03:40 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinebedetached
supercalifragolisticexpialidocious

Registered: 01/20/02
Posts: 74
Loc: your mind
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #590146 - 03/26/02 03:34 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

come on now, who's going to read all that babble......that was just absolutly too long


--------------------
through our senses the world appears. through our reactions we create delusions. without reactions the world becomes clear.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
Re: God Exists [Re: bedetached]
    #590158 - 03/26/02 03:52 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

come on now, who's going to read all that babble......that was just absolutly too long

Someone who wishes to discover the truth.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineseeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #590430 - 03/26/02 09:05 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

If you continue to believe that man did not strugle for every shred of information he has ever gained you will never fully understand or apreciate the power of the analitical mind. Why do you need to believe that any knowledge was "handed down"? Are we so ignorant that we can't understand the nature of the world around us? Fourteen-hundered years ago is not that long in the history of human society and there have been many advanced enough to gain at least some understanding. Just because the barbarians always invaded doesn't mean that the information was lost. Which is why we still posess at least some of the knowledge of Greece and Rome, both of which predate the "Prophet" by a wide margin. You are going to need more proof than, "Those filthy savages couldn't have know that!". Personaly, I get tired of people telling others that before Christianity ( or Islam) we were all just a bunch of ignorant pagans just barely getting by. I'm just not buying it.


--------------------
In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom.

Thou art God (but so am i :wink:)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineseeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #590431 - 03/26/02 09:06 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

If you continue to believe that man did not strugle for every shred of information he has ever gained you will never fully understand or apreciate the power of the analitical mind. Why do you need to believe that any knowledge was "handed down"? Are we so ignorant that we can't understand the nature of the world around us? Fourteen-hundered years ago is not that long in the history of human society and there have been many advanced enough to gain at least some understanding. Just because the barbarians always invaded doesn't mean that the information was lost. Which is why we still posess at least some of the knowledge of Greece and Rome, both of which predate the "Prophet" by a wide margin. You are going to need more proof than, "Those filthy savages couldn't have know that!". Personaly, I get tired of people telling others that before Christianity ( or Islam) we were all just a bunch of ignorant "pagans" just barely getting by. I'm just not buying it.


--------------------
In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom.

Thou art God (but so am i :wink:)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #590469 - 03/26/02 09:30 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Honestly, Zahid, you should really consider taking a class on logic. Your ends (prooving Islam right) are corrupting your means (your... ahem, "logic and reason"). If you expect anyone to take you seriously, try not to boast about something you cannot do. St. Anselm tried prooving the existence of God... the invalidity of his argument was due to poor assumptions, but the invalidity of yours is due to EVERYTHING. You have selective interpretation skills. You cite "reliable" scientists (that no one cares to verify). You're just as much of a whack job as those pro-choice assholes that bomb abortion clinics.

GET A CLUE!
Forcing your "truth" on others will never work anyways.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #590523 - 03/26/02 10:26 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Zahid,

Why do you ask me to prove that all Muslims etc. have ceased intellectual activity instead
of attempting to answer the question that I posed? Oh, for the record Zen Budhism makes
a hell of a lot more sense than all Abrahamic religions combined.

When did I quote Jung?

You stated "While I can't directly prove the existance of God in a way that scientists
can prove the earth is round, (God would never allow this, for a man to prove His
existance) but I can prove He exists using logic and reason."


Where's the logic that you use to prove your god exists? Do you even know what
logic is? Have you ever heard of a syllogism? How about 'Set Theory'? If you want
people to accept your beliefs as being true your going to have to provide some compelling
reason other than citing religious scriptures designed to be followed by a bunch of
barbaric illiterates. Quoting the Quran and all these other people does not prove a damn
thing, except that you know how to cut and paste with your mouse.

I would seriously like to be shown that your mythology has a basis in fact instead
of wishful thinking, but you're content to prattle on with baseless assertions.

Believing in something does not make it true. Try believing that you can fly by flapping
your arms, have as much faith as you can muster, will this create the reality that you desire?




"I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny
over the mind of man."
-- Thomas Jefferson (1800)

Edited by evolving (03/26/02 10:32 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFliquid
Back from being gone.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/18/02
Posts: 6,953
Loc: omotive
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #1382207 - 03/16/03 09:18 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Just bumped this nice old post from the good old days... Enjoy it... :grin: 


--------------------
:dancing: My latest music! :yesnod:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #1382741 - 03/17/03 04:10 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

While I can't directly prove the existance of God in a way that scientists can prove the earth is round, (God would never allow this, for a man to prove His existance)

How do you "know" this? Sounds like you just made it up on the spot.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDramamine
Stranger
Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 34
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #1384347 - 03/17/03 12:30 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Someone who wishes to discover the truth.




That is a pretty arrogant statement. I believe truth can only be found within one's self and not looked at as an "I'm right - you're wrong" type of situation.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #1384643 - 03/17/03 01:54 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

You constantly say absolutes that hold no merit, how can one discuss when your say you "know" the truth?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Swami]
    #1385565 - 03/17/03 05:40 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Shaddup... This topic is from last year.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 8 months, 18 days
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #1385673 - 03/17/03 06:13 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Okay, this thread is too big to read through, so I'm sure a few people have pointed out some things I'm going to say but here goes.

"- The existence of the three abrahamic faiths: Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. All share very similar characteristics and teachings because the prophecies came from the same God. The births of these religions occurred centuries apart."

They came into being centuries apart, but they're really just branching off from one another. They all came from the same part of the world. Everyone knows Judaism is just an offshoot of Christianity. If you look back far enough, you'll find that Judaism is an offshoot of Islam. Or vice versa, I'm not so well versed in that history.

"God is so beyond human comprehension that all we can handle is a written word passed down from a messenger. You can put a donkey in a room with a computer for 20 years, it doesn?t mean he?ll understand the how it works and operates."

The universe is beyond comprehension. We don't understand enough to know if there is a god.

"Many atheists will argue that organized religion is simply a ?successful? cult because thousands of years ago people easily bought it. Why are there billions of Muslims and Christians today then?"

You're putting words in our mouths. There are dozens of reasons why people buy into religions, they want to believe, it gives them hope, they're gullible, they've been raised to believe that. These religions were popular, and have been passed down for generations. These religions are the biggest religions for the same reason that American culture is so big right now: they were the religions of those people who had money and power. Christianity became the official religion for the Roman empire, that caused it to be spread around the world.

"If the person denounced previous belief in nothing, and converted to Christianity as a result of this experience, he in fact did believe in God all his life, only deceived himself from seeing it in striking clarity."

What's that based on? Even if that is true, that doesn't mean god is real, that just means a lot of people believe in God. I'd have no trouble taking acid and watching a movie about Jesus, I've watched televangelists on acid, and I find them hilarious.

"For many of us, it takes a generous dose of psychedelics to get to know ourselves better. But, Something, somewhere has to know the secrets of our hearts that we are not even aware of ourselves."

It does? There's no reason to believe that. This is like saying "I have proof there's a god: there has to be a god". If you build your beliefs up so that your view of reality MUST include a god, then you'll think there has to be a god. If you free yourself of this kind of thinking, then you won't be using this kind of twisted logic.

"Many who chose not to believe in God do it out of disagreement with some of it. They do not agree with the idea of eternal torment for not believing, or that they cannot have sex with members of the same gender, so they refuse to open their hearts to the truth. "

I don't buy that for one second. The "truths" that you speak of are baseless. If this were the case those people would devise their own set of beliefs that allow them to do the things they want. Some people have done this.

A human being can convince itself that anything is the truth. Just because someone, even yourself, believes something to be the absolute truth does not make it so.

"- Physics and science. Supported in Islam.

- Evolution. Supported in Islam."

I heard some guy talking about this on TV the other day, and I had to laugh. The links they make are kind of shoddy. There are a lot of stretches. You can find whatever you want in the scriptures if you want. If some scientists came out with a new theory claiming that the universe was created when it was farted out a monkey's ass, then someone would find something in the Quran to back that up.

None of the points you've provided are really even evidence for the exitance of god.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Phluck]
    #1385821 - 03/17/03 06:57 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Thank you for contributing to this thread, Phluck. I've got the runs, so I'll make this quick (what's another year, anyway.)

They came into being centuries apart, but they're really just branching off from one another. They all came from the same part of the world. Everyone knows Judaism is just an offshoot of Christianity. If you look back far enough, you'll find that Judaism is an offshoot of Islam. Or vice versa, I'm not so well versed in that history.

You're not well versed in that history yet you can make the claim that the Abrahamic faiths are 'offshoots' of each other because they originated in roughly the same area (Judaism and Christianity originated in what is today Israel, and Islam began in what is now Saudi Arabia). You don't even seem to know the order of which each religion came yet you're so opiniated on them. The man Jesus Christ existed, and it's fairly obvious he knew something that ye know not (sorry about that).

The universe is beyond comprehension. We don't understand enough to know if there is a god.

Sorry about that: God and all Creation is beyond human comprehension. Thank you.

You're putting words in our mouths. There are dozens of reasons why people buy into religions, they want to believe, it gives them hope, they're gullible, they've been raised to believe that. These religions were popular, and have been passed down for generations. These religions are the biggest religions for the same reason that American culture is so big right now: they were the religions of those people who had money and power. Christianity became the official religion for the Roman empire, that caused it to be spread around the world.

Religion is to popular culture? Heh. People believe because they've recognized eternal love.

I heard some guy talking about this on TV the other day, and I had to laugh. The links they make are kind of shoddy. There are a lot of stretches. You can find whatever you want in the scriptures if you want. If some scientists came out with a new theory claiming that the universe was created when it was farted out a monkey's ass, then someone would find something in the Quran to back that up.

You gonna bark all day little doggie, or are you gonna bite? It is my challenge to you then, to somehow, find a verse that 'can' support that (depends how literally insane you can get, literally). The Qur'an isn't the issue here.



--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 8 months, 18 days
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #1385876 - 03/17/03 07:13 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

"You're not well versed in that history yet you can make the claim that the Abrahamic faiths are 'offshoots' of each other because they originated in roughly the same area (Judaism and Christianity originated in what is today Israel, and Islam began in what is now Saudi Arabia)."

They originated in roughly the same area, and are also very similar.

"People believe because they've recognized eternal love."

Or because they're afraid of eternal damnation. Religion is cultural, and when it's popular, it's pop culture. To make someone believe something, you just need to sell it to them properly, it doesn't really matter whether it's a doctrine of love or of hate, you can still make tons of people believe it. Cults suceed all the time. Bizarre "alternative medicine" constantly does really well despite the fact it doesn't work at all. These smaller faiths generally fizzle out, but if they catch the public's attention the right way at the right time, they can explode, and that's all that happened with Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Buddhism and Hinduism did quite well also. Why didn't you mention them?

It's all about the sale. If Scientology hired an A-list marketing firm and started getting prime time TV spots I'd bet they'd be able to beat the shit out of Islam.


"The Qur'an isn't the issue here."

Then why did you bring it up in your post? I don't have a copy of the Quran in front of me, and I don't have years to wade through it, so I'm going to have to turn down your challenge.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSheepish
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/02/02
Posts: 10,137
Loc: Exile
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: God Exists [Re: Zahid]
    #1386431 - 03/18/03 01:09 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Have you ever died?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   OlympusMyco.com Olympus Myco Polypropylene Grow Bags   Myyco.com APE Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Feminized Cannabis Seeds


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Dose God exist? Take a look around.
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Bavet 7,022 68 02/06/03 10:46 AM
by Strumpling
* Does God Exist? part one
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
MentalHygene 16,068 126 02/22/02 08:26 PM
by ArCh_TemPlaR
* Does God Exist? (lets get to the point!) MentalHygene 1,144 12 02/08/02 10:19 AM
by Seuss
* Why religion obscures the light of God.
( 1 2 3 4 all )
infidelGOD 4,107 79 07/03/23 03:39 PM
by Moses_Davidson
* God Cannot Exist
( 1 2 all )
jim_dewit 5,440 39 08/22/02 06:29 PM
by Xlea321
* it seems therefore, that God does not exist. whiterastahippie 1,795 12 11/11/11 02:01 AM
by thefloodbehind
* When will you all understand? There is no god!
( 1 2 3 4 ... 13 14 )
Fliquid 21,770 263 09/22/11 10:30 AM
by Cactilove
* Are you a slave to a God that doesn't exist?
( 1 2 3 all )
Larrythescaryrex 7,619 42 07/30/02 04:00 PM
by Larrythescaryrex

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
11,845 topic views. 0 members, 1 guests and 17 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.029 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 15 queries.