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Offlinelucid
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Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ?
    #1947619 - 09/24/03 01:21 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

i.e. no Hell no judgement no condemnation ?
A God who loves u so darn much that u cannot
even begin to comprehend...
And I mean completely unattached, unconditional love


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: lucid]
    #1947645 - 09/24/03 01:27 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

I do not think that God exists in mans image. Hell, judgement, condemnation, love... these are manmade concepts.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: Seuss]
    #1947650 - 09/24/03 01:29 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

I believe that our universe is a division of one of the small cells in... oh, I don't know, God's right eye.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1947670 - 09/24/03 01:34 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
I believe that our universe is a division of one of the small cells in... oh, I don't know, God's right eye.
Peace. 



That must be it, left one's patched :lol: 


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1947671 - 09/24/03 01:35 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Yes, he is unconditionally loving, but also just and holy. He never condemns people to hell, we send ourselves there. I just can't wait to see the replies after this post!


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: Funguy]
    #1947683 - 09/24/03 01:38 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Funguy said:
Yes, he is unconditionally loving, but also just and holy. He never condemns people to hell, we send ourselves there. I just can't wait to see the replies after this post!




So, what exactly is Hell?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1947700 - 09/24/03 01:42 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Funguy said:
Yes, he is unconditionally loving, but also just and holy.  He never condemns people to hell, we send ourselves there.  I just can't wait to see the replies after this post! 




So, what exactly is Hell?
Peace. 



Eternal Exruciating Infinite Pain/Despair/Suffering beyond your
wildest immagination...in short, un-fun  :rolleyes:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: lucid]
    #1947768 - 09/24/03 01:57 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Hm..... what causes this suffering beyond your wildest imagination (keep in mind that my imagination is pretty fucking wild)?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1947799 - 09/24/03 02:03 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Hm..... what causes this suffering beyond your wildest imagination (keep in mind that my imagination is pretty fucking wild)?
Peace.



Doing anything to invoke the wrath of God...
The list is too long to type here...He's kinda touchy...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: lucid]
    #1947818 - 09/24/03 02:07 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

lucid said:
Doing anything to invoke the wrath of God...
The list is too long to type here...He's kinda touchy...




The wrath of God.. why would God have wrath? Does God even know about his Creation, or does his Creation like compose him?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1947846 - 09/24/03 02:15 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

lucid said:
Doing anything to invoke the wrath of God...
The list is too long to type here...He's kinda touchy... 




The wrath of God.. why would God have wrath? Does God even know about his Creation, or does his Creation like compose him?
Peace. 



Man u obviously havn't been reading the right books ! :lol:
All those ideas u have n all those Neal Walsh books r all
the work of the Devil. Read some ol Scripture by those
people who had nothing of monotary value at stake...
God has told us of his wrath and "furious anger"....
in so many words :smirk:
it's all true u know...it's been pounded into me from
generations... and Fear is what keeps it all going... 


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: lucid]
    #1948001 - 09/24/03 02:57 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1948009 - 09/24/03 03:00 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

to err is human

to forgive is divine


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1948032 - 09/24/03 03:07 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

The idea of hell is pure insanity.

Torture makes no sense whatsoever. Especially eternal torment!

What would be the point in it?

Torture is used by humans to control another person in some way. It is has also been used to conduct experiments.

What purpose would eternal torture serve? :confused: 


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: Seuss]
    #1948057 - 09/24/03 03:15 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
I do not think that God exists in mans image.  Hell, judgement, condemnation, love... these are manmade concepts. 



Good answer. :thumbup: 


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: sirreal]
    #1948089 - 09/24/03 03:25 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

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Offlinelucid
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1948166 - 09/24/03 03:55 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Enter said:
Here's my take on the matter:

God loves humanity but God loathes some humans AND they're actions. This sounds tough on the ears but I really am convinced of this.

God is a Creator who gave humans quite a bit of options in what to do with our lives (in terms of specifics). He gave us the ability to love one another, hate one another, or be indifferent to love and hate. Certainly love should be esteemed more than hate and more than indifference (numbness).

Therefore, if love is esteemed more than hate (as being far better), all living beings (including God) must "feel" different about love and hate. Love and hate each cause a different reaction.

I'm sure many of you have either felt love for at least a few minutes if not much longer. I'm also sure all of you have experienced more than a fair share of hatred towards you (whether on a sublte or blatant level). There should be no question that the two are VERY VERY DIFFERENT experiences.

God (being our overseer) must despise those who choose hatred as a subtle or blatant path. God (being our caretaker at times) must despise those who do us evil. God (being loving toward humanity) gives each human the time for repentance to turn away from a "mode" of hatred, but if unwilling, that person will reap the very anger of God.





Why would a creator give the ability to it's creation to
damn itself ?
If I were to design an arificially intelligent machine
would I give it the ability to torture itself eternally ?
wouldn't seem very compassionte of me...


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: lucid]
    #1948172 - 09/24/03 03:57 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Um... so, we know then that there is something that we can damn ourselves to, then?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1948178 - 09/24/03 04:00 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

> Um... so, we know then that there is something that we can damn ourselves to, then?

To be reborn and live again.  :smile:



--------------------
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Offlinelucid
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1948179 - 09/24/03 04:00 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Um... so, we know then that there is something that we can damn ourselves to, then?
Peace. 



Yup, according to the books I've been readin :smirk:
kinda scary, it's quite easy to doom ourselves too...
taking intoxicants is one of the methods as is
questioning God or his existance (as in this thread),
I'm doomed :confused: 


--------------------
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Offlinelucid
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: Seuss]
    #1948183 - 09/24/03 04:01 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Um... so, we know then that there is something that we can damn ourselves to, then?

To be reborn and live again.  :smile:

 



damn it, I ain't gonna  be brought into existance again, not
without a fight :tongue:
no more existance for me...it's debilitating...  :rolleyes: 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: lucid]
    #1948192 - 09/24/03 04:07 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

> it's quite easy to doom ourselves too...

Ah, but lets add some perspective. What if heaven and hell coexist within our everyday life and reality. We have the option, through freewill, of enjoying the pure bliss of heaven or living the painful agonies of hell. Each time we give into our anger or hatred, we dip down into hell. When we share love and live life, we rise up into heaven. Death is not required for either.


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: Seuss]
    #1948197 - 09/24/03 04:09 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

there are more ways of entering Hell btw, which has nothing
to do with Good n Evil...Existential Angst and
Philosophy comes to mind :frown:


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: lucid]
    #1948221 - 09/24/03 04:17 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

God does not despise any human, only the sin that they do. Hell is not a place of eternal torment, that is the Lake of Fire. Hell is a place where we are separated from God's presence until the Day of Judgement. As we are alive, all people are in the presence of God.
God created Hell and the Lake of Fire specifically for Satan and the angels who accompanied him is his rebellion. Satan knows his fate, so he wants to drag as many humans in with him.
Here's a little story:
There are 100 people on death row, murders and such. Well, the Warden has decided that he will all of the convicts that believe him. He told one convict to tell the others that they are free.
The convict goes from cell to cell telling others.
A jailer, jealous of the warden's power, started spreading lies about the warden and what he did. Because of this some believe the convict, others don't. The ones that don't try to figure another way out, digging out, hiding in the laundry basket, etc. They even tell others that everything is a lie, the warden said any such thing.
In the end, very few convicts were released, most chose to stay in the cell, waiting for death. The jailer was chained in a cell for obstructing the freedom of the convicts. The convicts who chose not to believe were killed.

This was the best story I could make up. The convicts had plenty of chances to believe and walk out, but many of them never did. They CHOSE not to believe, to not accept a free gift.
The jailer represents Satan, who wants as many humans as he can get to come with him.
I know many of you might tire of my proselytizing, but that is one of the ideas of my faith, to spread it to others. Thank you.


--------------------

OTD UNDERDOGS

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: lucid]
    #1948240 - 09/24/03 04:23 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: Funguy]
    #1948249 - 09/24/03 04:27 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1948259 - 09/24/03 04:31 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

What I meant was that God HATES sin, not the sinner. ALL people have the ability to accept or decline Christ. Even Christians will be rewarded in Heaven based on their works. Heaven is the main prize, but we will also obtain other things as well.


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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: Funguy]
    #1948270 - 09/24/03 04:35 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1948287 - 09/24/03 04:40 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

In that term, "hate" means "love less."

Jesus himself said that we should "hate" our family. Not in a sense of actual hatred, but we should love Christ and God more than our family. God also gave Esau blessings as well.


--------------------

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Offlinelucid
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1948313 - 09/24/03 04:49 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Enter said:
Quote:

Why would a creator give the ability to it's creation to
damn itself ?
If I were to design an arificially intelligent machine
would I give it the ability to torture itself eternally ?
wouldn't seem very compassionte of me... 






And what mankind does every day of existence is 'compassionate' to you?




I never said that...I give up :confused:
what I said is so simple: "would a compassionate God
create entities and give them the ability to torture themselves"
that does not seem compassionate to me.
this is not a new concept this is an age old debate.
Interesting that all religious people seem to deal with
this by evading the direct question.
In any case u answered the original question of the thread,
so I'm infering your answer is "No".


--------------------
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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: lucid]
    #1948316 - 09/24/03 04:51 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

The answer "yes"
The compassionate God gave us the free will to choose what to do. An incompassionate God would have made us all robots instead, with no choice of what we do.
Is that a good answer?


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OTD UNDERDOGS

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Offlinelucid
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: Funguy]
    #1948322 - 09/24/03 04:52 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Funguy said:
The answer "yes"
The compassionate God gave us the free will to choose what to do.  An incompassionate God would have made us all robots instead, with no choice of what we do.
Is that a good answer? 



It an answer, I have no reason to judge u :smile:
I wus jus curious what people thought... 


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: lucid]
    #1948328 - 09/24/03 04:56 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

I don't know.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: Funguy]
    #1948332 - 09/24/03 04:57 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Funguy said:
The answer "yes"
The compassionate God gave us the free will to choose what to do. An incompassionate God would have made us all robots instead, with no choice of what we do.
Is that a good answer?



btw, technically, free will is not an indicator of compassion. If u were created desireless and in ultimate bliss u would not ask
for free will - by definition u would be desireless...
If u mean God could have simply torutured us without any choice,
well that would seem like an insane God...from my current
perspective...


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: lucid]
    #1948356 - 09/24/03 05:07 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

What I meant was that God gave us the ability to choose what we wanted to do. BTW, we were in ultimate bliss until Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (which Satan tempted them to do). "When they ate of the fruit, their eyes were opened, knowing good and evil." God told them not to, but he did not forcefully make them not eat it.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: lucid]
    #1948378 - 09/24/03 05:16 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

"Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ?"

No. I think that's absurd


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1948440 - 09/24/03 05:32 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Enter said:
God literally hates some human beings. Literally. God literally hated Esau. There are other accounts in the Bible of God literally hating certain individuals. The word "hate" is literally used.




So, some book said that some idea of God hated some guy, so that is proof that God hates people? I'm sorry; the Bible has a lot of good ideas and all, but I don't see The Bible as some definite proof that everything contained within it is unquestionably valid.

Especially how the stories of old rulers back then get mixed up with God, and so forth....

Anyways.  There is a big difference in Karma and a judgemental God. Karma makes sense because every thought we have and every action we carry out has some sort of effect that produces consequences, good and bad.

I just can't believe in the idea of some being known as God judging us or being attached to his Creation. Hell, if God is so much more evolved and higher consciousness then us, He wouldn't have any attachment, anyways... :grin:

Hmm.. anyone got a spare watch? I just can't get over this dance.. :grin:
Peace.
Peace.


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
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Like being here
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OfflineTao
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1948600 - 09/24/03 06:14 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Its always made the most sense to me that a higher power created this existence to serve as the ultimate form of 'entertainment' if you will. by creating intelligent beings with some parameters, lots of puzzles and a near-free will, it's like the ultimate soap opera, play, reality show, or whatever you want to call it, its the ultimate *thing* to observe. The question remains what does he do with these souls when they finish? What does a girl do with her dolls when she finishes playing with them for ever? does she put them into a case, separating her favorite ones from her less favorite ones? Or does she just move on, the dolls have had their time and now they are finished. I'm not going to say i know what happens to us when we are 'done' but, i find it an easy possibility that our time on life is what we have, to enjoy as much we can. Its more than possible that we create these ideas of what will happen to our 'souls' when we die to give ourselves hope that this ride will never end. but all things we see come to an end, why shouldnt this?


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: Tao]
    #1948628 - 09/24/03 06:18 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

"we create these ideas of what will happen to our 'souls' when we die to give ourselves hope that this ride will never end"
perspective is an amazing thing, I would gladly hop off this ride in a heartbeat :tongue:


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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: lucid]
    #1948651 - 09/24/03 06:23 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

I've done my work Tao, it's time to step aside :grin:
just kidding :tongue:


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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1949076 - 09/24/03 08:25 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

God hates? Sorry to sound blunt, but I'm going to have to go ahead and say no. Hate is a pretty strong word, and frankly I cannot see the loving God taking what goes on down here that personal. I mean, people do some horrible things I admit - but I don't think anyone really understands the perils of each deed they carry out. The light of God helps us understand the bad we have done, and how good it is to be kind and good, and what it means to return to Him. It seems the more externally we view God, the more He seems like that Prison Warden guy.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: Zahid]
    #1949335 - 09/24/03 09:28 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

"i.e. no Hell no judgement no condemnation ?
A God who loves u so darn much that u cannot
even begin to comprehend...
And I mean completely unattached, unconditional love"


True biblical grace is unconditional, contrary to the false gospels that have taken over today. Grace is not hinged on any condition that a person could perform. The notion that an "act of faith" is the ground of obtaining divine favor turns grace into a reward for a work. It turns grace into a "milder law" that can be satified with less stringent demands. Christ ALONE fully satisfied the law (in obediance and suffering of wrath) on behalf of His elect, chosen, predetermined people (not all people who ever lived), objects of divine love who only deserve wrath, as a demonstration of love to them. This is true love, that flows entirely apart from any forseen acts of goodness, faith, repentance, ect. True faith understands this grace. True faith is a gift of revealed truth. True faith only observes, it does not merit. Any who would bring a "grace" cloaked in performance of human conditions does not understand the gospel and brings an idol god who can not save.


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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: lucid]
    #1949407 - 09/24/03 09:47 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

If God loved human kind, the world would be a very different place.
There would have been no Hitler. The word genocide would not exist. The Arab/Isreali conflict would have never happened. Aids, Ebola, Malaria...would these exist if god loved us?
People often try to tell me these things happen because God granted us free will. Well thats all good and dandy sure, but isn't God supposed to be all powerful? All god had to do was simply make Hitler get cancer, and millions of lives would have been saved....that would not go against the belief of free will, but he chose not to do that. Why is it that God NEVER interferes at ALL? Why is it that prayers are never answered? Why is it that innocent, good hearted, Christians die to accidents and disease on a regular basis? If God is so mighty, why does he not show his might? Why would God let the Aztecs sacrifice humans to him everyday to keep the sun moving if he really loved humans? Why would he let all the outlandish religions that were practiced in history ever occur? Why would he wait until Jesus/Moses to tell man what he wanted from them when man was around long before? Because God never has, and never will interfere with human kind. Please, prove to me differently. If God exists, he does not love us at all. If anything, he hates us....or perhaps he just dosn't care either way.


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #1949487 - 09/24/03 10:13 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

ChiefThunderbong said:
If God loved human kind, the world would be a very different place.
There would have been no Hitler. The word genocide would not exist. The Arab/Isreali conflict would have never happened. Aids, Ebola, Malaria...would these exist if god loved us?
People often try to tell me these things happen because God granted us free will. Well thats all good and dandy sure, but isn't God supposed to be all powerful? All god had to do was simply make Hitler get cancer, and millions of lives would have been saved....that would not go against the belief of free will, but he chose not to do that. Why is it that God NEVER interferes at ALL? Why is it that prayers are never answered? Why is it that innocent, good hearted, Christians die to accidents and disease on a regular basis? If God is so mighty, why does he not show his might? Why would God let the Aztecs sacrifice humans to him everyday to keep the sun moving if he really loved humans? Why would he let all the outlandish religions that were practiced in history ever occur? Why would he wait until Jesus/Moses to tell man what he wanted from them when man was around long before? Because God never has, and never will interfere with human kind. Please, prove to me differently. If God exists, he does not love us at all. If anything, he hates us....or perhaps he just dosn't care either way.




When sin entered the world from the action of Adam and Eve, everything was introduced. Hitler was allowed to be, because of sin. God is all powerful, but he allows some things to happen. I can't explain this as well as I hoped, so may I submit a website?

www.godandscience.com or .org, I forgot.

Anyway, this is a great site that may be able to answer your questions much better that I can. I hope to can find the answers you want. God bless.


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #1949498 - 09/24/03 10:17 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

ChiefThunderbong said:
If God loved human kind, the world would be a very different place.
There would have been no Hitler. The word genocide would not exist. The Arab/Isreali conflict would have never happened. Aids, Ebola, Malaria...would these exist if god loved us?
People often try to tell me these things happen because God granted us free will. Well thats all good and dandy sure, but isn't God supposed to be all powerful? All god had to do was simply make Hitler get cancer, and millions of lives would have been saved....that would not go against the belief of free will, but he chose not to do that. Why is it that God NEVER interferes at ALL? Why is it that prayers are never answered? Why is it that innocent, good hearted, Christians die to accidents and disease on a regular basis? If God is so mighty, why does he not show his might? Why would God let the Aztecs sacrifice humans to him everyday to keep the sun moving if he really loved humans? Why would he let all the outlandish religions that were practiced in history ever occur? Why would he wait until Jesus/Moses to tell man what he wanted from them when man was around long before? Because God never has, and never will interfere with human kind. Please, prove to me differently. If God exists, he does not love us at all. If anything, he hates us....or perhaps he just dosn't care either way. 




I wish I could answer your question in a way that you would accept, but the most I can do is give you this website.
www.godandscience.com or .org.  I forgot.
Good luck on your quest to find the truth.  God bless. :heart:


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: Funguy]
    #1949502 - 09/24/03 10:19 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

When Adam and Eve introduced sin? What about the centuries of humankind before the invention of christianity and the story of adam and eve? *edit* I'm looking at that website....and I'm sorry but it in no way show's me that God is watching and that he cares. It shows me that God created the universe and mankind, and that we should marvel at his glory because the world is built so amazingly.*edit*
*doubleedit*
Quote:

God is all powerful, but he allows some things to happen.


Thats not true, he allows EVERYTHING to happen. He has not interfered with human kind since he created us. As I said, please give me an example of otherwise....I'd love to believe, I really wonder how the universe came into existence, but God does not seem like a plausible answer. You would think an all powerful being would do SOMETHING.*doubleedit*


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Edited by ChiefThunderbong (09/24/03 10:30 PM)


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OfflineEvilGir
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: Funguy]
    #1949513 - 09/24/03 10:23 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Well If god did exist

Hey god why treat the humans on earth as scum

Earth ! which way is that



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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: EvilGir]
    #1949527 - 09/24/03 10:28 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Actually, Christianity did not "make up" Adam and Eve. It is also in Jewish religion, which is much older than Christianity.


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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: Funguy]
    #1949550 - 09/24/03 10:35 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

I realize that, when I said christianity I ment the juedo-christian (sp?) beliefs. I believe Muslim's are based off the same religion as well (correct me if I'm wrong). But regardless, science makes it pretty clear that human beings did not come from two people....you do agree that somewhere along the line the story was "written" (guess made up was a bit harsh), but obviously there was a long period before the bible was created that man existed and practiced all sorts of crazy religions. Or do you disagree with the fossil record?


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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #1949729 - 09/24/03 11:27 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Man, how come whenever I join a conversation about God or abortion the conversation ends?


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OfflineEvilGir
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #1949737 - 09/24/03 11:31 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

I wonder why :wink:


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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: EvilGir]
    #1949753 - 09/24/03 11:35 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Me too....I mean how come everyone else can express their opinions and have intelligent conversation but as soon as I talk everyone runs away?


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #1950086 - 09/25/03 02:06 AM (18 years, 25 days ago)

i think that the christian version of god is a narrow view. in the bible, god has given man free-will, but god knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen, including what choices we will make. therefore freewill doesnt exist and god knows when a spirit is sent to earth to take on the physical form, whether or not it is doomed from the start. whether the choices that person will make will send him or her to hell. why would god do that.... maybe heaven is experiencing an over crowding problem.... :wink:


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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: lucid]
    #1950195 - 09/25/03 02:56 AM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Why is it that so many people can believe in an unflawed supernatural being that created flawed beings to amuse himself and also think that this is a good thing? And not only does he set rules to this game that oppose the natural behavior of the beings that he created, but he offers eternal suffering as the alternative to playing his twisted game.

I've got a solution to your question "Do you believe in an unconditional loving god?". NO. Even if I believed in god I would have to follow the holy book and play by the rules for god to love me. And believe it or not most people today don't even come close to following what the bible actually, litterally says. And oh yes it does say that no words shall be changed in the good book lest that person be damned along with the people that follow the changes.

What's really funny is that nobody really has much of a clue as to what any of our religions really are all about. Most people would say love, I would say control.


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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: Ekstaza]
    #1950221 - 09/25/03 03:10 AM (18 years, 25 days ago)

With an all loving God, as I was taught to know. God can be nothing more than love.


--------------------
"But then again the 'divinely approved', because it gets approved by the gods, is divinely approved by this very act of approval: it is not the case that it gets approved because it's divinely approved."  -Socrates


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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #1950336 - 09/25/03 05:05 AM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

ChiefThunderbong said:
People often try to tell me these things happen because God granted us free will. Well thats all good and dandy sure, but isn't God supposed to be all powerful? All god had to do was simply make Hitler get cancer, and millions of lives would have been saved....that would not go against the belief of free will, but he chose not to do that. Why is it that God NEVER interferes at ALL?




Hmm... God interacting in any way directly violates free will. Giving Hitler cancer interferes with the natural development of his body and the disease itself, thereby changing what was going to happen.

The idea of God as some being sitting somewhere above his creation doesn't satisfy me. It just doesn't fall into the idea of infinity, of every cell being composed of infinite universes and our universe simply composing something even grander as if it is but one cell. God IS the Creation.

Everything is energy, and that energy is God... No matter how much we subdivide the energy so that it can experience itself, once you remove the distortion that makes the paradox, that hides the Truth, you see exactly what it is..

But hey. Maybe the "God" in the Bible is just an alien? Chariots of fire... all this talk about heaven, but no talk about "skies", perhaps heaven means sky? The fact that the god referred to in the Bible is an alien would satisfy me, because then Christianity would make sense, and I would still have my belief towards the true nature of God and the universe...
Peace.





--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1950362 - 09/25/03 05:33 AM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:

But hey. Maybe the "God" in the Bible is just an alien? Chariots of fire... all this talk about heaven, but no talk about "skies", perhaps heaven means sky? The fact that the god referred to in the Bible is an alien would satisfy me, because then Christianity would make sense, and I would still have my belief towards the true nature of God and the universe...
Peace. 




you know... in the first translations of the bible the word angel was a mistake. the greek (paul lived in greece) word was actually "messenger", so instead of angel from heaven, it was messenger from the sky... :wink: 


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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: automan]
    #1950371 - 09/25/03 05:46 AM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

automan said:
you know... in the first translations of the bible the word angel was a mistake. the greek (paul lived in greece) word was actually "messenger", so instead of angel from heaven, it was messenger from the sky... :wink:   




Exactly. Then there are all the chariots of fire flying around, the flying around on clouds.. Moses descending and Jesus transforming and shit like that..

Aliens. Most indubiantly.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #1950490 - 09/25/03 08:27 AM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

ChiefThunderbong said:
Me too....I mean how come everyone else can express their opinions and have intelligent conversation but as soon as I talk everyone runs away?




I didn't run away. I had to go to class and then I had to go home. The only chance I have to be on here is between classes. Anywho, Moses was the one who wrote the first five books of the Bible. So between Creation and when Moses wrote the book of Genesis (with God's inspiration) and number of thousands of years could have gone by. This allows for the spread of beliefs and whatnot. There are many questions I have about the Bible as well. For example:
1. Where did Cain get his wife from?
2. Were the "Sons of God" angels, aliens, or what (Gen. 6:1)
3. Are angels really aliens?
4. What did Jesus actually look like?
5. The list goes on....

No I cannot answer every question thrown at me, but I can recommend books, articles, etc. There is no true way to prove whether or not God actually exists, it is just something we take on faith. Even then, scientist still have to have faith in the theory of evolution. It is still just a theory, it hasn't been proven yet either. Yea, I can believe that a single cell could eventually evolve into a human, that is believable. But I find it hard to believe that all of the molecules could come together (by chance) and form that single cell. It takes as much faith to believe in the big bang than it does God.


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: Ekstaza]
    #1950502 - 09/25/03 08:41 AM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Ekstaza said:
Why is it that so many people can believe in an unflawed supernatural being that created flawed beings to amuse himself and also think that this is a good thing? And not only does he set rules to this game that oppose the natural behavior of the beings that he created, but he offers eternal suffering as the alternative to playing his twisted game.




Viewing this existence as a game is a matter of perspective. That is not the only way (nor is it the most logical way IMO) To see things.

Quote:

What's really funny is that nobody really has much of a clue as to what any of our religions really are all about. Most people would say love, I would say control.




Man made institutions are definitely about control.


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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1950552 - 09/25/03 09:40 AM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Enter said:
Eternal torture is not what I was writing about, but nevertheless, here I go on the subject of hell...





Yes, I think you did allude to "eternal torture" in your post.

That statement you made about people facing the wrath of God.

Quote:

Think of it more accurately. It's not so much torture for a hateful human as it is the freedom of seperation for the loving human from the hateful human. Any type of "hell" serves this purpose. It is a seperate place for hateful beings to spend they're time (I realize I'm adding a dash of sarcasm here but my intentions are GOOD).




That is torture you are reffering to. Torture as a form of punishment. Which is pure insanity, IMO.

Could not God erradicate such souls from eternity? You suggest that God allows such souls to continue existing in eternal suffering. Your God is insane. Sorry if this offends.

No ,not really, because your statement offends me.

You perpetuate fear as a means of mind control.The funny thing is, I used to be just like you.When I was like ,13.





--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Edited by sirreal (09/25/03 09:41 AM)


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: sirreal]
    #1950613 - 09/25/03 10:31 AM (18 years, 25 days ago)

I like the way u think Sirreal :smile:
I take no offense to Enters reply tho, it's his opinion
and one that I elicited and he was thoughtful enough to
express it. I have no way to ascertain either my opinion
or Enters with complete assurance, so I can only go on
logic and what makes sense to my mind. So far no one
has said anything to me (even off the Shroomery) that would
resolve the seemingly contradictory idea of a loving God
who condemns, gives people the ability to do wrong and then
banishes them to eternal torment...
but who knows, maybe that's just the way it is and all else
is just wishful thinking on my part...
I'll probably never know...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinesirreal
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Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: lucid]
    #1950622 - 09/25/03 10:39 AM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

lucid said:
I like the way u think Sirreal :smile:




:cool:


Quote:

I take no offense to Enters reply tho, it's his opinion




Not really. It's a very old opinion.


Quote:

and one that I elicited and he was thoughtful enough to
express it.





People who believe in hell are always quick to express thier opinion. I don't think it is very thoughtful.


Quote:

So far no one
has said anything to me (even off the Shroomery) that would
resolve the seemingly contradictory idea of a loving God
who condemns, gives people the ability to do wrong and then
banishes them to eternal torment...
but who knows, maybe that's just the way it is and all else
is just wishful thinking on my part...
I'll probably never know... 





If a God like that does exist( :lol:), fuck him! 


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: sirreal]
    #1950629 - 09/25/03 10:44 AM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

sirreal said:
If a God like that does exist( :lol:), fuck him! 



"Fuck redemption, Fuck damnation ! we are Gods
unwanted children...so be it ! we don't need him" -Tyler Derden, Fight Club :tongue: 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: lucid]
    #1950638 - 09/25/03 10:51 AM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

lucid said:
Quote:

sirreal said:
If a God like that does exist( :lol:), fuck him! 



"Fuck redemption, Fuck damnation ! we are Gods
unwanted children...so be it ! we don't need him" -Tyler Derden, Fight Club :tongue: 




I feel so unwanted. :frown:..... :razz:


BTW,I love that movie.Very entertaining! :smile: 


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Edited by sirreal (09/25/03 10:52 AM)


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: sirreal]
    #1950764 - 09/25/03 12:09 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

I do love debates, but not such offensive language.
Would a loving father allow his son to do what he wants, no matter what it was? Would a loving father punish his son for doing something wrong, yet still love him? God gives us thousands upon thousands of chances to believe in him and Christ. Jesus himself said that to see and believe is good, to not see and still believe is even better (something along that line).
Can you forgive someone if they never ask forgiveness? We don't have to do any special ritual, dance, or anything like that for forgiveness. Just believe. To me, a loving God gave us a very easy way into Heaven.
1. He created us in his image for friendship. He gave us freewill.
2. We sinned against him.
3. He still loved us despite our actions, so he sent his son to die in our place.
Would you let your child take the place of a serial killer on the electric chair?


--------------------

OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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Offlinesirreal
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Registered: 01/11/03
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: Funguy]
    #1950768 - 09/25/03 12:14 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Funguy said:
I do love debates, but not such offensive language.




Maybe you should hang out in a christian forum.


Quote:

Would a loving father allow his son to do what he wants, no matter what it was? Would a loving father punish his son for doing something wrong, yet still love him? God gives us thousands upon thousands of chances to believe in him and Christ. Jesus himself said that to see and believe is good, to not see and still believe is even better (something along that line).
Can you forgive someone if they never ask forgiveness? We don't have to do any special ritual, dance, or anything like that for forgiveness. Just believe. To me, a loving God gave us a very easy way into Heaven.
1. He created us in his image for friendship. He gave us freewill.
2. We sinned against him.
3. He still loved us despite our actions, so he sent his son to die in our place.
Would you let your child take the place of a serial killer on the electric chair?





Punishment is one thing. Eternal torture is another.

I do like what Jesus said-"some will be beaten with few stripes, some with many".



--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Edited by sirreal (09/25/03 12:16 PM)


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: sirreal]
    #1950792 - 09/25/03 12:28 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

> Would you let your child take the place of a serial killer on the electric chair?

If it would end killing, I would sit on the chair myself and pull the switch.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: sirreal]
    #1950796 - 09/25/03 12:30 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

I do not think that God exists in mans image. Hell, judgement, condemnation, love... these are manmade concepts.




anything you try to convay is a man made image - the language you're using to convey your emotions towards the question are man made images, responding to a man made image. You can believe what you want to believe, based off of your past experience, and come up with your own ideas, and people can influence these ideas in whichever way they do, but in the end - it's all a man made image. The unknown is nothing more than the unknown. The concept in it self is somewhat hard to grasp. When someone tries to conceive of something completely unfamiliar, guesses, uneducated, are all that can come of the conclusions.


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Posts: 27,301
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1950809 - 09/25/03 12:38 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

automan said:
you know... in the first translations of the bible the word angel was a mistake. the greek (paul lived in greece) word was actually "messenger", so instead of angel from heaven, it was messenger from the sky... :wink:   




Exactly. Then there are all the chariots of fire flying around, the flying around on clouds.. Moses descending and Jesus transforming and shit like that..

Aliens. Most indubiantly.
Peace. 



"Chariots of the Gods" debunked 


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: Seuss]
    #1951118 - 09/25/03 02:53 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Would you let your child take the place of a serial killer on the electric chair?

If it would end killing, I would sit on the chair myself and pull the switch. 



Amen to that :smile:
same here, I would give my life, heck I'd even live :tongue: ! (and
do) to help others... 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: lucid]
    #1951207 - 09/25/03 03:32 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

> anything you try to convay is a man made image

For the most part, I agree with you. What I was getting at is that most people view "God" in terms that they can relate with, which are "man made ideals" resulting in a God created in man's image. Believe what you want, but in my experience, this is not the case.

> The unknown is nothing more than the unknown.

I eat when I am hungry.
I sleep when I am tired.
What else is there?


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: Seuss]
    #1951355 - 09/25/03 04:32 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:

I eat when I am hungry.
I sleep when I am tired.
What else is there? 



Work :frown: 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: Funguy]
    #1951449 - 09/25/03 05:00 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Funguy said:
Would a loving father allow his son to do what he wants, no matter what it was? Would a loving father punish his son for doing something wrong, yet still love him?




Reminds me of that parable, can't think of its name, where the one kid goes off to the city and such.. heh.

It also reminds me of the movie Blow. How his father loved him so deeply but allowed him to make his own choices.

Quote:


God gives us thousands upon thousands of chances to believe in him and Christ.




He gives us chances? What chances are these? How do we tell when we are faced with one of these chances?

Quote:


Jesus himself said that to see and believe is good, to not see and still believe is even better (something along that line).




Jesus himself? Can we trust words that have been translated and altered over the course of thousands of years as the undeniable and true words of Jesus? If someone editing an edition of the Bible slipped in a couple of words to benefit him and his cause (maybe, getting people to believe in something without questioning), how would we, the "sheep", know?

I don't know what is on the other side of that star up there in space... is it okay to make an assumption of what is there and believe in it without question with nothing to actually give us any reason to believe in it?

Quote:


Can you forgive someone if they never ask forgiveness?





Can you tax someone if they never ask to be taxed?

Quote:


1. He created us in his image for friendship. He gave us freewill.
2. We sinned against him.
3. He still loved us despite our actions, so he sent his son to die in our place.




Hm.. he gave us free will.. the ability to choose to have any thought or to do any action that we wish when faced with any situation or choice.

So, He gave us this choice, this complete freedom of choice.. but we can be Eternally punished for certain choices we make? --Error-- --Error-- ---Does Not Compute---

How did we sin agansit God? How do we even know his will to know if we sinned agansit him? Because someone told us it is that way?

Quote:


Would you let your child take the place of a serial killer on the electric chair?




Well, I would of course raise my child to be able to be open to every experience, to question his beliefs, and to have the right mind to be able to decide his thoughts and actions for himself, for him to be able to use his free will to whatever end he wishes..

If he decided to sit in the electric chair in the place of a serial killer, and my child was old enough to legally make his decisions for himself, or I myself had reason to believe that he fully understood what was happenign and why he chose his actions and so forth.. it wouldn't be my decision to make.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlineska8ball
anaxagoras
Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 36
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
Re: Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1951847 - 09/25/03 07:08 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Allright - what im about to say is only a representation of what i understand about what i cannot... I hope you guys r familliar with the concept of the lifestream - when i speak about the alloted space god has given to us in the lifestream i speak of that space where you hear the sound of ur voice when u think ect. this space cannot be tasted,felt,seen,heard, or sensed in any way so it does not exist in the physical world. MY outlook on hell can be explained in this passage from an old conversation wiht a freind.....

when we die we go into this stream- this is the spirit world - god is a type of energy unique to the others that is the underlying connection between them - almost like bonds between atoms - he is supremely simple making him the basis of all that is complex -we are always part of this stream but when we die our energy takes a new free form that can flow along with god and life- not just the alloted spcae given by god. If we have lived a life that is disconected from the spirit (a sinfull life whatever sin is is another questioN!) our soul is not free to flow but tries to flow against it - causing friction - making the pain which is hell. But if we live spirtually fulfilled lives our energy will flow with the stream and will be able to feel pure essence without corruption - there will be utter peace and no physical world - emotiosn will get to a point of complexity that is ffar far far beyond what we understand about the physical world or even about our own emotions


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