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InvisibleSwami
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Posts: 15,413
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #870576 - 09/08/02 10:42 PM (19 years, 24 days ago)

I am special swami and so are you and everyone else.
Everyone by definition cannot be special. Semantics aside, you have had prayers answered, I knowlingly have not. Therefore:

A. God likes you better.
B. You have a better methodolgy.
C. I wouldn't know an answered prayer if it fell on my lap.
D. Prayer is useless superstition.

As I have no way of determining A-C unless someone can point it out to me; I must go with D.

hey and with the purist intentions you just never know. whenever i come from the purist intentions good things have always come out of the situation ...
How do you know the Pakistani ritual is not done with the purist of intentions?




--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (09/08/02 11:32 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: chemkid]
    #870584 - 09/08/02 10:47 PM (19 years, 24 days ago)

For the record....(according to my belief....christianity)....all prayers are answered. It just might not be the answer you were hoping for.

Nothing personal chem, but that line just makes me want to puke. When my girlfriend (a devout Christian) prayed everyday for her daughter's mental health for years, spent every dollar, cried every tear, bled every drop and her daughter died anyway, disrupted way too many lives - I guess you would have to say that might not be the answer hoped for.

So what was the point in praying?

A difference that makes no difference is no difference!


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Swami]
    #870623 - 09/08/02 11:20 PM (19 years, 24 days ago)

You make me laugh and sigh that is why you are one of my favorite members here among so many good ones.

If I weren't so caught up in a psychosexual drama right now I would reply with substance.

Ok ok, please be Swami for a little while until I regain my balance.

After that I'll take over again. Slacker.


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Offlinechemkid
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Registered: 06/21/02
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Swami]
    #870859 - 09/09/02 01:27 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

Swami, I have read many of your posts and take you to be an intelligent person, that being said, surely you see that this statement of yours is ridiculous. You are saying that it made no difference. How in the world could you even begin to know it made no difference. Maybe the prayer made her stronger and better able to handle the situation. Maybe her death has forever changed someone that will be a world leader someday. (There are infinite examples like these) You can't know the nature of God and therefore his reasoning for allowing her little girls death (sorry by the way). Through death has come many a splendid thing. You mention disrupted lives....is that always to the detriment of those disrupted????Of course not. This is what forces growth and a better understanding of ourselves and others.

For the sake of this argument, let's assume for a minute that God exists (you with me)....O.K. if he does exist then death of the human body, while rough on us left behind, is simply a transition to another existence that is far better and far beyond our comprehension. So looking at it like that, our meager human existence is nothing to relish and hold onto.

Now let's get back to reality.....GOD has neither been proven or disproven. I am still waiting for you to reply to my question Swami.......as a man of evidence and science (at least that's how I pin you down from your posts), surely you can see that your closed mindedness toward the existence of something that has not been disproven shows your lack of objectivity. So.......do you not agree that you would be better suited to at least be agnostic until one side or the other was proven? It makes for better science.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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InvisibleSwami
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Posts: 15,413
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: chemkid]
    #870939 - 09/09/02 02:07 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

...surely you see that this statement of yours is ridiculous.
Nice start to a conversation.

How in the world could you even begin to know it made no difference.
I am intuiting that that is a question. You actually have it backwards. With zero feedback from God, how can I possibly know that prayer works? It obviously did not work from the point of view of those praying, irregardless of God's plan.

For the sake of this argument, let's assume for a minute that God exists (you with me)...
No, I am a total retard. Please explain "assumtpion".

O.K. if he does exist then death of the human body, while rough on us left behind, is simply a transition to another existence that is far better and far beyond our comprehension. So looking at it like that, our meager human existence is nothing to relish and hold onto.
This has nothing to do with the efficacy of prayer. No tangents please.

I am still waiting for you to reply to my question Swami.......as a man of evidence and science (at least that's how I pin you down from your posts), surely you can see that your closed mindedness toward the existence of something that has not been disproven shows your lack of objectivity.
It seems you know little of logic and objectivity. (Prove that I can't levitate when no one is looking.) This is pure silliness and has nothing to do with close-mindedness. I am willing to examine ALL facts critically. That is an open-mind. However, there are no facts to examine.

So.......do you not agree that you would be better suited to at least be agnostic until one side or the other was proven? It makes for better science.
I really call myself neither agnostic nor atheist, those are just convenient catagorical labels. Science does not consider anything for which there are no facts nor evidence.




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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Swami]
    #871022 - 09/09/02 02:46 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

Wow Swami, anger doesn't become you. I can't believe this stupid post has upset you so. But since you want to make little sarcastic witticisms then let me be the first to tell you that there is no such word as irregardless....regardless is sufficient. As I said in a previos post "I like your methods of debate" , well if this the new methodology of your debating then I must retract my statement.

I wasn't saying "are you with me" as in can you comprehend this, rather that you probably don't like to assume God exists simply for the sake of debate, so I was urging you to indulge me for a few minutes.

In reply to:

It seems you know little of logic and objectivity




Why, because I don't hold the same view as you? You think it be illogical to believe in a higher power? That is fine but you shouldn't be so judgemental. The fact that I believe says nothing about my faculties for debate, logic, or objectivity.

In reply to:

I am willing to examine ALL facts critically. That is an open-mind. However, there are no facts to examine.





If there are no facts to examine then what are all these accounts from people claiming to know there is a God? I am not saying it is a fact that there is a God but it is a fact that they are claiming it to be so.....therefore it should be examined. You negate this though. Human, subjective claims are just as worthy for investigation as any other source of information. When you get right to it......all science is based on human claims at one point. The laws of thermodynamics weren't always laws....at one point someone made a claim that there is something interesting going on here and after many observations that withstood the test of time...they became laws.

In reply to:

Science does not consider anything for which there are no facts nor evidence




That is a gross untruth. If science never considered anything that wasn't a fact how would novel discoveries or approaches to science be discovered.

People before Galileo "knew" that the earth was the center of the universe. Galileo considered something outside these "known" facts and dispelled these myths. Science prides itself on stepping outside the box and considering the unconsidered. As a scientist myself, if I never considered anything other than that which was already proven......then a scientist I am not!!!

As for not calling yourself an atheist or agnostic.....Touche.....point taken. We shouldn't put ourselves in a box like that. That destroys the objectivity I claim to want to uphold. I will cease to try to label you....fair enough???


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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Onlinewrestler_az
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Swami]
    #871064 - 09/09/02 03:30 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

ok, i havent read all the posts in this thread, so if im just repeating something already said, sorry.....some of these posts are too long for my drug induced lazy eyes :grin:


anyway, i just had a thought id like to add to this whole debate on prayer going on. now weather it works or not, im not sure and that isnt the point im addressing.

as someone said earlier in the thread, all prayers are answered, just some get a no for an answer. i disagree with that, and feel that according to the christian religion, some prayers are ignored by the christian god.....k, ill explain:

so god supposedly gave us free will right? that is, we can do as we please, worship him, or some other diety, or perhaps no one at all......so i find it hard to believe that christians worshiping this god that gave us this free will, will have the nerve to ask him for a new car..... that i believe would fall under the free will part(go get a job and buy it) this goes the same to all the people who cry "why could god LET this happen?" i dont think it is his place to keep things from happening, or ALLOWING others to. that is again, our area.... we make things happen, and allow others, as per our free will to do as we please, kinda like gods little loop hole.....so when someone prays to him....help me get better, his responce is(should have prevented yourself from getting sick) and when someone prays, i need a new car, his responce is get a new job, get my point? why do we as a whole lean so heavilly on god? he made it possible for you to help yourself, so do it. stop trying to take the easy way out.....anyway, thats my two cents :grin: 


--------------------
how's your WOW?





  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: chemkid]
    #871147 - 09/09/02 04:44 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

Wow Swami, anger doesn't become you.
Jesus used anger when appropriate.

But since you want to make little sarcastic witticisms then let me be the first to tell you that there is no such word as irregardless
Thank you for educating me.

from dictionary.com

ir?re?gard?less Pronunciation Key (r-g?rdls)
adv. Nonstandard
Regardless.

In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems you know little of logic and objectivity
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why, because I don't hold the same view as you? You think it be illogical to believe in a higher power? That is fine but you shouldn't be so judgemental. The fact that I believe says nothing about my faculties for debate, logic, or objectivity.

Nice rant, but nothing judgemental nor a statement about your beliefs. A negative cannot be proven as you ascertain - this is a basic fact of debate and logic. Do some research.

If there are no facts to examine then what are all these accounts from people claiming to know there is a God? I am not saying it is a fact that there is a God but it is a fact that they are claiming it to be so.....therefore it should be examined.
How do I examine what is going on in someone's head? From the 911 bombers directed by God to the Catholics and Protestant Irish that kill each other to the Son of Sam that was told by God to kill people. Please explain how this is evidence of anything except delusion?

Human, subjective claims are just as worthy for investigation as any other source of information.
They are worthy as a starting point when more research can be done. I have attempted more research than any other member on this board, but all claims fell flat.

The laws of thermodynamics weren't always laws....at one point someone made a claim that there is something interesting going on here and after many observations that withstood the test of time...they became laws.
So my two years of research with praying for my girlfriend's daughter did not count? This is real-world lab testing. What type of research do you suggest?

That is a gross untruth. If science never considered anything that wasn't a fact how would novel discoveries or approaches to science be discovered.
Small facts are gathered and a larger hypothesis is suggested based upon them, then rigidly tested.

People before Galileo "knew" that the earth was the center of the universe.
JUst like you know that prayer is a valid ritual.

Galileo considered something outside these "known" facts and dispelled these myths.
Yes, he started with smaller facts as I stated above. It is detective work, start with the pieces then try to make a coherent picture.

Science prides itself on stepping outside the box and considering the unconsidered. As a scientist myself, if I never considered anything other than that which was already proven......then a scientist I am not!!!
FYI - more than one exclamation point is considered grammatically incorrect. What this has to do with ritual and prayer is beyond me. What exactly is there to consider? I do not believe you to be a scientist as you stated that a negative can be proven, which is a falsehood.



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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Posts: 15,413
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: wrestler_az]
    #871151 - 09/09/02 04:48 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

...stop trying to take the easy way out...

Thank you for your enlightening and compassionate remarks. Spending every last dollar, every free moment while being drained emotionally and praying to stop a loved one from self-destructing is certainly "taking the easy way out".


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Onlinewrestler_az
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Swami]
    #871163 - 09/09/02 05:04 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

my remark was not to be take litterally by you, but by the person who wanted a new car..... i guess you missed my point, my point was that even god is not ALL powerfull, and its not necessarilly that he wont answer all prayers(even though as i already said in some instances this might be the case) but simply he CANT. if he could forcefully cure your loved one of the ilness aquired, then why didnt he stop the terroists from crashing into our towers, killing thousands? and while hes at it, why not just keep every war from starting, every disease from killing, and every bad and hatefull thought from ever manifesting? do you kinda get my point yet? i think it is not gods place to "save" our lives here on this earth, i dont think he can.....even he has to abide by the rules nature set out.....its just not possible to go and keep everything bad from happening and i dont see the point in wasting our time praying about it....


--------------------
how's your WOW?





  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


Edited by wrestler_az (09/09/02 05:10 AM)


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Onlinewrestler_az
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Swami]
    #871172 - 09/09/02 05:24 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

and another thing, my origonal point was meat to the person who leans on god to take care of them and not do a damn thing for themselves. spending every last dollar, while being drained emotionally doesnt sound like taking the easy way out.... your right, but if you were to only pray, and not do anything to compliment this, then hold god accountable fo rthis persons death, then i would say to you, stop trying to take the easy way out.......its just there are so many of those "why would god ALLOW a thing like this" i think they got it all wrong......


--------------------
how's your WOW?





  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Swami]
    #871231 - 09/09/02 07:41 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

Because YOU say that prayer doesn't work, means that prayer isn't operating in YOUR life. All the categorical forms of prayer have operated in my life for decades - some results were so specific to my petition, that it became practically impossible to doubt the Intervention. The only question that yet remains for me is philosophical with regard to how the Divine Will operates. For example: 1) Did I precognitively ascertain what the future was to be, and construe the predestined reality to be my desire? No, the desire was based upon years of interest before a petition was made. 2) Did I make a request to God, and He simply arranged the local universe for ME? No. God is not my errand boy. 3) Was there an acausal (synchronistic) relationship between my subjective wish and objective reality? Yes, but this only results in amazement, not understanding. There are other possibilities, but I'll not bore you.

Now, I am referring here, howsoever vaguely, to one powerful experience that I had with regard to petitionary prayer. I'd share the details, but only through a PM. Prayers of Thanksgiving are for me, wonderful, even ecstatic spontaneous moments wherein all is well in the world. No fear. No anxiety. Blessed sense of well-being that extends to all from my Heart.

I have made intecessory prayers for my Father, undergoing surgery, as well as for others. Of course the positive outcome cannot be proven empirically, yet when one Believes in God, and Knows God in the sense of intuitive, faith-based, or experiential Knowledge (Gnosis), one is rooted in That Reality and prayer occurs spontaneously. One is way past thinking about prayer as an idea or a possibility- one communicates through the medium of Spirit, which is Consciousness itself. Like the Biblical symbol of the fish - IXTHYOS - 'In God we live and move and have our being.' Water=Spirit=Consciousness symbolism.

Of course Contemplative Prayer, called Meditation in the East, has been part of me before I considered myself to be Christian at all. As my Religious Experience of Life changed, so did the coloration of my contemplations, as did the nature of my Trances (samadhis, jhanas).

Putting your toe into the 'Stream' is not going to show you how this world-view operates. One must 'immerse' oneself in the world-view, take the plunge, make the experiment. It is the true Baptism, not just the outer form of it. Peace.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ]
    #871244 - 09/09/02 07:52 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

Be advised that the practice of Sati - self-immolation of wives on their husband's funeral pyres (other article on same page) is a voluntary act of devotion. I for one am appalled by it, but it is similar to Buddhist monks who burned themselves in demonstration during the Vietnam War.

The ritual here disclosed may not be more than political propaganda of Muslims against Hindus (look at the other article about Hindus burning Muslims); or, it may be more demonic Hindu practices like the burning of girls who cannot be married off (the technical name escapes me.) This is a Pakistani, Muslim paper. Hatred for Hindus abounds. These atrocities, if they occurred, should not be generalized to an entire culture. Remember, Hinduism is not a single religion - there are hundreds of sects and thousands of practices, not all dedicated to a loving and benevolent God. Shoot...watch the film 'India Jones and the Temple of Doom' to get even a fictional account of the Kali worshippers and Thugees (whence our word 'thug').


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Anonymous

Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #871284 - 09/09/02 09:02 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

Well done, not that you need an affirmation from me.  This is in response to your response to Swami.  I won't know what answer he will give you but by his testimony he did immerse himself in it when he was involved with the little girl's life or at least he witnessed someone who did.  All for naught.  I have no ready answers for experiences like that, or at least ones I would publicly declare.

As far as the newspaper is concerned your comments are noted.  Yet that does not dissuade me from categorizing Eastern Mysticism of all stripes as just a bunch of hooey.  I sometimes paint so broadly that I use a roller instead of a broad brush! :grin:

I have a little experience in this.  I was once a Mystic.

Cheers for reason and raw naked skepticism, 


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OfflineFliquid
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Swami]
    #871292 - 09/09/02 09:09 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

You are right, and i agree.

There is no god, and praying is only a state generated to make the pain go away.
Its like the frase 'think of something nice' says the nurse as the docter starts resetting your leg..  :grin: 


--------------------
:dancing: My latest music! :yesnod:


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Offlinelizardking
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #871302 - 09/09/02 09:21 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

markos: thanks for pointing that out. the article was in paknews.com, and pakistanis and indians do not thave the best relationship. in fact, it is customary in pakistani media(state controlled) to flame indian culture and so on. this occurence was horrible and unfortunately, things like this still happen in rural areas. it is
a primitive ritual, not having as much to do with the true seeking that is present in hinduism (ref: vedas, upanishads etc)
also, please visit this link: http://www.indian-express.com/full_story.php?content_id=8068
and see that the allegation of the children being "burnt alive" is grossly untrue. just another cooked up story by the wonderful pakistani media.

as for prayer : swami, there are things beyond what we can percieve with our senses. attachment to a prayers result and intense desire for it does not bring about the result. in fact it has the opposite effect. just wondering, have you ever tried meditation?

peace all
lk


--------------------
The future is uncertain
And the end is always near.
James Douglas Morrison.


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ]
    #871310 - 09/09/02 09:26 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

Lets not be so quick to judge, we have here in the west people that handle snakes and get crucified in the name of the lord.
Who knows maybe the ritual is a way to teach you about death, to experienced it.
It could be a very valuable teaching.
In the other hand they could be just plain crazy.


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Offlineakyouser_oner
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ]
    #871355 - 09/09/02 10:05 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

ok this may be a dumb question, but did the children die? it didn't really specify... i've heard of some instances where people are put into such a deep trance that their body slows to near death, then they are buried, dug up, and revived... pretty far out, but you never know...


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-akyouser.oner
<(((((((((((((((@~~~


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InvisibleThe_Clash_UK
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ]
    #871372 - 09/09/02 10:11 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

To the right hand side of that page you got 2 hands comming from the flags of the US and Pakistan.  How come the pakistani hand is white? eh?  but then you could say why isnt the american hand black. i dunno, anyway...back into space i go :laugh:


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Crash a cig guvnor?


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Onlinewrestler_az
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #871643 - 09/09/02 12:45 PM (19 years, 23 days ago)

whats a more possible scenario......a devine being such as the god we speak of creates man and then leaves no physical proof of its existance leaving us only to wonder whats really going on up there, or that man created god, as kind of an emotional back brace if you will, to help us try to understand why we are here, and give some meaning to our existance. and to give us something to look to for spirtiual guidance, something to pray to, so we dont feel so alone, and so that even after deatrh, which scares us all, we can continue on living......i believe that many of the worlds religions came to be by mans fear of the unknown.....it sounds alot better to say we all go to "heaven" when we die, than it is to say we just decay and rot, our bodies turning into worm food.....just a thought


--------------------
how's your WOW?





  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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