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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer?
    #1158551 - 12/20/02 06:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Deleted by admin


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1158565 - 12/20/02 06:11 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Enter, my friend, where have you been?!  Good to see you again! :smile:

What do you mean though, "Shouldn't you have an answer?"
I don't believe in God or any sort of afterlife. 
So to whom am I supposed to answer, and what is the question??

BTW... You're capitalized now... What happened?


--------------------
Namaste.


Edited by RebelSteve33 (12/20/02 06:12 PM)


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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1158570 - 12/20/02 06:13 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I am as confused as Rebel.

What are you talking about as an answer?

I'd assume that someone thinking there is no god would be thinking there is no afterlife at all (=death is like the time before you were born, nothing), unless the person believes in some afterlife without a god.


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Anonymous

Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1158585 - 12/20/02 06:19 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Well well Enter or is it enter I forget which, how are you my fine fellow featherless biped?

It's been ever so long.  You were missed in a way that you will never know.

You say, "Being what I am"?  And what is that, pray tell?

Also, "even from name-calling shroomerites, the condescending, the angry, the other side of the polar."???

My my you do have a rather long list of ad hominems to chose from don't you?

Word to the wisest oh fair Eenter.

Read the "Be Nice" policy before you go too far awry.  :smile: 


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1158600 - 12/20/02 06:25 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

All responses welcome, even from name-calling shroomerites, the condescending, the angry, the other side of the polar.

Hey man, nobody here in this forum are angry name-callers. We are more like a family.

:wink: :smirk: :grin:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Murex]
    #1158609 - 12/20/02 06:28 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

True dat, Murex!  :grin:


--------------------
Namaste.


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Anonymous

Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Murex]
    #1158630 - 12/20/02 06:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I find it interesting Murex that when we point a finger at someone three fingers are pointing back at ourselves. Isn't that remarkable?


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
    #1158660 - 12/20/02 06:45 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

...my fine fellow featherless biped
:grin: :grin: :grin: 


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1158664 - 12/20/02 06:46 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

If you don't believe in God Himself, shouldn't you have an answer you can die by?



No, it's better to have something to live for.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Evolving]
    #1158772 - 12/20/02 07:28 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Preach it my brotha!


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #1158795 - 12/20/02 07:36 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Deleted by admin


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1158847 - 12/20/02 08:00 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I wonder how swiftly some of you have come to a conclusion about this subject when it proves to be the most necessary to know about.

Who proved it to be the most necessary to know about?

When I was younger, my parents never took me to church.  I don't even remember how I first learned about God or Christianity or any sort of religion... It must have been from friends or from somewhere along the lines at school.  As I got older, I decided to learn more about this concept of "God" and what religion was all about.  At one point, I actually considered myself a Christian.  I had been "converted," you might call it.

But after learning more about Christianity and what the Bible and God were really all about, I decided it just wasn't for me.  There were too many things wrong with the teachings, besides the fact that there is no proof whatsoever of God's existence.  I am a scientist.  I like proof.  I have learned many things that disprove God's existence, but nothing that proves it.

I believe that humans are nothing but smart animals that have developed as a result of evolution.  And the problem with us is just that; we are smart!  We like to experiment with things and figure things out.  We are curious.  We like to understand everything about the world around us.  We ponder concepts and ideas like those of life and death.  And when it comes to concepts like these, which we really have no complete understanding of, we get scared.

It is my opinion that all religions and all Gods are just imaginary things created by men in order to explain the unexplainable.  They were invented by humans for the sole purpose of allaying our fears.  We don't have to fear death anymore because there is a "God" and if we believe in Him and worship Him and do what He says, then we will go to "Heaven."

You know what I have to say about that?  Cow patties! :smile:

I don't need a God or any religion.  I have myself.  I am a good person, I will live a good life, and then I will die.  And that's it!  I don't need the concept of "God" or "Heaven" to make me want to live a good life.  I am happy just living and being me.  There is nothing necessary about God to me at all.

The closest thing to a "God" that I have is Nature.  I will continue to worship her and serve her in any way I can, and I will be happy.  That's all I need.

-RebelSteve

P.S.  I hope that wasn't an "unoriginal response."

EDIT:  I am not trying to say in any way "God does not exist" or "Christians are evil" or anything like that.  If you have found God, and you are happy; I think that's great!  Good for you!

I am just saying that I am happy and perfectly fine without God in my life.


--------------------
Namaste.


Edited by RebelSteve33 (12/20/02 08:22 PM)


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Offlineupupup
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1158881 - 12/20/02 08:16 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I plan on using the answer "42".....and giving the "high-sign"....  :tongue: :grin: :tongue:


--------------------
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


Edited by upupup (12/20/02 08:19 PM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1158882 - 12/20/02 08:17 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If you don't believe in God, it seems to me that you would have asked yourselves the questions that would disprove His existence.

I was raised Catholic and went to church every day, and yet even in the hight of my faith I was unable to find any proof that god existed.

When I gave up my religion I did not really give up my belief in something higher, some creator.

Then after a while I felt the need to find proof. So I asked God if he existed. I tried praying. I told him that I wanted to believe in him, that I wanted to know he was there. So I asked him to give me some proof. Not something I could miss. Not something small that I could brush aside. I told him that if he wanted me to believe in him...he had to give me some concrete proof and he had to do it soon. My last shreads of faith were beginning to crumble.

I got nothing.

If there is a god, he obviously doesn't care enough about what I think to give me the one thing I asked, and begged, of him.

So, not very swiftly, I've come to the conclusion that for now I just don't care if there is or isn't a god. The existence of god has no impact on my life. My actions are not guided by the fear of god, they are guided by my compassion and my need to see others happy.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1158898 - 12/20/02 08:25 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

There are many Gods
Each one the true god to each individual
Some don't have one
Only one truth exists


In the words of MJK- "Fuck your God!"


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineX.O
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Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: World Spirit]
    #1158973 - 12/20/02 09:09 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------
I'm a huge idiot


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Anonymous

Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Murex]
    #1158994 - 12/20/02 09:14 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Now Murex, don't tempt Eenter. None of us want to see him get angry or sulky.

He is here to teach us the truth. And he loves each and everyone of us.

Such a good Christian is Eenter.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
    #1159008 - 12/20/02 09:18 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I was going to direct your attention to the "Be Nice" Policy, Plato, but I think I just realized why the "Be Nice" part of it is in quotes! :wink:  :laugh: 


--------------------
Namaste.


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Anonymous

Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1159017 - 12/20/02 09:22 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I am always nice Steve.  I just didn't want poor Eenter to get upset because someone said:

FUCK YOUR GOD!

Just trying to keep the peace, that's all.  :smile:


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
    #1159036 - 12/20/02 09:27 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Maynard said it, not me.  :tongue:

And it wasn't directed twoards anyone.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



Edited by Murex (12/20/02 09:29 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Murex]
    #1159047 - 12/20/02 09:33 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

It's all good Bro.  You know that and I know that.  I just didn't want anyone else to think you were slamming them.  :smile:

Like you said, "We're all family here"


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
    #1159064 - 12/20/02 09:42 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

And one big happy family it is!  :laugh:


--------------------
Namaste.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1159107 - 12/20/02 10:05 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

aaahhhhh Enter :smile:

so what's your question? can you rephrase again in a bit more detail? Stop being so vague and mysterious, it doens't work very well among such critical thinkers


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineLlamanose
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1159116 - 12/20/02 10:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"God Himself"?  As in, one god?  Everyone of us is a god.  :grin: 


--------------------
Alice came to a fork in the road.  "Which road do I take?" she asked.
"Where do you want to go?" responded the Cheshire cat.
"I don't know," Alice answered.
"Then," said the cat, "it doesn't matter."
~Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Llamanose]
    #1159127 - 12/20/02 10:16 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

kinda makes the word useless then doesn't it? we already have a word for "every one of us.." HUMANS.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offlinesoylent_green
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1159453 - 12/21/02 05:29 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

hmmmm...i don't believe in god, but i don't not believe in god either.
i don't know if god exists. i don't know if we go to hevan, evlove, get reborn.just die i dont' know.
so i choose not to bleieve in one spicif thing.
i feel if i live my life, and be a good person, and be happy. that whatever comes next will all work out.


--------------------
What fun is it in Nirvana while other beings are suffering?


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1159612 - 12/21/02 07:23 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

for some, sometimes, it's best to admit ya don't have an answer than to -pretend- ya do have the answer.

i do know it's better to deal with your anger, resentment, disappointment, exc. than to pridefully hold onto it, that you'll be a lot happier throughout life, and that your death will be much easier and more peaceful.

i know that i do not care for a miserable life or an agonizing death, and that i'm responsible for my health and happiness. i know that i don't want to die alone, that i want an undoubtable sense of having had very precious bondings with others in my community.

i know that those who have faith in the immediate reality of their own interior beauty will experience joy in spite of all the shitty things that beat people down.

i've went through a lot of experiences from atheism, agnosticism, mysticism, and magick, and have found some frighteningly inescapable universals that don't matter a damn what i've identified with.... consider it, bro. blessings, cj




--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1159709 - 12/21/02 08:43 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Ask questions that disprove his existence?

There is NO reason to believe that god exists at all, so what is there to question?

Throughout my whole life, nothing has ever suggested to me that god exists, not one moment, not one experience, not one unexplainable event. The fact that (pointing to Christianity) millions of people have been stupid enough to buy into a religion does not help to prove a god, but proves how weak minded many humans are.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: trendal]
    #1159856 - 12/21/02 10:05 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If there is a proof of God, then God does not exist, since God is faith.


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OfflineCryptic
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1159864 - 12/21/02 10:13 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I am a Non-believer.. I was Raised in a Religious Family, and Ever since day one i disliked religion.

I choose not to Worship any Deities, because doing so raises problems.. Religion has been used as an excuse for war for far to long.. and i refuse to get involved in such a mess. also i believe the Christian faith to be Soo corrupted and destroyed that it isint worth even Trying to save or follow. Child Molesting Priests, Thieves, Rapists.. They dont deserve Forgiveness but they believe that if they say they are Religious that they are forgivin.. it makes me sick to tell you the truth.

Whether there is a higher power then us, is unknown to Everyone.. there is NO proof, and you all know it, you can speak and say all you want to try and prove, but there really is nothing to prove such an existance. and nothing to prove otherwise either. so i keep a neutral stance on most religion, except the horribly Corrupted faiths


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-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-

While the Trees Grow out of your Skin, Can i plant you so a forest will grow?
"When you want it, it goes away to Fast. Times you hate it always seem to last" - Marilyn Manson


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InvisibleThe_Clash_UK
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Llamanose]
    #1159884 - 12/21/02 10:25 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I AM GOD.....god is me....god is you ....YOU ARE GOD


--------------------
Crash a cig guvnor?


Edited by The_Clash_UK (12/21/02 10:29 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
    #1159997 - 12/21/02 11:32 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, that person is silly or dumb because you can't have sex with God. That person just sounds like he's angry. I wonder who hurt his feelings when he was little. Maybe he got punished when he was in Sunday school for saying bad words. Maybe someone washed his mouth out with soap or Tabasco sauce and said that Hell was hotter, and that he was gonna go to Hell for saying bad words about God. Maybe he's trying to feel brave and grown-up by saying bad words, but he really feels little and scared inside. Um, maybe one of those big crosses with Jesus stuck on it with big metal spikes, and blood all over and spikey thorns stuck in his head really scared him once. That used to scare me too. I have to take a nap now, bye bye.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1160009 - 12/21/02 11:44 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

People don't understand the all is one god, kinda thing

Although ive never used amanita muscaria, i heard its trips usually spell out how the all is one god thing! I guess shrooms in general do that !


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #1160029 - 12/21/02 11:58 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Blind soul. Everything and anything in existence shouts with God's Presence. Intelligent design, from the sub-atomic to the cell to the organism to very cosmos. Symmetry. Existence Itself as opposed to non-existence. "Reason to believe" is a ridiculous assembly of words, but you and others of your opinion can't even see it's lack of logic. Reason is one mode of apprehension - belief or faith is another mode of apprehension. Reason operates with sense data - faith operates with transcendental data. Just because YOU can't perceive the Pure Idea along with it's physical manifestation, only means that YOU can't perceive it. Most blind men still believe in the existence of light, even though they can't perceive it. They have faith in the perceptions of those who can see light. Opinions like yours do not manifest strength of mind, they indicate a handicap far deeper than a person without eyesight - they are a blindness to the very core of human existence, and the root of lies. Careful who you call stupid because you're gonna get really embarrassed when you realize who actually turns out to be stupid, and I really wouldn't want your feelings to get hurt.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1160039 - 12/21/02 12:04 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

...you can't have sex with God.

Well. That's disappointing.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1160178 - 12/21/02 12:55 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Everything and anything in existence shouts with God's Presence.

Yes, like the sheer terror a zebra feels when the crocodile's jaws close on him, or the anguish a mother feels then she finds her baby crushed to death in the aftermath of a tornado. (Substitute your own examples.)

Fear, pain, grief and loss all scream of a Designer's loving hand? Not to me.

Now while you may say that we as humans, do not see the BIGGER PICTURE, I will have to say that I feel and recognize no love from the Universe. Is the universe complex, intricate and unfathomable? Yes. Is it personal? Not in the slightest.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1160237 - 12/21/02 01:34 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

There is no way to get a definitive answer, so I don't see any need to lie to myself.

Why should I have an answer? What do you mean by "to die by"?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Swami]
    #1160247 - 12/21/02 01:45 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"Everything and anything in existence shouts with God's Presence. "

Well of course it does, if you've managed to convince yourself that everything and anything in existance were created by god. This is a prime example of an argument based entirely on a "sense" that you get. Just because you feel something is true, does not make it so.

The reason people believe in god is because they've convinced themselves that there is a god. Pretty straight forward. It works the same for believing that there is no god. Nobody has any evidence either way. People claim that their emotions, senses, and feelings are proof, but they aren't really. People have false beliefs all the time. People have simple little chemical imbalances all the time that can convince them beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are massive government conspiracies working against tehm. You can force yourself to feel and believe anything you want, but it won't make it so.

I can't help but think that believing you know the answers to these things makes you naive and arrogant. Just the fact that others feel and believe opposing things to what you feel and believe should be ample evidence that there's a pretty damn good chance you're wrong.

I would much rather die knowing that I never figured out the answers to life's big questions, than believing that a supersticious fairy tale is the key to all existance.

What's the point in having an answer if it's probably completely wrong?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1160260 - 12/21/02 01:58 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"blind soul"  etc

Sola Fides, Sola Gratia, Solus Christus, Sola Scriptura?

Sola fides viis omnipotentiae Dei adhaerere potest arcanis. Haec fides gloriatur in infirmitatibus suis ut attrahat super se potentiam Christi.?!?!?

Hardly! 

Sola Ratio dear friend  Sola Ratio

You ask us to have faith without reason?  I hope not.  For faith without reason breeds contempt, contempt of others, contempt of self, and contempt of Truth.

"May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me." Jesus' Prayer Book of John Chapter 17

You wonder why the world mock's your God?  It may not be for any of the 'imagined' reasons you gave but merely because there is no evidence in front of them.  In His prayer Jesus intimated that the world would know He is the Christ if His Church was unified.  Is it?

I tell you plainly without a shred of evidence there is no reason to believe in God and every reason not to believe in Him.  And that evidence is the lives of the "believers".  Other so-called "Christians" that post here have given ample proof that either the God you believe in is a fraud or very few of His people follow Him.

That was a pretty quick nap, btw. :wink:

Cheers, 


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Anonymous

Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Phluck]
    #1160264 - 12/21/02 02:00 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Well said Phluck! I couldn't agree with you more.


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OfflineNomad
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Phluck]
    #1160266 - 12/21/02 02:02 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Well of course it does, if you've managed to convince yourself that everything and anything in existance were created by god. This is a prime example of an argument based entirely on a "sense" that you get. Just because you feel something is true, does not make it so.

The funny thing about this kind of rational argument is that you argue against something undefined. You have absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that Markos' concept of God is in any way related to your concept of God. I'm sorry, but this kind of frantically arguing against something which is undefined reveals more of the atheists' own ignorance and prejudice than that of the believer.

This is not really directed personally at you. It's just something I notice a lot and thought would be worth pointing out. Get real, people: If you want to make a rational argument about something, you'll first have to give your definition of it.

If, on the other hand, the believer refuses to define God, as is often the case, then the atheist cannot make an argument about it. Simple enough. This, then, does not mean that God is true, or that God is false, but that the concept you're dealing with is outside the realm of binary logic. To attach trueness or falseness to an undefined concept is a fallacy in itself.


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Anonymous

Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Swami]
    #1160281 - 12/21/02 02:09 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Let's not be too hasty in our presuppositions Swam.

Could God have designed a world with consciousness and not the possibility of pain? Think about that for a while.

Cheers,


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Nomad]
    #1160282 - 12/21/02 02:11 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

ARGH! I'm not a fucking atheist!

If you read what I posted you will realize that I quite clearly said that believing there is no god is just as stupid as believing that there is. Get a dictionary, and look up "atheism". Then look up "agnosticism".

It really doesn't matter what the concept of god is. Any concept of god is potentially false.

"To attach trueness or falseness to an undefined concept is a fallacy in itself."

An undefined concept is nothing. You can't possibly believe in god if you don't have any concept of what he/she/it is. I'm pretty sure all "believers" have at least some concept of what they believe god to be, and have thus attached a belief to something without any basis.



--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Phluck]
    #1160284 - 12/21/02 02:13 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Another point...

believing in god does not really answer any questions at all. Where did god come from?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Nomad]
    #1160298 - 12/21/02 02:24 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

And now you want to bring up that logic stuff?

[plugs ears and runs screaming from the room]

Na na na na na na na na na na

Seriously?

Indeed.


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OfflineNomad
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Phluck]
    #1160303 - 12/21/02 02:26 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If you read what I posted you will realize that I quite clearly said that believing there is no god is just as stupid as believing that there is. Get a dictionary, and look up "atheism". Then look up "agnosticism".

Okay, missed your point. Anyway,  I'm sure there's some atheist around here who can relate to what I wrote above.  :wink:

It really doesn't matter what the concept of god is. Any concept of god is potentially false.

Can you drop the word "god "? Because, it really doesn't matter what the concept is. Any concept is potentially false.

An undefined concept is nothing.

No, it's not. Nothingness is quite clearly defined.  But this kind of zen logic seems to piss a lot of people off. I've never figured out why.

You can't possibly believe in god if you don't have any concept of what he/she/it is. I'm pretty sure all "believers" have at least some concept of what they believe god to be, and have thus attached a belief to something without any basis.

I don't know if they have a concept or not. I'm just pointing out that you cannot argue rationally against them until they have laid out their concept to you. If the believer refuses to do that, you can't argue against him.


   


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Anonymous

Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Phluck]
    #1160306 - 12/21/02 02:29 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Don't get upset Phluck. It simply won't do to have an anurism in this forum. How would I explain that to Thor? Besides the EMT squad would cause a lot of noise and disturb the members that are sleeping.

"Where did god come from?"

There are various philosophical answers for that conundrum. God is a sufficient Being is but one.


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OfflineNomad
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
    #1160311 - 12/21/02 02:33 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I'll leave the realm of logic soon, again. I'm just on a journey through.


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Anonymous

Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Nomad]
    #1160317 - 12/21/02 02:38 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Cool! :cool:

Me too.  As someone said, "Logic is a good teacher but a bad Master."

Catcha on da flip side! :wink:


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OfflineNomad
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
    #1160323 - 12/21/02 02:43 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

beautiful  :laugh: 


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
    #1160332 - 12/21/02 02:57 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

It is not so much as "What hath Athens to do with Jerusalem?," as Tertullian put it, but that reason has its limitations, as does faith. The right tool for the right job. Existence itself is creation, and creation demonstrates the Creator to me and to others who understand what I'm saying. At this point in my life, I can't even really entertain the possibility of no Creator. I cannot attribute meaning from 'probability,' or from 'time,' or from any other comprehensible and therefore idolatrous notion.

The "world," better, 'cosmos,' itself perhaps a living reality, will become "All in all," according to mystics like Pierre teilhard de Chardin, following the Biblical saying. The Church of Christ is not to be confused with the outer manifestations in the world. It is a spiritual reality, invisible to the physical senses like the Divine Nature itself. Much of what we notice are wolves in sheep's clothing - counterfeits - pretenders, like cult leaders and 'accepted' officials (bishops, priests, and other pedophiles in collars). This is taking the shadow for the substance.

God will not and cannot be mocked. God equals Ultimate Reality, the very Idea of which blows me away, as I know that it transcends infinitely my most sublime imagination of possibility. I kneel and bow with reverence, I do not cower in terror. The irreverence of ignorant, vulgar men seeking only to aggrandize their own loud egos has no impact on Reality, but Reality will find such egos unable, unwilling and unworthy of any manner of theosis.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Swami]
    #1160344 - 12/21/02 03:09 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Yes...all of that. Like the Universal Vision given to Arjuna by Krishna, or perhaps more like the 'hind portions' of God given to Moses, lest the Divine Brilliance utterly destroy the man. God is a "Tremendum," a 'destroyer' like Kali Durga, like Satan, whom God created and employs (mythologically speaking). God's Nature is incommensurate with human life, hence the need for a Mediator, who mediates that aspect of God's nature to humans, and by which humans can enter into God without being annihilated. Christ is the 'transformer,' figuratively taken, that transforms our nature into a form that is "pleasing to God," or less anthropomorphically, an energy that no longer meets God as anti-matter meeting matter. God is not just sweetness and light. God is also bitterness and fire. Mercy and Judgement, as the right and left pillars of the Tree of Life describes.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1160365 - 12/21/02 03:28 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Nature is incommensurate with human life, hence the need for a Mediator, who mediates that aspect of God's nature to humans, and by which humans can enter into God without being annihilated. Christ is the 'transformer,' figuratively taken, that transforms our nature into a form that is "pleasing to God," or less anthropomorphically, an energy that no longer meets God as anti-matter meeting matter.

Who says Christ in the "transformer" or that we need a "transformer" at all. Perhaps the death of our bodies is the only transformation required. Without the trappings of our brain aren't we pure undefinable, intangible consciousness. The pure "isness" that is God (the one-sweetness and light, bitterness and fire).

All is in each, as each is in All.


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1160378 - 12/21/02 03:42 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

namu amidah butsu

maybe i don't have the answer, but i do know i'd rather be centered in the inner-mind than puppeted around by food, car, sex... exc.... not that those aren't good things, it's just all a matter of where you're sitting.

namu amidah butsu


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Swami]
    #1160386 - 12/21/02 03:49 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Fear, pain, grief and loss all scream of a Designer's loving hand? Not to me.

Designer? Who said God is a designer? Your concept of this generalized God should no be so defined as a 'designer'. I personally don't believe in someone or something created the universe. The universe just is- it's more like nature, and 'God' is seperated into varrying sizes of souls that dwell in this universe as well as every dimension (imo).

What I'm trying to say is- Don't say 'Why bla bla your creator, God do this?' when this only applies to some beliefs.

Also, If someone like you really wants to find out what god is, try starting with a clean slate and begin with the 1st dimension at 'the beginning of time'. From there, you can (as scientifically as possable) go down the line until you reach this universe here and now in the 3rd dimension- and beyond.

Just some advise for another view.  :tongue:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



Edited by Murex (12/21/02 03:51 PM)


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Phluck]
    #1160538 - 12/21/02 04:56 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Any concept of god is potentially false
yeah, right... pizza anyone?


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Revelation]
    #1160544 - 12/21/02 04:58 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

sex with God
I thought it was called music.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1160574 - 12/21/02 05:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

...invisible to the physical senses ...

So to what is it shouting? To shout generally means to make a noise louder than the surrounding noise so as to be noticed. If most men cannot hear, then God's presence can hardly be called a "shout", even metaphorically.

I was as sincere a seeker as anyone that I have met. I have listened in quiet for even a whisper and heard nothing but silence.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: raytrace]
    #1160585 - 12/21/02 05:15 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"pizza anyone?"

Sure, make me One with Everything.

Oh and I want extra anchovies, thick crust, and lots of sauce. Num!


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Anonymous

Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1160652 - 12/21/02 05:41 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"It is not so much as "What hath Athens to do with Jerusalem?," as Tertullian put it, but that reason has its limitations, as does faith. ETC"

Well put.  However I disagree.  I love that quote btw.  We have touched on this briefly before.  I understand your view and I reject it.  I have been where you are and it did not satisfy.  I am neither a Materialist nor a Mystic.  I am a Realist.  I do not let experiences, no matter how grand or wonderful, delude me into tossing reason out the door.  I do not let them dictate to me what is on the other side, if anything.

How would I know that the Spiritual "experience" I just had was not a bit of undigested beef or a mutton chop?  Maybe I had too much coffee or maybe my hormones were out of whack or my "biorhythms" were goofy.  You see what I mean?

I think there is evidence for the Ultimate Reality too but I do not let my intuitive side negate my rational one.  I like balance far too much to let that happen. :smile:

Great post though.  I really love the way you write.  Your writing is so refined I sometimes feel like a little kid when I read it.  You humble me. 


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1160692 - 12/21/02 06:07 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Why do you feel it is important to believe in god?

What purpose does it serve?


--------------------
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
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LET'S GO, DARWIN!


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Phluck]
    #1160887 - 12/21/02 07:50 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Deleted by admin


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1161159 - 12/21/02 11:20 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

If you don't believe in God Himself, shouldn't you have an answer you can die by?

Actually Enter, I understand your question completely, and it's a good one.  So let me ask the very same type of question of you.  If you don't believe in Hades, and you don't plan to have yourself buried with a few gold coins in your mouth when you die, will you have an answer for Charon the Boatman when it comes time for him to ferry you across the river Styx?  You wouldn't want to be condemned to wander in lonely desolation on the bank of the river Styx until the end of time, would you???

Remeber, people had just as much faith in the Greek Gods as we do of the "modern" God.  You better better have an answer you can die by, just in case...  :wink:       


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


Edited by GoBlue! (12/21/02 11:25 PM)


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
    #1161166 - 12/21/02 11:38 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Could God have designed a world with consciousness and not the possibility of pain?

Well, he certainly could've designed a world with consiousness and not the possibility of tornadoes!!!  :smile: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
    #1161277 - 12/22/02 02:53 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Sure, make me One with Everything.
ok, but the extra anchoives will cost you


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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1161464 - 12/22/02 06:20 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Atheism has its answers straight, we are what we are, we get what we see, we're gone when we die. Our answers are, essentially, proven and logical because it is simply the world around us, reality.

It is when you bring something based on faith into the picture that it now incites questioning. I think being agnostic is just fine, personally I'm not really sure if I'm an athiest or an agnostic, and I guess that makes me an agnostic, but at my base I am athiest. There are many questions in life that you can answer with any of a selection of religions, but what makes any of those answers true?

You can read through religious texts for answers, but what does that mean today, the mistakes and misbeliefs of others are hardly any interest to me. When there are so many different religions to choose from, which is the truth?

You can try to search for answers on your own, just by living life, or maybe through mushroom experiences. Any way you try to find answers on your own, do you know what you've really found? A "miracle" could be anything, the feeling you felt on your trip could be purely chemical.

To say you have the answers seems foolish to me. There are millions of people in the world who all have the answers, and all their answers are different. What makes your answers any more true?


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #1161495 - 12/22/02 06:43 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

When I first came to the Shroomery, I considered myself Athiest.  This is because no religion had any sort of evidence proving that it was real.  However, although I find serious weaknesses with all religions (such as how the Christian God changes his personality over time from a vengeful God - Noah, Abraham, Sodam & Gomarrah, etc., to a more loving God, etc.), I have been unable to disprove religion either (including the Greek gods that I referenced in my last post).  Therefore, I have to call myself Agnostic.

Like you, I believe Athiesm is probably the way things are.  But I think anyone who's been following the discussion on these boards almost has to be Agnostic.  No one has yet proven or disproven God's existance, and I assume when you say "our answers are, essentially, proven and logical", you really just mean they seem logical.  If Atheism has been proven, PLEASE share the proof with the Shroomery!!!  :laugh: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
    #1161524 - 12/22/02 06:57 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Thank you Scrooge. Like my childhood friend Gary, an American of Greek heritage, a physicist and geophysicist by trade, who I personally turned on to cannabis and acid - he has extended, or rather distended his ego to 'engulf' the mystic, non-rational psychedelic experience, rather than allow that experience to burst the boundaries of the rationally held universe. By his own admission, he has "an ego the size of Montana." This, however, did not prevent him from offering to take care of me to the end of my life if my melanoma turned out to be metastatic. So, like you, a very intelligent and kind person, he has chosen to identify himself with the rational soul. With you, of course, it is an extension of pure Platonism. With him, he married only a few years ago and his Greek Orthodox wife plus his dialogues with me have directed him to Christ, and so perhaps things are changing.

A strongly rational mind can be cause for a very inflated ego because a mind endowed with reason is a powerful mind, and power is a third chakra dominated personality. Recognizing the Transrational dimension of Reality is Truly humbling. Without allowing this process, and allowing the sharp edges of my reason to soften (intentionally), I could be an arrogant a**hole. I would rather be taken as 'weak minded' by some of the younger, arrogant and unenlightened readers here, than to be my former, unredeemed self. Jesus emptied Himself the Scriptures say. I have emptied myself in Imitatio Christi. You have recently noticed an 'edge' to some of my posts. If it were not for my priority of Compassion over reason, I'd be tearing new a**holes left and right in some of the assinine posts at this forum. I am taught by Compassion to lay down the sharp sword of Disciminating Wisdom at times. But paradoxically, it requires a certain Wisdom to know when to do that, and I believe that Wisdom , like Compassion, derives from a Transrational, Transcendental Source. This belief has made the whole difference in the quality of my life.

I like you very much, and I know you only from the electronically manifested words originating from you. Your reason is much to be admired, and you know that I appreciate its quality and value. But...would you (figuratively) kneel beside me with lowered eyes before the Infinite and Unfathomable Mystery, in true humility?


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Swami]
    #1161563 - 12/22/02 07:15 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Actually, this reminds me of something I recently read - that the closest thing in our world to God, is silence. Nevertheless, as William James worded it, the very world is a "buzzing, blooming confusion," in certain states of mind. Or perhaps as William Blake put it when he noted that one could find 'eternity in a flower' or 'infinity in a grain of sand,' these things are not 'merely' poetic, they are liguistic communications of one's perception of 'God' when the 'doors of perception' have
been opened. I cannot impart such a perception and simultaneous understanding to you with example or argument.

If you found an alien artifact, something that was unmistakenly not-of-this-world, would you not marvel, wonder about its creator[s], have your very world-view blown away by the discovery? Well, this is what existence has come to do to me, and it has been quite a struggle at times to remain in this world as a socially and occupationally functioning citizen. Mental illness has never been an avenue of consideration for me, but monastic life has been. If not for being a heterosexual with needs for the feminine form, I would've left society decades ago. I am living IN this world, with many of its amenities, but I am not OF this world, which is how St. Paul has put it. It is not for a philosophical point of view that I dialogue with you, it is merely to share a perception to the best of my ability.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1161565 - 12/22/02 07:16 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

"I'm suggesting that if any human desires to conclude that God does not exist, he/she should ask the right questions that would provide accurate answers so that an accurate conclusion can be made with confidence."

That conclusion cannot be made accurately, neither can the conclusion that god DOES exist. There is no definitive evidence either way.

"Furthermore, one should not be "pretty accurate" or "close enough" when we are discussing a subject that impacts the whole picture of life."

Someone who feels that their beliefs are "pretty accurate" or "close enough" is less of a fool than someone who believes whole-heartedly that there is or isn't a god.

"One must have answers he/she can live and die by in terms of having truth that transcends the average lifespan of a human."

Such answers are impossible to obtain. You may have convinced yourself you have an answer, but that does not make it accurate.

In a previous thread, you accused atheists of having a fear of facing god, I might as well go ahead and accuse all non-agnostics of having a fear of facing the fact that they don't know, and cannot know the answers.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1161579 - 12/22/02 07:25 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

My Dear MarkostheGnostic,

I know that you mean well and have come a long way, for which I commend you.

You could be an arrogant a**hole because that part of your nature remains. Instead of lashing out at others' egos may I suggest a refresher course in the practice of humility and in the emptying of the self as you, yourself, heartily endorse. Look not at your fellow man when you still have dross to be burnt.

Please let me be the judge on another's spiritual progress and degree of enlightenment.

Thank you.


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1161624 - 12/22/02 07:42 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

If it were not for my priority of Compassion over reason, I'd be tearing new a**holes left and right in some of the assinine posts at this forum.

In that case, we?re all grateful that you?re such an un"reason"able person.  :wink:

I am taught by Compassion to lay down the sharp sword of Disciminating Wisdom at times. But paradoxically, it requires a certain Wisdom to know when to do that.

A wise man knows that you lay down your sword when it isn?t sharp enough.

Would you not marvel, wonder about its creator[s], have your very world-view blown away by the discovery?

I?m sure if God were real, he would marvel at his own creator as well!

I believe this forum is all about the free exchange of thoughts and ideas.  It?s already lead me from being Athiest to being Agnostic.  If you can convince me of ?the truth?, that would be WONDERFUL, and I would forever grateful (no sarcasm ? that?s what I?m here to discover).  Feel free to rip me a new asshole anytime, because I am grateful for any piece of wisdom that I would gain as a result. 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1161639 - 12/22/02 07:51 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Markos, you seem to be enjoying this thread, so please, give us athiests a few reasons to believe in god.

I don't want a "everything around you is god" sort of answer, give us something that will really make an athiests mind twist and bend at the evidence you give us.

In truth, I wish I wasn't an athiest. I wish there was a god and an afterlife, I don't want to cease to exist. So please, help me believe.


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
    #1161644 - 12/22/02 07:52 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Cute, very cute.
Of course there's dross with the Gold. I'm human, and self-emptying is a process. (In fact Sunday night I take out both the garbage and the recyclables). I am not "lashing out," as I abhor the use of lashes, whips, flagrums on sentient beings, but as 'You' well know, a prophet's righteous indignation is directly connected to the Righteousness of the LORD.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1161656 - 12/22/02 08:00 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Markos, your post reminded me of listening to Ginsberg's _Wales Visitation_ earllier today.
-
"Wales Visitation" was written on the 6th hour or so hour of an acid trip in Wales at the house of my English publisher. The word "visitation" comes from the peregrinations of the Welsh bards, who went once from village to village rhyming their news and gossip. The poem uses two thirds of the notes made at that time, stitched together later. I was interested in making an artwork comprehensible to people not high on acid, an artifact which could point others' attention to microscopic details of the scene. They wouldn't necessarily know the poem was written on acid, but with an extraordinarily magnified visionary appreciation of the vastness of the motif in its "minute particulars," it might transfer the high consciousness of LSD to somebody with ordinary mind. By focusing the poem's eye outside of my thoughts onto external pictures details of the phenomenal world I was able to maintain a center and balance, continuing from beginning to end in an intelligible sequence, focusing on awareness of breath. It was coherent enough to publish in "The New Yorker", whose editors eliminated the note about acid.
-

to me, ginsberg's poem has those very qualities of an alien artifact.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1161689 - 12/22/02 08:20 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Does your A**hole hurt from blowing smoke up it all the time?

I still want to know why you think I need to believe in God.



--------------------
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
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LET'S GO, DARWIN!


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1161716 - 12/22/02 08:29 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

If you don't believe in God Himself, shouldn't you have an answer you can die by?

No. That type of question would only be asked by one ALREADY holding some religious belief.



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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1161810 - 12/22/02 09:09 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

"I'm suggesting that if any human desires to conclude that God does not exist, he/she should ask the right questions that would provide accurate answers so that an accurate conclusion can be made with confidence."

I couldn't have said it better myselt, Enter :smile:

Religion DOESN'T DO THIS...... peolpe who don't follow God theories are attempting to do that what you described. We understand it will never be complete, this quest for "truth." We understand that we'll never find all the "accurate answers" so that we can make an "accurate conclusion" with confidence.... every answer births more questions; we don't attempt to answer the unanswerable with illogical fables.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1162174 - 12/22/02 01:04 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

as 'You' well know, a prophet's righteous indignation is directly connected to the Righteousness of the LORD.

Everyone listen to the great self-proclaimed prohphet Markos, for his indignation is directly connected to the righteousness of the Lord!

hmm....What was that you were saying about arrogance

A strongly rational mind can be cause for a very inflated ego because a mind endowed with reason is a powerful mind, and power is a third chakra dominated personality. Recognizing the Transrational dimension of Reality is Truly humbling. Without allowing this process, and allowing the sharp edges of my reason to soften (intentionally), I could be an arrogant a**hole.

I would rather be taken as 'weak minded' by some of the younger, arrogant and unenlightened readers here, than to be my former, unredeemed self.

On the contrary Markos I find you to be quite 'strong minded', and possesing of a highly inflated ego.

Not trying to offend
This is not a flame



--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1162186 - 12/22/02 01:15 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

My response was to a guy who calls himself the LORD, so naturally, MY response was as tongue-in-cheek as is his tag. YOU, on the other hand are denser than Plutonium for reading my response as a literal proclamation of being a prophet. I'm as much a prophet as the poster is the LORD. Maybe you should read things more than once to avoid this kind of embarrassment.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1162191 - 12/22/02 01:22 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Maybe you should read things more than once to avoid this kind of embarrassment.

Embarrassed, hardly.

YOU, on the other hand are denser than Plutonium for reading my response as a literal proclamation of being a prophet.

Perhaps you should have specified.  The post you replied to was apparently in jest, yours on the other hand didn't seem to be joking.

Your denser than a star collapsed on itself :tongue:


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1162201 - 12/22/02 01:28 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Thanks for the compliment! Never reminded anyone of Ginsberg before. Short of a Vulcan mind-meld, or advanced earthly telepathy and empathy (head and heart), we are forced to use language to communicate. Sometimes high-level poetry, hymns or Scriptures can 'break on through to the other side,' and communicate their intended import to us. We are all suffering from existential insulation, isolation and alienation in one degree or another. We armor ourselves as Reich said, and fear the very Union that we simultaneously seek through sex, drugs, spiritual discipline, and [mistakenly] death.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinehighwayman
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an ans [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1162204 - 12/22/02 01:30 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

"Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer?"

Hmmmm, well... just to be on topic: nope... I'll find out about eternity when I get there... until then I'm quite too short on time to bother.

But I do have to comment on this:

"how the Christian God changes his personality over time from a vengeful God - Noah, Abraham, Sodam & Gomarrah, etc., to a more loving God, etc"

Well the answer is quite simple.

"On the twenty-seventh day, He created the pills and the tabs and the needles and the bongs. On the twenty-eighth day, He dosed upon all that He had created and He rested."

It's in my copy of the book.... *shrug*


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1162223 - 12/22/02 01:43 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

The misquote needs to be "God's Nature in incommensurate with human life," and Christians say that humankind requires a mediator. Zen Buddhists, like Gnostic Christians, believe that the mediator is ever-present and available. Buddhists say that the Buddha-Nature is present and accounted for. Gnostic Christians, in parallel (but not identical) fashion, say that Christ is present, here and now (redundant, for emphasis), and does not 'come again' as Jesus in some future time. The Presence of Christ transcends time. Christianity and Buddhism have many parallels, and some points of contact which are phenomenologically identical. That is to say, for example, that a Christian saint and a Buddhist saint may seem to be equally kind, and equally wise, but the Source of their spiritual attributes may, or may not be the same. Buddha is not Christ, and Sunyata is not God.

Pretty much everyone understands that death, the cessation of physical life in the body, is not a ticket to anywhere except the grave or pyre. Spiritual life-after-death is a continuation of the life lived in the body, hence the Christian urgency to Love, and the blessedness of being reborn as a human in Buddhism, so as to be able to practice Compassion.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (12/23/02 02:23 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an ans [Re: highwayman]
    #1162236 - 12/22/02 01:52 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Actually, over the course of several thousand years, it is humanity that has changed in its ability to see YHVH as a local, volcanic mountain deity, with thunderings and fires that do not consume, etc., and then go on to see the same God as a universal God - the Creator of Heaven, Earth, Sheol, and later Hell and Purgatory. A movement from 'Fire' to 'Light,' is paralleled in numerous ways corresponding to a general movement in human psychology; in predominance of third chakra to fourth chakra 'ideals' of 'Kingship'; to possibly what Julian Jaynes said in his book 'The Bicameral Mind' in which the development of ego in the psyche originally presented itself as an external 'voice,' the gods talking, and only later as a part of one's personality internalized. Lots of reasons. God remains God, man changes in his conceptualization. Peace.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinehighwayman
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an ans [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1162286 - 12/22/02 02:24 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Makes sense. I think though in all seriousness, I would personally write it off as a deliberate PR decision, "Happy Fun God" just plain sells better.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an ans [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1162319 - 12/22/02 02:34 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

You guys are all being silly.  And foolish.  Or maybe just silly.

This post makes me feel like this:  :crazy:  :confused:  :mad:  :crazy:  :confused:  :crazy:  :confused:  :mad:

Some reading for you all:

----------------------------

Once, long, long ago...
Yet, somehow, not so very long...

When all the animals and rocks and winds and waters,
And trees and birds and fish,
And all the beings of the world could speak and understand one another...

There began an argument.

It began softly at first...

Quiet as the first breeze that whispered,
"He is a wind who is never still."
Quiet as the stone that answered,
"He is a great rock that never moves."
Gentle as the mountain that rumbled,
"God is a snowy peak, high above the clouds."
And the fish in the ocean that answered,
"God is a swimmer, in the dark blue depths of the sea."

"No," said the star...
"God is a twinkling and a shining, far, far away."
"No," replied the ant...
"God is a sand and a smell and a feeling, who is very, very close."

"God," insisted the antelope, "is a runner, swift and free, who loves to leap and race with the wind."
"She is a great tree," murmured the willow. "A part of the world, always growing, and always giving."

"You are wrong," argued the island. "God is separate, and apart."
"God is like the shining sun; far above all things," added the blue sky.
"No! He is a river, who flows through the very heart of things," thundered the waterfall.

"She is a hunter!" roared the lion.
"God is gentle," chirped the robin.
"He is powerful," growled the bear.

And the argument grew louder and louder and louder...
Until...

"Stop!"

A new voice spoke.
It rumbled loudly like thunder.
And it whispered softly, like butterfly sneezes.
The voice came from Old Turtle.
Old Turtle hardly ever said anything, and certainly never argued about God!
But now Old Turtle began to speak...

"God is indeed deep," she said, to the fish in the sea.
"And much higher than high," she told the mountains.
"He is swift, and free as the wind. And still and solid as a great rock," she said to the breezes and stones.
"She is the life of the world," Turtle said to the willow...
"Always close-by, yet beyond the farthest, twinkling light," she told the ant and the star.
"God is gentle, and powerful. Above all things, and within all things. God is all that we dream of, and all that we seek," said Old Turtle.
"All that we come from, and all that we can find."
"God is."

Old Turtle had never said so much before.
All the beings of the world were surprised, and became very quiet.
But Old Turtle had one more thing to say:

"There will soon be a new family of beings in the world," she said.
"They will be strange, and wonderful. They will be reminders of all that God is. They will come in many colors and shapes, with different faces and different ways of speaking. Their thoughts will soar to the skies, but their feet will walk the earth. They will possess many powers. They will be strong, yet tender. A message of love from God to the earth, and a prayer from the earth back to God."

And the people came...

But the people forgot.

They forgot that they were a message of love and a prayer from the earth.
And they began to argue...
About who knew God, and who did not.
And where God was and was not.
And whether God was or was not.

And often, the people misused their powers and hurt one another.
Or killed one another.

And they hurt the earth.

Until finally, even the forests began to die.
And the rivers, and the oceans...
The plants and the animals...
And the earth itself.

Because the people could not remember who they were,
Or where God was.

Until one day there came a voice...
Like the growling of thunder, but as soft as butterfly sneezes.

"Please, stop!"

The voice seemed to come from the mountain, who rumbled:
"Sometimes I see God swimming, in the dark blue depths of the sea."
And from the ocean, who sighed:
"He is often among the snow capped peaks, reflecting the sun."
From the stone, who said:
"I sometimes feel Her breath, as She blows by."
And from the breeze, who whispered:
"I feel His still presence, as I dance among the rocks."
And the star declared,
"God is very close."
And the island added,
"His love touches everything."

And after a long, lonesome, and scary time...
The people listened, and began to hear, and to see God in one another...
And in the beauty of all the earth.

And Old Turtle smiled.
And so, did God

----------------------------


--------------------
Namaste.


Edited by RebelSteve33 (12/22/02 02:35 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1162615 - 12/22/02 04:23 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

A strongly rational mind can be cause for a very inflated ego because a mind endowed with reason is a powerful mind, and power is a third chakra dominated personality.

Absolutely. Unless it is tempered by the fact and/or awareness of one's own ignorance. I do not worship reason because my own mind is powerful or strong and I do not equate or mistake my own ratiocination for God's Supreme gift of reason. Mine is but a taper where His is like the burning Sun.

But...would you (figuratively) kneel beside me with lowered eyes before the Infinite and Unfathomable Mystery, in true humility?

Of course. My own ignorance which is ever present and always with me leads me gently to bow before the ineffable. Though I cannot speak intelligently about my own humility, true or false. I cannot be sure but I think it may be a virtue that if observed cannot exist. Only when it is unobserved by its owner can it be true.


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
    #1162935 - 12/22/02 06:15 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Thanks. Crystal clarity [ping].


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an ans [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1162953 - 12/22/02 06:20 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Thanks for the effort...nice story, and as I am headed to bed, it's the first bedtime story I've had in a lo-n-n-n-g time.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an ans [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1162964 - 12/22/02 06:23 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Beautiful Steve. I enjoyed that immensely. Where did you get it from?


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an ans [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1163143 - 12/22/02 07:30 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Thanks... I like it very much myself and thought it was quite fitting for this thread! :smile:

I originally posted it a while ago in  this thread, which will explain where I got it from.


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Phluck]
    #1163148 - 12/22/02 07:31 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1163590 - 12/23/02 02:26 AM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Oh yeah...well you're denser than a big fat black hole with doody on it!


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1164392 - 12/23/02 09:32 AM (19 years, 29 days ago)

LOL :grin:


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1164802 - 12/23/02 12:14 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

I understand that if you have faith you will believe in god. However, with faith you can convince yourself of absolutely anything. Using faith I could convince myself I had an invisible monkey that followed me around helping me out in life. Would this mean that there was actually an invisible monkey helper there for me? No, of course not, it would make me delusional.


"1. The fascinating design of the universe and living things"

The universe sure is fascinating and beautiful, but what reason is there to believe that beauty cannot be created without consciousness?

"2. The independent action God has taken in my life"

Things may have happened in your life which you believe were the direct actions of god, but there really isn't evidence that these events were the actions of a god.

"3. The number of Christians who shared prophetic and even 'psychic' information with me, though I would prefer not to use the word psychic."

Every religion is filled with people who have experienced mystical intervention from their gods. Christianity is hardly alone in this one. Many of the information they received directly contradicts what you believe as a christian. I'm sure you've taken psychedelics before, and you managed to cause hallucinations and mystical feelings just by altering your brain chemistry. How can you know for certain that such experiences are not simply brief moments of altered conciousness brought on by a temporary chemical imbalance in the brain, and hyped up by an overactive imagination?

"4. The activities which occur internally and externally before, during and after prayer"

Prayer is a form of meditation, just another thing that changes your state of consciouness. The experiences you have are mirrored by those praying to contradictory gods. How do you know that they weren't created by an overactive imagination?

"5. The powerful impartations I receive from reading much of the Bible."

You receive information from the bible. I receive information when I read the bible too, same with the dictionary. Still don't believe in god.

"6. The experiences I have had outside of prayer in very sober states of existence, as well as moments after consuming psilocybe mushrooms."

Again, this is just an example of you convincing yourself that your experiences are related to your god.

etc, etc, etc...

"9. Last but not least (as I write these off the tip of my tongue), I would have to say that it's pretty darn obvious to an open eye that God is quietly upholding all that is, and He truly has His own personality though he remains so silent, so mysterious, and even One to truly fear."

There really isn't anything that makes this obvious. If you convince yourself that god is real, and that he's controlling everything around you, you will start to find patterns that will back this up. If there's anything the human mind is good at, it's finding patterns. Patterns can be found absolutely everywhere. If someone believes that god is helping them through life, they'll notice every coincidental piece of good fortune they have, and come to the conclusion that there are so many that it must have been god's intervention. If they believe that god is out to get them, they'll tally all of their misfortunes together, and use it as evidence that god is harming them. Life is filled with coincidences, this does not mean that they were put there by god, of course, if you have FAITH, it will seem blindingly obvious, but faith is not evidence for anything. Like I said, you can convince yourself that anything is true using faith, but that will not make it so.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Phluck]
    #1164807 - 12/23/02 12:16 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Well done! I thought those were very good answers.


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1164828 - 12/23/02 12:32 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

I don't believe God based on the following criteria:

1. The terrible design of the universe and living things.  We have flood, earthquakes, hurricanes, etc. to worry about in addition to human problems like war.  Our bodies were so poorly designed in that 1 in 8 of us will get cancer, I can break an arm just by falling down, I can get a deadly disease just from having sex, etc... If someone was put in charge of designing the human body, I'd give them a D+ for their efforts.
2. The lack of action God has taken in my life.  Fortunately, I am a successful person because I take my life into my own hands, and I refuse to sit on my ass and pray for something to happen.
3. The number of Atheists on these boards who have shared convincing and thought provoking information with me, without ever forcing me to rely on my imagination (psychic visions, etc) as the only way to get me to see their point.
4. The activities which fail to occur after prayer.  When I used to be religious, praying didn't seem to help much at all.  Fortunately, I?ve discovered that actions are quite effective at solving problems.
5. The crap I discover when reading much of the Bible.  It amazes me that people still take the book seriously at all.  I am told that I take the teaching of the bible too literally.  Whatever.
6. The experiences I have had in very sober states of existence, as well as moments after consuming psilocybe mushrooms have convinced me that there is no God.
7. The power of music to enhance ANY beliefs I want them to.
8. When I seem to fall to a low state, I can recover through several, well timed and well executed actions, without relying on any imaginary help.  Then again, imagination can be also be used in these situations.
9. Last but not least (as I write these off the tip of my tongue), I would have to say that it's pretty darn obvious to an open eye that God is NOT the one who upholds all that is, and He truly remains so silent, so mysterious, and One not worth fearing.

You see how your post was just a bunch of "fluff"???  Anyone can make any argument they want by doing that.

Back to the original question:  ?Shouldn't you have an answer??  I assume you mean ?what if I?m wrong about there being no God?.  That?s a great question.  Well, what if YOU?RE wrong, and you meet Charon the boatman after you die (refer to my previous post in this thread).  Shouldn?t YOU have an answer for Him??? 

Edit:  Hey Phluck, I just noticed you posted something similar to my answer.  I think we definitely agree with each other.  :laugh:


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


Edited by GoBlue! (12/23/02 12:35 PM)


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Phluck]
    #1165164 - 12/23/02 03:30 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Please tell me more about the invisible monkey. I have a strong desire to know and believe.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Swami]
    #1165234 - 12/23/02 04:18 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Please tell me more about the invisible monkey. I have a strong desire to know and believe. 


No,No, can't you see he's got it all wrong?

It's not invisible monkeys that help you out, It's invisible LEPRECHAUNS!!!!

That should be pretty damn obvious to anyone with an open eye :grin:


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


Edited by 3eyedgod (12/23/02 04:19 PM)


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1165522 - 12/23/02 06:53 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

I know that it is invisible helper monkeys, anyone who believes otherwise is working against the Great Ape, and shall be banished to the Lair of the Evil Lemur.

If you truly open yourself to your helper monkey, then it will be quite apparent that he exists. You shall bask in the great fortune he delivers, and feast on his wonderful gifts of proverbial bananas.

"Shouldst thou open thine heart to the love of the monkey, thou shalt be open to the greatest of all loves, and thine heart shall shine unto the plains, feeding the primate love unto all who have peeled the true Banana" -Orangutan 6:21


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1165558 - 12/23/02 07:09 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

for something to exist doesnt it have to consist of something? if god exist he/she/it consists of something. what made the stuff that god consists of? another god? does god have a god?


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Phluck]
    #1166026 - 12/24/02 01:10 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1166169 - 12/24/02 04:07 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Enter. Im just curious as to what your personal idea of "God" is. I mean there are hundreds if not thousands of examples of the ideal of "God". I mean do you feel that "God" is an eternal type of energy and love permeating all things, allowing us free will. Or are you more of the camp that feels that "God" is a huge type blond man sitting in the throne of heaven striking down heathens, and pulling the strings of everybodys life. Do you believe that "God" exsists in all things, or jusst humans? Not flaming or anything. Just curious.


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================================================So what's your peace of mind huh? A swiss watch? leasin' a Lex on credit? all the pussy and liquor a nigga can get..put together this puzzle, but my pieces won't fit.. {Ras kass}


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Phluck]
    #1166359 - 12/24/02 05:48 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

"Shouldst thou open thine heart to the love of the monkey, thou shalt be open to the greatest of all loves, and thine heart shall shine unto the plains, feeding the primate love unto all who have peeled the true Banana" -Orangutan 6:21

"I never met an ape I didn't like." - Planet of the Apes



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1167543 - 12/24/02 12:29 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

When I'm so lost and weak minded that I feel I need to make up a fantasy in order maintain the will to live, perhaps I will do so. Until then, I'll keep thinking.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Phluck]
    #1167765 - 12/24/02 02:37 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Beautiful :smile:

Its funny how believers see us as so lost and scared, because we see them the same way!


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: FatNug]
    #1168010 - 12/24/02 05:09 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1168239 - 12/24/02 06:57 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

We can also treat Him like a nobody, like the numerous people we all pass everyday of our life without initiating conversation or heartfelt interest.

Hello, God?  Are you there?  Please stop treating me like a nobody and ignoring yet another one of my attempts at conversation with you (I?ve made hundreds of attempts when I was a devout believer).  Since you won?t speak to me directly, should I open my imagination up to a conversation with you?  I tried that with the Great Monkey, and He insisted that He, in fact, is the Great One, and I should pay no attention to any conversation I might have with you.  Of course, my rational mind insists that wasn?t a real conversation, but rather just one that I would have liked to have had with Him; so how do I know that a similar conversation with you would be any more real?  Is the conversation supposed to be one way where I do all the talking?  I just don?t get this whole communication thing and am looking for help, either from you directly, or from an enlightened member of the Shroomery.  :smirk:

Likewise, and more noteably, God can decide to find delight in 'communion' with certain individuals or groups of people.

How about a post from God to the Shroomery!?!?  That would be cool.  :grin:

Seriously, how is this communication thing supposed to work?  :confused:     


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1168264 - 12/24/02 07:05 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1168337 - 12/24/02 07:37 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Thanks for the reply.  I think what you're saying then, is to see the 9 points you made to Phluck a few posts back.

Happy holidays!!!  Hope you and everyone else has a great Christmas!  :smile: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1168758 - 12/25/02 03:43 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

GOD isn't a person! God is just another word for reality, or zen! Thats what I'll live by, and never die by, because death is a false pretense.


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1168965 - 12/25/02 06:51 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Remy]
    #1168968 - 12/25/02 06:52 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Remy]
    #1168991 - 12/25/02 07:06 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

In reply to:

God is just another word for reality



That's my preferred way of looking at it, I spell god as N-A-T-U-R-E aka T-H-E U-N-I-V-E-R-S-E, or aka R-E-A-L-I-T-Y and I don't assign anthropomorphic characteristics to it. The beauty, the mystery and the power of reality becomes an easy object for misunderstanding and manipulation of the gullible when reduced to myths and dogma.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Evolving]
    #1169000 - 12/25/02 07:15 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1169058 - 12/25/02 07:49 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

and?


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an ans [Re: World Spirit]
    #1169483 - 12/25/02 11:44 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

How many people here actually understand what a 'gnostic' is, or what gnosis is?


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an ans [Re: Zahid]
    #1169539 - 12/25/02 12:19 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an ans [Re: World Spirit]
    #1169576 - 12/25/02 12:45 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

I ate too much Christmas ham and fixin's and it made me feel gnostic to my stomach.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1169796 - 12/25/02 03:23 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

I do not believe in many Eastern teachings which make us all a part of God. God is on His own.

If you write a song, a poem, a story, a play, or paint a picture, aren't they a "part" of you, and you a part of them.


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


Edited by 3eyedgod (12/25/02 03:24 PM)


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1170127 - 12/25/02 05:50 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1171086 - 12/26/02 09:43 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

why do you have a signature?


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1171477 - 12/26/02 02:23 PM (19 years, 26 days ago)

He is the only one who knows all things at all times and can meditate on all of that information at the same time. He is the only one who can experience a thousand years of existence all at the same time. I could go on.

I beg to differ. What's the highest level trip you've ever taken? Please go on.


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an ans [Re: Swami]
    #1171686 - 12/26/02 04:56 PM (19 years, 26 days ago)

Hey! I heard that!  :smile:


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #1171816 - 12/26/02 05:36 PM (19 years, 26 days ago)

Hmmm...Have you ever experienced the expansion of a warm glow of affection grow into a raging fire of [asexual] passion, during which you wanted to express just how much a buddy meant to you, but you didn't know how to do that for fear of being misunderstood? Maybe you were drunk, or tripping. Ever been celibate for a long time and the gratitude of having found someone who let you into her body and perhaps her heart, powered by the heat of sexual desire, rent your own heart, and for a time you felt absolute love for that person? Have you ever taken a high dose of acid, alone, perhaps in a sunny field on a spring day and not only experienced the smells, sounds and sights of nature, but when you looked at the sky you saw silvery-blue kaleidoscopic displays of pearly gates; and when you closed your eyes you saw Light or Colored Visions that you couldn't describe, while feeling ecstatic, which you also couldn't describe, and wanted God to just take you at that moment because you Knew that even though it meant that your family would find your corpse, you just Knew that you'd be caught up into ever-higher states of ecstasy and Light? Have you ever gotten very frightened for your life, say, come down with cancer, been treated, and given a bill of health; or come very close to death in some accident, and felt the gratitude that followed?

Do you ever pray, or do you just feel stupid like you're talking to the air or to yourself? It is OK to pray for 'things,' but that is not the whole of it. Did you ever just 'wish' that someone would recover from illness, and they did, or if they died, they died in peace, without fear? Have you ever had 'satori' experiences out of knowhere, when everything was A-OK and all your doubts, fears, internal chatter and negative feelings had vanished - if only for a moment - and you felt grateful?

If you can answer yes to any of these questions, then you can follow any of those experiences to God, just like a radar beacon. Stop programming your mind with thoughts about whether God exists or not - they're mental constructs that obscure the transrational 'organ of faith.' God is not known rationally, creation is known rationally. God is known by the Heart - not the muscle or the 'emotions,' or the Anahata Chakra. God is known in childlike simplicity, through inward focus, through the very will to Know, in the Sacred Heart - the Heart Cave - the very Center of our psychospiritual life. It is a doorway, it is The Way.

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." (Matthew 7:7) It is this simple. Or, in the words of the Bible AND 'BE HERE NOW,' page 1, "The Heart Cave - 'Except ye be converted and become as little children ye shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.' Unless you start again - become that trusting, open, surrendered being - the Energy can't come in. That is the Kingdom of Heaven. The Energy. It is the same thing - Cosmic Consciousness." It not only dwells in us, we dwell in it. The game is to Realize that.


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1172326 - 12/26/02 07:39 PM (19 years, 26 days ago)

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: trendal]
    #1229830 - 01/18/03 08:43 PM (19 years, 3 days ago)

*deleted*


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an ans [Re: X.O]
    #1229834 - 01/18/03 08:44 PM (19 years, 3 days ago)

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1229868 - 01/18/03 08:59 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

*deleted*


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1229877 - 01/18/03 09:04 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1229879 - 01/18/03 09:06 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

*deleted*


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1229882 - 01/18/03 09:09 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
    #1229898 - 01/18/03 09:23 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1229933 - 01/18/03 09:42 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

*deleted*


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: jdm]
    #1229940 - 01/18/03 09:46 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

jdm: As for the "you can't prove god doesn't exist" crap statements, YOU CANNOT PROVE A NEGATIVE. Get it through your head. That is like saying "you can't prove that pink invisible dragons don't exist"

Yeah... we've argued this one before.
Sometimes people just don't understand such things... especially when it casts doubt on their pet beliefs.


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1229947 - 01/18/03 09:58 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

*deleted*


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: jdm]
    #1230074 - 01/18/03 11:58 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

jdm, although I feel you should try and keep your responses a bit more respectful and within one or two posts, I also think your arguments kick ass  :cool:


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: jdm]
    #1230326 - 01/19/03 05:32 AM (19 years, 2 days ago)

What Strumpling is referring to is our "Be Nice" policy which you may have or may not have read.  Please read it.  It will give you a better idea of the way we interact in this forum.

Welcome to SPS and the Shroomery! :smile:

Enjoy your stay!

Cheers


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1230569 - 01/19/03 08:15 AM (19 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

If you don't believe in God Himself, shouldn't you have an answer you can die by?




To have an answer that you feel is sufficient to die by is bot arogant and foolish. I cannot proclaim to know near enough to answer such a question. Is there a God I guess I will find out when I die.


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: lvleph]
    #1231741 - 01/19/03 06:37 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1231829 - 01/19/03 07:00 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

Enter: "I guess" is quite primitive in thinking. "I believe" is a bit more mature.

If he said "suppose", you wouldn't be able to carry out such subtle personal attacks. But I suppose lvleph would have a more "mature" perspective if he agreed with you, now, wouldn't he?

I won't tolerate you pulling out any bullshit stops.
Especially on newbies to S&P&S (and the Shroomery at large)... it only discourages (a violation of the "Be Nice" policy you're so quick to quote).


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1232028 - 01/19/03 07:59 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

no way, Sclorch....

I guess Enter's correct. He's rock-solid :tongue:


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1232038 - 01/19/03 08:02 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1232040 - 01/19/03 08:04 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

Knowing, it would seem, comes by degree. It is a word that is equivalent to the notion of being Enlightened. For individuals who do not believe in God, there is no awareness of God, and hence no conscious interaction with God, which is prayer.

It is futile to debate the existence of God with a person whose makeup is purely 'existential,' rather than 'ontological' (ontos=being) or 'spiritual.' They will speak primarily in materialistic terms, citing the obviousness of birth, life, death, decay, etc. One who is unaware, or unconscious of the Eternal in the midst of everyday existence will therefore not endeavor to Know this Ultimate Reality in a deeper way. A believer can understand the non-believer's viewpoint, as it is based upon simple sensory data. The non-believer is not capable of understanding the believer's viewpoint FROM the believer's viewpoint. [S]he can only hold an opinion or a perception ABOUT the believer's viewpoint that is not grounded in a transcendental perspective. This includes any theistic believer versus the non-believer.

The issue of the existence vs. non-existence of God should not become a debate. It is not an argument that can be won because the 'proof' can be discovered only by each individual's own experience of Knowledge. In other words, one's proof is discovered only in the 'before belief' and 'after belief' quality of one's own life (inner and outer). Proof cannot be presented, nor accepted one person to another. Any improvement in the life of the believer could be attributed to multiple external causes by the unbeliever. That our being derives moment-to-moment from the Ground of Being, is evident to the believer by Gnosis, or Faith, or Intuition (mysticism). For the unbeliever, the awareness of the connection between our spirit and Spirit, is not present. Do not expect to connect with that individual in the depth of that awareness of Spirit that Christians call Christ, or which other theistic believers name the Holy interface between God and humans.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1232058 - 01/19/03 08:11 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

I never really thought that delusions could, in fact, be proof.

Huh... you learn somethin' new everyday.


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1232063 - 01/19/03 08:13 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1234128 - 01/20/03 01:44 PM (19 years, 1 day ago)

Well, if you ARE a social masochist, then feel free to knock yourself out, but it's your own Fight Club. As for myself, I am more than willing to answer any questions about my experience of religious life (such as it is), if I feel the questioner is sincere, but I'm not going to 'cast my pearls before swine,' or attempt to plant 'seeds of faith,' in the stoney hearts of those who scorn [" : an emotion involving both anger and disgust : contempt : disdain"]. I learned long ago not to lay my trip on people without invitation.

Naturally, when one takes an open approach to such things, the subsequent vulnerability allows the occasional individual with sociopathic tendencies to enter into a dialogue with an  agenda to manipulate and deceive for his perverse pleasure. But meeting with the occasional sincere soul outweighs being fooled by many a**holes. In this format, I must learn simply to pass over various forms of 'baiting' for useless argument, but of course there are a few master baiters here who are difficult at times to ignore :smile: 


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1234176 - 01/20/03 02:06 PM (19 years, 1 day ago)

Speaking as a masterbator I resemble that remark! :mad:

Yes, I concur with your statement about truth telling to those who wish to abuse what they cannot understand and in turn rending the messenger.  I have no use for such folly.  It does neither them nor me any good.

This is why I prefer to speak metaphorically or parabolically or sometimes I'll just state a broad principle and let it go at that.

Peace


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
    #1234870 - 01/20/03 07:42 PM (19 years, 1 day ago)

rofl Mr. FUNgus


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1235008 - 01/20/03 08:50 PM (19 years, 23 hours ago)

Enter- please define the thing you call "God," and I'll tell you whether I believe in it or not.


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1235147 - 01/20/03 10:44 PM (19 years, 22 hours ago)

Satan is good 4U.

He never did anything except make people think.


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Xibalba]
    #1235438 - 01/21/03 04:48 AM (19 years, 15 hours ago)

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1235459 - 01/21/03 05:02 AM (19 years, 15 hours ago)

Quote:

"I guess" is quite primitive in thinking. "I believe" is a bit more mature.





It might be a better world if everyone realised most of our beliefs are only guesses at the end of the day...

Perhaps people wouldnt be so eager to defend their guesses with the blood of others?


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1236179 - 01/21/03 10:25 AM (19 years, 10 hours ago)

Ok...

Quote:

?
It's funny how so many humans have so much personality, so much intensity living within them. Yet, for all that, they ignore the personality and personification of God Almighty.
If you can't picture God in a human body, at least try to temporarily picture God as a life force with a name, a will, desires, emotions based on will, and identity. God's actions and creations are apart of His work. Separate the work from the Worker and you will find Someone with exceedingly awesome intelligence and power.





You call God "Him". Do you do this out of convenience & tradition or do you believe your god is, in some meaningful sense, male?

Ok. So far, we have- It's male, it has a personality like that of a human, and there is only one. Already I can pretty confidently say I don't believe in any such God myself.

But that's still pretty vague. Could you specify his desires, his will? Where he came from? The limits to his involvement in human affairs? What exactly he does to influence the universe, apart from having created it? And how much he is, or is not, in your mind the Hebrew tribal god YHWH and / or the supposed father of Jesus?





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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Xibalba]
    #1236246 - 01/21/03 10:50 AM (19 years, 9 hours ago)

Xibalba.... I thought you knew that Enter's "God" is really JHVH-1, an alien space monster.  Non-Yeti (it is a theory that some Yeti can) can't change the SKOR, but JHVH-1 can.  His "Heavenly Host," consisting of sub-neutrinos, "Wotrons" and "bobyon" particles, can shred the channels and pathways of the Skor as easily as a SubGenius would hoodwink a Pink.  Yes, the Luck Plane is edited.  So it would be a good idea to have a divine copy editor on the dole :wink:


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1236416 - 01/21/03 11:48 AM (19 years, 8 hours ago)

Stop it! :mad:

You're making me giggle like a giddy schoolboy over here!

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Xibalba]
    #1236829 - 01/21/03 02:12 PM (19 years, 6 hours ago)

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1236847 - 01/21/03 02:18 PM (19 years, 6 hours ago)

Enter, you are getting so annoying..... I thought you actually knew something for a while a couple months back, but dude you're leading everybody around in circles.


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1236854 - 01/21/03 02:20 PM (19 years, 6 hours ago)

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1236925 - 01/21/03 02:43 PM (19 years, 6 hours ago)

How's this: You have not proved anything at all.


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1236930 - 01/21/03 02:44 PM (19 years, 6 hours ago)

And now you reply with something like "Ahh, but the proof is all around you."

How "intelligent" is that?


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1236994 - 01/21/03 03:01 PM (19 years, 5 hours ago)

The thing that made me reconsider my belief in God was my 3rd grade teachers horrible responce to a question I asked about the subject (it was a private school). "If people who dont worship God go to hell, what about people who have never heard about God or read the bible?" She told me that everybody at some point was taught about God; and that was good enough for me at the time.

Years later I realise that she couldn't have been right. If only Native Americans inhabited the 'new world' prior to the 1500's, they could never have learned about Christianity. This means they worshiped whatever Native Americans worishped at the time: sun, moon, stars, various gods, etc..

I do believe in God, but  I'm not technically Christian because I dont currently go to church or read the Christian Bible. I have faith that God exists and I accept that it can not be prooved. Proof is the anthisis of faith. If its proof you need to believe, then you don't have faith.

edit: wanted unbold that; I'm an idiot, no?  :tongue:


Edited by TeKHeAD009 (01/21/03 03:16 PM)


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: TeKHeAD009]
    #1237052 - 01/21/03 03:20 PM (19 years, 5 hours ago)

Faith in God is an illusion.

It consists mostly of faith in yourself (your own "righteousness", "enlightenment" and also perception), faith in the information you have been given (faith in the Bible, Torrah, Qurran, Rede...) and in those who gave it to you.

Faith in God is merely faith in faith.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: TeKHeAD009]
    #1237093 - 01/21/03 03:33 PM (19 years, 5 hours ago)

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1237115 - 01/21/03 03:41 PM (19 years, 5 hours ago)

who do you think TAUGHT you your belief?

Church and Literature.

You wouldn't have come up with this trash on your own.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (01/21/03 03:42 PM)


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1237124 - 01/21/03 03:45 PM (19 years, 5 hours ago)

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1237131 - 01/21/03 03:46 PM (19 years, 5 hours ago)

Where's the beef?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Evolving]
    #1237271 - 01/21/03 04:27 PM (19 years, 4 hours ago)



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1237436 - 01/21/03 05:11 PM (19 years, 3 hours ago)

Hey...how about, 'you become your ignorance?' I'm reading a text on mysticism, and one of the chapters is on Theresa of Avila who wrote 'Interior Castle,' and some other classics in Christian mysticism. The different states of being this Carmelite monastic wrote about and categorized are now classic. Those who are educated in the highest practices of contemplation can appreciate her contributuion to humanity's store of knowledge. There are people like Ken Wilber, for example, whose degree of intellection is well acknowledged, and artist Alex Grey, whose art I know you've seen, who have a deep understanding of Christian mysticism, and it's modern magnification by the use of Entheogens.

Have you not noticed the painfully few individuals at this forum who can say, because they understand, that Christ is the Way to be? Do you not notice that individuals here post under a spirituality & philosophy (oh, yes, and now the secularizing influence of science) forum, and yet have anger and even contempt for things deemed Christian? With such animosity, there can be no genuine spirituality present in such lives under any other tradition. There is instinct and intellection, but little mediating Compassion, despite references to bodhisattvas, swamis, or higher order humans in any other tradition. This, like other similar forums (e.g., Drooldonkey, the Lycaeum, etc.) has attracted haters, the envious, the cynical, the abused, and worst of all, the demonic. Unbelief is not experienced with a humble desire to believe, but with ridicule of believers. Like those who "put out their lips," as the New Testament described the sadistic mockers of Jesus on the way to His crucifixion, there are those who use this forum to express their own tormented selves. There is laughter, and there is laughter, but the laughter of pure joy is absent from the hearts of such dark souls. Martyrdom worked only minimally - masochism doesn't work at all as a change agent. People have to want to change - thus sayeth the therapist :smile: 


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineTeKHeAD009
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1237463 - 01/21/03 05:19 PM (19 years, 3 hours ago)

Faith is an illusion.
Thats interesting, I never saw it that really what your putting your faith in is the information about God, and the people who present it.

I retain my faith despite my teacher because I look around me and dont believe that everything created was a result of evolution and the a spontanious big bang (and under the Christian catagory because thats what I was taught since a young age).


Edited by TeKHeAD009 (01/21/03 05:31 PM)


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1237465 - 01/21/03 05:19 PM (19 years, 3 hours ago)

If only Christianity weren't so poorly represented...

It's not wrong to believe that someone else's beliefs are wrong, but it is foolish to believe someone elses beliefs are foolish.


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Anonymous

Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1238066 - 01/21/03 10:12 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Have you not noticed the painfully few individuals at this forum who can say, because they understand, that Christ is the Way to be? Do you not notice that individuals here post under a spirituality & philosophy (oh, yes, and now the secularizing influence of science) forum, and yet have anger and even contempt for things deemed Christian? With such animosity, there can be no genuine spirituality present in such lives under any other tradition. There is instinct and intellection, but little mediating Compassion, despite references to bodhisattvas, swamis, or higher order humans in any other tradition. This, like other similar forums (e.g., Drooldonkey, the Lycaeum, etc.) has attracted haters, the envious, the cynical, the abused, and worst of all, the demonic. Unbelief is not experienced with a humble desire to believe, but with ridicule of believers. Like those who "put out their lips," as the New Testament described the sadistic mockers of Jesus on the way to His crucifixion, there are those who use this forum to express their own tormented selves. There is laughter, and there is laughter, but the laughter of pure joy is absent from the hearts of such dark souls. Martyrdom worked only minimally - masochism doesn't work at all as a change agent. People have to want to change - thus sayeth the therapist  :smile:





True dat!


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Anonymous

Fill in the Form please [Re: ]
    #1238114 - 01/21/03 11:03 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

ATTENTION

I'm looking for a few outstanding individuals to serve in the kingdom of heaven...bla..bla..bla.. please send a money or bank check of the amount of $100 US to banknr. 555777...bla...bla..bla...ad a list of your intrests and hobbies and if you want to be a active member or not...bla...bla...bla...you should get a pass soon... bla...bla... :grin: 


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1238232 - 01/22/03 02:33 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

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Anonymous

Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1239015 - 01/22/03 09:25 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Thank you Enter


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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
    #1239344 - 01/22/03 11:14 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

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