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I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God!
    #2296494 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2296548 -

I would very much so like to see it :smile:

I once read a mathematical/phyiscal proof of the existence of God...but was unconvinced (it used some illogical reasoning, I think).


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2296554 -

I'm interested, man. The only evidence I have is just experience with an open mind.. :wink:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2297452 -

Interrested. Hoping its something original and not for example Spinoza's proof.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2297460 -

I'm reading Descartes right now and Spinoza next in my Philosophy class at school. I'd be really interested to see it.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2297522 -

/me is interested.

Lana

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2297533 -

"philosophical" evidence?

I'm interested to hear this because I'm wondering what "philosophical evidence" is.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2297621 -

I think I speak for the rest of us when I say, "I DONT want to see your evidence!"


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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2297700 -

U know im interested :wink:


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What?

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2297882 -

Har Har, Mr. Mushrooms  :wink:

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Grav]
    #2297894 -

>I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God!

Don't cristians have the same thing I wonder? Sure lets see it.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2297901 -

lets see this "evidense"! i'm not sure why you wouldn't post it in the first place unless you are playing a joke or have some sort of other hidden agenda.


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ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2297940 -

I'd be interested.


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Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2297958 -

everything is "philisophical" evidence of god


--------------------
Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2298020 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2298037 -

What is this "God" you speak of? I feel that a definition here would be helpful.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: silversoul7]
    #2298084 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2298372 -

might as well link to this thread, M_M:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...t=1#Post2297990


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2298378 -

you're aiming towards interpretation again?

I've read through that entire thread and see nothing I would interpret as evidence of "God."

Please: Lay it on me


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Strumpling]
    #2298395 -

the "apprehending consciousness" is the closest thing that I could find,
but I'm pretty sure Ped was referring to humans.

Ped also goes into a thought process that seems to suggest some kind of prime mover later in the thread, but it doesn't really go anywhere and I can't see how it can be interpreted as actual evidence of God.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2298414 -

ah-HA, though!

"actual evidence" doesn't necessarily mean "philosophical evidence" and vice versa..

People already said it in this thread, "philosophical" evidence of God is all around us.

Doesn't mean its actual evidence, and doesn't prove "God"


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Strumpling]
    #2298453 -

yeah well that's the problem with "philosophical evidence"

"philosophical evidence" once put an unmoving earth at the center of the universe with the heavens revolving around us...

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2298497 -

Please tell us, and use small words so I can understand you.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Evolving]
    #2298591 -

putting it in words is something that people have been trying to do for all existance. It cannot be done...if it could be done...all that would exist would be words.

im trying to get an idea out but ....i just cant bring it to words lol....it just is because it is because it is


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Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2299143 -

Well, I almost agree that everything is philosophical evidence for the existence of God. Almost.

Philosophy is bullshit though. Anyone can make up any old story they want, call it philosophy, and they're diefied by desperate devotees/disciples. Look at Lao Tzu, Jung, these people made up a whole perspectives and they're looked at like sages.

I'd go so far as to say anyone who proselytizes dogma without empirical evidence for support is full of shit. There is no universal acquiescence for the observations of McKenna, or Christ, hell not everyone agrees about the world not being flat! Look at string theorists. THeir ideas are based on science, but without observable experiments their theories are reduces to philosophy.

The only philosophical evidence for the existence of God is "I believe in God." unfortunatly, that's not enough for a lot of people.

...but if you've got more that that, hell yes i wnat to hear it./


--------------------

We have to answer our own prayers

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2299151 -

Mr_Mushrooms said:
But the question is, does anyone want to see it? If this thread generates any interest at all I will unveil my evidence. Those that are uninterested need not reply.


I hope this isn't one of those boringly-familiar, "clever" acts of sophistry.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Sclorch]
    #2299163 -

I wonder if anybody's going to ever leave this thread feeling better about life


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: psyka]
    #2299349 -

psyka-its wierd that your avatar is a triskelion. in fact,in light of this thread,its personally very wierd. i had a dream,maybe a year or two ago,and in the dream i saw a dead cop face down in the road. as i walked towards his body i made a mental note that one of his arms was reaching out,and the index finger on the hand attached to that arm was pointing towards a symbol that was etched in the pavement wher his body lay. in the dream i went to look closer,and when i saw what was etched in the concrete i heard a voice say, 'thats the symbol of God'.  the symbol was a TRISKELION. luckily i woke up not to long after the dream and sketched the symbol.

i just thought it was wierd that i clicked on this thread and saw the 'avatar' :heartpump:


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either/or,and/or,both/and?

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: xasino]
    #2299576 -

"If you follow Ped's argument you will see a philosophical argument, that if interpreted in a certain way, constitutes a proof or evidence for the existence of God."

what?

okay heres a statement:

cats can read your mind

-now, if you interpet that in a certain way....it constitutes proof that jesus was a reptile.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2299606 -

check your pm!!!


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Sclorch]
    #2299719 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2299789 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2299833 -

gather 'round children
I'm about a lay an egg

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2301260 -

Now i know i haven't posted for a while but...If it was up to philosophical evidance i could make you belive that the crap i took this morning was the birth of a demon. And i could probably even found a religion with millions of followers based on the floating turd. Physical evidance is what we currently base existance on. Philosophical evidance cannot prove the existance of anything besides our active imagination.


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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2302612 -

Mr_Mushrooms said:
But the question is, does anyone want to see it? If this thread generates any interest at all I will unveil my evidence. Those that are uninterested need not reply.

Thank you.


Well, of course I am interested in the evidence!


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Frog]
    #2302691 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2302784 -

my grandfather on my mothers side once published a paper on a mathematical proof that god does not exist. i'll see if i can dig it up and scan it in for all of ya. i cant remember the name of the journal it was published in. given this was a while back, and the man was fairly psychotic.

well ill try to find it...

~JSLice~


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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2302829 -

You have generated interest in me. But answer me one question: Will somebody expecting definite proof be dissapointed?


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: David_Scape]
    #2303862 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2303971 -

I don't need evidence, but I'm curious to what you have to post.


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non-corporis being

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2304329 -

MM, are you talking about buttonion's "existence" thread?? And if so, don't post your evidence until I get a chance to read it and see if I can figure it out, if you don't mind. Maybe just until this afternoon?


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Frog]
    #2304774 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2309228 -

Okay, I haven't read the "existence" thread yet, but I think I see what you are talking about, and I don't think it's correct. But let me tell you what I think you're talking about first (after reading another thread, I think "Public Announcement")...

I found a nice discussion on how Godel's Theorum supports the existence of God. I, personally, agree that God exists, and I find valid the author's statements. However, Godel's theorum still doesn't absolutely prove that God exists. At the very least, the Theorum requires a huge leap in rational analysis.

I agree that the human mind can't possibly know all things. This means that there are things that may appear irrational and/or illogical to the human mind, that we can not understand, but that are not necessarily untrue simply because of our failure to be able to understand them.

But that also doesn't necessarily mean that those things are true! Godel's Theorum simply states "there are true statements in number theory, and by extension, any high-level formal system (e.g. logic), that cannot be known within the system." (Link below.)

There may be a God, or there may be aliens, or there may be nothing. We don't know! But just because we don't know what we don't know doesn't mean that those of us who believe in God, must be right!

God didn't leave us with a whole lot of physical proof, because He expects us to believe, based on simple "faith". How easy to believe if we have absolute proof! I guess you'd call it a little test, eh?

http://www.weichbrodt.org/text/godelmetalogic.html


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Frog]
    #2309271 -

I thought they were going to do something like that at first. But, after assesing Ped's position, i'm skeptical of it.
If it was me, i would've gone all "godel,escher and bach" on everybody. But that's just me.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Frog]
    #2309352 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: David_Scape]
    #2309356 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2309649 -

Mr_Mushrooms said:
There are articles of religious faith that cannot be proved or disproved by science and/or philosophy. Moreover, a distinction can be found between a theological God and a God derived at by natural examination, i.e. natural theology, a branch of philosophy.

In this proof I discovered we are concerning ourselves with God as an exnihilating preservative factor, not a God who forgives sin. And if you are thinking about introducing the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox into this discussion, don't. We are not at that point yet.


I take it that is a hint? Is that what I should be reading next? The Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Frog]
    #2309656 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2309661 -

Okay, I promise not to do another thing until I read buttonion's thread.  It's so difficult to refer to him as "buttonion" and keep a straight face.  :oogle:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! *DELETED* [Re: ]
    #2309906 -

Post deleted by brainlessjon

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! *DELETED* [Re: ]
    #2309915 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! *DELETED* [Re: ]
    #2309931 -

Post deleted by brainlessjon

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2309934 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2309941 -

A frog are a funny sort of bird.
Him don't hops, him sits.
And when him don't sits,
Him goes "tweet, tweet, tweet".


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2309953 -

peace with the MM man has been made. Even though I am skeptical about what he will prove.

Mr.Mushrooms

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2309960 -

There's no reason to get worked up over this...

Do you have any weed handy? Now would be a good time to smoke some.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! *DELETED* [Re: Evolving]
    #2309973 -

Post deleted by brainlessjon

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2309980 -

MM, which definition of God will you be addressing in your attempt to prove the existence of God?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! *DELETED* [Re: ]
    #2309983 -

Post deleted by trendal


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! *DELETED* [Re: trendal]
    #2310009 -

Post deleted by brainlessjon

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Evolving]
    #2310016 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2310025 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2310034 -

Mr_Mushrooms said:
as an exnihilating preservative factor


I'm sorry, but my dictionary collection isn't as extensive as yours. Could you please explain what this means.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Evolving]
    #2310070 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Evolving]
    #2310076 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2310078 -

Mr_Mushrooms said:
I really apologize. I forget when I use those words that not everyone knows them. I am not being a smart ass. They just have precise meanings.


I'm glad Evolving asked. I don't have that definition, either. I sort of side-stepped it.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2310089 -

Thanks, I did know what 'preservative' means, I just have never seen it in that context.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2310096 -

Now, I take it from your explanation that this does not necessarily imply a consciousness as an attribute. Am I correct?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Evolving]
    #2310100 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Evolving]
    #2310104 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2310121 -

Quote:
Mr_Mushrooms said:
You are asking for a lot, Evolving. :wink:


We're talking about all of creation, the universe... God, for Christ's sakes (no offense intended) - of course I'm asking for a lot!

Quote:
I specifically told someone, silversoul7 if I remember correctly, that I wasn't going to give out hints.


Several months ago he told me to mind my own business, I've honored that request and do not read replies that are addressed to him. :wink:

Quote:
The exnihilating preservative factor, has a consciousness.  It has to according to Ped's answer in that thread.


Thanks.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2310130 -

damnit mm will we get out with it already :wink:


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: kaiowas]
    #2310135 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2310381 -

Hey MM I think that you have us waiting on the edge of out rollie cairs....harty har har har

:smile:

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2316310 -

just as a note MR.M, i was'nt implying that i was skeptical of Ped's argument in that post.


As it so happens though, I Am :evil: .

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2322342 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2322379 -

Quote:
1. In order for matter to exist there has to be an apprehending consciousness.



Why?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2322433 -

that was really weak. I was actually expecting something substantial.
and it contains a recursive proof:

1. In order for matter to exist there has to be an apprehending consciousness.

2. The universe existed before man.

if there must be an apprehending consciousness for matter to exist, then the universe could not have existed before man, unless you're assuming that God exists, which is what you're trying to prove in the first place...

in other words, #2 can't be reconciled with #1, unless you assume that god exists.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2322624 -

Interesting, and I think I would tend to agree with you. I had just read this out of "The Field", the other day:

"One of the fundamental laws of quantum physics says that an event in the subatomic world exists in all possible states until the act of observing or measuring it 'freezes' it, or pins it down, to a single state.

This process is technically known as the collapse of the wave function, where 'wave function' means the state of all possibilities.

In Schmidt's mind, and the minds of many others, this was where quantum theory, for all its mathematical perfection, fell down.

Although nothing existed in a single state independently of an observer, you could describe what the observer sees, but not the observer himself.

You included the moment of observation in the mathematics, but not the consciousness doing the observing. There was no equation for an observer.

There was also the ephemeral nature of it all. Physicists couldn't offer any real information about any given quantum particle. All they could say with certainty was that when you took a certain measurement at a certain point, this is what you would find.

It was like catching a butterfly on the wing. Classical physics didn't have to talk about an observer; according to Newton's version of reality, a chair or even a planet was sitting there, whether or not we were looking at it. The world existed out there independently of us.

But in the strange twilight of the quantum world, you could only determine incomplete aspects of subatomic reality with an observer pinning down a single facet of the nature of an electron only at that moment of observation, not for all time.

According to the mathematics, the quantum world was a perfect hermetic world of pure potential, only made real - and, in a sense, less perfect - when interrupted by an intruder.

...

If the human observer settled an electron into a set state, to what extent did he or she influence reality on a large scale? The observer effect suggested that reality only emerged from a primordial soup like the Zero Point Field with the involvement of living consciousness.

The logical conclsuion was that the physical world only existed in its concrete state while we were involved in it. Indeed, Schmidt wondered, was it true that nothing existed independently of our perception of it?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Frog]
    #2322669 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2322738 -

I've been hoping someone would buy it and read it so there coud be some discussion of it.  Thanks.  :heart:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2323312 -

Yes, you are of course right. Assuming that God exists to prove that God exists is weak old hat. Next.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."
Aldous Huxley

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: muhurgle]
    #2323319 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2323324 -

I have no idea about Ped's argument, but your argument begs the question as infidelGod pointed out.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."
Aldous Huxley

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: muhurgle]
    #2323326 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2323328 -

Ok, are you ignoring infidelGod perhaps? He explains it quite eloquently further up in the thread.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."
Aldous Huxley

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: muhurgle]
    #2323332 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: muhurgle]
    #2323342 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2323348 -

Hehe. Sorry, no composing, I was just out for a minute. Unignore InfidelGod and you can read his post if you want to. I don't want to be part in any game between you and him :wink:

His point is rather glaring btw.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."
Aldous Huxley

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: muhurgle]
    #2323354 -

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2323491 -

I understand your perspective and I think they just want the logic to be slightly rephrased. As you have already acknowledged, your logic is assumative based on the presupposition that the universe was existant prior to the first conscious man.

If matter must be conceived to exist and if the universe existed before conscious man, there must have been another consciousness to conceive the universe for it to have existed.

He is saying your logic only proves that there could have been no universe before the first conscious man, unless you give arise to a need for a pre-existant conciousness (ie. assumption that the universe did exist before man).

Of course, even if the universe did not exist before the first conscious man, according the this theory of existance a consciousness must have existed to conceive of the conscious man in the first place, which then feeds into your logic. Either this theory of existance is wrong, or the pre-consciousness which conceived of the conscious man in the first place is infinite and therefore not subject to needing to be pre-conceived.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2323529 -

I GET IT NOW!!!

I think you're right! That's it! What a brilliant conclusion! Who's is it, anyways??? Yours? Peds?

Of course if the universe already existed, someone must have created it. God is the only consciousness that has been around since the "beginning".

Okay, where is Ped's discussion? Is that in the "existence" thread? The thread that I still haven't read? I wish people would stop adding to it. It's becoming quite intimidating to open.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2323574 -

This just sounds like the same old: "something can't come from nothing" debate, which- I thought- has already been proven wrong, as matter can be created in a vacuum.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2323597 -

But someone had to be around to create the matter, right?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Frog]
    #2323633 -

Not create the matter per se, but rather in this scenario simply the matter must have been comprehended in order to exist.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Frog]
    #2323819 -

No, that's the point of the vacuum theory- which last I heard they're having problems with- that matter can spontaneously form in a vacuum of nothing.

JPOD:

How come the matter has to be comprehended in order to exist? I don't understand this point. Are you talking about some consciousness outside of the matter observing it (because Quantum Theory says matter has to be observed to exist in a certain perception), or the matter having consciousness of itself?

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2323900 -

Mr. Mushrooms speaking within the terms of the theories contained within Ped's posts on existence based in this thread:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...sb=5&o=&fpart=1

In very reductive terms, it says that something does not exist without being apprehended by an external consciousness. You should definitely read the reasoning behind this, Ped explains his thoughts very well.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: jpod]
    #2324046 -

here's what I saw at least, I hope this doesn't become repetative, but in order for me to respond, I think a quick review of the thread (for myself) is in order. these are snippets and only to be taken as such



ped said in the beginning



"Ultimate truth tells us that nothing exists independent of mind."



in which mm responded with a quote from plato..



"Anything which possesses any sort of power to affect another, or to be affected by another, if only for a single moment, however trifling the cause and however slight the effect, has real existence."



ped used the examples of coffee. he analysed it down the the molecules and then said this



"What if we removed just one carbon bond? Is this atom ortho-terphenyl? Of course it is not. It must follow then, that we can remove the rest of the carbon atoms, because none of them are themselves ortho-terphenyl. But before we even remove half of them, our molecule has disintegrated! Why is this happening? Because the existence of a molecule is a phenomona existing in dependence upon parts.



If a molecule, or any object were inherently existent, it must exist independently of it's parts. An object that exists in dependence upon parts can only exist inherently with the presence of an apprehending conciousness to assign it inherent existence. If we divide all the parts upon which an object is dependent, we find that there is no object remaining at all. This means that even the molecules, atoms, and energies which comprise our universe are not themselves inherently existent."



trendal then said "it may not be a "coffee cup" without my consciousness but it still would be a physical object (I think).



ped replied with



"I extended this demonstration into the realm of fundamental particles, including quarks, electrons and so forth. These supposed elementary particles exist in the same way as the conventional objects that we interact with: in dependence upon other phenomenon. For an object or elementary partical to have inherent physical existence, it must exist discretely and totally seperate of all other phenomena."



so what I gather from this is that in order for ideas and physical objects to exist, it must be seperate from everything else. the more we break things down, we only come up with smaller parts of a large puzzle.



alan stone's question cam up was



"So you view external stimuli as the mind's projection of received energy? A hologram created by the brain using neurological input?"



and ped said..



Something similar to this, yes. "Loud" and "Bright" are opinions, but we do not experience "Loud" and "Bright" as though we had an opinion of them. If somebody drops a vase and we hear a sound that disturbs us, we think "That was a very loud sound." But if we're at a rock concert and dissatisfied with the quality of the audio, even sounds many times greater in volume than a fallen vase may be dissatisfactory, and we may think "The sound is much too quiet." We experience either of these circumstances as though that's how they actually were, ignoring the reality that either of these are phenomena dependent upon a circumstantial basis.



the circumstantial basis is what I look at. this to me shows how our mind does in fact shape our own reality and this is how we experience.



i found this to be helpful to me as well



strumpling asked-



What has happened here? Has objective reality changed since the creator is no longer around? is that possible?



ped-



No, it is not possible. An objective reality must be an unchanging reality. Since there is no unchanging reality, there is no objective reality. Reality is entirely subjective.



ped mentioned the koan if the tree falls in the woods...



here's where I got stuck when ped said



"As I had said earlier: Existence serves as the condition upon which conciousness thrives, and conciousness serves as the condition upon which existence thrives.



We seem to have no qualms with the notion of removing concious subjects from the plain of existence, and imagining that existence would continue on into endless time. However, if we were to contemplate removing the existential plain from experiential conciousness, we encounter a thick and hazy fog. It is unfathomable. Why this double standard?



so now we come to a point where the mechanism or the way consciousness needs to be defined.



ped then says



"It is the self-grasping mind which encounters an object and informs us that it exists apart from us, that it has been "waiting" for us to encounter it. Boundries in space are equally as necessary in time if we are to perpetuate the deliciously seductive habit of self-grasping. Space and time too are dependent upon mind -- but not the self-grasping mind that we so readily identify with. Boundries and distinctions are what depend on the self-grasping mind. Dissolve the self-grasping mind, and we dissolve boundries and distinctions.



this is all in support for this...



"As ordinary human beings, our experience is mistaken because we hold two mistaken views:



1. The mistaken view that objects exist discretely from eachother.

2. The mistaken view that objects exist from their own side, discretely from the self.



These two mistaken views validate eachother. If our experience informs us that there are many unique physical entities existing upon a constant plain of space and time, then it follows that we are also a unique entity existing discretely among other unique entities. By the same token, if our experience informs us that we are a totally independent entity existing apart from all other objects, it follows that all of these objects must exist entirely apart from eachother.



If we were to reform either of these views, the other view must reorient itself to support our new experience. For example, if we were to reach an understanding that all phenomena are only nominally distinct and are entirely interconnected and interdependent, we would find ourselves in conflict with the view that we ourselves exist discretely, independently. This is logically detailed, step by step, with the following five points



"2. Through investigation, we discover that all phenomenon are dependent upon other phenomenon.

3. If all phenomenon are dependent upon other phenomenon, no observed phenomenon can be truly distinct.

4. By opposing the appearance of boundries between observed phenomenon, the consequence must be the dissolution of the boundries between self and other.

5. Therefore, if we conceive of boundries between self and other, the consequence must be the appearance of boundries between observed phenomena."



so there is a unity between all things...



which leads me to here mm



"If, through investigation, we obliterate the existence of objects through the application of various reasonings, yet continue to conceive of ourselves as inherently existent, we encounter the intellectual extreme which concludes nothing to exist at all. Though, if in conjunction with our investigation we continously conclude thruogh the same reasoning that objects cannot exist inherently, we must understand that there is an intimate relationship between the existence of an object and the presence of apprehending conciousness, an observer. This is the pivot upon which inherent existence and non-existence swing.



fianlly ped says



"phenomena existing in dependence upon basis of imputation, and therefore cannot inherently exist."



if this is so then how could there not be a god? is my reasoning flawed?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: kaiowas]
    #2324119 -

If a molecule, or any object were inherently existent, it must exist independently of it's parts.

There is one flaw.

Another is that existence depends upon a naming convention. If all humans suddenly died from a viral epidemic, a chair might no longer be a chair, but it's height, weight and mass would remain unchanged even without someone here to verify that data. I seriously doubt that objects disappear when I leave the room and reappear when I enter.

Does ANYONE here TRULY believe that when we see the light from a supernova for the first time, that it simultaneously came into being just because we are now observing it? Or that it actually exploded hundeds of millions of years ago (and existed if even not called a supernova) and we are just now seeing the light from it?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: kaiowas]
    #2324134 -

I don't see how this can be considered evidence for the existence of a god.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Swami]
    #2324243 -

I think, at least for the room example, the people that believe in this argument would say that your observing the room has now made it definite for everyone else, and the builders who originally built the room- their observing of the process (and belief in the process) has cemented that room into this shared matrix like reality.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: muhurgle]
    #2324666 -

Please re-read the forum rules, especially #2...

Edited by trendal (02/11/04 04:20 PM)

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2324726 -

I think you better go back and read Ped's argument. The first premise doesn't assume God exists.
Next.

this is really stupid. take off your blinders.
it's the SECOND premise that assumes God exists

the first premise:
In order for matter to exist there has to be an apprehending consciousness.

IF THIS PREMISE IS TAKEN TO BE TRUE, the second premise - The universe existed before man - CANNOT be true unless you ASSUME that god exists.
this is simple LOGIC. the argument is recursive and it's internally inconsistent.
-the second premise is predicated on the presupposition that God exists, which is what you're trying to prove in the first place.

the sad thing is, this is the kind of BS is that passes for "philosophical evidence"...

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2324740 -

Please re-read the forum rules, especially #2...

Edited by trendal (02/11/04 04:21 PM)

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2325007 -

Here's what I think (but feel free to correct me wrong, as always).

Quote:
1. In order for matter to exist there has to be an apprehending consciousness.


Agreed. Matter is the "suchness" (Istigkeit) of energy. "Suchness" in this context is the totality of observable qualities - of all characteristics of the energy that can be tasted, felt, smelled, heard or seen. The suchness doesn't exist without the apprehending consciousness.

Quote:
2. The universe existed before man.


Energy existed before mankind came around. Even this is an assumtion, because there is no means of verifying this. But the "suchness" of the energy (matter with its observable qualities) didn't exist without doubt, because when we cannot be sure that what we all call "green" isn't observed by one person as "red" and as "blue" by yet another. There are no absolutes in observation.

The universe is the combination of the totality of suchness and the energy itself. Without suchness, "the universe" is reduced from universe to boundless, amorphous blob of energy. As proven before, the suchness of the energy has to be observed in order for matter to exist. Conclusion: "the universe" didn't exist before life came around, because conscious creatures are needed to apprehend the suchness of the energy.
Energy can be there without being apprehended. Simple example: the invisible bio-electric field around our own brains.

This, to me is where the flaw lies: the premise that matter existed before mankind came around. It's a perfectly logical thing to assume, just like we assume we're a seperate entity from the rest of the world.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2325801 -

Yes, perhaps the universe was created by man.
We limit ourselves (and our minds) into this little entity called earth, and we attribute the unknown, much like our brains, to "outer space."

I have not made much sense of it yet, but it is a key puzzle piece! :eyemouth:


--------------------
Fold for The Shroomery!

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: Swami]
    #2332912 -

Swami gots a point, don't you guys think?


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: David_Scape]
    #2332954 -

Don't know.  Haven't seen it yet.  :devil:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: ]
    #2332981 -

Even if god came down and showed itself to the world it still won't change the situtation your soul is in. It might make people ACT nicer, and it might make people ACT eviler, but getting into heaven is still going to be just as hard. So why the big deal about needing proof of god? You're either heaven material or you're not.


--------------------
Everything in this post happened 7 years ago. If you do not feel good get a hobby like r/c airplane flying.

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Re: I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God! [Re: timetravel]
    #2333037 -

Quote:
So why the big deal about needing proof of god?




It comes in handy during tax season.


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----

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