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Anonymous

An interesting ritual...?.....
    #868123 - 09/07/02 01:15 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

This seems a little too....hmmm. Well I let you decide.
Ritual


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ]
    #868131 - 09/07/02 01:56 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Freak ass monkey people.


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(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


Don't vibe my harsh, bro.


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Offlinepimpadelic
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ]
    #868872 - 09/07/02 02:12 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Damn! Now that is fucked up! :confused: 


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OfflineViBrAnT
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: pimpadelic]
    #868967 - 09/07/02 03:41 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

oh my god these people need help, keep them in your prayers that they may rise above their illusions.


--------------------
" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "




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Anonymous

Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ]
    #869012 - 09/07/02 04:12 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Give me that ol' time Eastern religion, yeah!  So full  of light, so full of love.  :mad:

I'll be sure to remind somebody of this the next time I hear some idiot talk about how great Eastern Mysticism is.  :smirk:

Not Cheered, 


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #869333 - 09/07/02 07:10 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

oh my god these people need help, keep them in your prayers that they may rise above their illusions.

Prayer is an illusion as crazy as the Pakistani's hoping their wishes will come true. Your ritual is different, but the underlying premise is just as false.




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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Swami]
    #869561 - 09/07/02 06:32 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Swami, how can you say that the underlying premise of prayer is false? I assure you that nothing I say or do can prove that God or prayer exists nor can you disprove it. That is fine if you wont believe without scientific evidence but it also works against you since you too have no scientific evidence to disprove. To be true to your ways as a believer in science, agnosticism would suit you better than atheism.


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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OfflineViBrAnT
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: chemkid]
    #869613 - 09/07/02 08:26 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

just for clarifying purposes here swami, you must hold some degree of support for this ritual otherwise there would be no reason to attack my optimistic approach to the situation, either that or your stuck so far in disbelief you cant look past the front door of your house without questioning its aspect of reality.


--------------------
" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "




Edited by ViBrAnT (09/07/02 08:35 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: chemkid]
    #869830 - 09/08/02 05:03 AM (19 years, 15 days ago)

Prayer as best I understand can be divided into three main types:

1. An expression of gratitude & humility
2. A conversation with a diety
3. A petition for guidance, goods or healing.

Swami, how can you say that the underlying premise of prayer is false?

1. Neither works nor doesn't work, it is a one-sided action.

2. I have not experienced any interaction and many of those that claim to have a direct line frequently do evil acts or claim superiority in God's name.

3. This is the most common interpretation of prayer and there is no evidence of it bringing about any desired result.

No difference between praying and not praying means that the underlying premise is false.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #869854 - 09/08/02 05:13 AM (19 years, 15 days ago)

just for clarifying purposes here swami, you must hold some degree of support for this ritual
They bury children to get God to acquiesce to their wishes, while you do your prayer ritual (get on knees, bow head, fold hands...?) to get God to acquiesce to your wishes.

You see your ritual of prayer to get God to show them how ridiculous their form of prayer is. Do you really see no irony in this? *sigh* Probably not.

otherwise there would be no reason to attack my optimistic approach to the situation,
Optimistic? You are doing the same thing as they are, trying to influence events through some form of mumbo-jumbo.

either that or your stuck so far in disbelief you cant look past the front door of your house without questioning its aspect of reality.
What are you trying to accomplish with this type of statement?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Swami]
    #869903 - 09/08/02 05:42 AM (19 years, 15 days ago)

*sigh*

Well I had a great reply written up but the computer ate it. Now I am too lzay to repeat it. Maybe later.

Cheers,


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OfflineViBrAnT
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ]
    #869960 - 09/08/02 11:26 AM (19 years, 15 days ago)

what am i trying to accomplish?

absolutely nothing

Anything that doesnt fit into your paradigm of thinking you refuse to even grant it possible truth, i personally thought the statement was quite straight forward.

Do i see the irony swami, no. I see one form of prayer rooted in fear and another in love.

I think that we should try a prayer chain in this forum, because to tell you the truth i havnt had so many prayers answered in all my life as in the last couple of months.


--------------------
" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "




Edited by ViBrAnT (09/08/02 11:41 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #869997 - 09/08/02 11:48 AM (19 years, 15 days ago)

because to tell you the truth i havnt had so many prayers answered in all my life as in the last couple of months.

And what of the people who's prayers are not answered? Are you special? Do you have a sure-fire technique?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Swami]
    #870016 - 09/08/02 11:58 AM (19 years, 15 days ago)

I think prayer is more of a strengthening of the will by the "higher self" or soul. I think it's possible to pray to seperate beings but the possibility of them actually answering back is pretty slim. We should all just learn to pray (and have faith) in our soul. And I think this is actually what alot of religious people do when they pray to "God", they just don't realize maybe that we are a part of God so therfore when you pray to God you are praying to your Source, or soul... not some being that lives in the clouds who listens for people to say his name and comes down to grant them their wishes.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Swami]
    #870029 - 09/08/02 12:05 PM (19 years, 15 days ago)

Swami, you still have not answered (sufficiently) my question. I am not trying to get you to believe in God....I am trying to get you to see your error. While I freely admit that I can not prove the existence of God....surely you can admit that you can not disprove his existence. You may think I am silly to believe and that is fine. But from a purely scientific point of view there is no evidence of his "non-existence". This is why I say you would be better suited as an agnostic than an atheist. To choose atheism shows your propensity toward inobjectivity which negates all your replies that are so called based on science or evidence.

You mentioned that prayer doesn't work....according to what studies? Have you done an exhaustive study on all people for all prayers for all religions?

For the record....(according to my belief....christianity)....all prayers are answered. It just might not be the answer you were hoping for. So if I pray for a new car and don't receive one...did God ignore my prayer? No, he simply said no or maybe wait a little longer. (I don't know the nature of God). You probably think this is a convenient method to account for the lack of answers to prayers from a non-existent God. That is fine. But I have proven that I am more open minded by the ability to believe in something that I can not see where you have shut out all possibilities.

To be a true scientist Swami you would be better suited as an AGNOSTIC.

Peace......by the way I like your methods of debate!!


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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Anonymous

Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #870061 - 09/08/02 12:23 PM (19 years, 15 days ago)

Please respond to me when you address me. Your post was to Swami, not me.

Thank you.


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OfflineViBrAnT
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ]
    #870113 - 09/08/02 12:58 PM (19 years, 15 days ago)

I am special swami and so are you and everyone else. I have simply moved away from requirement, therefore i am living my prayers everyday, and not only has this become a truth for me but at times now i am recieving direct communication from God or higher-self through imagery and emotion, once you set aside the need for abundance it begins to pour in, figure that out. what i have also noticed is as i am teaching another i am learning new things as i go along, trips me out everytime, These are the answered prayers i spoke of, and this is why i am here on this site, to become both the student and the teacher. If i know you swami you will see a contradiction between the prayer chain and what i have just described, however all i wish to accomplish with the prayer chain is to create a more positive energy field, a little love never hurt anything, hey and with the purist intentions you just never know. whenever i come from the purist intentions good things have always come out of the situation even if the desired result was not attained.

I dont care if you believe me which is quite probable but i must repeat this:

" take me, i am the drug, take me, i am hallucinogenic ", this is the best quote i ever ever come across, i really needed to hear that from a master Adamist, i thank you kindly.



--------------------
" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "




Edited by ViBrAnT (09/08/02 01:13 PM)


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #870119 - 09/08/02 01:02 PM (19 years, 15 days ago)

Yeah I know its a cliche thing to say but Salvador Dali was a genius... Try reading some of his writings.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Anonymous

Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #870405 - 09/08/02 09:11 PM (19 years, 15 days ago)

I am not Swami!!!!

Are you high again?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ]
    #870563 - 09/08/02 10:36 PM (19 years, 14 days ago)

I am not Swami!!!!

Gee, how come I never get to be Swami anymore...


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #870576 - 09/08/02 10:42 PM (19 years, 14 days ago)

I am special swami and so are you and everyone else.
Everyone by definition cannot be special. Semantics aside, you have had prayers answered, I knowlingly have not. Therefore:

A. God likes you better.
B. You have a better methodolgy.
C. I wouldn't know an answered prayer if it fell on my lap.
D. Prayer is useless superstition.

As I have no way of determining A-C unless someone can point it out to me; I must go with D.

hey and with the purist intentions you just never know. whenever i come from the purist intentions good things have always come out of the situation ...
How do you know the Pakistani ritual is not done with the purist of intentions?




--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (09/08/02 11:32 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: chemkid]
    #870584 - 09/08/02 10:47 PM (19 years, 14 days ago)

For the record....(according to my belief....christianity)....all prayers are answered. It just might not be the answer you were hoping for.

Nothing personal chem, but that line just makes me want to puke. When my girlfriend (a devout Christian) prayed everyday for her daughter's mental health for years, spent every dollar, cried every tear, bled every drop and her daughter died anyway, disrupted way too many lives - I guess you would have to say that might not be the answer hoped for.

So what was the point in praying?

A difference that makes no difference is no difference!


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Swami]
    #870623 - 09/08/02 11:20 PM (19 years, 14 days ago)

You make me laugh and sigh that is why you are one of my favorite members here among so many good ones.

If I weren't so caught up in a psychosexual drama right now I would reply with substance.

Ok ok, please be Swami for a little while until I regain my balance.

After that I'll take over again. Slacker.


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Swami]
    #870859 - 09/09/02 01:27 AM (19 years, 14 days ago)

Swami, I have read many of your posts and take you to be an intelligent person, that being said, surely you see that this statement of yours is ridiculous. You are saying that it made no difference. How in the world could you even begin to know it made no difference. Maybe the prayer made her stronger and better able to handle the situation. Maybe her death has forever changed someone that will be a world leader someday. (There are infinite examples like these) You can't know the nature of God and therefore his reasoning for allowing her little girls death (sorry by the way). Through death has come many a splendid thing. You mention disrupted lives....is that always to the detriment of those disrupted????Of course not. This is what forces growth and a better understanding of ourselves and others.

For the sake of this argument, let's assume for a minute that God exists (you with me)....O.K. if he does exist then death of the human body, while rough on us left behind, is simply a transition to another existence that is far better and far beyond our comprehension. So looking at it like that, our meager human existence is nothing to relish and hold onto.

Now let's get back to reality.....GOD has neither been proven or disproven. I am still waiting for you to reply to my question Swami.......as a man of evidence and science (at least that's how I pin you down from your posts), surely you can see that your closed mindedness toward the existence of something that has not been disproven shows your lack of objectivity. So.......do you not agree that you would be better suited to at least be agnostic until one side or the other was proven? It makes for better science.


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: chemkid]
    #870939 - 09/09/02 02:07 AM (19 years, 14 days ago)

...surely you see that this statement of yours is ridiculous.
Nice start to a conversation.

How in the world could you even begin to know it made no difference.
I am intuiting that that is a question. You actually have it backwards. With zero feedback from God, how can I possibly know that prayer works? It obviously did not work from the point of view of those praying, irregardless of God's plan.

For the sake of this argument, let's assume for a minute that God exists (you with me)...
No, I am a total retard. Please explain "assumtpion".

O.K. if he does exist then death of the human body, while rough on us left behind, is simply a transition to another existence that is far better and far beyond our comprehension. So looking at it like that, our meager human existence is nothing to relish and hold onto.
This has nothing to do with the efficacy of prayer. No tangents please.

I am still waiting for you to reply to my question Swami.......as a man of evidence and science (at least that's how I pin you down from your posts), surely you can see that your closed mindedness toward the existence of something that has not been disproven shows your lack of objectivity.
It seems you know little of logic and objectivity. (Prove that I can't levitate when no one is looking.) This is pure silliness and has nothing to do with close-mindedness. I am willing to examine ALL facts critically. That is an open-mind. However, there are no facts to examine.

So.......do you not agree that you would be better suited to at least be agnostic until one side or the other was proven? It makes for better science.
I really call myself neither agnostic nor atheist, those are just convenient catagorical labels. Science does not consider anything for which there are no facts nor evidence.




--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Swami]
    #871022 - 09/09/02 02:46 AM (19 years, 14 days ago)

Wow Swami, anger doesn't become you. I can't believe this stupid post has upset you so. But since you want to make little sarcastic witticisms then let me be the first to tell you that there is no such word as irregardless....regardless is sufficient. As I said in a previos post "I like your methods of debate" , well if this the new methodology of your debating then I must retract my statement.

I wasn't saying "are you with me" as in can you comprehend this, rather that you probably don't like to assume God exists simply for the sake of debate, so I was urging you to indulge me for a few minutes.

In reply to:

It seems you know little of logic and objectivity




Why, because I don't hold the same view as you? You think it be illogical to believe in a higher power? That is fine but you shouldn't be so judgemental. The fact that I believe says nothing about my faculties for debate, logic, or objectivity.

In reply to:

I am willing to examine ALL facts critically. That is an open-mind. However, there are no facts to examine.





If there are no facts to examine then what are all these accounts from people claiming to know there is a God? I am not saying it is a fact that there is a God but it is a fact that they are claiming it to be so.....therefore it should be examined. You negate this though. Human, subjective claims are just as worthy for investigation as any other source of information. When you get right to it......all science is based on human claims at one point. The laws of thermodynamics weren't always laws....at one point someone made a claim that there is something interesting going on here and after many observations that withstood the test of time...they became laws.

In reply to:

Science does not consider anything for which there are no facts nor evidence




That is a gross untruth. If science never considered anything that wasn't a fact how would novel discoveries or approaches to science be discovered.

People before Galileo "knew" that the earth was the center of the universe. Galileo considered something outside these "known" facts and dispelled these myths. Science prides itself on stepping outside the box and considering the unconsidered. As a scientist myself, if I never considered anything other than that which was already proven......then a scientist I am not!!!

As for not calling yourself an atheist or agnostic.....Touche.....point taken. We shouldn't put ourselves in a box like that. That destroys the objectivity I claim to want to uphold. I will cease to try to label you....fair enough???


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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Offlinewrestler_az
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Swami]
    #871064 - 09/09/02 03:30 AM (19 years, 14 days ago)

ok, i havent read all the posts in this thread, so if im just repeating something already said, sorry.....some of these posts are too long for my drug induced lazy eyes :grin:


anyway, i just had a thought id like to add to this whole debate on prayer going on. now weather it works or not, im not sure and that isnt the point im addressing.

as someone said earlier in the thread, all prayers are answered, just some get a no for an answer. i disagree with that, and feel that according to the christian religion, some prayers are ignored by the christian god.....k, ill explain:

so god supposedly gave us free will right? that is, we can do as we please, worship him, or some other diety, or perhaps no one at all......so i find it hard to believe that christians worshiping this god that gave us this free will, will have the nerve to ask him for a new car..... that i believe would fall under the free will part(go get a job and buy it) this goes the same to all the people who cry "why could god LET this happen?" i dont think it is his place to keep things from happening, or ALLOWING others to. that is again, our area.... we make things happen, and allow others, as per our free will to do as we please, kinda like gods little loop hole.....so when someone prays to him....help me get better, his responce is(should have prevented yourself from getting sick) and when someone prays, i need a new car, his responce is get a new job, get my point? why do we as a whole lean so heavilly on god? he made it possible for you to help yourself, so do it. stop trying to take the easy way out.....anyway, thats my two cents :grin: 


--------------------
how's your WOW?





  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: chemkid]
    #871147 - 09/09/02 04:44 AM (19 years, 14 days ago)

Wow Swami, anger doesn't become you.
Jesus used anger when appropriate.

But since you want to make little sarcastic witticisms then let me be the first to tell you that there is no such word as irregardless
Thank you for educating me.

from dictionary.com

ir?re?gard?less Pronunciation Key (r-g?rdls)
adv. Nonstandard
Regardless.

In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems you know little of logic and objectivity
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why, because I don't hold the same view as you? You think it be illogical to believe in a higher power? That is fine but you shouldn't be so judgemental. The fact that I believe says nothing about my faculties for debate, logic, or objectivity.

Nice rant, but nothing judgemental nor a statement about your beliefs. A negative cannot be proven as you ascertain - this is a basic fact of debate and logic. Do some research.

If there are no facts to examine then what are all these accounts from people claiming to know there is a God? I am not saying it is a fact that there is a God but it is a fact that they are claiming it to be so.....therefore it should be examined.
How do I examine what is going on in someone's head? From the 911 bombers directed by God to the Catholics and Protestant Irish that kill each other to the Son of Sam that was told by God to kill people. Please explain how this is evidence of anything except delusion?

Human, subjective claims are just as worthy for investigation as any other source of information.
They are worthy as a starting point when more research can be done. I have attempted more research than any other member on this board, but all claims fell flat.

The laws of thermodynamics weren't always laws....at one point someone made a claim that there is something interesting going on here and after many observations that withstood the test of time...they became laws.
So my two years of research with praying for my girlfriend's daughter did not count? This is real-world lab testing. What type of research do you suggest?

That is a gross untruth. If science never considered anything that wasn't a fact how would novel discoveries or approaches to science be discovered.
Small facts are gathered and a larger hypothesis is suggested based upon them, then rigidly tested.

People before Galileo "knew" that the earth was the center of the universe.
JUst like you know that prayer is a valid ritual.

Galileo considered something outside these "known" facts and dispelled these myths.
Yes, he started with smaller facts as I stated above. It is detective work, start with the pieces then try to make a coherent picture.

Science prides itself on stepping outside the box and considering the unconsidered. As a scientist myself, if I never considered anything other than that which was already proven......then a scientist I am not!!!
FYI - more than one exclamation point is considered grammatically incorrect. What this has to do with ritual and prayer is beyond me. What exactly is there to consider? I do not believe you to be a scientist as you stated that a negative can be proven, which is a falsehood.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: wrestler_az]
    #871151 - 09/09/02 04:48 AM (19 years, 14 days ago)

...stop trying to take the easy way out...

Thank you for your enlightening and compassionate remarks. Spending every last dollar, every free moment while being drained emotionally and praying to stop a loved one from self-destructing is certainly "taking the easy way out".


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Offlinewrestler_az
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Swami]
    #871163 - 09/09/02 05:04 AM (19 years, 14 days ago)

my remark was not to be take litterally by you, but by the person who wanted a new car..... i guess you missed my point, my point was that even god is not ALL powerfull, and its not necessarilly that he wont answer all prayers(even though as i already said in some instances this might be the case) but simply he CANT. if he could forcefully cure your loved one of the ilness aquired, then why didnt he stop the terroists from crashing into our towers, killing thousands? and while hes at it, why not just keep every war from starting, every disease from killing, and every bad and hatefull thought from ever manifesting? do you kinda get my point yet? i think it is not gods place to "save" our lives here on this earth, i dont think he can.....even he has to abide by the rules nature set out.....its just not possible to go and keep everything bad from happening and i dont see the point in wasting our time praying about it....


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how's your WOW?





  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


Edited by wrestler_az (09/09/02 05:10 AM)


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Offlinewrestler_az
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Swami]
    #871172 - 09/09/02 05:24 AM (19 years, 14 days ago)

and another thing, my origonal point was meat to the person who leans on god to take care of them and not do a damn thing for themselves. spending every last dollar, while being drained emotionally doesnt sound like taking the easy way out.... your right, but if you were to only pray, and not do anything to compliment this, then hold god accountable fo rthis persons death, then i would say to you, stop trying to take the easy way out.......its just there are so many of those "why would god ALLOW a thing like this" i think they got it all wrong......


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how's your WOW?





  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Swami]
    #871231 - 09/09/02 07:41 AM (19 years, 14 days ago)

Because YOU say that prayer doesn't work, means that prayer isn't operating in YOUR life. All the categorical forms of prayer have operated in my life for decades - some results were so specific to my petition, that it became practically impossible to doubt the Intervention. The only question that yet remains for me is philosophical with regard to how the Divine Will operates. For example: 1) Did I precognitively ascertain what the future was to be, and construe the predestined reality to be my desire? No, the desire was based upon years of interest before a petition was made. 2) Did I make a request to God, and He simply arranged the local universe for ME? No. God is not my errand boy. 3) Was there an acausal (synchronistic) relationship between my subjective wish and objective reality? Yes, but this only results in amazement, not understanding. There are other possibilities, but I'll not bore you.

Now, I am referring here, howsoever vaguely, to one powerful experience that I had with regard to petitionary prayer. I'd share the details, but only through a PM. Prayers of Thanksgiving are for me, wonderful, even ecstatic spontaneous moments wherein all is well in the world. No fear. No anxiety. Blessed sense of well-being that extends to all from my Heart.

I have made intecessory prayers for my Father, undergoing surgery, as well as for others. Of course the positive outcome cannot be proven empirically, yet when one Believes in God, and Knows God in the sense of intuitive, faith-based, or experiential Knowledge (Gnosis), one is rooted in That Reality and prayer occurs spontaneously. One is way past thinking about prayer as an idea or a possibility- one communicates through the medium of Spirit, which is Consciousness itself. Like the Biblical symbol of the fish - IXTHYOS - 'In God we live and move and have our being.' Water=Spirit=Consciousness symbolism.

Of course Contemplative Prayer, called Meditation in the East, has been part of me before I considered myself to be Christian at all. As my Religious Experience of Life changed, so did the coloration of my contemplations, as did the nature of my Trances (samadhis, jhanas).

Putting your toe into the 'Stream' is not going to show you how this world-view operates. One must 'immerse' oneself in the world-view, take the plunge, make the experiment. It is the true Baptism, not just the outer form of it. Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ]
    #871244 - 09/09/02 07:52 AM (19 years, 14 days ago)

Be advised that the practice of Sati - self-immolation of wives on their husband's funeral pyres (other article on same page) is a voluntary act of devotion. I for one am appalled by it, but it is similar to Buddhist monks who burned themselves in demonstration during the Vietnam War.

The ritual here disclosed may not be more than political propaganda of Muslims against Hindus (look at the other article about Hindus burning Muslims); or, it may be more demonic Hindu practices like the burning of girls who cannot be married off (the technical name escapes me.) This is a Pakistani, Muslim paper. Hatred for Hindus abounds. These atrocities, if they occurred, should not be generalized to an entire culture. Remember, Hinduism is not a single religion - there are hundreds of sects and thousands of practices, not all dedicated to a loving and benevolent God. Shoot...watch the film 'India Jones and the Temple of Doom' to get even a fictional account of the Kali worshippers and Thugees (whence our word 'thug').


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Anonymous

Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #871284 - 09/09/02 09:02 AM (19 years, 14 days ago)

Well done, not that you need an affirmation from me.  This is in response to your response to Swami.  I won't know what answer he will give you but by his testimony he did immerse himself in it when he was involved with the little girl's life or at least he witnessed someone who did.  All for naught.  I have no ready answers for experiences like that, or at least ones I would publicly declare.

As far as the newspaper is concerned your comments are noted.  Yet that does not dissuade me from categorizing Eastern Mysticism of all stripes as just a bunch of hooey.  I sometimes paint so broadly that I use a roller instead of a broad brush! :grin:

I have a little experience in this.  I was once a Mystic.

Cheers for reason and raw naked skepticism, 


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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Swami]
    #871292 - 09/09/02 09:09 AM (19 years, 14 days ago)

You are right, and i agree.

There is no god, and praying is only a state generated to make the pain go away.
Its like the frase 'think of something nice' says the nurse as the docter starts resetting your leg..  :grin: 


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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #871302 - 09/09/02 09:21 AM (19 years, 14 days ago)

markos: thanks for pointing that out. the article was in paknews.com, and pakistanis and indians do not thave the best relationship. in fact, it is customary in pakistani media(state controlled) to flame indian culture and so on. this occurence was horrible and unfortunately, things like this still happen in rural areas. it is
a primitive ritual, not having as much to do with the true seeking that is present in hinduism (ref: vedas, upanishads etc)
also, please visit this link: http://www.indian-express.com/full_story.php?content_id=8068
and see that the allegation of the children being "burnt alive" is grossly untrue. just another cooked up story by the wonderful pakistani media.

as for prayer : swami, there are things beyond what we can percieve with our senses. attachment to a prayers result and intense desire for it does not bring about the result. in fact it has the opposite effect. just wondering, have you ever tried meditation?

peace all
lk


--------------------
The future is uncertain
And the end is always near.
James Douglas Morrison.


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ]
    #871310 - 09/09/02 09:26 AM (19 years, 14 days ago)

Lets not be so quick to judge, we have here in the west people that handle snakes and get crucified in the name of the lord.
Who knows maybe the ritual is a way to teach you about death, to experienced it.
It could be a very valuable teaching.
In the other hand they could be just plain crazy.


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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ]
    #871355 - 09/09/02 10:05 AM (19 years, 14 days ago)

ok this may be a dumb question, but did the children die? it didn't really specify... i've heard of some instances where people are put into such a deep trance that their body slows to near death, then they are buried, dug up, and revived... pretty far out, but you never know...


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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ]
    #871372 - 09/09/02 10:11 AM (19 years, 14 days ago)

To the right hand side of that page you got 2 hands comming from the flags of the US and Pakistan.  How come the pakistani hand is white? eh?  but then you could say why isnt the american hand black. i dunno, anyway...back into space i go :laugh:


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Crash a cig guvnor?


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Offlinewrestler_az
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #871643 - 09/09/02 12:45 PM (19 years, 14 days ago)

whats a more possible scenario......a devine being such as the god we speak of creates man and then leaves no physical proof of its existance leaving us only to wonder whats really going on up there, or that man created god, as kind of an emotional back brace if you will, to help us try to understand why we are here, and give some meaning to our existance. and to give us something to look to for spirtiual guidance, something to pray to, so we dont feel so alone, and so that even after deatrh, which scares us all, we can continue on living......i believe that many of the worlds religions came to be by mans fear of the unknown.....it sounds alot better to say we all go to "heaven" when we die, than it is to say we just decay and rot, our bodies turning into worm food.....just a thought


--------------------
how's your WOW?





  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Fliquid]
    #872233 - 09/09/02 12:08 PM (19 years, 14 days ago)

There is no god, and praying is only a state generated to make the pain go away.

Hey, if the sugar pill works then I'm eatin it.  :wink: 


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ]
    #872681 - 09/09/02 04:31 PM (19 years, 14 days ago)

Seems to me more like the industrial paint sprayer they use on the Golden Gate Bridge and the like :smile:

I used to be a materialist.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Anonymous

Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #872742 - 09/09/02 04:45 PM (19 years, 14 days ago)

Oh well done!  I love it!  Yes, I like your analogy much better than mine.

I am not a materialist either.  Both Eastern Mysticism and materialism are extremes.  I think the truth lies in the middle. :wink:

Cheers, 


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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ]
    #872820 - 09/09/02 05:20 PM (19 years, 14 days ago)

On a heavier note, many people suffer loss of faith in the aftermath of the death of an innocent. The bitterness that ensues, sometimes referred to as the Ahab Complex, after Melville's character for whom the White Whale, who took Ahab's leg, is a symbol for God. The God in question - the Wrathful Demiurgic Deity of the Gnostics, is what Ahab spits his venom at ("...from Hell's heart I stab at thee whale!...") There is the God Beyond God in much of the world's religion, including Gnostic Christianity - a benevolent loving and compassionate Reality. Even Ahab was made to say this by Melville:
"Thou knowest not how came ye, hence callest thyself unbegotten: Certainly knowest not thy beginning, hence callest thyself unbegun. I know that of me, which thou knowest not of thyself, oh, thou omnipotent. There is some unsuffusing thing beyond thee to whom all thy eternity is but time, all thy creativeness mechanical."

The contempt for the 'Demiurge' whose omnipotence not only permits but seems to create evil, is followed by yet a recognition of "some unsuffusing thing," the God Beyond the Demiurge, Who is, as the Muslims say is "the Merciful, the Compassionate."

In Stephan Hoeller's new book, 'Gnosticism: New Light on the Ancient Tradition of Inner Knowing,' he notes the cover story of the June 10, 1991 Time Magazine, in which Lance Morrow the author posited three propositions:
- God is all-powerful
- God is all-good
- Terrible things happen
Morrow said that one could agree with any two of these propositions, but not all three. If what seems to us to be evil truly exists, the God presented by monotheistic religions cannot exist. Ram Dass once attempted to explain the death of a child as a necessary but very brief incarnation before returning to God. Naturally,those around the child become powerfully attached, and can only experience the existential predicament which is the loss of a child - always terrible from a natural perspective. However, when considered 'sub specie aeternitatis,' under the aspect of eternity, with regard to a child ceasing to be a child, but becoming its true Nature - Beatitude - we have no choice but to sacrifice our grief, loss, regret, attachment.

Our pain is not the fault of God when seen this way, and as humans, we have little choice but to see all our loss and impermanence this way. It is the struggle of Job - 'Even though He slays me, yet will I believe in Him,' and it requires the fortitude of Job to come to terms with loss, epitomized in the loss of a child. I feel for whomever has to deal with this. I feel for all of us, as we all lose everything and everyone in the end - but we can gain very God, here and now, and there is nothing else that can get us through this existence.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Anonymous

Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #872840 - 09/09/02 05:29 PM (19 years, 14 days ago)

Well that wasn't too bad to wade through. :wink:

Yes, well there is this idea found in philosophy and humanistic or secular thought that God is omnibenevolent.  That is not the Christian's God in the way that humanists or secularists define it.  I could write a lot about this but I am cross-eyed with fatigue.

Theodicy, and the answer is simple.  God cannot create a world with freewill occurs and yet prevent evil from happening.  C.S. Lewis said that pain is God's megaphone to rouse a deaf world.


Lots more but I'm sure you get the point.

Cheers for gnosis,


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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ]
    #872912 - 09/09/02 06:01 PM (19 years, 14 days ago)

Well, get some sleep...but thanks for the response. I have not heard the term "omnibenevolent" before. As to the wading...most people know that Ph.D. means 'Piled Higher & Deeper"  :smile:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #873321 - 09/09/02 10:09 PM (19 years, 13 days ago)

- God is all-powerful
- God is all-good
- Terrible things happen

Why can't all three be true. If nothing ever went wrong, and there was no pain, no suffering, then what would be the point of living. The fact is you would learn nothing. Wisdom is acquired through suffering.
You can only understand what good is if you know what evil is.
An appreciation of pleasure comes from having experienced suffering.


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Offlinewrestler_az
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: jayson]
    #873323 - 09/09/02 10:13 PM (19 years, 13 days ago)

god is not all good..... even he has the potential for destruction, weve seen it before, we will see it again

god is not all powerfull..... even he too has rules he must follow, if hes so powerfull, why doesnt he just make the world a better place, end all fammine, end all wars? its not his place to do so......thats our area, he gave us free will for a reason

terrible things do happen......An appreciation of pleasure comes from having experienced suffering----- i agree with you on that one :grin: 


--------------------
how's your WOW?





  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Swami]
    #873453 - 09/10/02 12:54 AM (19 years, 13 days ago)

OK Swami...let's end this little family feud. You obviously hold very strong beliefs opposite to mine. This is great,it  makes for interesting debate but seriously though, let's stop correcting each other's grammar and spelling as this serves no purpose. Anyway, let's agree to disagree. I still fully expect intelligent debate from you in the future so don't shy away from my posts out of anger for Chemkid  :cool: Are you with me  ( as in can you comprehend me  LOL) Kidding! 


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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: jayson]
    #873512 - 09/10/02 02:33 AM (19 years, 13 days ago)

A) Wisdom does not come from suffering. Wisdom, at least from a Buddhist perspective, is both the means to, and the cessation of suffering. Wisdom in both East and West transcends suffering, and evil. It allows Joy and Peace to shine, despite pain and suffering.

B) The duality of pleasure and pain exists on a continuum that Wisdom transcends. Wisdom does not belong on or to this continuum in any tradition I have ever heard of.

C) As an 'archetypal' example of Wisdom being experienced in the absence of great pain and suffering, is the disciple John (of the Book of Revelations), who was banished to the Isle of Patmos, whereon he experienced Divine Revelations in the form of visions. Unlike Peter, who was crucified upside down, and then burned alive; or Paul, who was beheaded in Rome (Roman citizens were executed swiftly, without the torture of crucifixion, flogging to death or burning); or some of the other core disciples who met similar ends, John was merely exiled, and yet the Johannine literature embodies the highest Wisdom in the New Testament.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Adamist]
    #873563 - 09/10/02 03:52 AM (19 years, 13 days ago)

The mind controles the body...


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OfflineViBrAnT
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: Swami]
    #874943 - 09/10/02 03:37 PM (19 years, 13 days ago)

Dear Swami,

Everyone can by definition be equally special just as everyone by definition can be equally poor.

I made no refrence to the ritual of being from purist intentions, you should examine your opponents threat more accurately before taking military action, go sadaam,what the fuck is wrong with me?

your arguements are by my definition, worthless and illogical,but then again that is just my opinion.

peace>



--------------------
" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "




Edited by ViBrAnT (09/10/02 03:38 PM)


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: An interesting ritual...?..... [Re: ]
    #875276 - 09/10/02 06:15 PM (19 years, 13 days ago)

I assure you that this is not a representative example of eastern mysticism.

after edit: I should make a point to read an entire thread through before posting! Er..what Markos said.


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


Edited by buttonion (09/10/02 06:19 PM)


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