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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1160692 -

Why do you feel it is important to believe in god?

What purpose does it serve?


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https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Phluck]
    #1160887 -

Deleted by admin

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1161159 -

If you don't believe in God Himself, shouldn't you have an answer you can die by?

Actually Enter, I understand your question completely, and it's a good one.  So let me ask the very same type of question of you.  If you don't believe in Hades, and you don't plan to have yourself buried with a few gold coins in your mouth when you die, will you have an answer for Charon the Boatman when it comes time for him to ferry you across the river Styx?  You wouldn't want to be condemned to wander in lonely desolation on the bank of the river Styx until the end of time, would you???

Remeber, people had just as much faith in the Greek Gods as we do of the "modern" God.  You better better have an answer you can die by, just in case...  :wink:       


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

Edited by GoBlue! (12/21/02 09:25 PM)

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
    #1161166 -

Could God have designed a world with consciousness and not the possibility of pain?

Well, he certainly could've designed a world with consiousness and not the possibility of tornadoes!!!  :smile: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
    #1161277 -

Sure, make me One with Everything.
ok, but the extra anchoives will cost you

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1161464 -

Atheism has its answers straight, we are what we are, we get what we see, we're gone when we die. Our answers are, essentially, proven and logical because it is simply the world around us, reality.

It is when you bring something based on faith into the picture that it now incites questioning. I think being agnostic is just fine, personally I'm not really sure if I'm an athiest or an agnostic, and I guess that makes me an agnostic, but at my base I am athiest. There are many questions in life that you can answer with any of a selection of religions, but what makes any of those answers true?

You can read through religious texts for answers, but what does that mean today, the mistakes and misbeliefs of others are hardly any interest to me. When there are so many different religions to choose from, which is the truth?

You can try to search for answers on your own, just by living life, or maybe through mushroom experiences. Any way you try to find answers on your own, do you know what you've really found? A "miracle" could be anything, the feeling you felt on your trip could be purely chemical.

To say you have the answers seems foolish to me. There are millions of people in the world who all have the answers, and all their answers are different. What makes your answers any more true?

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #1161495 -

When I first came to the Shroomery, I considered myself Athiest.  This is because no religion had any sort of evidence proving that it was real.  However, although I find serious weaknesses with all religions (such as how the Christian God changes his personality over time from a vengeful God - Noah, Abraham, Sodam & Gomarrah, etc., to a more loving God, etc.), I have been unable to disprove religion either (including the Greek gods that I referenced in my last post).  Therefore, I have to call myself Agnostic.

Like you, I believe Athiesm is probably the way things are.  But I think anyone who's been following the discussion on these boards almost has to be Agnostic.  No one has yet proven or disproven God's existance, and I assume when you say "our answers are, essentially, proven and logical", you really just mean they seem logical.  If Atheism has been proven, PLEASE share the proof with the Shroomery!!!  :laugh: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
    #1161524 -

Thank you Scrooge. Like my childhood friend Gary, an American of Greek heritage, a physicist and geophysicist by trade, who I personally turned on to cannabis and acid - he has extended, or rather distended his ego to 'engulf' the mystic, non-rational psychedelic experience, rather than allow that experience to burst the boundaries of the rationally held universe. By his own admission, he has "an ego the size of Montana." This, however, did not prevent him from offering to take care of me to the end of my life if my melanoma turned out to be metastatic. So, like you, a very intelligent and kind person, he has chosen to identify himself with the rational soul. With you, of course, it is an extension of pure Platonism. With him, he married only a few years ago and his Greek Orthodox wife plus his dialogues with me have directed him to Christ, and so perhaps things are changing.

A strongly rational mind can be cause for a very inflated ego because a mind endowed with reason is a powerful mind, and power is a third chakra dominated personality. Recognizing the Transrational dimension of Reality is Truly humbling. Without allowing this process, and allowing the sharp edges of my reason to soften (intentionally), I could be an arrogant a**hole. I would rather be taken as 'weak minded' by some of the younger, arrogant and unenlightened readers here, than to be my former, unredeemed self. Jesus emptied Himself the Scriptures say. I have emptied myself in Imitatio Christi. You have recently noticed an 'edge' to some of my posts. If it were not for my priority of Compassion over reason, I'd be tearing new a**holes left and right in some of the assinine posts at this forum. I am taught by Compassion to lay down the sharp sword of Disciminating Wisdom at times. But paradoxically, it requires a certain Wisdom to know when to do that, and I believe that Wisdom , like Compassion, derives from a Transrational, Transcendental Source. This belief has made the whole difference in the quality of my life.

I like you very much, and I know you only from the electronically manifested words originating from you. Your reason is much to be admired, and you know that I appreciate its quality and value. But...would you (figuratively) kneel beside me with lowered eyes before the Infinite and Unfathomable Mystery, in true humility?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Swami]
    #1161563 -

Actually, this reminds me of something I recently read - that the closest thing in our world to God, is silence. Nevertheless, as William James worded it, the very world is a "buzzing, blooming confusion," in certain states of mind. Or perhaps as William Blake put it when he noted that one could find 'eternity in a flower' or 'infinity in a grain of sand,' these things are not 'merely' poetic, they are liguistic communications of one's perception of 'God' when the 'doors of perception' have
been opened. I cannot impart such a perception and simultaneous understanding to you with example or argument.

If you found an alien artifact, something that was unmistakenly not-of-this-world, would you not marvel, wonder about its creator[s], have your very world-view blown away by the discovery? Well, this is what existence has come to do to me, and it has been quite a struggle at times to remain in this world as a socially and occupationally functioning citizen. Mental illness has never been an avenue of consideration for me, but monastic life has been. If not for being a heterosexual with needs for the feminine form, I would've left society decades ago. I am living IN this world, with many of its amenities, but I am not OF this world, which is how St. Paul has put it. It is not for a philosophical point of view that I dialogue with you, it is merely to share a perception to the best of my ability.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1161565 -

"I'm suggesting that if any human desires to conclude that God does not exist, he/she should ask the right questions that would provide accurate answers so that an accurate conclusion can be made with confidence."

That conclusion cannot be made accurately, neither can the conclusion that god DOES exist. There is no definitive evidence either way.

"Furthermore, one should not be "pretty accurate" or "close enough" when we are discussing a subject that impacts the whole picture of life."

Someone who feels that their beliefs are "pretty accurate" or "close enough" is less of a fool than someone who believes whole-heartedly that there is or isn't a god.

"One must have answers he/she can live and die by in terms of having truth that transcends the average lifespan of a human."

Such answers are impossible to obtain. You may have convinced yourself you have an answer, but that does not make it accurate.

In a previous thread, you accused atheists of having a fear of facing god, I might as well go ahead and accuse all non-agnostics of having a fear of facing the fact that they don't know, and cannot know the answers.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1161579 -

My Dear MarkostheGnostic,

I know that you mean well and have come a long way, for which I commend you.

You could be an arrogant a**hole because that part of your nature remains. Instead of lashing out at others' egos may I suggest a refresher course in the practice of humility and in the emptying of the self as you, yourself, heartily endorse. Look not at your fellow man when you still have dross to be burnt.

Please let me be the judge on another's spiritual progress and degree of enlightenment.

Thank you.

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1161624 -

If it were not for my priority of Compassion over reason, I'd be tearing new a**holes left and right in some of the assinine posts at this forum.

In that case, we?re all grateful that you?re such an un"reason"able person.  :wink:

I am taught by Compassion to lay down the sharp sword of Disciminating Wisdom at times. But paradoxically, it requires a certain Wisdom to know when to do that.

A wise man knows that you lay down your sword when it isn?t sharp enough.

Would you not marvel, wonder about its creator[s], have your very world-view blown away by the discovery?

I?m sure if God were real, he would marvel at his own creator as well!

I believe this forum is all about the free exchange of thoughts and ideas.  It?s already lead me from being Athiest to being Agnostic.  If you can convince me of ?the truth?, that would be WONDERFUL, and I would forever grateful (no sarcasm ? that?s what I?m here to discover).  Feel free to rip me a new asshole anytime, because I am grateful for any piece of wisdom that I would gain as a result. 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1161639 -

Markos, you seem to be enjoying this thread, so please, give us athiests a few reasons to believe in god.

I don't want a "everything around you is god" sort of answer, give us something that will really make an athiests mind twist and bend at the evidence you give us.

In truth, I wish I wasn't an athiest. I wish there was a god and an afterlife, I don't want to cease to exist. So please, help me believe.

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
    #1161644 -

Cute, very cute.
Of course there's dross with the Gold. I'm human, and self-emptying is a process. (In fact Sunday night I take out both the garbage and the recyclables). I am not "lashing out," as I abhor the use of lashes, whips, flagrums on sentient beings, but as 'You' well know, a prophet's righteous indignation is directly connected to the Righteousness of the LORD.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1161656 -

Markos, your post reminded me of listening to Ginsberg's _Wales Visitation_ earllier today.
-
"Wales Visitation" was written on the 6th hour or so hour of an acid trip in Wales at the house of my English publisher. The word "visitation" comes from the peregrinations of the Welsh bards, who went once from village to village rhyming their news and gossip. The poem uses two thirds of the notes made at that time, stitched together later. I was interested in making an artwork comprehensible to people not high on acid, an artifact which could point others' attention to microscopic details of the scene. They wouldn't necessarily know the poem was written on acid, but with an extraordinarily magnified visionary appreciation of the vastness of the motif in its "minute particulars," it might transfer the high consciousness of LSD to somebody with ordinary mind. By focusing the poem's eye outside of my thoughts onto external pictures details of the phenomenal world I was able to maintain a center and balance, continuing from beginning to end in an intelligible sequence, focusing on awareness of breath. It was coherent enough to publish in "The New Yorker", whose editors eliminated the note about acid.
-

to me, ginsberg's poem has those very qualities of an alien artifact.


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1161689 -

Does your A**hole hurt from blowing smoke up it all the time?

I still want to know why you think I need to believe in God.



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https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1161716 -

If you don't believe in God Himself, shouldn't you have an answer you can die by?

No. That type of question would only be asked by one ALREADY holding some religious belief.



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1161810 -

"I'm suggesting that if any human desires to conclude that God does not exist, he/she should ask the right questions that would provide accurate answers so that an accurate conclusion can be made with confidence."

I couldn't have said it better myselt, Enter :smile:

Religion DOESN'T DO THIS...... peolpe who don't follow God theories are attempting to do that what you described. We understand it will never be complete, this quest for "truth." We understand that we'll never find all the "accurate answers" so that we can make an "accurate conclusion" with confidence.... every answer births more questions; we don't attempt to answer the unanswerable with illogical fables.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1162174 -

as 'You' well know, a prophet's righteous indignation is directly connected to the Righteousness of the LORD.

Everyone listen to the great self-proclaimed prohphet Markos, for his indignation is directly connected to the righteousness of the Lord!

hmm....What was that you were saying about arrogance

A strongly rational mind can be cause for a very inflated ego because a mind endowed with reason is a powerful mind, and power is a third chakra dominated personality. Recognizing the Transrational dimension of Reality is Truly humbling. Without allowing this process, and allowing the sharp edges of my reason to soften (intentionally), I could be an arrogant a**hole.

I would rather be taken as 'weak minded' by some of the younger, arrogant and unenlightened readers here, than to be my former, unredeemed self.

On the contrary Markos I find you to be quite 'strong minded', and possesing of a highly inflated ego.

Not trying to offend
This is not a flame



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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1162186 -

My response was to a guy who calls himself the LORD, so naturally, MY response was as tongue-in-cheek as is his tag. YOU, on the other hand are denser than Plutonium for reading my response as a literal proclamation of being a prophet. I'm as much a prophet as the poster is the LORD. Maybe you should read things more than once to avoid this kind of embarrassment.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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