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 Nomad
Mad Robot
Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
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 Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer?  [Re: Phluck]
#1160266 - 12/21/02 12:02 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well of course it does, if you've managed to convince yourself that everything and anything in existance were created by god. This is a prime example of an argument based entirely on a "sense" that you get. Just because you feel something is true, does not make it so.
The funny thing about this kind of rational argument is that you argue against something undefined. You have absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that Markos' concept of God is in any way related to your concept of God. I'm sorry, but this kind of frantically arguing against something which is undefined reveals more of the atheists' own ignorance and prejudice than that of the believer.
This is not really directed personally at you. It's just something I notice a lot and thought would be worth pointing out. Get real, people: If you want to make a rational argument about something, you'll first have to give your definition of it.
If, on the other hand, the believer refuses to define God, as is often the case, then the atheist cannot make an argument about it. Simple enough. This, then, does not mean that God is true, or that God is false, but that the concept you're dealing with is outside the realm of binary logic. To attach trueness or falseness to an undefined concept is a fallacy in itself.
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Anonymous
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Swami]
#1160281 - 12/21/02 12:09 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Let's not be too hasty in our presuppositions Swam.
Could God have designed a world with consciousness and not the possibility of pain? Think about that for a while.
Cheers,
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Nomad]
#1160282 - 12/21/02 12:11 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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ARGH! I'm not a fucking atheist!
If you read what I posted you will realize that I quite clearly said that believing there is no god is just as stupid as believing that there is. Get a dictionary, and look up "atheism". Then look up "agnosticism".
It really doesn't matter what the concept of god is. Any concept of god is potentially false.
"To attach trueness or falseness to an undefined concept is a fallacy in itself."
An undefined concept is nothing. You can't possibly believe in god if you don't have any concept of what he/she/it is. I'm pretty sure all "believers" have at least some concept of what they believe god to be, and have thus attached a belief to something without any basis.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Phluck]
#1160284 - 12/21/02 12:13 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Another point...
believing in god does not really answer any questions at all. Where did god come from?
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Anonymous
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Nomad]
#1160298 - 12/21/02 12:24 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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And now you want to bring up that logic stuff?
[plugs ears and runs screaming from the room]
Na na na na na na na na na na
Seriously?
Indeed.
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Nomad
Mad Robot
Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Phluck]
#1160303 - 12/21/02 12:26 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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If you read what I posted you will realize that I quite clearly said that believing there is no god is just as stupid as believing that there is. Get a dictionary, and look up "atheism". Then look up "agnosticism".
Okay, missed your point. Anyway, I'm sure there's some atheist around here who can relate to what I wrote above. 
It really doesn't matter what the concept of god is. Any concept of god is potentially false.
Can you drop the word "god "? Because, it really doesn't matter what the concept is. Any concept is potentially false.
An undefined concept is nothing.
No, it's not. Nothingness is quite clearly defined. But this kind of zen logic seems to piss a lot of people off. I've never figured out why.
You can't possibly believe in god if you don't have any concept of what he/she/it is. I'm pretty sure all "believers" have at least some concept of what they believe god to be, and have thus attached a belief to something without any basis.
I don't know if they have a concept or not. I'm just pointing out that you cannot argue rationally against them until they have laid out their concept to you. If the believer refuses to do that, you can't argue against him.
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Anonymous
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Phluck]
#1160306 - 12/21/02 12:29 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Don't get upset Phluck. It simply won't do to have an anurism in this forum. How would I explain that to Thor? Besides the EMT squad would cause a lot of noise and disturb the members that are sleeping.
"Where did god come from?"
There are various philosophical answers for that conundrum. God is a sufficient Being is but one.
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Nomad
Mad Robot
Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
#1160311 - 12/21/02 12:33 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'll leave the realm of logic soon, again. I'm just on a journey through.
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Anonymous
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Nomad]
#1160317 - 12/21/02 12:38 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Cool! 
Me too. As someone said, "Logic is a good teacher but a bad Master."
Catcha on da flip side!
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Nomad
Mad Robot
Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
#1160323 - 12/21/02 12:43 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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beautiful 
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
#1160332 - 12/21/02 12:57 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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It is not so much as "What hath Athens to do with Jerusalem?," as Tertullian put it, but that reason has its limitations, as does faith. The right tool for the right job. Existence itself is creation, and creation demonstrates the Creator to me and to others who understand what I'm saying. At this point in my life, I can't even really entertain the possibility of no Creator. I cannot attribute meaning from 'probability,' or from 'time,' or from any other comprehensible and therefore idolatrous notion.
The "world," better, 'cosmos,' itself perhaps a living reality, will become "All in all," according to mystics like Pierre teilhard de Chardin, following the Biblical saying. The Church of Christ is not to be confused with the outer manifestations in the world. It is a spiritual reality, invisible to the physical senses like the Divine Nature itself. Much of what we notice are wolves in sheep's clothing - counterfeits - pretenders, like cult leaders and 'accepted' officials (bishops, priests, and other pedophiles in collars). This is taking the shadow for the substance.
God will not and cannot be mocked. God equals Ultimate Reality, the very Idea of which blows me away, as I know that it transcends infinitely my most sublime imagination of possibility. I kneel and bow with reverence, I do not cower in terror. The irreverence of ignorant, vulgar men seeking only to aggrandize their own loud egos has no impact on Reality, but Reality will find such egos unable, unwilling and unworthy of any manner of theosis.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Swami]
#1160344 - 12/21/02 01:09 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes...all of that. Like the Universal Vision given to Arjuna by Krishna, or perhaps more like the 'hind portions' of God given to Moses, lest the Divine Brilliance utterly destroy the man. God is a "Tremendum," a 'destroyer' like Kali Durga, like Satan, whom God created and employs (mythologically speaking). God's Nature is incommensurate with human life, hence the need for a Mediator, who mediates that aspect of God's nature to humans, and by which humans can enter into God without being annihilated. Christ is the 'transformer,' figuratively taken, that transforms our nature into a form that is "pleasing to God," or less anthropomorphically, an energy that no longer meets God as anti-matter meeting matter. God is not just sweetness and light. God is also bitterness and fire. Mercy and Judgement, as the right and left pillars of the Tree of Life describes.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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3eyedgod
trippinkid
Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 684
Loc: Far away and very near
Last seen: 21 years, 5 months
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#1160365 - 12/21/02 01:28 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Nature is incommensurate with human life, hence the need for a Mediator, who mediates that aspect of God's nature to humans, and by which humans can enter into God without being annihilated. Christ is the 'transformer,' figuratively taken, that transforms our nature into a form that is "pleasing to God," or less anthropomorphically, an energy that no longer meets God as anti-matter meeting matter.
Who says Christ in the "transformer" or that we need a "transformer" at all. Perhaps the death of our bodies is the only transformation required. Without the trappings of our brain aren't we pure undefinable, intangible consciousness. The pure "isness" that is God (the one-sweetness and light, bitterness and fire).
All is in each, as each is in All.
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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself
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 CosmicJoke
happy mutant
Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
#1160378 - 12/21/02 01:42 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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namu amidah butsu
maybe i don't have the answer, but i do know i'd rather be centered in the inner-mind than puppeted around by food, car, sex... exc.... not that those aren't good things, it's just all a matter of where you're sitting.
namu amidah butsu
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Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good.
If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.
It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.
I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Murex
Reality Hacker
Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Swami]
#1160386 - 12/21/02 01:49 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Fear, pain, grief and loss all scream of a Designer's loving hand? Not to me.
Designer? Who said God is a designer? Your concept of this generalized God should no be so defined as a 'designer'. I personally don't believe in someone or something created the universe. The universe just is- it's more like nature, and 'God' is seperated into varrying sizes of souls that dwell in this universe as well as every dimension (imo).
What I'm trying to say is- Don't say 'Why bla bla your creator, God do this?' when this only applies to some beliefs.
Also, If someone like you really wants to find out what god is, try starting with a clean slate and begin with the 1st dimension at 'the beginning of time'. From there, you can (as scientifically as possable) go down the line until you reach this universe here and now in the 3rd dimension- and beyond.
Just some advise for another view. 
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What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?
Edited by Murex (12/21/02 01:51 PM)
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raytrace
Stranger
Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Phluck]
#1160538 - 12/21/02 02:56 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Any concept of god is potentially false
yeah, right... pizza anyone?
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raytrace
Stranger
Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Revelation]
#1160544 - 12/21/02 02:58 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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sex with God
I thought it was called music.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#1160574 - 12/21/02 03:08 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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...invisible to the physical senses ...
So to what is it shouting? To shout generally means to make a noise louder than the surrounding noise so as to be noticed. If most men cannot hear, then God's presence can hardly be called a "shout", even metaphorically.
I was as sincere a seeker as anyone that I have met. I have listened in quiet for even a whisper and heard nothing but silence.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Anonymous
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: raytrace]
#1160585 - 12/21/02 03:15 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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"pizza anyone?"
Sure, make me One with Everything.
Oh and I want extra anchovies, thick crust, and lots of sauce. Num!
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Anonymous
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#1160652 - 12/21/02 03:41 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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"It is not so much as "What hath Athens to do with Jerusalem?," as Tertullian put it, but that reason has its limitations, as does faith. ETC"
Well put. However I disagree. I love that quote btw. We have touched on this briefly before. I understand your view and I reject it. I have been where you are and it did not satisfy. I am neither a Materialist nor a Mystic. I am a Realist. I do not let experiences, no matter how grand or wonderful, delude me into tossing reason out the door. I do not let them dictate to me what is on the other side, if anything.
How would I know that the Spiritual "experience" I just had was not a bit of undigested beef or a mutton chop? Maybe I had too much coffee or maybe my hormones were out of whack or my "biorhythms" were goofy. You see what I mean?
I think there is evidence for the Ultimate Reality too but I do not let my intuitive side negate my rational one. I like balance far too much to let that happen. 
Great post though. I really love the way you write. Your writing is so refined I sometimes feel like a little kid when I read it. You humble me.
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