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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 18 years, 11 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: ]
    #1152089 - 12/18/02 02:48 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

How come you don't think it's right to grieve a loved one? I think that's pretty cold hearted.

LOL!  :grin:


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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Anonymous

Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1152135 - 12/18/02 03:05 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I'd say you're catching on. :wink:

:grin:


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Offlinedjamor
Stranger

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 95
Loc: rocky mountains
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1152238 - 12/18/02 03:47 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

relax brother, or sister. I don't know if I understood your full idea, but then, I'm not sure you understand the full implications of your idea, either. It's kinda complex stuff, ya know? Not everything I say is in reference to what you wrote. I said quite a few things, but you chose to interpret some as an attack on your idea.
Realizing that death feeds on life and life results in death isn't really a new idea, it's ancient. You implied that most people believe that we 'cease' to exist when we die. Wrong! Most people believe in an undying soul, whether it resides in heaven, hell, or is reincarnated here on earth (or simply travels elsewhere) after you die.
I certainly believe 'death is not the end' and if that is your point, it's well taken.
But the soul survives, imo, the carbon that goes back into the soil (H2O, etc.) isn't you, it's just some elements that can be re-used by a mother to make a body that may house another soul, or something like that. Personally, I have no problem with "trans-migration of soul" philosophies, maybe my life-force (spirit) will be re-born in a human, but maybe it'll be a dog, or 3 ravens or 40 million bacteria, I don't know. None of us do. That's where spirituality begins - realizing that one does not know.

"To me, existence is God. All that exists came from something, and the source is what I consider God. "All that is", whatever you want to call it. "- good one Max

"Gotcha. God = Existence. That makes more sense, but it sort of makes the term "God" irrelevant." not really (unless you use my definition of God), GoBlue. If you look at existence and are amazed and awe-inspired and appreciate that you are here now reading this because some 'unknown' put the basics building blocks of life into this universe...well, why not call that unknown "god"?

My point is the difference between god and God. I thought I explained it pretty good, but I guess I'm alone on that. In truth, we all define god for ourselves, whether we simply believe the biblical interpretation, or create our own religion.
(By the way, I don't think anyone here is preaching, or being mean or disrespectful, thanks everyone for that!)
But you didn't answer me. Where does that philosophy lead you?!
Is it ok that we blow the world up with nukes? I mean, our spirits will still survive. Do you see what I mean? Philosophy affects your actions and attitudes.


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1152273 - 12/18/02 04:00 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

APPEAL TO IGNORANCE, a subtype of burden of proof (a type of pseudoreasoning):

Bob: The car won't start (claim #1)
Ted: Yeah, I know. Its a problem with the ignition (claim #2 - claim #1 was accepted and verified by Ted, so thats clear)
Bob: What makes you think that? (inquiry/objection - hey it could be tons of other shit too, Ted)
Ted: Well; why not? (Telling Bob to prove its NOT the ignition... thats just stupid.)

I feel I need to get this idea across because it happens all the time around here.. people are putting the burden of proof on the wrong side of their claims. If you claim God exists, and we DENY that claim, its up to YOU to prove it... there's nothing for a non-believer to proove - nothing at all. If I say there's no God - I'm denying the "god-claim."

I'm looking in this old critical thinking book and there's a comic in it that represents this well. There are these two guys in a museum standing among the dinosaur reconstructions, and one of them is saying "... but there's no proof that they DIDN'T dance EITHER!"

argh it makes so much sense to me, why don't people understand that when they claim something exists, they have to prove it - we don't have to prove it DOESN'T, because until its proven, it basically DOESN'T ANYWAY.

And please don't start acting like Plato and saying "well can we ever prove ANYTHING at ALL really?!" because thats when claims start getting even MORE absurd and useless.

Here's an excerpt from this text:
"Most often, the burden of proof should fall on those who claim something exists rather than on those who claim it doesn't [which is exactly what you guys do when you say "proove there's no god" thats putting the burden back on the person who didn't believe in anything to begin with]. There are people who believe in ghosts, not because of any evidence that there ARE ghosts, but because nobody has shown there are no such things. This is burden-of-proof pseudoreasoning because it mistakenly places the requirement of proving their position on those who do not believe in ghosts.

If you still don't care that you're resorting to pseudoreasoning, then so be it - I'll simply attempt to ignore claims like "well you can't prove that there have never been any pink elephants with purple polka-dots."

-=- Matt/Strumpling -=-
Sorry for carrying this so far off-topic..


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (12/18/02 04:07 PM)


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Offlinedjamor
Stranger

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 95
Loc: rocky mountains
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: ]
    #1152321 - 12/18/02 04:20 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"How come you don't think it's right to grieve a loved one? I think that's pretty cold hearted. " is it? I've grieved the loss of a loved one, I remember how bad that felt...how I could hardly breathe, how that stabbing pain in the heart feels...how I wanted to join her. I wouldn't want my loved ones to go through that when I "change". I know they will grieve anyway, and if that helps them heal, then so be it. But I would be happy to see them smile at my funeral. I would understand in death that they understood me in life.


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: djamor]
    #1152330 - 12/18/02 04:26 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

that certainly makes sense, but can it really happen? I feel terrible when people close to me pass on.. even though I know they wouldn't want me to be.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offline3eyedgod
trippinkid

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 684
Loc: Far away and very near
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1152366 - 12/18/02 04:43 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

rgh it makes so much sense to me, why don't people understand that when they claim something exists, they have to prove it - we don't have to prove it DOESN'T, because until its proven, it basically DOESN'T ANYWAY.

I understand  ya

You can't proove a negative, and mathematics never lie :grin:


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


Edited by 3eyedgod (12/18/02 04:43 PM)


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 18 years, 11 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1152667 - 12/18/02 06:56 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

. If you claim God exists, and we DENY that claim, its up to YOU to prove it... there's nothing for a non-believer to proove - nothing at all.

I see what you are saying and I respect your obviously well thought out point of view, I just don't agree. I believe God exists, I am not going to hide that fact because I can't provide physical evidence, if I want to talk about it I am going to talk about it, not going to pretend I don't or just not bring it up. In other words, I don't feel I have to justify my opinions anymore than a "counterpointer" has to justify theirs. Your idea is a little like favoring the "counterpointer", making that opinion hold more weight, IMO. Point and counterpoint are equal, in my opinion.

argh it makes so much sense to me, why don't people understand that when they claim something exists, they have to prove it - we don't have to prove it DOESN'T, because until its proven, it basically DOESN'T ANYWAY.

So I can't claim to believe something in public unless I have physical evidence that I can provide on the spot? Also, just because you can't prove something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A long time ago, people couldn't prove Germs existed, so did they not exist in reality or was it just not proven?

And please don't start acting like Plato and saying "well can we ever prove ANYTHING at ALL really?!" because thats when claims start getting even MORE absurd and useless.

Well, I don't think it is absurd and useless at all. I Pluto and I have a valid point. You may not agree, but you don't have to agree with me, as I don't have to agree with you.

If you still don't care that you're resorting to pseudoreasoning

I don't think it is "pseudoreasoning", just because you don't agree with people doesn't mean they are dumb or can't reason. I don't think your reasoning is stupid, I disagree but I am willing to believe it is because we are two human beings with two different lives, experiences and emotional responses that are individual unto ourselves, rather than your comprehension level being low.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 18 years, 11 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from [Re: djamor]
    #1152678 - 12/18/02 07:01 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry if I seemed angry but I assure you I was not. I have a tremendous amount of respect for your ideas and beliefs. I did, for some reason (probably because I was high) think that you were talking directly to me and for that I am also sorry.

You implied that most people believe that we 'cease' to exist when we die. Wrong!

I think you are correct actually. I DID imply that and it ISN'T correct.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from... [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1152913 - 12/18/02 08:30 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"I just don't agree. I believe God exists, I am not going to hide that fact because I can't provide physical evidence, if I want to talk about it I am going to talk about it, not going to pretend I don't or just not bring it up. In other words, I don't feel I have to justify my opinions anymore than a "counterpointer" has to justify theirs. Your idea is a little like favoring the "counterpointer", making that opinion hold more weight, IMO. Point and counterpoint are equal, in my opinion."

OK.. Difference of opinion.

So I can't claim to believe something in public unless I have physical evidence that I can provide on the spot? Also, just because you can't prove something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A long time ago, people couldn't prove Germs existed, so did they not exist in reality or was it just not proven?

yeah it looks like this whole issue may certainly fault.. I suppose what I should have said in my first post regarding:

"there is as much "physical" evidence to support the theory of God that there is to support your theory."

is something like this: People who don't believe in a God don't have a theory to support... The only theory is that they don't believe in the theory of God.

"You may not agree, but you don't have to agree with me, as I don't have to agree with you."

Agreed.

"I don't think it is "pseudoreasoning", just because you don't agree with people doesn't mean they are dumb or can't reason."

It would be defined as pseudoreasoning to ask somebody to prove that God doesn't exist, but yes of course I didn't feel you're stupid or can't reason, lol!

"I don't think your reasoning is stupid, I disagree but I am willing to believe it is because we are two human beings with two different lives, experiences and emotional responses that are individual unto ourselves, rather than your comprehension level being low."

Agreed again.

-=- Matt/Strumpling -=-
your turn?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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