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Offlinejim_dewit
A pound of whichweighs...

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 33
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
God Cannot Exist
    #832807 - 08/21/02 11:53 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

So heres a little theory I came up with a while back. It brings together a couple concepts, and makes some basic assumptions. It isnt a perfect theory, but then, what theory is. And its not something I necessarly live by, but its interesting none the less.

Two possible universes exist:

1. One without a God
2. One with a God

If 1 is the case, I am right, and God does not exist. End of discussion. Lets examine possibility #2.

In almost all religions, God does not intervene in human affairs. This is both convinient, as it leaves no evidence of Gods existance, but it is also necessary (read on for explaination).

To my knowledge, religion does not ask why God created humans (maybe he was bored), but they will tell you that he loves all of us, we are all his children, etc etc...

But, for all his glory and power, God cannot interfere. To interfere in any way, would be to rob humans of free will. And that is Gods ultimate fear. God doesnt want us to love him because he made it so (God isnt a puppetere), he wants us to love him and believe in him out of our own free will.

Ahh, but religion tells us also one more thing about God. He is all knowing, he knows what we will do, what we have done, and what we are doing this very moment.

And that is the crux of the problem. Gods very existance robs humans of free will. If God knows that I what I will have for breakfast tomorow, or who I will fall in love with, then do I really have a choice in the matter? It is set in stone! We have no free will, Gods omnipotence stands in the way of the only thing he ever wanted, to be loved, out of free will.

When God exists, he plays every actor in the play, he is every prop, and he is the audience. God is so terribly alone he would rather not exist than to continue this sham. So what does he do? Well, he denies his own existance. Out of love for us, and out of utter lonelyness, God makes himself null...

Whether God exists, or ever did, I do not know, but Ill tell you this, the "life" of a diety would be a hell beyond my comprehension. =P


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: jim_dewit]
    #832872 - 08/21/02 12:07 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

What if nature created the human brain to have a spiritual "god" component in the same way it created a "hunger" component? Gods seem to be a universal feature of all human groups, perhaps it fulfills an innate need in human beings.

I think there's a big difference between "God" and organised religion. The bible isn't the literal word of God so we're basically going on some guys interpretation of God is. The simple way is to have your own experience of God and make up your own mind.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePotSmokinHippie
Pothead

Registered: 04/06/01
Posts: 223
Loc: New york
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: jim_dewit]
    #833271 - 08/21/02 01:44 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

You haven't proved that god dosen't exist (and I agree with you, he dosen't) all you've proved is that in certain religions with those views about got (christian, catholic) there is a logical fallacy in their reasoning. And it is interesting indeed.

However to disprove god, you need to look towards mathematical reasoning.

Chaos theory is the study of nonlinear systems dependent on inital conditions, where a small change in inital conditions can cause a drastic change in the outcome (to use the popular model, a butterfly flapping its wings in china can cause a tornado in texas). These systems are unpredictable, but have an underlying order, and we can predict where these systems may go.

Lorenz found equations that could predict the movement of a "leaky waterwheel" in which based on inital conditions, it would turn one way, stop, and turn another way in an unpredictable fashion, he found that three systems of differental equations could predict the x, y and z trajectories of the waterwheel:

dx
--- = sigma(x-y)
dt

dy
--- = rx-y-zx
dt

dz
--- = xy-bz
dt

r, b, sigma are the initial conditions.

Now, I'm all sure we've heard the stuff "the lord works in mysterous ways" and I'm sure, that through all religions, this statement can be deduced to be true. Events like september 11th, volcanoes dessimating pompeii and herculaneum, all unpredictable and done by gods. So in reality, wouldn't god be a chaotic system? Isn't god our leaky waterwheel? One that through analysis we should be able with some certainty predict?

Religion has been trying to do that for millinea now, trying to find their own differental equations for god. The bible, qu'ran among others are attempts at this reasoning. However, even with these attempts at making gods so called actions logical, we still have no idea what god's actions will be in certain conditions. Until someone comes along and shows us a way to do this, it seems illogical that god could exist.


--------------------
"assumption is the mother of all fuckup" - me


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Offlinemirror_saw
journeyman
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: PotSmokinHippie]
    #833291 - 08/21/02 01:52 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

we still have no idea what god's actions will be in certain conditions. Until someone comes along and shows us a way to do this, it seems illogical that god could exist.

Could you expound on this theory. It seems at first glance to be a little strange.


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Offlinemirror_saw
journeyman
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: PotSmokinHippie]
    #833382 - 08/21/02 02:34 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Events like september 11th, volcanoes dessimating pompeii and herculaneum, all unpredictable and done by gods.

I would think most religions wouldn't believe God is responsible for September 11th.

Perhaps God would blame it on religion?

Religion has been trying to do that for millinea now, trying to find their own differental equations for god. The bible, qu'ran among others are attempts at this reasoning.

?

we still have no idea what god's actions will be in certain conditions. Until someone comes along and shows us a way to do this, it seems illogical that god could exist.

Are you saying you would need a simulation of the entire universe inside a super computer to prove the existence of God?

If it could be done I would guess you might have disproved free will, but I'm not sure you would have proved the existence of any deity.

The simulation when reaching the moment in time when the program was started would have to be able to simulate itself.

It would then have to make predictions about the future which would have to presumably include some actions based on knowledge of the predictions themselves.


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Offlinemirror_saw
journeyman
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: mirror_saw]
    #833399 - 08/21/02 02:42 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

The simulation when reaching the moment in time when the program was started would have to be able to simulate itself.

I imagine it would crash faster than Windows 98.


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Anonymous

Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: mirror_saw]
    #833416 - 08/21/02 02:49 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I imagine it would crash faster than Windows 98.
THAT would be a miracle!


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Offlinemirror_saw
journeyman
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: jim_dewit]
    #833511 - 08/21/02 03:29 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

but religion tells us also one more thing about God. He is all knowing, he knows what we will do, what we have done, and what we are doing this very moment. And that is the crux of the problem. Gods very existence robs humans of free will. If God knows what I will have for breakfast tomorrow, or who I will fall in love with, then do I really have a choice in the matter? It is set in stone! We have no free will.

Lets say for the sake of argument that there is a God.

Lets say for the sake of argument that God knows what you will have for breakfast tomorrow.

What if God stands outside of time and he know's what you will have for breakfast tomorrow because he knows the choice you DID make, and NOT by knowing the choice you WILL make. Would this invalidate free will?


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: mirror_saw]
    #833670 - 08/21/02 04:34 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Lets say for the sake of argument that there is a God.

Lets say for the sake of argument that God knows what you will have for breakfast tomorrow.

What if God stands outside of time and he know's what you will have for breakfast tomorrow because he knows the choice you DID make, and NOT by knowing the choice you WILL make. Would this invalidate free will?


You hit the nail on the head. For muslims this belief is called al Qadar, or Divine Predestination. Al Qadar includes belief in four things: 1) God knows everything. He knows what will happen and what has happened. 2) God has recorded all that will happen and all that has already happened. 3) Whatever God wills to happen happens, and whatever He wills not to happen does not happen. 4) God is the Creator and Sustainer of everything.

Humans do have free will, it's more than obvious in today's world.


--------------------


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OfflinePotSmokinHippie
Pothead

Registered: 04/06/01
Posts: 223
Loc: New york
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: mirror_saw]
    #833844 - 08/21/02 05:38 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I would think most religions wouldn't believe God is responsible for September 11th.

According to christanity, catholicism, god is the creator of all good and evil (I think its in psalm 43:13), so in that sense he is responsible.

Religion has been trying to do that for millinea now, trying to find their own differental equations for god. The bible, qu'ran among others are attempts at this reasoning.

What I mean is that these writings are attempts to describe how god will act with certain conditions, so they are kind of like differental equations in the sense that they try to explain a chaotic system.

Are you saying you would need a simulation of the entire universe inside a super computer to prove the existence of God?

yes.

If it could be done I would guess you might have disproved free will, but I'm not sure you would have proved the existence of any deity.

Interesting point. If god could be proven using that method, free will and god are kinda one in the same. Going back to Jim's argument:

Gods very existance robs humans of free will. If God knows that I what I will have for breakfast tomorow, or who I will fall in love with, then do I really have a choice in the matter? It is set in stone!

So any god that makes a difference in our lives controls our free will. So you disprove free will you essentially prove god.


--------------------
"assumption is the mother of all fuckup" - me


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OfflinePotSmokinHippie
Pothead

Registered: 04/06/01
Posts: 223
Loc: New york
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: Zahid]
    #833859 - 08/21/02 05:43 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

3) Whatever God wills to happen happens, and whatever He wills not to happen does not happen.

Dosen't that refute free will?


--------------------
"assumption is the mother of all fuckup" - me


Edited by PotSmokinHippie (08/21/02 05:50 PM)


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
PNW
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: PotSmokinHippie]
    #833877 - 08/21/02 05:50 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Deleted by admin


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OfflineGhostWalker
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Registered: 08/21/02
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Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: World Spirit]
    #833903 - 08/21/02 06:07 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Um, as far as the science of what is going to happen in a given event, we are not far from that... Not in the form of pure math, but in the way of quantum computers... If a computer can do it... and it seems to me you are arguing more against being a christian than a belief in something greater than ourselves...


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Anonymous

Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: Zahid]
    #833920 - 08/21/02 06:12 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

God knows everything. He knows what will happen and what has happened.
&
God has recorded all that will happen and all that has already happened.
Why does he bother recording things if he already knows? Does he forget things?


Whatever God wills to happen happens, and whatever He wills not to happen does not happen.
&
Humans do have free will...
It seems this is a contradiction....


But back to the point, "Whatever God wills to happen happens, and whatever He wills not to happen does not happen." God willed me to not believe in Islam, he (assuming god has a sexual designation) willed me to use all my powers of reason and always have doubt about religious dogma. Why would God then punish me for not believing in Islam? Seems like a fucking asshole.


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Invisibledeep_umbra
Stranger
Registered: 05/12/02
Posts: 109
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: jim_dewit]
    #833952 - 08/21/02 06:23 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

maybe freewill is just our being walking the path that our ancestors have paved for us..


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OfflineZahid
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Registered: 01/21/02
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Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: ]
    #834016 - 08/21/02 06:53 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Why does he bother recording things if he already knows? Does he forget things?

Everything is recorded for the Day of Judgement when all of mankind will face Allah for review. The term recording is used in a sense that everything you do is on a record.

It seems this is a contradiction....

No, it isn't. Humans have free will, since the dawn of creation. The purpose of this world which was designed for humans to live in, and adapt to, is to choose good over evil. Since humans have free will, many of choose to reject the Signs of Allah.

But back to the point, "Whatever God wills to happen happens, and whatever He wills not to happen does not happen." God willed me to not believe in Islam, he (assuming god has a sexual designation) willed me to use all my powers of reason and always have doubt about religious dogma. Why would God then punish me for not believing in Islam? Seems like a fucking asshole.

You don't seem to comprehend divine predestination. Everything that happens, happens in His will because God is the Sustainer of all that exists. Humans have free will. Everyone should know that. God is outside the realm of time and space, He is All knowing, and He knows all that has happened, and what will happen. If you were to believe tomorrow morning and repent to Allah, it would have been your ultimate destination. If you continue to rebel against God, and die in that belief, that would have been your ultimate destination. When all humans are at a fetus stage in life, an angel goes to the fetus to breath in his or her soul. The angel then asks God, "Should I breath in a blessed soul, or an accursed one?" God then tells the angel what kind of soul to breath in based on His knowledge of what that person will do through out their life with their free will.


--------------------


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Invisibledeep_umbra
Stranger
Registered: 05/12/02
Posts: 109
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: Zahid]
    #834129 - 08/21/02 07:33 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

so if allah knows everything that has happened and will happen.. why does mankind have to face allah for review? shouldn't all that stuff be over by now? what's he waiting for? he knows the answers..


Edited by deep_umbra (08/21/02 07:35 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: Zahid]
    #834186 - 08/21/02 07:52 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

... an angel goes to the fetus to breath in his or her soul. The angel then asks God, "Should I breath in a blessed soul, or an accursed one?" God then tells the angel what kind of soul to breath in based on His knowledge of what that person will do through out their life with their free will.

ROFLOL... Dude, you really should stop reading children's nursery tales and try exercising your grey matter. So God already decides to have 'an accursed one' imparted in a body with this 'divine predestination' and yet I am supposed to buy this malarkey that the same God is going to judge this soul based on a pre-ordained outcome? What's the point? Why don't the soul's carnal parents just drop the kid in a pit of fire at birth? (or is that forbidden in Islam?)


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: jim_dewit]
    #834191 - 08/21/02 07:53 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

To whomever-

Firstoff, believing in a God that determines anything other than the initial act of creation IS believing in determinism (no free will). I don't care how you try to argue this. If God gave us free will, then he has no control over anything now... and it would be unfair to judge us (if he did, he'd be a dick and, once again, he can fuck off).
__________________________________________________

____A___vs.___B
Free Will vs. Determinism
No God vs. God


All of these arguments basically center around one common element: control.

Who has control? That's what we're really arguing here, right?

Well, since I have neither proof FOR nor AGAINST the existence of god(s), my perspective of the matter can be understood with a question:
Which mindset do I think is more healthy if the other was true?

Since I think it certainly SEEMS like we have free will, then I figure 'hey, that's good for me'. I could be mistaken and everything I do is actually a series of cause and effect... but even if it were, I don't think it would matter one way or another.

Since I've never seen irrefutable proof of a god, naturally, I lean towards NOT believing in a god. If I were wrong and God does exist, then the situation would depend entirely on the nature of this God. If it was the Buddhist concept of God, NOTHING would be different for me in this life. If it was Zeus, I imagine he'd be pretty pissed at me... but then I'd wonder why he never struck me down with a thunderbolt for my blasphemy. If it were the Abrahamic version of God, then I'd hope it wasn't the "angry, vengeful God" that Zahid favors... I'd still have to ask him why I was damned at birth to not believe in him and, thus, am forced to burn in hell for all eternity even though I had not experienced anything that would lead me to believe in him. So, in this case, I'd hope for the cool God who hates dogma just as much as me... and s/he would understand why I didn't believe in him/her.

Back to the 'healthy mindset' question...
I think that my perspective on the matter is quite grounded. If I was born into this life determined to be a non-believer of a wrathful god and when I die, I'll burn in hell, THEN so be it. I didn't have a choice anyways and therefore it is not my fault... my soul was damned from the start.

If there is free will and there is no god, then I'm ten steps ahead of those who waste their lives prostrated for fear that they'll burn in hell if they don't pray or for the self-satisfying goal of a pleasurable eternity in ecstasy. Note how ego-driven those two motivational factors are... I also get the luxury of not having to feel so anxious. I don't have to wonder if I'm going to hell or not. I don't have to wonder if some omnipresent being is looking over my shoulder as I'm knocking one out... or taking a few shots... or making love before marriage. I don't have to wake up early on the weekends (or any holy day). I don't have to sing songs to appease or celebrate an invisible, intangible, omnipotent, omnipresent being that will judge me come some day of reckoning far off in the future...

I don't have to do any of that and I'm okay with that.
If you're not okay with that, then I can tell you about my perspective on dogmatic thinking.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinejim_dewit
A pound of whichweighs...

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 33
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: God Cannot Exist [Re: ]
    #834394 - 08/21/02 09:13 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

What's the point? Why don't the soul's carnal parents just drop the kid in a pit of fire at birth?


ROFL


That reminds me of an Itchy & Scratchy episode where Itchy builds a cloning machine... The Scratchies come out on the convayer and there is too many for Itchy to kill... So Itchy builds a killing machine and the Scratchy clones go directly from the convayer into the killing machine.... And there was much blood, and laughing, and the people rejoyced...

I really hoped this wouldnt turn into a damned flame fest, but ha!, how neive of me.

And Zahid, I know you probably think im going to hell, for not believing in God, or his retarted messengers, and thats fine, thats your opinion... You want my opinion? Your already in hell pal... *shudder*


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