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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1162191 - 12/22/02 01:22 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Maybe you should read things more than once to avoid this kind of embarrassment.

Embarrassed, hardly.

YOU, on the other hand are denser than Plutonium for reading my response as a literal proclamation of being a prophet.

Perhaps you should have specified.  The post you replied to was apparently in jest, yours on the other hand didn't seem to be joking.

Your denser than a star collapsed on itself :tongue:


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1162201 - 12/22/02 01:28 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Thanks for the compliment! Never reminded anyone of Ginsberg before. Short of a Vulcan mind-meld, or advanced earthly telepathy and empathy (head and heart), we are forced to use language to communicate. Sometimes high-level poetry, hymns or Scriptures can 'break on through to the other side,' and communicate their intended import to us. We are all suffering from existential insulation, isolation and alienation in one degree or another. We armor ourselves as Reich said, and fear the very Union that we simultaneously seek through sex, drugs, spiritual discipline, and [mistakenly] death.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinehighwayman
long hair, butno hippie

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 106
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an ans [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1162204 - 12/22/02 01:30 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

"Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer?"

Hmmmm, well... just to be on topic: nope... I'll find out about eternity when I get there... until then I'm quite too short on time to bother.

But I do have to comment on this:

"how the Christian God changes his personality over time from a vengeful God - Noah, Abraham, Sodam & Gomarrah, etc., to a more loving God, etc"

Well the answer is quite simple.

"On the twenty-seventh day, He created the pills and the tabs and the needles and the bongs. On the twenty-eighth day, He dosed upon all that He had created and He rested."

It's in my copy of the book.... *shrug*


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1162223 - 12/22/02 01:43 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

The misquote needs to be "God's Nature in incommensurate with human life," and Christians say that humankind requires a mediator. Zen Buddhists, like Gnostic Christians, believe that the mediator is ever-present and available. Buddhists say that the Buddha-Nature is present and accounted for. Gnostic Christians, in parallel (but not identical) fashion, say that Christ is present, here and now (redundant, for emphasis), and does not 'come again' as Jesus in some future time. The Presence of Christ transcends time. Christianity and Buddhism have many parallels, and some points of contact which are phenomenologically identical. That is to say, for example, that a Christian saint and a Buddhist saint may seem to be equally kind, and equally wise, but the Source of their spiritual attributes may, or may not be the same. Buddha is not Christ, and Sunyata is not God.

Pretty much everyone understands that death, the cessation of physical life in the body, is not a ticket to anywhere except the grave or pyre. Spiritual life-after-death is a continuation of the life lived in the body, hence the Christian urgency to Love, and the blessedness of being reborn as a human in Buddhism, so as to be able to practice Compassion.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (12/23/02 02:23 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an ans [Re: highwayman]
    #1162236 - 12/22/02 01:52 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Actually, over the course of several thousand years, it is humanity that has changed in its ability to see YHVH as a local, volcanic mountain deity, with thunderings and fires that do not consume, etc., and then go on to see the same God as a universal God - the Creator of Heaven, Earth, Sheol, and later Hell and Purgatory. A movement from 'Fire' to 'Light,' is paralleled in numerous ways corresponding to a general movement in human psychology; in predominance of third chakra to fourth chakra 'ideals' of 'Kingship'; to possibly what Julian Jaynes said in his book 'The Bicameral Mind' in which the development of ego in the psyche originally presented itself as an external 'voice,' the gods talking, and only later as a part of one's personality internalized. Lots of reasons. God remains God, man changes in his conceptualization. Peace.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinehighwayman
long hair, butno hippie

Registered: 12/03/02
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an ans [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1162286 - 12/22/02 02:24 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Makes sense. I think though in all seriousness, I would personally write it off as a deliberate PR decision, "Happy Fun God" just plain sells better.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an ans [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1162319 - 12/22/02 02:34 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

You guys are all being silly.  And foolish.  Or maybe just silly.

This post makes me feel like this:  :crazy:  :confused:  :mad:  :crazy:  :confused:  :crazy:  :confused:  :mad:

Some reading for you all:

----------------------------

Once, long, long ago...
Yet, somehow, not so very long...

When all the animals and rocks and winds and waters,
And trees and birds and fish,
And all the beings of the world could speak and understand one another...

There began an argument.

It began softly at first...

Quiet as the first breeze that whispered,
"He is a wind who is never still."
Quiet as the stone that answered,
"He is a great rock that never moves."
Gentle as the mountain that rumbled,
"God is a snowy peak, high above the clouds."
And the fish in the ocean that answered,
"God is a swimmer, in the dark blue depths of the sea."

"No," said the star...
"God is a twinkling and a shining, far, far away."
"No," replied the ant...
"God is a sand and a smell and a feeling, who is very, very close."

"God," insisted the antelope, "is a runner, swift and free, who loves to leap and race with the wind."
"She is a great tree," murmured the willow. "A part of the world, always growing, and always giving."

"You are wrong," argued the island. "God is separate, and apart."
"God is like the shining sun; far above all things," added the blue sky.
"No! He is a river, who flows through the very heart of things," thundered the waterfall.

"She is a hunter!" roared the lion.
"God is gentle," chirped the robin.
"He is powerful," growled the bear.

And the argument grew louder and louder and louder...
Until...

"Stop!"

A new voice spoke.
It rumbled loudly like thunder.
And it whispered softly, like butterfly sneezes.
The voice came from Old Turtle.
Old Turtle hardly ever said anything, and certainly never argued about God!
But now Old Turtle began to speak...

"God is indeed deep," she said, to the fish in the sea.
"And much higher than high," she told the mountains.
"He is swift, and free as the wind. And still and solid as a great rock," she said to the breezes and stones.
"She is the life of the world," Turtle said to the willow...
"Always close-by, yet beyond the farthest, twinkling light," she told the ant and the star.
"God is gentle, and powerful. Above all things, and within all things. God is all that we dream of, and all that we seek," said Old Turtle.
"All that we come from, and all that we can find."
"God is."

Old Turtle had never said so much before.
All the beings of the world were surprised, and became very quiet.
But Old Turtle had one more thing to say:

"There will soon be a new family of beings in the world," she said.
"They will be strange, and wonderful. They will be reminders of all that God is. They will come in many colors and shapes, with different faces and different ways of speaking. Their thoughts will soar to the skies, but their feet will walk the earth. They will possess many powers. They will be strong, yet tender. A message of love from God to the earth, and a prayer from the earth back to God."

And the people came...

But the people forgot.

They forgot that they were a message of love and a prayer from the earth.
And they began to argue...
About who knew God, and who did not.
And where God was and was not.
And whether God was or was not.

And often, the people misused their powers and hurt one another.
Or killed one another.

And they hurt the earth.

Until finally, even the forests began to die.
And the rivers, and the oceans...
The plants and the animals...
And the earth itself.

Because the people could not remember who they were,
Or where God was.

Until one day there came a voice...
Like the growling of thunder, but as soft as butterfly sneezes.

"Please, stop!"

The voice seemed to come from the mountain, who rumbled:
"Sometimes I see God swimming, in the dark blue depths of the sea."
And from the ocean, who sighed:
"He is often among the snow capped peaks, reflecting the sun."
From the stone, who said:
"I sometimes feel Her breath, as She blows by."
And from the breeze, who whispered:
"I feel His still presence, as I dance among the rocks."
And the star declared,
"God is very close."
And the island added,
"His love touches everything."

And after a long, lonesome, and scary time...
The people listened, and began to hear, and to see God in one another...
And in the beauty of all the earth.

And Old Turtle smiled.
And so, did God

----------------------------


--------------------
Namaste.


Edited by RebelSteve33 (12/22/02 02:35 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1162615 - 12/22/02 04:23 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

A strongly rational mind can be cause for a very inflated ego because a mind endowed with reason is a powerful mind, and power is a third chakra dominated personality.

Absolutely. Unless it is tempered by the fact and/or awareness of one's own ignorance. I do not worship reason because my own mind is powerful or strong and I do not equate or mistake my own ratiocination for God's Supreme gift of reason. Mine is but a taper where His is like the burning Sun.

But...would you (figuratively) kneel beside me with lowered eyes before the Infinite and Unfathomable Mystery, in true humility?

Of course. My own ignorance which is ever present and always with me leads me gently to bow before the ineffable. Though I cannot speak intelligently about my own humility, true or false. I cannot be sure but I think it may be a virtue that if observed cannot exist. Only when it is unobserved by its owner can it be true.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: ]
    #1162935 - 12/22/02 06:15 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Thanks. Crystal clarity [ping].


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an ans [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1162953 - 12/22/02 06:20 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Thanks for the effort...nice story, and as I am headed to bed, it's the first bedtime story I've had in a lo-n-n-n-g time.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offline3eyedgod
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Registered: 11/24/02
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an ans [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1162964 - 12/22/02 06:23 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Beautiful Steve. I enjoyed that immensely. Where did you get it from?


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
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Posts: 3,774
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an ans [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1163143 - 12/22/02 07:30 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Thanks... I like it very much myself and thought it was quite fitting for this thread! :smile:

I originally posted it a while ago in  this thread, which will explain where I got it from.


--------------------
Namaste.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Phluck]
    #1163148 - 12/22/02 07:31 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Deleted by admin


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1163590 - 12/23/02 02:26 AM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Oh yeah...well you're denser than a big fat black hole with doody on it!


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1164392 - 12/23/02 09:32 AM (19 years, 29 days ago)

LOL :grin:


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1164802 - 12/23/02 12:14 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

I understand that if you have faith you will believe in god. However, with faith you can convince yourself of absolutely anything. Using faith I could convince myself I had an invisible monkey that followed me around helping me out in life. Would this mean that there was actually an invisible monkey helper there for me? No, of course not, it would make me delusional.


"1. The fascinating design of the universe and living things"

The universe sure is fascinating and beautiful, but what reason is there to believe that beauty cannot be created without consciousness?

"2. The independent action God has taken in my life"

Things may have happened in your life which you believe were the direct actions of god, but there really isn't evidence that these events were the actions of a god.

"3. The number of Christians who shared prophetic and even 'psychic' information with me, though I would prefer not to use the word psychic."

Every religion is filled with people who have experienced mystical intervention from their gods. Christianity is hardly alone in this one. Many of the information they received directly contradicts what you believe as a christian. I'm sure you've taken psychedelics before, and you managed to cause hallucinations and mystical feelings just by altering your brain chemistry. How can you know for certain that such experiences are not simply brief moments of altered conciousness brought on by a temporary chemical imbalance in the brain, and hyped up by an overactive imagination?

"4. The activities which occur internally and externally before, during and after prayer"

Prayer is a form of meditation, just another thing that changes your state of consciouness. The experiences you have are mirrored by those praying to contradictory gods. How do you know that they weren't created by an overactive imagination?

"5. The powerful impartations I receive from reading much of the Bible."

You receive information from the bible. I receive information when I read the bible too, same with the dictionary. Still don't believe in god.

"6. The experiences I have had outside of prayer in very sober states of existence, as well as moments after consuming psilocybe mushrooms."

Again, this is just an example of you convincing yourself that your experiences are related to your god.

etc, etc, etc...

"9. Last but not least (as I write these off the tip of my tongue), I would have to say that it's pretty darn obvious to an open eye that God is quietly upholding all that is, and He truly has His own personality though he remains so silent, so mysterious, and even One to truly fear."

There really isn't anything that makes this obvious. If you convince yourself that god is real, and that he's controlling everything around you, you will start to find patterns that will back this up. If there's anything the human mind is good at, it's finding patterns. Patterns can be found absolutely everywhere. If someone believes that god is helping them through life, they'll notice every coincidental piece of good fortune they have, and come to the conclusion that there are so many that it must have been god's intervention. If they believe that god is out to get them, they'll tally all of their misfortunes together, and use it as evidence that god is harming them. Life is filled with coincidences, this does not mean that they were put there by god, of course, if you have FAITH, it will seem blindingly obvious, but faith is not evidence for anything. Like I said, you can convince yourself that anything is true using faith, but that will not make it so.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Phluck]
    #1164807 - 12/23/02 12:16 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Well done! I thought those were very good answers.


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1164828 - 12/23/02 12:32 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

I don't believe God based on the following criteria:

1. The terrible design of the universe and living things.  We have flood, earthquakes, hurricanes, etc. to worry about in addition to human problems like war.  Our bodies were so poorly designed in that 1 in 8 of us will get cancer, I can break an arm just by falling down, I can get a deadly disease just from having sex, etc... If someone was put in charge of designing the human body, I'd give them a D+ for their efforts.
2. The lack of action God has taken in my life.  Fortunately, I am a successful person because I take my life into my own hands, and I refuse to sit on my ass and pray for something to happen.
3. The number of Atheists on these boards who have shared convincing and thought provoking information with me, without ever forcing me to rely on my imagination (psychic visions, etc) as the only way to get me to see their point.
4. The activities which fail to occur after prayer.  When I used to be religious, praying didn't seem to help much at all.  Fortunately, I?ve discovered that actions are quite effective at solving problems.
5. The crap I discover when reading much of the Bible.  It amazes me that people still take the book seriously at all.  I am told that I take the teaching of the bible too literally.  Whatever.
6. The experiences I have had in very sober states of existence, as well as moments after consuming psilocybe mushrooms have convinced me that there is no God.
7. The power of music to enhance ANY beliefs I want them to.
8. When I seem to fall to a low state, I can recover through several, well timed and well executed actions, without relying on any imaginary help.  Then again, imagination can be also be used in these situations.
9. Last but not least (as I write these off the tip of my tongue), I would have to say that it's pretty darn obvious to an open eye that God is NOT the one who upholds all that is, and He truly remains so silent, so mysterious, and One not worth fearing.

You see how your post was just a bunch of "fluff"???  Anyone can make any argument they want by doing that.

Back to the original question:  ?Shouldn't you have an answer??  I assume you mean ?what if I?m wrong about there being no God?.  That?s a great question.  Well, what if YOU?RE wrong, and you meet Charon the boatman after you die (refer to my previous post in this thread).  Shouldn?t YOU have an answer for Him??? 

Edit:  Hey Phluck, I just noticed you posted something similar to my answer.  I think we definitely agree with each other.  :laugh:


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


Edited by GoBlue! (12/23/02 12:35 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Phluck]
    #1165164 - 12/23/02 03:30 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Please tell me more about the invisible monkey. I have a strong desire to know and believe.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer? [Re: Swami]
    #1165234 - 12/23/02 04:18 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Please tell me more about the invisible monkey. I have a strong desire to know and believe. 


No,No, can't you see he's got it all wrong?

It's not invisible monkeys that help you out, It's invisible LEPRECHAUNS!!!!

That should be pretty damn obvious to anyone with an open eye :grin:


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


Edited by 3eyedgod (12/23/02 04:19 PM)


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