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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Evolving]
    #2554174 -

Thank you for your kind words, Frog, Skorp, and Evolving.

ZenGecko, I don't have the time or the inclination righ now to go into point by point your last post in which you attempt to clarify your opinion. A quick read of it yields no new arguments, just a rehash of the ones you have made here before.

One of your main points seems to be that since we cannot today explain to your satisfaction the exact mechanism by which free will (volition) operates, there is therefore no such thing as free will (volition). As I pointed out with my observation of grape juice transforming to wine, the fact that a phenomenon is at present not fully explainable does not invalidate the existence of that phenomenon. Until you grasp that fact, there is no point whatsoever in my elaborating on it. Luminous stars existed before twentieth century physicists proposed plausible theories to explain their luminosity. Rocks fell from mountainsides before the theory of gravity was proposed. Etc. etc.

You also seem bent on dismissing the evidence of your own senses. I repeat, the existence of volitional action cannot (and need not) be proven through logic. You seem not to grasp the function of logic. In order to utilize logical tools, you must have something upon which to utilize them. When I say that volition can only be demonstrated ostensively, I mean just that.

I have also pointed out the errors in your logical chain, you just refuse to acknowledge them.

Finally, quantum physics need not necessarily have anything to do with volition. I have seen here time and time again people get all wrapped up in quantum physics and confuse themselves mightily. It is a "can't see the forest for the trees" approach. Quantum physics is applicable to subatomic particles, not to organized macrostructures.

pinky


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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Phred]
    #2554483 -

"Quantum physics is applicable to subatomic particles, not to organized macrostructures"

Sorry to jump into the debate with no previous say so, but how can we know the limits of quantum psysics? Science is only begining to understand the possibilities here, and there is a strong possibility quantum physics has a MUCH larger role then we think it does. I.E. COntrolling everything from energy flow to food digestion. Weak argument because it is all speculation )

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2554549 -

2Experimental writes:

Sorry to jump into the debate with no previous say so, but how can we know the limits of quantum psysics?

Quantum physicists say that quantum effects exist at the subatomic level. No quantum physicist will say that (for example) just because the vast majority of an atom is empty space -- or just because an electron is not so much a wave or a particle or a wavicle or a collection of quarks as an expression of probability, for that matter -- that this means you can pass a coin through a sheet of lead so long as you carefully line everything up.

Now, it may be that quantum physicists are wrong. But that's beside the point in the context of this discussion anyway. If it turns out some years down the road that volition does in fact have its origin in some quantum physical phenomenon, all well and good. It would finally give ZenGecko the "mechanism" he is searching for.

But ZenGecko is doing more than just saying we don't as yet know the mechanism by which volitional acts arise, he is saying there is no such thing as volition, then trying to invoke straw man arguments involving quantum physics to support his contention.

pinky


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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2554650 -

I agree with you.

Logically, you've got it, though it's impossible to pinpoint every single cause, and therefore impossible to (dis)prove the existence of something acausal.

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Phred]
    #2554761 -

I'm never responding to a "free will" thread again except by proxy, through Pinky. 

:grin:

Thank you again, Pink, for sharing your thoughts.  All I can think is "yes!" when I read your responses.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Frog]
    #2554765 -

Frog said:
I disagree.  You may think that because of my previous choices, my future is clear.  However, I have the freedom of choice to change my present, regardless of what happened in my past up until this moment.


I wouldn't think of your future as clear at all. Every single day people are experiencing new moments and thinking new thoughts and this whole system keeps churning and moving on with time. Cause and effect isn't something that says "You've been a bad person, you will never change your ways", or what have you. :grin:

What I am saying, of course, is that who you were inevitably creates who you are in this moment. Who you have been interacts with what is outside of you and change occurs, and that moment leads right into the next moment and it keeps going.

There is no choice. There is an intricate chain of cause and effect continuing onward. Has anyone actually sat down and started observing how their mind works? There isn't some point in time where some entity stops and makes a choice.

Someone says "Hey man, want a beer?"  :beer:

After some recollection you say "Ja, I want a beer". 

Why, now doesn't that just come right out and suggest choice? Me, "I", as in, this individual perspective, I said "Ja" and wow! I made a choice!

Sure, if you treat yourself as one single faceted perspective totally seperated from the outside world and free from influence of that said world.

Man, I'm glad I don't give my ego THAT much credit! :lol:

:lol:

We are a small package encapsulated off of one system. We came about from that system. Our interactions with this system in each moment COMPLETELY rely on our previous interactions. What is put into us in those previous moments creates the action we "take" in this moment. We of course can only "take" the action that the previous moments define for us to take, and the interaction that is created in this moment between our little package with its experiences from the previous moments and the "outside" system then set up the next moment. In each moment there is an interchange between this "inside" system and this "outside" system and that automatically flows into the next moment... thus the chain reaction continues.

Oh, but I chose to reply, didn't I? If you want to break the reality view into very simple, concrete terms, than ja, I "chose" to reply.

He saw a reply to his in the free will thread.

He realized that he had points he felt he needed to make.

Of all the many choices he could have made in this moment, he chose to reply.

Wow that is completely incomplete! :grin:

Interaction is continous. There is no freedom from the steady flow of time. Where you have been put you where you are now and the combination of "who you have been" plus "where you are now" then create "who you are" in the next moment. This is ceaseless! Never-ending!

Put a liquid brain with some sensory devices at the source of a stream and I am sure it will feel it is in control as well.  :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Edited by fireworks_god (09/24/25 06:14 AM)

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2554910 -

Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
Frog said:
I disagree.  You may think that because of my previous choices, my future is clear.  However, I have the freedom of choice to change my present, regardless of what happened in my past up until this moment.




Yes, I agree with freedom of choice.  Or with free will, as described by Pinky.

Quote:
I wouldn't think of your future as clear at all. Every single day people are experiencing new moments and thinking new thoughts and this whole system keeps churning and moving on with time.



It's clear, to me, what my future is, as long as something doesn't happen in the meantime, like my death.  :grin: 

I agree that even though I'm on this pursuit, anything could happen in the meantime that could knock me off this path.  Death, disability, death of one of my children, etc.  But I am not going to sit around waiting for the worst, or assuming the worst will happen.  I understand it "could" happen, but it probably won't, and therefore I think my future is pretty clear.

Quote:
What I am saying, of course, is that who you were inevitably creates who you are in this moment. Who you have been interacts with what is outside of you and change occurs, and that moment leads right into the next moment and it keeps going.

There is no choice. There is an intricate chain of cause and effect continuing onward. Has anyone actually sat down and started observing how their mind works? There isn't some point in time where some entity stops and makes a choice.



I disagree.  You are basically arguing that there is no free will.  That there is only the predetermined future, based on what has happened to us in the past.  I think the past narrows our options down, at times, but we still have free will.

Look, I decide to be a lawyer.  So I'm not going to go to school to be a doctor, right?  That's a choice eliminated due to my previous choice to be a lawyer.

But something else you are saying is that based on past experiences, it's predetermined that I am the person I am now and will go on to make decisions based on my past.

I disagree again.

Explain to me the difference between these two scenarios:

First scenario:  A young girl is molested during childhood, she grows up to be an alcoholic, drug user, and prostitute, as MOST incest survivors will do.  According to your beliefs, it was predetermined that she would become an alcoholic, drug user, and prostitute, because of what happened to her in previous experiences.

Second scenario:  A young girl is molested during childhood, she grows up to be a doctor and a valuable asset to society, as very few incest survivors will do.  This would be inconsistent with your beliefs.  Why didn't she become an alcoholic, drug user, and prostitute, because of what happened to her in previous experiences?  This would be the most typical choices based on her childhood.  What caused this second person to become a doctor?  Could it have anything to do with free will, free choice, to choose not to be an incest survivor, and instead to choose to make something of her life? 

So, I disagree that people's futures are predetermined based on past experience, or in the second scenario, she wouldn't have gone on to be a doctor. 

I have to respond to the rest later.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2555001 -

well hey now I want to reply to this post

but why???


maybe it's because I just saw a couple of people think they solved a REALLY old philisophical question.

the core reason I'm posting is (not because I can, I always could) it's because I read something that made me say "Oh! I could say this..."

but what about that thought? wasn't that mine? didn't I jsut make that up. surely that wasn't dependent on something....or is it?

see I think what is happening is we are confusing the experience to choose too free-choice.


evolving said bullshit alarm. why??? have you never heard that word before evolving? of course you have! so that first time you heard that word had an effect (or maybe even many other times), and you saying those words in the post is the result.

you experienced the choosing of the words "bullshit alarm" by typing it down. but your experience of choosing was jsut another result of one or many causes.

what i think I see is being said is that everything that is done is a cause or an effect, or both.

does that make sense to anyone?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ]
    #2555036 -

"you can still like and do whatever you want to"

so now, why do you like what you like to do?

odd quetion but THINK!

isn't what you like dependent on many factors?

or are we to say what we do and don't like is inherently in us. like we were born with it.

so am I to say that I was born to like broccoli, but hate carrots?

I hated carrots because I got them shoved dowen my throat one time. that was the cause, and me not liking htemn is the effect. if you search hard enough, you will find a cause to every action, and a result of that action. no matter how small.

even if it's your own tastebuds, how your tastebuds accept food in a favorable or unfavorable fasion depends on many factors? do they not?? are you free from cause and effect?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Frog]
    #2555137 -

Frog said:
Yes, I agree with freedom of choice.  Or with free will, as described by Pinky.


And I agree with the experience of freedom of choice, and I recognize that said experience of the freedom of choice is created by the narrowing down of a lot of understanding by the ego, in order to create the illusion of a uniform entity seperate from the system it is in and any thought that doesn't fit in with the ego's immediate demands. I recognize that this issue is much more complex and multi-leveled than meets the eye, and that if there was a simple answer easily stumbled onto, that the debate on this subject would not continue on for ages with the people involved holding such a wide variety of opinions on the matter, featuring a wide variety of facets (or the lack of variety of facets and levels thereof).

Quote:
I disagree.  You are basically arguing that there is no free will.  That there is only the predetermined future, based on what has happened to us in the past.  I think the past narrows our options down, at times, but we still have free will.


Ja, I am basically arguing that there is no such thing as free will, only the experience of it. And I think I am also saying that the future is predetermined. The past just doesn't narrow down our options "at times", the past dictates what we will do in the moment. The action carried out by me in THIS moment was carried out by what position I was in during the PREVIOUS moment. Time flows continously and the chain reaction continues.

Quote:
Explain to me the difference between these two scenarios:

First scenario:  A young girl is molested during childhood, she grows up to be an alcoholic, drug user, and prostitute, as MOST incest survivors will do.  According to your beliefs, it was predetermined that she would become an alcoholic, drug user, and prostitute, because of what happened to her in previous experiences.

Second scenario:  A young girl is molested during childhood, she grows up to be a doctor and a valuable asset to society, as very few incest survivors will do.  This would be inconsistent with your beliefs.  Why didn't she become an alcoholic, drug user, and prostitute, because of what happened to her in previous experiences?  This would be the most typical choices based on her childhood.  What caused this second person to become a doctor?  Could it have anything to do with free will, free choice, to choose not to be an incest survivor, and instead to choose to make something of her life? 

So, I disagree that people's futures are predetermined based on past experience, or in the second scenario, she wouldn't have gone on to be an attorney. 


How is the second scenario inconsistent with my "beliefs"? Who said that being molested was inevitably going to flow into her being an alcoholic, drug user, a prostitute, or all of the above? Those are they typical choices? Tell me, to bring it to a deeper level, WHY are those the typical choices? What variable brought forth the difference between the girl in scenario one and the girl in scenario two? Neither just up and decided which direction they went in. Different experiences and thoughts brought forth the difference.

Your example says nothing and proves nothing that concerns the ideas I am putting forth... they sort of support it if you look at it at a deeper level. You say that according to their past "THIS" should have happened, but instead, "THAT" happened, and that points towards free will existing.

It sounds to me like they were two girls that had a similar experience but had other experiences that led them where they ended up. I don't know, maybe one of them had a caring relative that guided them and instilled in them that negative experiences don't mean you are stuck in some preconceived notion of who they are "suspossed" to be.

There is nothing that said that their future was predetermined by ONLY that incident. Keep looking deeper......  :laugh:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2555452 -

I think your using the concept that existence travels a linear path. In the end, there is only one outcome... We don't know what choices we are going to make, but looking back it's easy to say "I was going to do that"

The point I'm trying to make is your using the idea of a linear path to say we don't have choices. But because we don't know the future we are still free to choose.

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2555992 -

Fireworks, I just disagree that we don't have free will. Maybe I'm stuck in a delusional blind spot that prevents me from seeing what you are able to see, but I don't see how it's been predetermined that I would be where I am today. I will have to go look into this some more, but it sounds as if you are saying I am a puppet on a string. I can't believe that.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Frog]
    #2556168 -

This entire debate is really just revolving around different perspectives, that's all it really is. Perspectives.

I can shift my perspective and believe that Humans are nothing but mere biological robots.

I can view the world as a dark sad twisted negative cesspool--which I don't.

I can think of life as a majestically beautiful journey--which I do.

I can see from Determinist's perspectives that we're merely control-less sailboats being blown around by the winds of cause and effect in the ocean of life--although I don't agree.

I can see from the view of Free-willers that ultimately we are volitionary-thinking human beings and have free will--which I do.

Who's to say that only one of those perspectives is right and all the rest are wrong?

So to you non-free willers out there; If you feel validated in believing that there is no volition and free will is an illusion, then nobody's stopping you. Go for it. Just keep in mind--you're taking only ONE of many perspectives.

I just finished the book "Seeds of Greatness" two days ago and the last entire chapter, was entirely about how perspective plays a vast role in the secret of success. It was a beautiful ending--it actually made me cry, in awe.

Anyways, these are my final thoughts, more or less...on this subject.

PinkSharkMark, keep kicking ass! :heart: :headbang:



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2556216 -

I'm going to go with you, Skorp, and with PinkSharkMark, and then bow out of this conversation.

I do have one last question, though.

If our future is predetermined, this means we are merely puppets. Who is maneuvering the strings? Because what you are saying is that I am just an actor acting out a part that was written for me and none of what I do is of my own volition.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Evolving]
    #2556599 -

Ok, first i'll reply to what kaiowas said:
1. Yes, i am basically describing fate. Determinism and fate are basically the same things, in either what happens is the only thing that could have happened at a given moment. Both have a fixed predetermined outcome due the whatever initial state the system started in.

2. yes the second arguement has quite a bit in common with the one above it. in my posts i have provided many different variations on the arguements to illustrate that no matter how u put it, u still get the same outcome. Determinism doesnt allow for volition, nor does randomness and/or spontinaity. So to refute me u must put forth a logical way for one or more of these to allow volition, or you must put forth an alternate logically consistant possibility.

3. I am not saying that one can not believe they have free will, or claim to experience it. I am saying that the belief is false, and not founded in logic, atleast when applied to absolute reality. It is true for the believer but only in the same way that a lie is as good as true to the person who believes it. But in actuallity it is still a lie.

Finally in response to those who applaude Pink and who state that my arguements are BS. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but the fact remains that Pink did not provide a logically consistant counter arguement, nor show how my arguements are not logically consistant. And simply saying my arguement is BS is not a refutation of the arguement itself, just an opinion, an unsupported opinion at that.
Oh and as far as dropping a rock, and knowing it will hit the ground, u cant know that with absolute certanity, u can know it with 99.99999999999999% accuracy but there is always the chance that the the law of gravity is wrong in some way, even scientists will tell you that none of their theories are known with out doubt to be absolutely correct. And what if u toss the rock in the air, and someone catches it at the very moment when it was between the transition from rising to falling? Your prediction that the rock was going rise then fall to the ground was incorrect. In fact to know with absolute accuracy if a rock would fall when dropped from a cliff you would have to know and understand the mechanisms of gravity in every detail, and it could be argued that not only would u have to know that, but to be absolutely sure you would have to understand how the system itself functions in every detail, and be absolutely accurate in that knowledge, and somehow KNOW you were absolutely correct.

If you agree with the premises that determinism does not allow for volition, and nor does randomness and/or spontinatity, And you wish to refute my arguement then u must put for another possibility, while at the same time showing that none of the possiblilities i put forth are actually the way things are, but instead your new one is.
If u do not agree with one or more of my premises then u must in a logically constant manner illustrate how it is false.

If u cannot do either of these then u cant refute my arguement, istead you are simply stating an opposing opinion, which as i said you are entitled to do, but it doesnt seem right to dress it up as an actual refutation of my argument, when in fact it is just an opinion, not a proof.

For those that think logic is a dirty word or something, maybe it is not perfect, but along with math,it is the closest thing we have to an accurate description of the absolute reality of whatever we are trying to describing.

I can claim to be god, i can really believe that, and for all intents and purposes it will be true to me, but not you, maybe not anyone else. But logic and math are the closest we have yet been able to get to absolute truth.

Are there things that are true yet beyond logic? i dont know, all im saying is that no one has yet come up with a logically consistant counter arguement to mine. I am willing to admit the possibility that ultimate reality is not founded on causation, but if it isnt, and it isnt random, nor spontaneous, then what is it? and how does it allow for free will/volition?

What if everything is ONE, and that one thing is the only thing, and our reality is just an aspect of that reality, and we are just a part of that one thing, ok fine, but if there is one thing, and only one thing or no thing at all, then how does that ultimate reality allow for personal volition. How can i make a choice and someone else make the opposite choice if we are fundamentally the same thing? How did either of us have volition? How did the ONE have volition?

Maybe there is multiverse in which all possibilities are realized each in its own seperate universe. If that is the case then again how do i have personal volition if the cause of these other universes are do to determinism, randomness or spontinaity? If these are not the mechanisms that cause the multiverse then by what mechanism does it come to be? and how does that mechanism allow for volition?

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be.

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Evolving]
    #2556804 -

If your whole arguement for volition is not based in logic then, i can not argue with you. But if that is the case all you are saying is that your belief in volition is just that, a belief, not a fact.

If you assume to tell me that i have volition and wish to demonstrate that as a fact, not a belief to me, then u have to put forth a logical proof, and u have not done that. I believe i have, but it is true that i nor anyone can ever know that with absolute accuracy, just a high degree of it at best.

So that leaves us with serveral possibilities, either my proof is wrong and your assumption is right, but you are unable to support it logically, thus giving me no reason to change my opinion. Or you are right, and have proved in a logically consistant way that u are right, and i refuse to believe it because i choose to, yet am somehow unaware i've made this choice,yet still had the volition to make it somehow even though i didnt know i had volition.

Odd that the definition of volition is conscious choice, yet i was not conscious of my choice, yet still had volition. That makes no sense to me but as u said volition is not founded in logic. Or I am right, have proved i am right and u simply refuse to believe it because you cannot help but do so given the circumstances. Or Facts do not exist at all, and the only reality is the subjective reality of our personal experiences. Or there is an ultimate reality in which none of this is absolutely true and only exists as conceptions, and the truth of the ultimate reality is something all together different, but not simply a subjective reality. It is something we have not yet concieved of.

So basically this all leaves us exactly where we started. With the arguements that free will exists, or doesnt exist, and the arguements trying to define exactly what those concepts mean in the first place.

So the question is unsettled, except maybe on the subjective personal level. Or maybe the subjective level is all there is. Many of those who agree with me will still agree, and many of those who disagree will still disagree, and maybe some people changed their position because they chose to or because they had to given the circumstances. Yet none of us will ever know for sure who was right and who was wrong, at least not at this moment, but some of us will believe we do, or maybe some of us WILL KNOW exactly what has occured and others will just think they do.

Maybe i had to start this thread, maybe i chose to. Maybe u had to reply or maybe you chose to. Whats odd is i think i believe i want to believe in free will/volition, and if i do indeed have it, it seems that i should just be able to choose to believe. Yet though i am conscious of my desire to choose to believe i am still unable to believe, ofcourse my belief in that desire could be a delusion. But how could i consciously choose to believe in a delusion that prevents me from having the conscious ability to choose what i believe? it seems that if i have free will i can somehow be consious of having it with out being aware i'm consious of having it.
I think your right Pink, Free will/volition definately is not founded in logic, if it exists.

Sincerely,
That which is, and consiously thinks he has no choice but to be, but may in fact consiously be choosing to be unconsious of his conscious belief in the opposite.

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2556811 -

Quote:
This entire debate is really just revolving around different perspectives, that's all it really is. Perspectives


thank you. :thumbup:

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ]
    #2556835 -

Your right kotton, but the real question/s is if one of the perspectives in fact represents an ultimate objectively true reality, or if neither do, and is there another possibility that does? Or is ojective reality just an illusion itself?

Sincerely,
Eh fuck it.

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2557550 -

you will know when u die, think u can wait :P

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ]
    #2557597 -

LOL, now thats another question entirely. Is there an after life? if so what is the nature of such an existance? Does it occur in this universe or another, or in another diminsion of this universe or another universe? or in something completely different then a universe all together?

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but be.

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