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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2823777 - 06/24/04 12:48 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

In other news... everything is a complex chain reaction, there is no point in time where some sort of consciousness steps out of time and makes a choice, it all flows like a river. Every single thought we think would not have occured if the thought that preceded it was any different than how it occured. Who we are is intricately defined by external circumstances that formed us, and the interaction between who we are in the moment and what the external world (which isn't actually all that external after all :grin:) proposes. We are only able to "make" one choice in one moment, and who we are entering that moment vs. what that moment entails equals the one choice that was destined to be "made". 

Of course, we still have the illusion of the ability to choose, but one glance at the structure of how it all works shows that it is indeed just an illusion. :grin: Illusion! Illusion! Illusion! Go chain reaction go! :evil:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2824144 - 06/24/04 02:57 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I DID address the issue, but your model is derivative of the 'dependent arisings' of Buddhist metaphysics, whether you are aware of this or not. You see yourself as a sum total of dependent psychophysical causes (Aristotle's 'efficient causes') - impersonal from at least (presumably) your formation in the womb. Your model, like much of Buddhist formulation is 'Existential' - deriving from psychophysical 'creation' - cellular, even neuronal, and for what I can discern, you probably consider human beings to be 'intellectual meat.'

The language that I used - being and ground of Being derives from Western, particularly Eastern Orthodox Christian theology. It is 'Ontological' [ontos=being]. I identify myself first and foremost as a 'being' even before I think 'embodied being' because human beinghood assumes embodiedness, but transcends embodiedness. And since it transcends embodiedness, and is transcendental in nature (I believe completely in the transcendence of the ego: the body-ego, the mental-ego, the various social egos that we assume, etc.) I also believe that we as 'beings' derive our beinghood from the Ground of Being.

Individual human beings are like individual waves. Most people come into existence, grow larger, move through time, diminish and die - just like a wave. Most of us are so busy identifying with our separate, egotistical wave-identities, we plum forget that each wave derives from ONE Ocean. All of us derive from the ONE 'Ocean of Existence' (a Buddhist expression incidentally). We are all ONE in our identification with the Ocean of Existence which is the Ground of Being.

Its NOT what is inherent in our wave nature, but in our connection and derivation from the Ground of Being that defines us, and the Ground of Being contains infinite possibilities. Our wave-nature is time-bound and hence limited so that infinite possibilities cannot 'manifest' in any one being, but if you are 'imagining' free will as the ability to manifest any of infinite possiblities, then you are 'imagining' the common name for the Ground of Being - GOD. Since it is impossible to have GOD's 'data base,' you really don't know if any 'imagination' that you can have is not manifest on some world at some time. You may believe that YOU are just making up random stuff out of your own egocentric little nervous system - your wave-nature - when you may well be randomly sampling existence on other worlds, dimensions, times, universes.

So, are you attuned to the infinitely free will which is of GOD, and do you realize that you can't know or experience all the possibilities through one short-lived wave-nature, although all these possibilities may exist past-present-future? Absolute Freedom is of the nature of the Ground of Being, not beings. Only insofar as we come to identify with the Ground do we attain to freedom - spiritually our freedom outstrips our psychophysical freedom which is bound by the lawful limitations of space-time. Free will for the spirit, determinism for the soul [mind-body]. Both exist simultaneously in a Conjunctio Oppositorum - the paradox of human life - life in GOD and life in nature - life in spirit and life in space-time. Paradox.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2825367 - 06/24/04 09:57 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ZenGecko said:
Deff has it right.
its really quite simple... you dont pick the environment your born into, you dont pick the genetics your born with. Environment has been proven to actually effect the ways some genes are expressed, nutrition even plays a role. the combination of environment and genetics mold the person you are, they CAUSE you to be you, thus everything you do is just an effect of the initial causes that made you who you are. Choices dont exist, just the illusion of choice, same for freedom, atleast freedom of will. If something doesnt cause you to do something, yet you still perform an action/make a "choice" then it is a randomn or spontanious action. You can initiate a random event such as a coin toss but you cant control the out come, you cant even be sure once you decide to toss the coin that you actually will get to,(something might prevent you from exercising your "free" will) you might have an anurism and die just before. You cannot will the outcome of a random event and the initiation of the event is an effect of all the prior events leading to it, not just the events of your life, but of every life, and every thing, from the begining of time till that moment. If the action is spontaneous, well u just CAN'T decide to be spontaneous, or it isnt spontaneous at all, so again no will, no volition. Now if something isnt randomn, isnt spontaneous, and has no cause...how the fuck did it happen? and how did you conciously will it to occur? you willing something to occur is the cause, and something prior to that moment caused you to will it. So each cause has an effect, and each effect is itself a cause and so on and on and on.

So for free will to be real, we need something that allows us to perform a non randomn, non spontaneous event that has no cause. And if we really have true freewill then we should be able to predict the outcome and every effect that outcome will have for all time, or else our will isnt really done. If i perform an action, and the immediate outcome is as expected then ok, but what if that same action set into motion a chain of events that kills someone, maybe even myself sometime in the future. I didnt will that person to die or for me to die, infact i would most likely not want that to happen, but i have no idea that it is even going to occur, so not much i can do. I may have caused this future event but i did so with no conscience will. If i had true free will i would make sure i only willed good things to occur, and only good things to occure because of those things for all time, but i cant do that. I dont have that kind of control...i dont have any control. At best im aware of whats happening, and what im doing, but i'm always going to do what i must do, given all the prior circumstances including environment and genetics and every quantum event, any event period leading up to that moment.. if what i do is not caused by those things then its randomn, or spontaneous, neither of which i can exert my will over. Actually randomness wouldnt apply here unless it is a fundamental aspect of the nature of reality, but either way.. no way for me to exercise my will.

So again for freewill we need the ability to make a "choice" that is not randomn, not spontaneous and has NO CAUSE, yet still be able to perform the action of "choice" without ourselves being the cause, because as we've established all we are is the culmination of every event that came before any given moment, so whatever we do is an effect of the causes that caused us to be us :wink: We need a mechanism, a conception...something to allow free will....and the only thing that i can think of to call this mystical thingy is "MAGIC"  In my entire life i have never seen an event without a cause, or that wasnt randomn or spontaneous, ive never seen a MAGIC event. So without proof of the existance of MAGIC there is no basis to conclude we could possibly have free will. In fact most if not  all evidence says we dont. What we do have is the ability, to ignore rationality, logic and all reason, and believe in something we have no reason to believe in, other then thats the way we want things to be. The catch is...that desire is simply another effect of all the prior causes leading to the moment that desire manifests itself. So if you believe in free will at this moment, or even if you dont... You cant help but to believe it...your caused to believe it..u have no control, no free will not to believe it in that moment. Circumstances may change and thus your beliefs may change, because you are no longer the person that you were. All you really have is uncertainy, but no control over if you believe that or not, can get comfortable with it or not.

So we need MAGIC, but how can we get it? what is it made of? where does it come from? and if it is real, how can we ever really be sure of that, or if we actually have it?

If you invoke God here, then god caused magic, and magic caused free will and free will caused all those non randomn, non spontaneous events that have no actual cause. what the fuck? that makes no sense.... Hell maybe thats how it is...but i've got no reason to believe that.

Oh and swami isnt the two slits experiment evidence that the mere act of observation can cause something to occur, since by looking at the slits, one electron/photon whatever goes thru just one slit, but if you dont look at the slits just the back wall, then it goes thru both causing the pattern of interference which wont occur when looking at the slits?




For what was written I agree. As dogs, cats, and monkey's do not have free will, it is an illusion to truly believe we have it. We are all bound by the same physical confines. I agree.

It is unfortunate we cannot express the limitlessness of our minds. However, we as humans try to do the best that we can and that is what is important.

Thank you and deff for articulating the concept for me,
Peace.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflinePhred
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: psyka]
    #2825376 - 06/24/04 10:01 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

payka writes:

As dogs, cats, and monkey's do not have free will, it is an illusion to truly believe we have it.

Not to derail the topic too far, but anyone who has ever owned a dog or a cat or a monkey will confirm that all three do indeed exhibit volitional behavior... cats especially.

pinky


--------------------


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Phred]
    #2825390 - 06/24/04 10:06 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
payka writes:

As dogs, cats, and monkey's do not have free will, it is an illusion to truly believe we have it.

Not to derail the topic too far, but anyone who has ever owned a dog or a cat or a monkey will confirm that all three do indeed exhibit volitional behavior... cats especially.

pinky




Could you give some examples, please?

--EDIT
Ah, nevermind. This is sort-of swaying from proving free will. However, I agree completely. It is proof that free will EXISTS and we are able to mentally expirence it but we are rather limited physically to express it. Limited free will is an oxymoron, though that is the only way to explain it.

Peace :smile:


Edited by psyka (06/24/04 10:12 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: psyka]
    #2825486 - 06/24/04 10:38 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

"Limited free will is an oxymoron"
No it is not. Free will is just what you can get away with...


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2827032 - 06/25/04 08:04 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

well fuck, i had a nice big post half way written to respond to the latest post, but lost it so i guess i'll go with the short version, u can all breath a sigh of relief...

Pink... We are at an impass...you feel my arguements are flawed, i feel yours are flawed, i guess we just need some other authority that we both consider credible and objective enough to say which of us is right or atleast more right, and point out the errors either of us may have made. I would like to know which of my arguements are straw man arguements in your opinion, and what makes them so.

Mark... We may be in the same situation, but i didnt see in your statement where you proved or explained the things i asked you too. All i saw was you saying "This is how it is" with no logic or evidence to back up those conclusions.

As for what u said about the oneness of it all, our true nature whatever, from what i gathered of that i mostly agree. I have often used that ocean analogy to describe my opinion of the nature of being. We are waves, on the ocean and all there is...is ocean. Bascially we are aspects of the whole, but we are still the whole. Now i grant that the whole may very well have free will, and in that since so do we since we are the whole. But on our level of individual experience as aspects of the whole, we are subject to the will of.. or whatever circumstances the whole finds itself in at any given moment, effectively eliminating our personal free will, or volition. And it is this pratical everyday individual experience... however illusionary it might be that i am concerned with and have focused my arguements on.

I must admit though that it is still hard for me to envision how the whole, or the ocean could have free will. Firstly it seems to work on logical rules, ie physics and whatnot, now our understanding of these is incomplete and likely to be so for some time if not forever, so what we are trying to get at here is the safest bet, the most likely answer because thats all we can hope for.

  Now the whole still finds itself in a set of circumstances at any given moment, if moments even really exist, just as we seem to/or do. If the whole is the causeless cause then the truth of the nature of being exists somewhere in the middle of that paradox and only thru direct and full experience and understanding of reality will we ever truely "get it". The question still remains though, is "it" the way it has to be or can "it" be something else, at its leisure? If it is infinite and thus effectively being all that is possible, couldnt you argue that its inability to be the impossible negates its free will?

I admit thats stretching it, but i still cant understand how limited freedom is really freedom at all. instead i think this concept of freedom is just that, a conception, an illusionary one at that founded in our incomplete understanding of the nature of being, just as i think choice likely is too.

If the whole is its own cause, the cause that caused itself instead of a causeless cause (assuming there is a difference) then every cause after that is just an effect of the initial cause, so basically u find yourself in a loop of causation, yet that loop still effectively eliminates free will, because the whole cant help but be subject to the loop in everything it does or is.

Really i think that freedom and choice are those illusionary conceptions i spoke of based on an incomplete understanding of the nature of being, even determinism may be one, and i think that actually option C is the way it really is..and option C is something entirely different then freewill or determinism and likely beyond us, even if it is possible to directly experience the whole we are still limited by this current mode of existance, thus in life i doubt anyone even the most enlightened will ever truely "get it" and do so perfectly. But i do believe that it is possible to get damn close.

In my own experience i have had moments that i can only say are nearly identicle to the descriptions of satori/kensho/enlightenment that i have heard or read of, though i will not be so bold as to claim it was indeed one of those. And if by chance they were i would still wager they were shallow, or incomplete. Some where drug induced, some through meditation, but all had that feeling of utmost "rightness" that indeed i was "getting it" "this is how it really is" but even in the midst of them i sensed that my understanding however profound, was still incomplete or at the very least tainted by this mode of existance, the mortal coil, or whatever u wish to call it. And i guess this is where i am a hipocrite because dispite my inability to prove the validity of these experiences i still believe in them, and that they are indeed possible and have some validity. Just as you free willers believe in your experience. Yours lead you to one conclusion and mine lead me to another....Neither of us can help believing other then what we believe at this moment :wink:  Now if im wrong in that prove it by changing your position to one in honest and sincere agreement with my own, and do it now...cause if u cant do it now, then where is your free will? :wink:

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2827120 - 06/25/04 08:56 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Well, again, your position is consistently egocentric (as are all of ours, but I am [bracketing] or 'suspending' my perspective). That Free Will (i.e., the Will of GOD) operates through the laws of physics on Earth is true, but this is the only world that WE know. What I was saying is that given the possibility of numberless worlds (not merely planets) levels of created being, dimensions, sub-planes, even multiverses (you know...like the place Homer Simpson went where it rained donuts for example :smile: ), all kinds of possibilities escape our knowledge. We're just here!  Did you ever read 'Flatland,' about 2-dimensional beings who live in a 2-dimensional universe - a plane? When a 3-dimensional human inserts his finger in their plane, a widening band of 'finger' beginning with a point (there is no up or down remember) spreads out before them - out of thin air! It is an epiphany for them - a breaking into their dimension from a Higher dimension - a higher world. Great book, good illustration for us ('Burning Bush,' Pillar of Fire,' and other theophanies being suggested here). Miraculous phenomena that disregard 'our' physical laws that pertain to 'our' dimensional existence, may still be outside of YOUR experience (and mine), but these things should not be evaluated on our limited experiences.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2829914 - 06/26/04 07:00 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Well actually Mark it sound like we are pretty much in agreement. While i argue that for all intents and purposes on this plane we dont have any practical individual free will, i do concede that the truth is likely something wholely different then free will or determinism, or maybe even indeterminism (which only means outcomes cant be predicted, not that you have free will nessasarily) My spelling is horrible.

But anyways seems we agree, its likely option "C"

"Really i think that freedom and choice are those illusionary conceptions i spoke of based on an incomplete understanding of the nature of being, even determinism may be one, and i think that actually option C is the way it really is..and option C is something entirely different then freewill or determinism and likely beyond us, even if it is possible to directly experience the whole we are still limited by this current mode of existance, thus in life i doubt anyone even the most enlightened will ever truely "get it" and do so perfectly. But i do believe that it is possible to get damn close."

Sincerely,
That which is...and cant help but to be. (probably...for all practical intents and purposes on this plane)


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2898905 - 07/17/04 02:58 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

If this were an illusory existence, that is to say, that we are only what appears to be an image of something else.

We can understand what free will is, we know that we can choose for certain things to happen.

If we can understand and know what free will is in our illusion, would we not have the power in this "illusory existence" to utilize our mask of free will to determine or to seek out events... therefore proving that free will is not in fact, and illusion, but very real?


--------------------
What?


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2899223 - 07/17/04 07:07 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Zero... No...Now i'll elaborate....

First im not really sure if i know what u mean when u say "we appear to be an image of something else",  What i believe we are is it, and everything else is it also, but appears to often be something else..if thats what u meant then we agree on that point. But while this "it" as a whole may have free will, and we are it, so by default also have free will. Whatever will the whole has would be a collective will, atleast thats the best description i can form with words. While our individual will is ofcourse a part of this "it" ours is so small compared to the overriding will of the whole that its like trying to swim up a raging river. The total will of the whole is so overwhelming that whatever our personal will may be if we even have it would get swept along downstream like everything else. All we do or dont do is the will of the system as a whole, and everything we percieve is that will in action.

Occasionally, our will may be the same as the systems but thats about the best we can hope for, that and just being aware of what is happening around us. But wether we hope for it, and how aware we are isnt up to us as individuals, its up the the system.

Here is the simplest proof for my arguement againt practical free will on this level of existance...

If you think we really have free will on this level, then "choose" right now to agree with me that we dont. Now here is the catch, nothing i've said or done, or anything period can cause you to change your mind and agree with me. If it does you were caused by something and had no free will. Also you can not randomnly or spontaneously agree with me, because even these events have causes or at the very least u cannot exersise your will over them. If you disagree with the nature of causes, randomness and spontinaity then u first must put forth an arguement why your views are right and why mine are wrong, then how they help to prove your arguement. You cant will the outcome of a randomn event, and the intialization of a randomn even has a cause, such as flipping a coin..u caused it to be flipped and u cant will the outcome, and something prior to that caused u to flip it. a spontaneous event probably has a cause that is not seen and happens at an unpredictable time, or it has no cause and just happens, but still unpridictably and either way u cant will the out come.

So what u need is a forth possibility...and about the best one is MAGIC.  no one has yet described how this 4th possiblilty has come to be, how it works, why we have it, or how we use it. How something happens with no cause, yet is still consciencely willed, yet is also not randomn nor spontaneous, But something else...all they can do it call it free will. if we make a choice then the outcome of that choice is an affect, so our choice caused an effect, we caused our choice, but something had to cause us to choose. So u might as well substitute the word "choice" for cause or effect. something caused something which had the effect of causing me to perform an action(make supposed choice) that had this effect, that effect inturn was a cause of another effect so on and on...

They say its there and they offer the proof look i make choices all the time, or hey i chose to respond to this post..which are not real arguements at all, because my whole arguement is that your "choice" itself is illusion. Saying look your wrong i've got free will because i can choose to reply or not reply to this post is the same as saying look 2+2=5, because as u can clearly see i've written down 5, so 5 must be the right answer. 0 logic in that kind of arguement.

So what is my proof?... if something has a cause, and if something causes you to do something, how did you freely will it to happen? how can u be caused yet free at the same time?, that is illogical (in relation to this everyday experience of reality, possibly not of the whole)(but remember we are talking about our percieved reality, and if we have pracital free will that can be INDIVIDUALY exercised on a daily basis in our current mode of existance)(it is key to keep that in mind)

if it was randomn or spontaneous how did you exercise your will over it? you cant have free will without the will part. Like i said u need a fourth way for there to be free will, something that has no cause, yet is not randomn or spontanious, and u cant just say look the 4th thing is free will, you have to explain the mechanism by which it arises and is utilized in order to counter my arguement. oh and u have to be right :wink: Giving various examples of choices u make in no counter to the arguement that your choices are actually illusions, and what u did, is actually the only thing you could have done no matter how it appeared to you at the time. U did what u had to do given the circumstances of that moment, later the circumstances may be different so your action may be different.

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be.


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OfflineCrazyShroomMan
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2899653 - 07/17/04 01:36 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

So your argument is that since you cant "choose" to shoot fireballs out of your fingers or fly, you cant "choose" to do anything else?

I think your flaw is you are trying to compare things not possible with the human body to things that are possible  :smirk:


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2901360 - 07/18/04 02:07 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

So your saying if i have two choices in life... or even more... no matter which one i pick... is not really my choice?


So must one not care about the directions of ones life if they are to get somewhere?

Depending on the context of your "rules" greatly effects the kind of will you percieve to have in your life. thus altering your view of free will.

Maybe thats faith... i dont know.


--------------------
What?


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2901409 - 07/18/04 02:22 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I think the existence or non-existence of free-will depends on what layer of reality you operate on. If you are in the realm of form and objects, then yes 'You' as an object, including your body and mind, have a certain amount of agency and will. However, if we operate on the more complex and obscure level of reality, there is no person to have free will and everything is chemical and mathematical. The self is the result of biological processes it cannot control.


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2901749 - 07/18/04 07:01 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

i'll just reply to my own post and address some of what the latest posts said...

First i didnt even really say much about how the laws of physics limit any freedom we might have...but if u wanna get into that, how can freedom be limited? the very definition of the word free does not allow for limits. If freedom is limited then it isnt freedom, and yes the laws of physics do limit our freedom. If we had true freewill we should be able to break the laws of physics.

If i come to a fork in a road, i can go left, right, stop and sit there till i die, turn back and go the way i came...or atleast thats how it seems. But when i get to the fork in the road while it seems i have all these options i will actually do the only option THAT CIRCUMSTANCES ALLOW. They cause me to do what i do, and as long as those are the circumstances of that moment, i will do what they dictate. So those other "choices" were not choices at all they were illusions...if they were real choices i should have been able to do them but because of circumstances i could only do what infact i did, and only that.

lets turn the arguement on its head, if in fact we do have individual freewill or volition, the ability in affect to perform an action that has no cause, but involves us conscience level, then you should also be able to peform an action that has no effect. I defy anyone to do this. Everything u do has an effect, because it is the result of causes, and every effect is inturn a cause, that leads to another effect. If you can do something with out cause, consciencely, that is nonrandomn and not spontaneous then you should also be able to peform an action that has no effect. But just sitting here your effecting the entire universe, your breath moves the air, your heartbeats produce sound and motion, even if you will yourself to die, your body will decompose, friends and family will morn, there is nothing u can do or even not do, that doesnt have an effect, thus u were a cause, thus you being a cause was an effect of a prior cause. There is no way around the logic...the only counter arguement is one that ivokes something like magic or the will of God.

Ok so lets look at those...magic first...well if you do something magical would magic be the cause of your action? so how did magic come to exist? something either caused it, so it is just another effect and inturn another cause, or it is its own cause, the best u can hope for is some loop of causation.

Now god or gods will... God gave us free will....so god caused free will, which has the effect of causing us to peform all sorts of free actions, only how can we will something that is caused? If god caused free will then god ultimately caused you to do whatever you did.

Now i've allowed for the system or god or whatever to possibly have free will, and if we are an aspect of that "one" then be default we must have free will too, because we are the "one" and it is us...but on this practical everyday experience of reality we are subject to the collective will of the system..it cant help but to overwhelm our own will. But really i think the one having free will is unlikely too..but it is beyond comprehension so i have to concede the possiblity. But the one still finds itself in a set of circumstances, and it still has the equivelent of genetics...us, and all its parts, that make it up, which effects the nature of the one, and thus influences, causes it, along with its other circumstances (likely the circumstance of being the one thing and the only thing, thus alone in a sense)to do whatever it does. Again at best we are left with a causal loop. you need a causeless cause...in order for free will to be possible, and that may indeed be the nature of the "one" so it has free will, but it doesnt trickle down to us on this level of existance because we are always subject to the will of the "one", so we have freewill in a since because the one does and we are it...but in this mode of being we cannot access it, its basically as if we dont have it, because we cant use it...so what good is it? here/now...NONE...when we are dead, and reintegrated into the "one" possibly we will get to use it then.

Maybe the will of the one does trickle down to us here/now (somehow..magic?) and we get to have free will, but i have seen zero proof for that, i do see all kinds of proof for not having practical individual free will. Saying u make choices isnt proof that they are actual choices, and no one has put forth any logical evidence that supports the claim that their choice was infact a choice and not just what they were caused to do because of circumstances.

If you rewind then entire universe and play it all over again up to the moment of a particular choice, and do it over and over again, u will always make the same choice over and over...or more accurately u will always do whatever you had to do the first time. the thing that circumstances made u do. now maybe due to quantum randomness or something like that you could never rewind the system and play it over again EXACTLY as it occured before, but if anything is different in this new version these new circumstances will dictate your choice, not you. Something must cause/allow you to have free will, but that means that free will is just an effect of something else, and that effect causes you to do something...thats why i find the whole concept of free will illogical and false, atleast in this mode of existance. Its just something we concieved of because circumstances caused us to concieve of, we were duped by illusionary/inaccurate/incomplete experience of reality. Its the greatest lie ever.

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be.


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OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2901757 - 07/18/04 07:12 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I forgot to mention one other possible way for there to be free will.

If in the system every possibility is realized somewhere, basically a multiverse, and there are all these versions of us taking the paths that we did not take here, because their cicrumstances cause them to, then u can in a sense say we have free will because we get to realize every possibility (somewhere/time)...but remember that includes all the things you'd never want to do...so well that really doesnt sound all that free either, and your again limited to what is possible so you have that whole notion of limited freedom again which is an oxymoron, so maybe along with choice, freedom is also an illusion, another conception we've created in our minds to explain how things SEEM to be...but really arent.

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be.

p.s. Still no one has agreed with me without cause. if free will is staring me in the face as so many claim...why cant you exercise it and agree with me without cause, in a nonrandomn non spontaneous way? if its just a given that we have it...prove it...should be easy..and u should be able to do it right now...but u cant :wink:


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OfflineCrazyShroomMan
journeyman
Registered: 05/30/04
Posts: 118
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2901903 - 07/18/04 10:30 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

How about this, we DO have free will, we just (as living creatures) tend to make the choices that we think are the best. And yes this may depend on past events, but were past events not also our choice?

Of course we have free will, just because i wont drop everything ive done in my life to move to the beach doesnt mean i dont. Im just a living organism trying to make best for itself.

Your just so convinced on this no one can show you any other way. The way you are saying it, yes it does sound like we dont have free will. But i think you are just making paradoxes with the human language, always falling back on the cause and effect system, and definitions. I have free will because i KNOW i have free will and no one can tell me different, sure things i have done or are doing affect how i make my choices, but thats ok because i chose how to live my life and i am still choosing how to live my life. Experience speaks louder than words  :grin:


Edited by CrazyShroomMan (07/18/04 10:35 AM)


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InvisibleFloydian
veteran
Registered: 05/14/00
Posts: 1,022
Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2902184 - 07/18/04 01:18 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Ok i've made it through most of this thread although i did skim quite a bit on the last few pages.

The two sides of the arguement seem to be this: either we are slaves to circumstance and have absolutely no control over our lives and the choices we make. Or we have a certain amount of freedom to make choices of our own volition.

I tend to see it as a combo of both of these. We have the freedom to choose but circumstances (that are often totally out of our control) usually dictate the choices we make.

But after reading all the arguements I'm left with one question:

SO WHAT?

Whether you believe we have free will or not what difference does it make? How does one's perspective on this issue effect their life? Even if this ancient debate were finally resolved and we found the true answer, would it make any difference in our lives?


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InvisibleFloydian
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Registered: 05/14/00
Posts: 1,022
Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: Floydian]
    #2902208 - 07/18/04 01:25 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Another thought i had while readin through all the posts.

I find it interesting to see someone like ZenGecko who is so convinced he is a slave to circumstances argue so passionately. It seems to me he is attempting to get people to choose to see things from his perspective and yet doesnt believe they have the freedom to make this choice.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: Floydian]
    #2902267 - 07/18/04 01:52 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Interesting perspective, Floydian.
In retrospect of this debate, a certain rumination has emerged from the depths of thought which revolves around the question of what core values, core emotions, intrinsic psychological intricacies that people, and in this case, the debators, are built upon which drives them towards the specific side of the debate that they intellectually battle from.

In the absence of validated facts, I have a hunch that there is a combination of raw emotions that propell people to take faith in the concept that we have no free-will; for instance, one might find comfort in the belief of determinism if they lack confidence to take responsibility for how they live their life, to take control and make their dreams come true, et cetera, et cetera. A less kinder way to put it would be "an excuse" or "cop-out".

By that same token, those who believe in free-will may hold such beliefs in fear of believing they have no control over what they do and what direction they will take in their life, and so forth.

Before some of you get your thongs in a bunch, I will dictate that I am not applying my observation in all concreteness to everybody, involved or otherwise. It is simply an analytical observation of the psychology behind some of the chosen paths of belief systems.




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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