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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Frog]
    #2557657 -

this means we are merely puppets

Every woman that I have ever talked to says that regular shaving of her legs is a pain in the ass. Do you agree?

If yes, then show a quantum bit of free will and stop. Much less work and more "natural". I am totally counting on YOU to demonstrate this choice-making ability. If you cannot, then I cannot believe in free will.

Come on frog, take the Swami "Hairy Leg Challenge".  :biggrin:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Frog]
    #2557773 -

Frog said:
Fireworks, I just disagree that we don't have free will.  Maybe I'm stuck in a delusional blind spot that prevents me from seeing what you are able to see, but I don't see how it's been predetermined that I would be where I am today.  I will have to go look into this some more, but it sounds as if you are saying I am a puppet on a string.  I can't believe that.


Well, you are where you are today because of where you were yesterday.

I also wouldn't say a puppet on a string. More a stream of water flowing where the terrain inevitably takes it, based on where it began its travels.... but with another dimension of flow within the flow of water (thoughts) that also direct the flow. :grin:

I haven't given a very detailed, quality example because of the length of time and labour that would have to be put into it. However, I have found the perfect example and if these next couple of days play out right, I will craft it.

You say you just cannot believe it. Mind if I ask why? The ideas I propose allow perfectly well for the experience of choosing freely and in fact even explain why we have that experience. It isn't as if you are giving anything up by letting your mind take in the ideas and really examine them... there is no awful consequences for doing so.

I as well think it is a beautiful thing that I can choose which music I want to put on, when I want to eat, who I want to develop a loving relationship with, and where I want to go with my life. I embrace that and live life to its fullest.

But I do understand how there isn't actually a choice I am making and it just a continous flow of thoughts directly dependant on what was going on the moments before and what has been put in me. I have to go now, but I'll be back later. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2557993 -

ZenGecko writes:

Finally in response to those who applaude Pink and who state that my arguements are BS. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but the fact remains that Pink did not provide a logically consistant counter arguement...

Incorrect. I suggest you re-read my first post.

... nor show how my arguements are not logically consistant.

Incorrect. I suggest you re-read my first post. I pointed out the errors in your reasoning. You choose -- volitionally -- not to acknowledge them.

And simply saying my arguement is BS...

I didn't just say it, I responded in great detail to your multiple errors, point by point, line by line, phrase by phrase in some cases, so there could be no confusion about just what point I was addressing. I didn't dodge any of the issues, I didn't paraphrase or twist or distort or misinterpret any of your statements. I even used concrete examples to illustrate a point rather than hide behind the subterfuge of multisyllabic words.

I admit I stopped at the point where you were pre-rebutting the "invocation of God" response, but only because I am an atheist and I wasn't invoking God as a mechanism for free will anyway.

Just what more do you want?

If you feel my points are invalid, you are of course free to volitionally continue to feel that way despite evidence to the contrary.

...is not a refutation of the arguement itself, just an opinion, an unsupported opinion at that.

Your 'argument" that there is no such thing as free will is an opinion, and an unsupported opinion at that. I pointed out that your "support" is contradicted by observable reality. *I* can ostensively demonstrate volition in action. You cannot demonstrate the lack of it.

And what if u toss the rock in the air, and someone catches it at the very moment when it was between the transition from rising to falling? Your prediction that the rock was going rise then fall to the ground was incorrect.

What has the accuracy of your prediction of a rock's flight path got to do with volition? What is relevant is that you --of your own volition -- tossed the rock into the air, and some other human -- of his own volition -- caught it. No one forced you to toss the rock into the air -- you could have dropped it or held onto it or put it down gently. No one forced the other human to catch it -- he could have watched it sail by or hit it with a baseball bat.

What clearer example of volition in action do you require?

In fact to know with absolute accuracy if a rock would fall when dropped from a cliff you would have to know and understand the mechanisms of gravity in every detail, and it could be argued that not only would u have to know that, but to be absolutely sure you would have to understand how the system itself functions in every detail, and be absolutely accurate in that knowledge, and somehow KNOW you were absolutely correct.

Again, just what does this have to do with deciding whether or not there is such a thing as volition? The only relevant part of that whole lengthy paragraph is that you volitionally dropped a rock off a cliff.

If you agree with the premises that determinism does not allow for volition, and nor does randomness and/or spontinatity, And you wish to refute my arguement then u must put for another possibility...

Incorrect. I need put forth no other possibility in order to observe that volition exists.

Let's go back to the transformation of grape juice into wine. You say "It is the work of demons." I say, "Nay, no demons are involved. 'Tis but the work of time." Both of us are wrong. It is the work neither of demons nor of time, but of yeast. If there is no yeast in the juice no amount of time will transform the juice into wine. The fact that the village idiot sitting on the wall listening to us has no third theory to explain it doesn't change the fact that the even village idiot knows that grape juice sometimes becomes wine and he knows likes to drink wine.

...while at the same time showing that none of the possiblilities i put forth are actually the way things are, but instead your new one is.

Every philosopher since the dawn of time with enough sense to pour piss out of a boot before putting it on his foot has eventually come to the conclusion that predeterminism cannot account for volition. You yourself have come to the same conclusion! So why must I prove -- again -- that which we both already stipulate?

The same holds true of randomness. If our actions were truly random, it would be impossible to type "volition" -- instead we would be typing qhgpodur4t pqretybn 4398hh. Again, even you have come to the same conclusion, so there is no need to disprove it -- it is stipulated.

Since we both agree that volition can be explained neither by predetermination nor by randomness, yet we are both self-evidently capable of acting volitionally -- using our dialogue here as undeniable proof of that capability -- then we agree that volition is the result of neither predetermination nor randomness, but something else -- something at present unknown to either of us.

But you seem instead determined to tie yourself up into increasingly recursive knots over the whole thing. "I can't explain it by determinism, nor by randomness, therefore it can't exist." What hubris! What egotism! "I cannot be certain that a rock dropped off a cliff will fall, even though no rock in the history of mankind dropped off cliff has ever failed to fall, therefore there is no such thing as volition." What irrelevance! What a red herring!

If u cannot do either of these then u cant refute my arguement...

Sigh. I don't need to do either of those things. All I have to do is act volitionally. I don't have to disprove your argument with words, I can disprove it with actions. I can toss a rock into your lap, for example.

For those that think logic is a dirty word or something, maybe it is not perfect, but along with math,it is the closest thing we have to an accurate description of the absolute reality of whatever we are trying to describing.

I have no objection to logic -- used properly. You are not using logic properly. For an extremely long time, logic said that bumblebees couldn't fly. Nevertheless, bumblebees flew. No one -- and I mean no one -- could deny the fact that all the known laws of aerodynamics logically proved that bumblebees could not fly. The bumblebees didn't know that, of course, so they flew.

Are there things that are true yet beyond logic? i dont know, all im saying is that no one has yet come up with a logically consistant counter arguement to mine.

Because no counter argument is required. All that is necessary to refute your argument is for someone to act volitionally. It is apparent on the face of it that your argument is as faulty as the argument that bumblebees can't fly. No human has to argue against you, observable reality has already done that.

I am willing to admit the possibility that ultimate reality is not founded on causation, but if it isnt, and it isnt random, nor spontaneous, then what is it? and how does it allow for free will/volition?

To ask what the mechanism of volition may be is a completely different question than asking if volition exists. What is the mechanism? Beats me.

pinky


--------------------

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Phred]
    #2558006 -

pinksharkmark said:
Every philosopher since the dawn of time with enough sense to pour piss out of a boot before putting it on his foot has eventually come to the conclusion that predeterminism cannot account for volition. You yourself have come to the same conclusion! So why must I prove -- again -- that which we both already stipulate?


:rolleyes: The Sun revolves around the Earth. It is clearly evident when you look into the sky. You remain in one fixed point, as does the rest of everything on the ground, but yet the Sun moves as the day goes by. It is clearly observed.

It requires an outside perspective outside of your own experience to realize that the Sun does in fact, NOT revolve around the Earth, but that the Earth is the one doing the revolving. Even though our own experience and observation suggests that the Sun revolves around us. Anyone that has not received and does not comprehend the logical explanation that will show that the Earth is actually revolving around the Sun will continue to take their "obvious" experience that the Sun is revolving around us as the truth. A deeper analysis shows that it is NOT the truth.  :lol:

A perfect example of how our own experience can suggest something as real, despite the fact that it is not actually true. It is impossible to verify an experience as true and actually occuring with the experience itself.

I saw God and he spoke to me. I heard His words and surely knew that it was God. I can PROVE that it was God that spoke to me, and that I actually had heard any voice at all, by the fact that I had the experience. Sorry, but no, you cannot prove an experience with the experience itself. That is illogical.

When I wake up from my dreams, the experiences in that dream are put into context and are shown that they did not actually occur in reality. When I wake up from my individual experience with logic and an outside perspective, I can see that I cannot assume that I am actually making free choices, that I am not exactly acting out of volition. I see the Sun revolve around me but yet I know with logic and perspective that I am actually revolving around it.  :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Phred]
    #2558044 -

I would argue that it is you who does not understand what logic is, or how to implement it, but thats not going to get us anywhere because you'll never believe it, just like i'll never believe that the supposed flaws u pointed out in my logic are indeed flaws.

Im only going to respond to a portion of your post, because the rest of it, infact probably all of it, i've refuted to my satisfaction in my previous posts, even if it was not to your satisfaction.

in your post...

Me:Are there things that are true yet beyond logic? i dont know, all im saying is that no one has yet come up with a logically consistant counter arguement to mine.

YOU: Because no counter argument is required. All that is necessary to refute your argument is for someone to act volitionally. It is apparent on the face of it that your argument is as faulty as the argument that bumblebees can't fly. No human has to argue against you, observable reality has already done that.

Your refutation of my arguement is to say it is faulty because u observe a reality in which u have volition. But my whole arguement is actually that your observed reality is false, so u cant use your observed reality to refute the arguement, u must come up with a reason why your reality is not false, the same way i lined out the arguements for why it was false. Saying its true because YOU believe it is true is not an arguement, its just an opinion.

ME: If you agree with the premises that determinism does not allow for volition, and nor does randomness and/or spontinatity, And you wish to refute my arguement then u must put forth another possibility...

YOU: Incorrect. I need put forth no other possibility in order to observe that volition exists.

You say that my arguements are refuted by observable reality, but in fact my whole arguement is that your oberved reality is a dellusion,(yes im restating my arguement yet again) and i gave my reasons why. Thats like me saying "Look that tree over there is green! and you who happen to be color blind say "No its not!" then i say "prove it" and you say "the proof is, it doesnt look green to me, and since it doesnt look green to me, it cant be green for you either regardless of what you believe" And you will consider that proof enough even if i offer all kinds of scientific evidence as to why it is green, colors being a result of the wavelength of reflected light, bla bla bla, but you'll never believe me because regardless of my evidence, it doesnt look green to you.

This i think illustrates the fundamental point we are at odds on.
You say you can demonstrate volition, by responding to this post, throwing a rock or whatever. And i say that none of those acts are a proof of volition, they are just whatever action you were caused to do at that moment.

If you cant see that saying "look i've chosen to respond to your post thus demonstrating my volition, but i dont know by what means we are allowed volition" is not an actual refutation of my arguement, when my arguement itself is that this act you've performed is not volition, because of all the reasons i stated earlier, THEN there is no point in continuing this. Ofcourse this is just my opinion, like your opinion is that the peformance of an act and claiming it was a volitional act, is itself proof that the act came from volition. Because thats what your saying. Your saying look i've acted with volition thus proving i have volition, when my whole arguement is that the act was not volition in the first place.

Thats like saying look 2+2=5 because 5 is what i've written down as the answer. It doesnt matter that it isnt logical, or i that i cant explain why it equals 5. 5 is what i wrote so 5 must be the correct answer. Your answer of 4 is obviously wrong because as you can clearly see that the observable reality is that i've written down 5.

This is the structure of your arguement. I personally dont see how the absurdity of it escapes you but it seems too. Ofcourse this is just my interpretation of your arguement, which in all probablility u will not agree with, so once again we are left with differing opinions unlikely to be resolved. You will probably put forth some arguement as to why im wrong, i probably wont even except it as a valid arguement, just as u will likely not except any counter arguement i make as valid, because we have completely different ideas of what logic is, and how to apply it, and what constitutes proof and what doesnt, and i am content to leave it at that, if you are.

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be. Ofcourse you wont agree with that, even it it is my observed reality.

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2558048 -

Oh i didnt notice this in fireworks post at first be he basically put forth another example of your basic arguement pinky.

"A perfect example of how our own experience can suggest something as real, despite the fact that it is not actually true. It is impossible to verify an experience as true and actually occuring with the experience itself.

I saw God and he spoke to me. I heard His words and surely knew that it was God. I can PROVE that it was God that spoke to me, and that I actually had heard any voice at all, by the fact that I had the experience. Sorry, but no, you cannot prove an experience with the experience itself. That is illogical. "

You can not use your belief that an experience was valid and true to prove that the experience was valid and true, you have to give reasons why it is that way other then just saying, its true because thats what happened. Ofcourse thats just my opinion, though i dont understand how any reasonable person could argue with it.

Sincerely,
Bla bla bla.

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2559133 -

Quote:
Is there an after life? if so what is the nature of such an existance? Does it occur in this universe or another, or in another diminsion of this universe or another universe? or in something completely different then a universe all together?



yes. all there is, is love. life is an illusion, space and time are nonexsistent.

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Swami]
    #2559354 -

Swami said:
this means we are merely puppets

Every woman that I have ever talked to says that regular shaving of her legs is a pain in the ass. Do you agree?

If yes, then show a quantum bit of free will and stop. Much less work and more "natural". I am totally counting on YOU to demonstrate this choice-making ability. If you cannot, then I cannot believe in free will.

Come on frog, take the Swami "Hairy Leg Challenge".  :biggrin:


Come feel my legs, Swami.  You will see that I exercise free will every day.  :grin:

I think I'll take a picture of them, real close up, and post it.  :grin:

Free will lives!


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2559367 -

I can't believe free will doesn't exist because if it didn't, why hasn't anyone shown proof that we don't exercise free will?  All you have shown me so far is your words that evidence your opinion that free will doesn't exist. 

Show me the proof that I am not acting of my own free will every minute of the day.  Don't use your words.  Show me the evidence.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Frog]
    #2559464 -

Frog said:
I can't believe free will doesn't exist because if it didn't, why hasn't anyone shown proof that we don't exercise free will?  All you have shown me so far is your words that evidence your opinion that free will doesn't exist. 

Show me the proof that I am not acting of my own free will every minute of the day.  Don't use your words.  Show me the evidence.  :grin:


*searches for some responses Frog herself has made when faced with the same point regarding some of her own beliefs* :lol:

What do you mean, the Earth revolves around the Sun, and not the other way around! Where is your proof? Your proposal is ludicrous! We will lock you up now!  :rolleyes:

If you are looking for some sort of undeniable proof from me, you aren't getting it. All I am offering is a perspective from which I have formed out some ideas on the subject, and from which free will really does appear to be an illusion. I'm not concerning my entire life with this, and I'm not writing a book. All I have are thoughts from a perspective that I am trying to honestly make as encompassing as possible... it is your own responsibility to try to look at things from said perspective.

If you want to put together a similar perspective, the best way would be to consider the same things as I am considering and thinking about. There is no way I would be able to get out more than 50% of the thoughts that structure this perspective.. let alone the associated feelings and subconscious connections to memories and past thoughts. If I was writing a book I would, of course, tie in every necessary detail needed for one to, say, get an 80% similar perspective. Your pathway to my perspective is what has been said in these threads. I try to offer as much as I possibly can with the time I have in a manner that gets my point acrossed as much as possible.....

Clear your mind of other perspectives and construct this one. If you are quoting every sentence of my post and replying to it from your own set-in-stone perspective, you aren't set out to understand what others are saying. Understanding others involves taking a perspective outside of your individual perspective (technically, subdividing and expanding your own perspective :smirk:), just like it took taking an outside perspective from ones own experiences to discover the Earth was revolving around the Sun.

But ja..... I have a headache and need a shower. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Frog]
    #2559537 -

Come feel my legs, Swami.

Aw shucks! *Swami blushes bright red*  :tongue:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Frog]
    #2559619 -

Another  perspective:
Non-Free-Willers: We are at History's mercy.

People in middle: We may feel ourselves to be at history's mercy, but we also see ourselves as free-willed agents of the future.

Free-willers: We are free-willed agents of the future.

The beauty of Perspective..

:wink:


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Swami]
    #2559624 -

everytime i read your name, it reminds me of the movie dumb and dumber where they are looking up that bitches number in the phone book. Dude is like "swimmy", "swammy" "swami" "oh! Sampsonite, hah, i was wayyyy off."

hahah dumb mother fuckers

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2559774 -

Those are pretty general perspectives you have listed there, Skorp. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2559841 -

Or an alternative perspective: they are simply basic, sweet and short, and straight to the point. :wink:



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2560073 -

From some perspectives it would seem that something basic and short would belie the insane complexity of the nature of the subject, thus sort of being ineffective at conveying a strong point. :wink:

From what I picked up from those three perspectives you listed, they are dealing with the experience of making choices and living your life. Some of them are stuck in the past and some in between, others looking towards the future and striving to make it the best.... something like that....

Which all fits perfectly in with the experience of free will.... doesn't mean it is isn't an illusion, and doesn't say anything for what is going on in your mind, or why it is going on in your mind.

And what I'm saying doesn't suggst in any way "sucumbing" to the past and living with no control of your life either. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2560191 -

From some perspectives it would seem that something basic and short would belie the insane complexity of the nature of the subject, thus sort of being ineffective at conveying a strong point.

From one of many perspectives of which was used, the perspectives were merely recaps of other perspectives on the free-will/determinist debate in a bottom-line fashion to point out the issue of perspective itself. Hence, no reason to already spell out that which has already been accomplished by other participants of this debate. :wink:

From what I picked up from those three perspectives you listed, they are dealing with the experience of making choices and living your life. Some of them are stuck in the past and some in between, others looking towards the future and striving to make it the best.... something like that....

Depends on your perspective.. :wink:

Which all fits perfectly in with the experience of free will....

Very nice Perspective, mon.

doesn't mean it is isn't an illusion,

Or that the notion of it being an illusion is in itself an illusion? Ahh...perspective. :wink:

and doesn't say anything for what is going on in your mind, or why it is going on in your mind.

You don't wanna know what is going on in my mind... at least, from my perspective. :wink:

The whole purpose was merely demonstrating the matter of perspective, my friend. :smile:

And what I'm saying doesn't suggst in any way "sucumbing" to the past and living with no control of your life either.

Did you have the perspective that the examples of perception were directed to you? :grin:

:wink:


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2560572 -

Everyday i am more and more amazed by people capacity for dellusion, though unfortunately i can not claim to be any different, doing so would likely be a dellusion.

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Swami]
    #2561533 -

Swami said:
Come feel my legs, Swami.

Aw shucks! *Swami blushes bright red*  :tongue:


Witness:



Evidence of the exercise of free will.

:grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2561559 -

Which is what Skorp keeps saying. It's all a matter of perspective. I am going to believe totally in free will, until someone gives me evidence of the absence thereof.

Cheers!


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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( 1 2 all )		 silversoul7 3,259 30 10/23/04 06:35 AM
by fireworks_god

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