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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2902416 - 07/18/04 02:28 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

no!!!! you must take a stance!!!! 


hey so wait a minute since we are going out on long limbs here...how about this one??


we experience what free will is like (so we don't go crazy and so we believe in the lie of seperation from god) but we really don't  have free will.


hmmmmmmmmmmm  :shocked: :confused: :grin: :wink: :3rd_eye: :shrug: :3stooges: :what: :beatup:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: Floydian]
    #2904584 - 07/19/04 07:15 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

ok first....

"How about this, we DO have free will, we just (as living creatures) tend to make the choices that we think are the best. And yes this may depend on past events, but were past events not also our choice?

Of course we have free will, just because i wont drop everything ive done in my life to move to the beach doesnt mean i dont. Im just a living organism trying to make best for itself. "

This means exactly that dont have free will, your always going to do what it is your nature to do, given all the circumstances (evironment/genetics) which have made you who you are, made you have the nature that you do. cause effect, cause effect.... so on and on.

Next....

" I have free will because i KNOW i have free will and no one can tell me different, sure things i have done or are doing affect how i make my choices, but thats ok because i chose how to live my life and i am still choosing how to live my life. Experience speaks louder than words"

If this arguement holds true, then as long as i firmly beilieve im Jesus Christ then i am. Your talking about a subjective truth here. Yes if i really believe it then in my own little world it is true, or perhaps more accurately it is as good as true, the same way a lie is as good as true to the one who believes it.
  But im talking about the existance of free will on an objective level in regards to our every day/current mode of existance as individuals. Now if your argueing that there is only subjective truth, well then thats another arguement, though it may pertain to this one... so if you can prove that no objective truth exists with out a doubt (that in itself would be an objective truth wouldnt it?) then you win :wink:
  As far as pointing out paradoxs, and semantics...these illustrate the failure of language and at times even conception, thats why i do it. But these definitions are supposed to be what we've generally agreed these words mean. But just because there is a word for it, doesnt make it real, beyond just being a conception, quite likely a misconception at that(a lie). The paradoxs may point to a truth that is beyond conception, and that truth may allow for free will, im simply arguing that all the LOGICAL evidence points to us not having any practical degree of Free will in our current mode of being.

Floyd...

It cant be a combination of the two..i see no logical way for the existance of limited freedom...thats an oxymoron...a nonsequiter. The definition of freedom prohibits it from being limited by its very nature...unless you define freedom as just being whatever it is you do, but thats not how we generally think of freedom, thats why i feel it along with the idea of "choice" are  both just mental conceptions created because of an incomplete/inaccurate experience of reality as a whole. More then arguing whether we have these things or not..im saying that they dont even really exist, except in the same way that a lie exists. But as for the rest of what u've said...
  I to find it intresting that i argue so passionately...all i can say is that is my nature, arguing helps me to flesh out my own beliefs and find answers or new questions, sometimes people bring up something i've never realized, and sometimes that changes my beliefs radically...so far that has not happened in this thread, but the attempts have helped me to expand this arguement and my beliefs concerning the subject. But i cant help but do this given all the circumstances at the moment proceding my action. I have to write this post, i couldnt help myself..at best all i can do is be aware of what im doing, but the degree to which im aware isnt up to me, and hopefully i can be ok with the uncertainy of it all..but again thats not up to me. I am who i must be at this moment and could be no one else, and i do what i have to in any given moment given the circumstances. Frankly i wish i did have free will...i just cant buy into it...seems like if i really had it i should just be able to choose to believe in it...but i cant, i've tried. As for what difference it makes...not alot like u said, we are all going to do what we are going to do, and even as one who does not believe in free will i still CANT HELP BUT TO ACT as if i did much of the time...ironic, but logical given the circumstances :wink:

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be.


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Offlinedeafpanda
Stranger
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 984
Loc: Inguland
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2904743 - 07/19/04 09:22 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

So what if freedom was redifined as "ability to do anything that does not violate the laws of nature"? Do you still not believe in free will?

I can't say I have strong feelings either way. There is little real evidence for either view, in my opinion, and I don't think it would make any difference either way.

If it is an illusion, it is a good one.

And if we don't have free will, what is the point? Life is a just a charade, a formality before some foregone conclusion. Someone who knew what determines our actions could predict what would happen at the end of everything, which would make it all a bit pointless, wouldn't it?


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OfflineCrazyShroomMan
journeyman
Registered: 05/30/04
Posts: 118
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: deafpanda]
    #2904880 - 07/19/04 10:33 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Well im convinced.

Im gonna go smoke some pot and enjoy the ride  :rasta:


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InvisibleFloydian
veteran
Registered: 05/14/00
Posts: 1,022
Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2906786 - 07/19/04 11:39 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

So all this prompted me to look up the word "freedom"/ "free" and "will" so i could have a more precise idea of what exactly we are talking about here. Of course there are several entries in my dictionary under these words, but i think these are most relevant to this arguement:

Free/Freedom
1. exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc.

2. the power to make ones own choices or decisions without constraint from within or without; autonomy

Will
1. the faculty of conscious and particularly of deliberate action; the power of control the mind has over its own actions
2. power of choosing one's own actions

Now with that in mind, my interperetation of the definition of "free will" is the ability to choose one's own actions without interference/constraint from within or without.

Now after looking at it this way, the idea of free will is actually pretty easily dismissed. Because the human mind is irrevocably attatched to a physical world that will always exert some level of interference or constraint on ones choices (side thought: even if you experience ego loss or the apparent disolving of attatchment to the physical world under the influence of psychedelics you're still attatched to the physical world  :grin: but maybe that's what makes the experience so amazing is that we get a little closer to actually attaining free will).

So i think i agree that "free will" doesnt exist. BUT I feel that just because "free will" doesnt exist doesnt mean that choice does not exist or that it is simply an illusion. We still have the ability to choose, it's just impossible to do so in a vacuum, so to speak. Meaning it's impossible to make a decision without some external or internal factor playing some role in the decision or choice.

So in my eyes the non-existance of FREE will does not eliminate the WILL or choice. We still have the will to choose amoung the options presented to us in any given circumstance. When i choose which path i will take at a fork in the road, it is still ME making the decision, the choice is not made until ME, MYSELF AND I says I will take the left path or whatever. Sure it's not a "free" choice because countless variables will influence my decision. For example, I might have sensed danger from the right path for one reason or another and since i dont want to be harmed I choose the left path. But the choice still exists and I, ME yes ME made that choice.

I guess a short and sweet way to sum up my perspective is we are not free but we are also not slaves. We do not rule our destiny but our destiny also does not rule us.

And i think that is where most people (as well as me personally) are disagreeing with you Gecko. You seem to take it that one step further and say that choice doesn't exist and that we are helpless and have absolutely no influence over our own decisions whatsoever. I'm not completely sure if this is actually your perspective though, but this was the impression i got while reading through the thread.

Anyway i find this perspective to be quite satisfying and me wonders how it will sit with others. let me know.

Gotta love the dictionary for clearing up arguements like this.  :cool:


Edited by Floydian (07/20/04 02:25 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: Floydian]
    #2907217 - 07/20/04 02:28 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Hmmm, do I spark up some Blueberry or some White Widow - decisions, decisions...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion [Re: deafpanda]
    #2911179 - 07/21/04 03:55 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

no deaf, because then the laws of nature would limit our freedom, and limited freedom is an oxymoron, its completely illogical and false, just a misconception likely founded in our incomplete/incorrect perception of of reality as a whole.

As far as the point of it all...i dont know, my personal feeling is that the system has a will, or a purpose atleast, it may not have a free will, and all this is unfolding as the will/action of the system, so wether we believe in free will or not, we will still always do what we must do given the circumstances. Your going to get hungry, so you will eventually eat because u dont want to die, or u will let yourself die because the circumstances have made that desire stronger then the will to eat, u will alway do what u must do given the circumstances, regardless if u believe in free will or not, at best all u can do is just be aware of whats happening, how aware, enjoying it or not, isnt up to you..all u can do is be, and do whatever it is u must.

and whichever if any swami will smoke will be what he had to do, he only has the illusion of choice, given exactly the same circumstances he will alway perform the same action, not choice...choice is an illusion, we just made up the whole idea of it, based on how things seem to be at first glance...or how we want them to be...we couldnt help it..it was caused to be :wink:


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Phred]
    #6821098 - 04/23/07 12:15 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

bump


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OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Phred]
    #6821133 - 04/23/07 12:22 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

If a coin is tossed,
and no one sees the resultant landing before the coin is tossed again,
was there ever really a coin toss result at all....?

HHhhhmmmmmmm....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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