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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Registered: 06/30/03
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The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief
    #1796392 - 08/09/03 09:31 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I would just like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that the very nature of beliefs and Faith make them both completely unprovable.

When I say I "know" something, its provable in some objective way. When I say I "believe" something, the use of the word "belief" neccesarily connotes that I can't prove it.

Beliefs can be questioned, certainly- disproved, definitely. It was once the belief of many on this planet that the Earth is flat. This was disproved once when someone sailed around it without falling off, and again when we managed to get off this lousy rock and photograph the whole damn thing from space.

Beliefs cannot, however, be "rationalized". Belief and knowledge are two very different things. Beliefs are assertions that can neither be proved nor disproved with the current information available to us.

I believe in God. Can I prove it objectively? No. Can it be disproved? Also, the answer is No. It is unfair for someone to ask me to prove the existence of God if it cant be proved that it does NOT exist.

Anyway, my point is that anyone who asks a person to rationally justify their faith is completly missing the point.


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peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1796582 - 08/09/03 10:47 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

This is why beliefs suck.
Beliefs are, fundamentally speaking, mental roadblocks.

Question Authority... but only if said authority doesn't agree with you?
Fuck that! I say NEVER STOP QUESTIONING (short breaks are okay though).


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: Sclorch]
    #1796604 - 08/09/03 10:55 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

i was doing good for a while... with the whole knowing thing. But then i was crushed by something. And i felt that i didnt know anything anymore. Its like all that i thought i "knew" just crumbled, and i was left to just try and cope... to hope... be believing and trusting in a force. But i dont think there is any diagnosis for that. Shit happens, and you gotta pick yourself back up i guess.


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What?


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1796626 - 08/09/03 11:07 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

"This is why beliefs suck."

Well, if that is your belief, I will respect it, but personally, I disagree.

I would say there are both positive and negative beliefs.

Many people in the east believe in reincarnation. People who believe in reincarnation have a vested interest in preserving the planet, because they believe they will come here again.

Many people in the west believe you only get one life to live here on earth. They have no interest in preserving the planet, and often the goal of their lives is to see who can consume the most resources before they die.

Of course, there are negative sides to positive beliefs and positive sides to negative beliefs, but the point is that a properly applied faith can have a beneficial effect on both the individual and his environment.


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peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1796638 - 08/09/03 11:12 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

yeah man, excellent post!

i think the fact that we live on a round earth that we can sail around without falling off must have been completely mind-boggling when they first found that out.  i mean, that would be a major belief that was completely shattered.  growing up and knowing that the earth is round is much easier to accept and visualize than it would be to grow up thinking the earth is flat only to suddenly realize it is round.

anyway, yeah... good post! :laugh:


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Namaste.


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1796658 - 08/09/03 11:24 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I believe in Purple three winged bandersnatches that breathe fire, eat tachyons and crap out kitty litter. Can I prove it objectively? No. Can they be disproved? Also, the answer is No. It is unfair for someone to ask me to prove the existence of Purple three winged bandersnatches that breathe fire, eat tachyons and crap out kitty litter if it can't be proven that they do NOT exist.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: Autonomous]
    #1796692 - 08/09/03 11:35 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I agree :smile:


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peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1797128 - 08/10/03 02:39 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Many people in the west believe you only get one life to live here on earth. They have no interest in preserving the planet, and often the goal of their lives is to see who can consume the most resources before they die.



I don't believe that, because even us evil western people want our offspring to live a good life.

But I agree that beliefs can have both positive and negative effects, and I think many negative effects come from beliefs that involve unnecessary and highly speculative ideas, because they sooner or later tend to interfere with true knowledge about reality.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1797172 - 08/10/03 03:03 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

When I say I "know" something, its provable in some objective way.




I agree with 99% of what you said very well.
But.. since few people get interested in a play or movie until there's some conflict, let me gently take issue with the statement above.

There is such a thing as subjective knowledge. Something may be evident to you, but cannot be proven to others. For instance, love. If you ever loved someone, or some *thing*, whether it be a book, the search for truth, whatever..you *knew* for yourself you were in love, but it is really provable to others? Does that reduce it to a mere belief then?


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: Jellric]
    #1797337 - 08/10/03 04:56 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

^^yeah, I agree with that, but its farther than I'm willing to go with some of the people on this board.


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peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1797357 - 08/10/03 05:13 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

"I don't believe that, because even us evil western people want our offspring to live a good life."

Some of us do. Maybe you do. Maybe your parents did. But you wouldn't believe how many parents I meet who have a completely negligent attitude towards parenthood. I could go off on a rant for two pages about it, but I won't.


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peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: Jellric]
    #1797369 - 08/10/03 05:21 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

you *knew* for yourself you were in love, but it is really provable to others? Does that reduce it to a mere belief then?



I like to think of knowledge as conditional. Like, given that X is true, I know that Y is also true. If I really were in love, then my memories and reports of this are true. Some conditional knowledge has your entire existence up until now as the precondition, and that's the knowledge we think of as subjective experience.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1797428 - 08/10/03 06:25 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

We have certain laws here that prevent certain things from happening; walking through walls, moving faster than humanely possible, etc. What if there was no wall? You wouldn't be walking through it, because it wasn't there. Walking wouldn't even exist, you wouldn't exist, which technically means you could do anything termed impossible, because you wouldn't exist.
It isn't rational, thoughts like this, and that is a good thing. You can use irrationality to "win" in rationality. I myself couldn't walk through walls, I know it is technically possible, but there is a lot of truths in my head that contradict that, my mind would have to be extensively reprogrammed to accomplish this, you would have to believe you could walk through a wall just as you believe you have the ability to simply walk...
Yes, I watched the Matrix for the first time last night, and I have learned a lot. A lot of people, I guess, never fully understand it the first time they saw it, but I understood it.
Belief is King, Belief is the key. One simple thought that it is not makes it not. Free your mind, FREE YOUR MIND! Muhahahahaha.
....all this pain is an illuuussiiionniioonnionnnn....
Peace.


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlineneutralizer
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1797442 - 08/10/03 06:46 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Watch it a few more times, if you're bored just throw it in the player and have it for background noise. I get a better picture of it each time I do that.


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There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


Edited by neutralizer (08/10/03 06:47 AM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: neutralizer]
    #1797509 - 08/10/03 08:13 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, I am sure there are parts I missed and all, but for the most part, I followed completely.
Ahh, revelations. So sweet and enlightening.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1797654 - 08/10/03 10:27 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Yep, why would anyone argue against another's belief? That's what the word kind of implies. Society seems to take this right and wrong things a little too seriously sometimes. isn't it odd how some words mean different things just because of the point of view. the english language certainly is a messy one :smile:

" was doing good for a while... with the whole knowing thing. But then i was crushed by something. And i felt that i didnt know anything anymore. Its like all that i thought i "knew" just crumbled, and i was left to just try and cope... to hope... be believing and trusting in a force. But i dont think there is any diagnosis for that. Shit happens, and you gotta pick yourself back up i guess."

hey it's all good. The way I've experienced things, I'm always rebuilding my foundation. There's always something new to learn because there's always a different perspective. isn't it amazing how a lot of people convey the same ideas but in different ways? btw what do you mean by trusting in a force? 


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineSpokesman
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: kaiowas]
    #1797678 - 08/10/03 10:46 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Yea i have very strong belives about human nature and our beginings and structer it around scientififc research, but who am i to say science is always right? Even deeper, who am i to say there is a human nature and that reality isnt just a dream, or that we ever even had a past? Therefore i can never force my beliefs on anyone, i just like to open their minds to think outside religion and standard interpitation of history. Thats why i dont preach about what i belive, i only question their own beliefs and alot of times can never get an answer, leaving the person seeing how fragil the structer of their belief is. And thats when i walk away feeling i have a purpose of existance while the other person mumbles about how i should be in a mental hospital.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1797778 - 08/10/03 11:55 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

DoctorJ writes:

Anyway, my point is that anyone who asks a person to rationally justify their faith is completly missing the point.

Correct. Faith and Reason are incompatible, and are in fact opposites. There is no point trying to discuss Faith in a rational manner, since it is by definition non-rational. You just piss off the person of faith and frustrate yourself.

pinky


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: Phred]
    #1797852 - 08/10/03 12:34 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

If your ultimate goal is knowledge, then faith is definately damaging.

If your ultimate goal is happiness, then faith may be just what you need.

Faith is the act of forcing yourself into ignorance.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePyronate
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: Phluck]
    #1797915 - 08/10/03 01:01 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Faith is the act of forcing yourself into ignorance.




Precisely so.


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"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom... keep that in mind at all times."

--Bill Hicks (RIP)


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