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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: *cough* EXISTENCE *hack* [Re: Phred]
    #2444124 - 03/17/04 04:50 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I have thought through what you said.
your response tells me that perhaps I was unclear in my last post.

as I indicated, there is nothing wrong with relying on your senses to build a "provisional" worldview. I do it all the time. but if you are questioning the efficacy of sensory input to arrive at absolutes, at some point you have to rely on something other than the senses to avoid cirular reasoning do you not? so you asked - what then do we rely on? some traditional thinkers would say that we should rely on philosophical examination. but they also admit (whether they realize it or not) that philosophical concepts are ultimately contingent on sensory input. as you said - senses are the starting point.

so where do we go from here?
why go anywhere? some people desperately seek absolutes - a safety blanket against the cold reality that is essentially and ultimately unknowable and in flux. some people want to build a house of cards and "make it all fit". but I ask; what's wrong with a provisional worldview? I'm perfectly content in relying on my senses to build an incomplete and flexible reality, like the proverbial reed that bends in the wind and stays whole, while the oak tree snaps like a twig and lies shattered in the aftermath of the storm.

when I pointed out that human perception and human reasoning cannot arrive at absolutes, maybe you assumed that there was something else I relied on to get there, like divine revelation. no. my point was that there is no there there.

I am agreeing with you that the senses are the foundation of our reality, and as such, a provisional reality is all we have.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: *cough* EXISTENCE *hack* [Re: Phred]
    #2444386 - 03/17/04 06:19 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Pinky, can I have one of those marbles that you are handing out? I will take a "moonie" if you have one...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: *cough* EXISTENCE *hack* [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2444510 - 03/17/04 06:51 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I'm perfectly content in relying on my senses to build an incomplete and flexible reality, like the proverbial reed that bends in the wind and stays whole, while the oak tree snaps like a twig and lies shattered in the aftermath of the storm.




Nothing in the world is more flexible and yielding than water. Yet when it attacks the firm and the strong, none can withstand it, because they have no way to change it. So the flexible overcome the adamant, the yielding overcome the forceful. Everyone knows this, but no one can do it.
~Lao Tzu



:wink:


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Offlinefalcon
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 8,042
Last seen: 7 hours, 16 minutes
Re: *cough* EXISTENCE *hack* [Re: buttonion]
    #2445530 - 03/17/04 10:53 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

So when you say that something exists, what are you really saying about that thing?

That it is a something.  That it is. It is a something. Is it not something? How can it not be something? There are somethings. It is a thing that can be called a something. There are some things. Some things are called somethings. It is one of the things called a something. It is this thing that I call a something.  You recognize this as a something.  I recognize this as a something. You call this a something. I call this a something. There are some things that can be recognized as somethings.  We can share this recognition of these things called a somethings. :crazy2:

Thank you Dr. Suess and Donald Rumsfield.

Can you write a shopping list? If you can this is the kind of question you should avoid.  If you do not avoid this kind of question you are apt to end up in some deep shit that leaves unable to write a shopping list.


--------------------
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I have done it before and it never has an effect on the true believer so what is the point?



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OfflineFrog
Warrior
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: *cough* EXISTENCE *hack* [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2445919 - 03/18/04 01:08 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Quote:

I'm perfectly content in relying on my senses to build an incomplete and flexible reality, like the proverbial reed that bends in the wind and stays whole, while the oak tree snaps like a twig and lies shattered in the aftermath of the storm.




Nothing in the world is more flexible and yielding than water. Yet when it attacks the firm and the strong, none can withstand it, because they have no way to change it. So the flexible overcome the adamant, the yielding overcome the forceful. Everyone knows this, but no one can do it.
~Lao Tzu



:wink:





Cool.  I am prompted to tell a story.  :grin:

I had a date, once, with a guy who was looking to get married and have kids.  I had already had five kids, so needless to say, we weren't a match. 

However, he told me something that I thought profound.  He asked if I would rather be the rock, or the water running around it.  He later explained, after I made the wrong choice, that it's better to be the water, because it is steady and can flow around any obstacle, without being disturbed, whereas the rock, no matter how unyeilding, will eventually be eroded by the water.

We should all be the rock, eh?

Edit:  Oh, fuck, I meant "water".  We should all be the water.  Ahhh, fuck it.  Hate the brain reversal thing.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

Edited by Frog (03/18/04 01:51 AM)

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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension Flag
Re: *cough* EXISTENCE *hack* [Re: Frog]
    #2445941 - 03/18/04 01:27 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

"Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way round or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves.

Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water... You put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot... Now water can flow, or it can crash, be water my friend." - Bruce Lee


--------------------

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OfflineFrog
Warrior
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
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Re: *cough* EXISTENCE *hack* [Re: Shroomism]
    #2445975 - 03/18/04 01:50 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
"Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way round or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves.

Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water... You put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot... Now water can flow, or it can crash, be water my friend." - Bruce Lee




Thank you, Shroomism, for clarifying. That sounds more along the lines of what he was saying.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: *cough* EXISTENCE *hack* [Re: Frog]
    #2446244 - 03/18/04 05:46 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Assuming all Water-H20-Wisdom innately comes from Old Asians,

You were dating HENRY??? :crazy:

:wink:


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: *cough* EXISTENCE *hack* [Re: Ped]
    #2446262 - 03/18/04 06:01 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but "I" (;)) read your big reply you just made and I totally understand it and agree with it. :thumbup:

I value the knowledge that we are just one little variable within a system wherein all variables are interacting and are dependant on each other. I think that holding onto our individual perspective too much and treating ourselves as distinct and seperate from this dependant system and all it includes is sort of egotistical (read: protective of something that one is afraid to lose).

Quote:


Buddha presented the Madhyamika this way not because he knew it would sell as a "pain pill", but because he understands that our own essential nature is a harmonious one, and that the only way to uncover that harmonious nature is to resolve the dissonance between ourselves and our experience of reality. Since it is our own essential nature which is harmony, and since we ourselves are inseperable from the complete picture of reality, that which is true must be that which brings us closer to our harmonious essential nature.




Indeed. :wink:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Anonymous

Re: *cough* EXISTENCE *hack* [Re: Ped]
    #2446410 - 03/18/04 07:47 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: *cough* EXISTENCE *hack* [Re: ]
    #2446435 - 03/18/04 08:00 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
Similarly, the last purpose has been to inform others that the errors you are teaching are dangerous.




:lol:

I've never found anything Ped has said to be an error.... and certainly not "dangerous".  :smirk:
Peace.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflinePed
Interested In Your Brain
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
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Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: *cough* EXISTENCE *hack* [Re: ]
    #2446797 - 03/18/04 10:57 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

>> I "got it" a long time ago

For the sake of future discussion, then, please articulate back to me the idea you're responding to before composing your rebuttal.


>> Most of us know, and acknowledge, that the universe existed before our consciousness. Since that is the case I would like to you explain your position about that.

That time is statically linear -- is this not an assumption?

We understand that electricity cannot flow from a battery until a circuit is completed. When a battery sits at rest, there is a positive terminal existing in space on the right, and a negative terminal existing in space on the left. When an avenue through space is made available for these two terminals to become joined, the potential energy of the battery then becomes kinetic energy, and a phenomenon occurs. This is a three-dimensional phenomenon.

We can view conciousness and the existential plain in much the same way as these two polls. There is a highly organized physical being capable of harbouring conciousness existing in time on the "right", and a receptive existential plain existing in time on the "left". When an avenue is made available for these two terminals to become joined, in this case through time instead of space, the potential energy of this cosmic unit then becomes kinetic energy, and a phenomenon called the "cosmos" is born with a tremendous bang. This is a four-dimensional phenomenon.

At present, this is how I explain the seeming self-perpetuation and self-origination of the universe. It should noted that this view is one of personal speculation, and is not a view which has been imparted to me through my studies. I understand that it is a paradoxical view, and that is precisely why I hold it as a promising one worthy of further contemplation.

We can explore the relationship between mind and reality by considering what it would be like to possess a mind absent of an existential plain for us to interpret. We have discussed this before. It is very simple for us to imagine the cosmos going on without us, because we conceive of ourselves as islands of conciousness behaving as perfectly passive recipients of an aggressive reality. We are mistaken in this view. There is nothing about any object of investigation which informs us of it's existence from it's own side. It is only mind which constructs and imputes the nature of objects, and therefore it is mind which is the aggressive creator of a passively unfolding existential plain. Imagine for a moment, though, that we were islands of conciousness floating amidst a formless, shapeless, colorless void of non-existence. What is the function of mind in a place like this? Can we fathom even for a moment?

In short, mind and reality are the same entity and are mutually dependent, with mind as the aggressive creator of objects of knowledge, and reality as the passive recipient of our individual and conventional imputations. At present, our experience informs us that mind and reality are dualistic phenomenon, with reality as a "box" filled with aggressive objects of knowledge, and mind as the passive recipient of those objects of knowledge. Clinging to this dualistic worldview, science has concluded, in lieu of any other more plausible explanation, that the momentum of the universe came from nowhere in particular, and gradually dissipates into nowhere in particular.


"It is a primitive form of thought that things either exist or do not exist."

-- Sir Arthur Eddington


>> Without the raw information provided by our senses -- the percepts the senses provide -- upon what are we to exercise our wisdom, insight, and contemplation?

Nothing at all, of course. I had said in my reply that our sense should be our tools, not our teachers. This was a means of suggesting that rather than assuming the sensory data receive to be infallible, we use that information as the object of our investigation, as the laboratory rat upon which to test our wisdom, insight, and further to our contemplation.


>> The senses are not the teachers, true. The senses merely provide the information -- it is up to us to order that information through the exercise of our rational faculty -- the mind.

On this point, we agree completely. It's through this process compounded upon many others that we, if feeling so compelled, seek the divine revelations that we desire.

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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: *cough* EXISTENCE *hack* [Re: ]
    #2448606 - 03/18/04 06:46 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Mr Mushrooms, I was losing faith in your claim that you would come back later and post stuff on this thread......

shows how much *I* know..


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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OfflineFrog
Warrior
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: *cough* EXISTENCE *hack* [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2450006 - 03/19/04 12:03 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Assuming all Water-H20-Wisdom innately comes from Old Asians,

You were dating HENRY??? :crazy:

:wink:





Henry ain't so bad.  :grin:



Henry at the Pumkin Jam party.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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