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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Swami]
    #2551724 - 04/12/04 04:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Its what filters greed from creativity (generally speaking of course).


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflineFrog
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Swami]
    #2551728 - 04/12/04 04:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

No, because we can still do whatever we want, if we don't mind the consequences.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2551736 - 04/12/04 05:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I disagree. You may think that because of my previous choices, my future is clear. However, I have the freedom of choice to change my present, regardless of what happened in my past up until this moment.

I think the future of any given person is "predictable" based on his past choices and experiences, but at any moment in time, any one of us can elect to do something completely different from what we are doing.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Anonymous

Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Frog]
    #2552326 - 04/12/04 11:24 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

you guys are confusing the bars that society has on you as limiting your free will....society has nothign to do with your god given free will, you can still like and do whatever you want to, but in society you will have to deal with the consequence(if bad). it has nothing to do with the spiritual. Why are you blaming our very own society for lack of free will, you are totally missing the point. We can still do whatever the fuck we want to, there is nothing stopping you but your very own will.

its like i said it is more complex than u think. Like before we even were born we chose this life, so despite your knowledge of it, you chose to be born into whatever conditions you are in now that have shaped yoru values, you put yourself in the place of society that you are in now which have an effect on what you like, but you can change what you like, its not 'programmed' into you that you HAVE to like this or HAVE to like that....we are not fucking robots. I may like mainly ICP, but i can like ANYTHING if i want to, but i love icp becuase they are the fucking shit, the wisdom they spit behind the wicked raps is the shit, and i love it, but i also CAN love any kind of music, because if there is but 1 person in this world that likes a certain kind of music then there is a reason they like it and i try to feel the music for what it is and i can then like the music, even if it isnt my favorite i can still enjoy it, i choose to. We are all one, so if one part of me loves something, then i know i can and do love it too.(probaly over your head swami)

We have free will. it is not an illusion.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ]
    #2552438 - 04/12/04 11:43 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Kottonmouth said:
you guys are confusing the bars that society has on you as limiting your free will....society has nothign to do with your god given free will, you can still like and do whatever you want to, but in society you will have to deal with the consequence(if bad). it has nothing to do with the spiritual. Why are you blaming our very own society for lack of free will, you are totally missing the point. We can still do whatever the fuck we want to, there is nothing stopping you but your very own will.






Um, I totally agree with you, kotton. Read my post again.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Anonymous

Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Frog]
    #2552445 - 04/12/04 11:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

wasnt talkin to u, i know i replied to u and all....but it was easier to just reply to the last message i read :P sorry for any confusion


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2552701 - 04/13/04 12:50 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Ok, it seems no one on the free will side has addressed the questions i posed. If u make a "choice" say between chocolate and vanilla ice cream. suppose chocolate is your favorite, if put into that situation over and over again your likely going to pick chocolate more then vanilla. so the first time u have this choice, u go for chocolate, because its your favorite, now why is it your favorite? because of the chemical interaction with your taste buds, because maybe it was the first flavor u ever had and fond memories are attached to it, maybe u think chocolate is just cooler then vanilla, none of these reasons or groups of reasons really matter the point is, there are always reasons/causes for you to take one action over another, and in that particular instance the action u took is the only one u could have given the circumstances at the time of the "choice".

Now maybe after picking chocolate a 100 times your bored with it, and want something new, the reason u want somthing knew is because your bored with it, since u've had it a 100 times in a row, this boredom is an effect of repeatedly having the chocolate, and it is also the cause or one of the cause that will now lead you to pick vanilla the next time. It appears that next time u could still pick chocolate...but u wont. because the circumstances will not let u this time. just as in the prior 100 times they would not let u pick vanilla.

No one addresses the fundemental question of how u can make a choice, that is not random or spontaneous, yet also has no cause.
you may not be aware of all the forces that make you to take one action or another, but they are there, if there is no cause then there can be no effect, no action. if you take a random action or even spontanious action, your will was not involved, you cant will a random or spontaneous event to occur, and unfold just as you intend it to. Both will have an uncertain outcome until the actual outcome is observed.

You dont know that i'll wake up in the morning, how ever great the odds are that i will there is a chance that i'll have an anurism and die in my sleep, and no amount of willing on my part is going to stop that. If it did then i would have free will. i could will myself not to die..ever. i could will my self to fly and shoot fireballs regardless of the laws of physics, but if there is one single factor that limits my freedom then i really have no freedom at all. it doesnt matter how many choices there SEEM to be, at each moment i will be forced to choose (forced to choose? the word choose doesnt belong there, replace it with "take action") based on the current circomstances i find myself in.

Nobody on the pro free will side seems to be able to address the fundemental questions of how can freedom be limited, and still be free? and how can something have no cause, yet also not be random or spontaneous, thus allowing free will. In fact random and spontaneous events generally have causes themselves. if i flip a coin and initiate the random choosing of heads or tail, i am the cause of this random event occuring, and i flipped the coin for a reason, i was caused to flip it, but i have no control over the outcome, no matter how much i will it to come up heads. even if the cause/reason was just that "i wanted to do it" there was a reason i wanted to, something caused me to want to. i could not of chosen to not want to given the circumstances at that moment, because the forces to cause me not to want to, were either to weak compared to the stronger forces that caused me to want to or they were nonexistant at that moment.

And for those who think that much of this is arguing semantics your absolutely right. Words have different meanings in different contexts. We use these meanings and groups of meanings to describe our reality, but they are inadequate. We may be able to concieve of free will, we have words to describe it, but the fact that we can concieve it doesnt make it real. The truth is that most of us really dont understand all the implication of our conceptions, or of the words we use to describe something. example... Most people agree that god is perfect. but assigning that trait to god has certain implications, and your idea of what perfect means is paramount here. is perfection that which lacks nothing? is perfection that which is all good? if thats the case then by the other definition your definition is wrong, because if it lacks bad, and only has good, then it lacks something thus it is not perfect. Then u can get into what good and bad mean, or u can argue that there is no actual good or bad, only what we like or dislike. All of these are conceptions, and all of them are relative, and which ones you ascribe to determine your experience of reality. BUT WHAT IF YOUR WRONG??? no one may be right, or atleast not completely right, but that doesnt me that a right, or absolute doesnt exist. The fact is we will never know if we are right, or if there is a right, and if there is what that right is.

So lets say that the words "free", or "freedom" do not mean that which is without limit, or the ability to do whatever u want without limit. There are limits ok, so the words mean something like "the ability to take whatever path/action you want out of the available paths/actions", yet there is nothing that causes you to want one action verses another, for if there were you wouldnt have any actual options, you'd just be caused to do whatever u do. Ok so lets say i find myself at a fork in the road. i can go right or left, i can stop and remain where i am for some amount of time then take a path, or i can turn around and go back the way i came, or just stand there till i die, or the end of time.

luckily i have a map with me, and i know that the strip bar is down the left road, and the strip bar is where i want to go. I want to go there cause i am attracted to hot naked women, because my biology and neural chemistry and the environment in which i was raised has all come together to produce this person that is attracted to hot naked women and that causes me to want to go to the strip bar. so which path will i take? fuck, left ofcourse, i already have my dollar bills in hand, and a long shirt so no one can see my boner.

NOW, it appears that i could have gone right, or stoppped for some time, or turned around, but the point is, while it may have seemed i could do those things, i wouldnt, i couldnt because all the prior and current circumstances made me go left. if you rewound time over and over and played that senerio out over and over EXACTLY how it occured the first time, i will always go left. i will go left till the circumstances are changed in a way to cause me to go right, or stop or go back, but if we are replaying it all EXACTLY as it happend the first time, then circumstances will never be different, thus i'll never take a different action from my original action, and i never could have regardless of how things appeared to me.

Now maybe at the strip bar a fat chick hit me in the head with her nasty tits and traumatized me. Next time given all the circumstances at this new moment, and especially this new circumstance of being traumatized by the fat girl's tit, i "choose" as u all would say to not go to the strip bar. But i didnt choose, in order for me to choose one action over another something must cause me to take one action over another, if not then i've spontaniously or randomly or both, taken an action. And u cannot will the outcome of a random action, u cant choose/will the time a spontanious action occurs, nor predict/will the outcome with absolute accuracy in either the random or spontanious event. And if something caused me to choose, then i really had no choice, i just did what i had to do.

So it doesnt matter that u had all this limited freedom, all these other paths u could have taken, because you wouldnt take them, ever as long as the circumstances were the same as the time you made your inital choice, or more accurately took your inital action. Next time circumstances may be different, thus causing a different outcome, in fact from moment to moment the circumstances will always be slightly different then the prior set of circumstances, and u always seem to have all these various options at any given moment, but u will only take the option that the circumstances dictate you take, thus u had no free choice, not even a limited free choice, because given those set of cirumstances u never would have taken one of the other appearent yet non real/accessible options. So what good are all these options if you in fact can never use them unless circumstances allow/cause you to? but whatever option circumstances cause u to take, all those other options were offlimits at that moment due to circumstance, so they werent real options at all, they were only appearant options, options that seemed to be there but were not, or atleast not accessible which is for all intents and purposes the same thing, since either way at that moment u couldnt avail yourself of one of those options. Your limited freedom sounds a lil to limited since in fact it only allows 1 action. the action the circumstances dictate.

So even if freedom can be limited, what is the point of calling it freedom when its actually limited to one choice, one option. Really calling them a choice or option is wrong, since thise things imply that there is atleast one other of themselves. u cant have 1 choice and it still be an actual choice, same for options. So u only have the freedom, the ability to choose, the only choice u can choose given the circumstances at that moment. Thats some shitty ass freedom. instead of calling it freedom or limited freedom why not just call it, "that which u must do at this moment given the circumstances"? ok sure thats a bit longer, but its way more accurate. Because as we now know our original conception of what freedom is, was wrong, just an illusion, just like all those illusionary "choices", "options" we IMAGINED we had.

None of our conceptions actually existed except in the same way that a lie is true, or as good as true as long as its believed. But its only that way for the believer, it doesnt apply to the rest of us nondeluded people, but free will is something we are all supposed to have, yet not one person that believes we have it, can explain how the fruits of this free will come to be without a cause, and with out being random and/or spontanious, which would not allow the will to come into things at all.

So how do we have free choice when our choices are not caused, not random, not spontanious?
How do we have free will when we arent even sure our will will be done as intended till after the choice to exercise that will has been made?

Really when i say "will" dont i mean "desire"? i say i dont desire to take option b over option a because if i take option b it will cost me more money then option A. But if i dont take option A i'll die, and i dont want to die, i'd rather pay the money then die. So what im really saying is "Rather then die i want to pay the money and live.

We say we do things we dont want to do, but thats not true, we always do what we want, we may not want it the most but we want it the most out of the options that we SEEM to have. And there is always a reason/cause for us to want that option more then another. what we want is an effect of that cause, and the action that is taken because of what we want, is an effect of the cause which was wanting.

Even if i have two options, like in the case of our fork in the road analogy, i may not even be able to exercise that choice. say i choose to go right...damn i tripped on a rock and was taken to the hospital which was back the way i came, and i didnt get to make my free choice that is somehow still free eventhough i cant exercise it. hmmm...fuck, this free will of mine is useless, its like i really dont have it at all. Damnit!!

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice to be.


Edited by ZenGecko (04/13/04 08:34 AM)


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2552715 - 04/13/04 12:53 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

what good is having another "choice" if at that moment in those circumstances you will never choose it? you cant choose it, because u werent allowed, so really u never had it, just the illusion u had it. really that what all this boils down to.
Sincerely
That which is, and has no choice but to be.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2552815 - 04/13/04 01:19 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I can't read that post, ZenGecko, but I'm sure it was a good one.  I am allergic to long unbroken paragraphs.  I have to close the thread or I will start sneezing all over my computer screen.  :smile:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Anonymous

Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2552903 - 04/13/04 01:38 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

u chose this life as it is. now your living it for the lessons that it brings.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2553092 - 04/13/04 02:33 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

ZenGecko writes:

If freedom is that which is with out restraint, and will is the ability to act, then free will is the ability to act with out restraint right?

No, that is omnipotence. See your own counter argument below:

but we all know that there are limits to what we can do, i cant fly, or shoot fireballs from my finger tips at will.

How about changing the phrase "free will", with which so many play semantic games, to "volition".

So how can there be such a thing as limited freedom? isnt that an oxymoron, nonsequetor, contradiction?

No. It is recognizing reality. No matter how much you may want to, you can't shoot fireballs from your fingertips. That doesn't alter the fact that you can wiggle your fingers at will.

So in order for a choice to be free, it can have no cause...

Incorrect. The cause is you.

Ok, so maybe you'd argue we are the cause? but what caused us to be the cause...

Irrelevant. What is important in determining whether you have the capacity to act volitionally is not how you came into existence, but whether or not once in existence you can act volitionally.

So in order for a choice to be free, it can have no cause...

Incorrect. See above.

... and there could be no limit on what we could "choose"...

Incorrect. See above distinction between volition and omnipotence.

... but then at best we are left with a randomn choice, or more accurately a random event.

A volitional act is not necessarily random.

Actually maybe spontanious is a more accurate word, rather then random, but then again what is the mechanism that allows this...

I don't know. But not knowing how something occurs is not the same as denying it occurs.

So randomness isnt free will,and neither is a spontaneous event cause u cant will either.

Correct. An act of volition is neither random nor predetermined.

at best u can take a guess, or push the odds to favor one outcome over another, but can never be certain of what will be...till it is.

Incorrect. I know when I type the word "volition" carefully, that "volition" will appear on my screen. Of that I am certain.

...and if something causes u to make a "choice" or take an action, then it isnt really a free choice, because it was caused.

Correct -- if something other than you makes the decision. But something other than you doesn't make the decision -- you do.

Even if u were influenced at all by something, then that something would have limited your freedom...

Incorrect. You prefer chocolate to vanilla because your past experience with the two flavors has influenced you to normally opt for the chocolate if given a choice. Yet your freedom to choose vanilla has been in no way "limited". You are still as free to choose the vanilla as the chocolate.

...and limited freedom is nonsense, how can that which is free be limited?

Sophistry. You are playing semantics.

so then what mystical mechanism, allows us to have the "free will" that many of us believe we have, infact our whole lives are built on this assumption.

I don't know. Yet I have volition. Let's pretend we are living five hundred years ago. I ask you "What mystical mechanism turns grape juice into wine?" Neither of us can answer. Does that mean wine doesn't exist?

my answer? none, there is no free will because in order for there to be so, i would have to take action without cause...

But you don't. You take action because you choose to. Your choice to act is the cause of the action. If you choose not to act, no action is carried out.

yet somehow have that action not be random, or even spontanious, yet be able to predict perfectly the outcome of my action

You are setting the bar too high. You toss a dart at a dartboard fifty feet away. You are aiming for the bullseye, yet miss it by three inches. This doesn't change the fact that you volitionally tossed a dart rather than sticking it into your left eyeball.

...because if there was any chance that my will would not be done exactly as i intended then i really had no control...

Perfect control is not the same thing as volition.

... no unrestricted will,because like limited freedom, limited control makes no sense either...

Of course it does. Again you are setting the bar too high. The fact that when you attempt to draw a flower your lack of fine muscle control and less than flawless artistic technique results in something which resembles a starfish more than it does a daffodil doesn't mean you cannot draw. You just cannot draw perfectly.

both are conceptions we use everyday, but in actuality have no basis in reality, just appearent reality.

Your grasp of the concepts is faulty.

So how then do we have free will?

I dunno. I dunno how LSD makes me see funny stuff either.

i can not find a shred of evidence for its existence...

The best evidence I can offer you is your own post. Who forced you to write it?

Causes may be subtle, or come together in a myriad of ways to form one ultimate cause that percipitates an effect, and we may not always be aware of them, or how they came about, but they are always there, every cause has an effect, every effect is also a cause that inturn has another effect ect..so on and on... if there is no cause then how did the event occur?

It matters not what events in your past led to your interest in debating free will. What matters is you chose to debate it. You didn't have to write out your post.

if it was random how did we have any say in what occured?

Randomness is not the point. We've both agreed on that already.

so how do we have free will?

That is an entirely different question from "is there free will"?

how can there be something between determinism and randomness?

I dunno. There just is.

my opinion is ofcourse, there is none, no choice, and no freedom, and no control.

You had better hope you never end up on trial for something. That excuse won't get you far.

They are conceptions based on the appearant reality, but have no actual basis in fact, or logic for that matter.

Volitional action need not be justified by logic. It is ostensively demonstrated. As a matter of fact, that is the only way it can be demonstrated.

if your up on your quantum physics then u know the world we see, is very different from the way things actually are.

At a subatomic level, yes. That doesn't change the fact that if you drop a glass off the top of a tall building onto a rock, the glass will shatter. it also doesn't change the fact that you can choose to drop the glass or not.

The only conclusion i can draw from the evidence and logic is that, in fact the only thing that is certain is that everything is uncertain.

Then think again. If you poke yourself in the testicles with a machete, you will bleed. That is a certainty.

At best we can only hope that we will be lucky in how things unfold and be ok with the uncertain, but whether we wish that, and whether we can be ok with it all, is itself not up to us, we either will be caused to be one way or the other or will randomly be assigned our opinion, or beliefs.

If you believe someone is inside your head randomly assigning opinions to you, why bother asking anyone to try to change them?

if u believe in free will now, u do so because all the circumstances, evironment, genetics, every quantum event that has occured since the begining of time makes you believe that you can believe anything u want, do anything u want...

No, I believe in volitional action because I can demonstrate it to myself at any time.

it just means u cant help but be deluded, it means u cant help but be exactly what u are or where u are, at this moment, or any other.

Again, if you believe that, why bother taking the volitional action of composing such a lengthy post asking people to disagree with your own personal delusion?

So any flaws in my arguement that you can prove logically?

Just the ones I've outlined above.

Oh and if your tempted to invoke god, then consider this...

Good thing I'm not tempted to invoke God, then, because this is getting boring. I will exercise my volition and stop now.

pinky


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2553517 - 04/13/04 08:24 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Ok your mostly wrong but atleast your trying..
Anything labled CORE, is a fundamental aspect of my arguement, if a logically consistant counter proof cannot be given, then my premis must be accepted as valid.


1. my definiton of freedom... Your right about it being the same as omnipotence. That was kinda the point, to illustrate how many dont fully understand even thier own conception of what the word means. many people assume they can make any choice they want with out restriction, others, more sane others admit there are limits to what we an do at any given time.


*CORE But u have failed to tackle this arguement... How could there be free will if in the exact same set of circumstances i will always perform the same action? You may be the cause of your action, but that is itself the effect of prior causes/circumstances. So at the time you made this supposed choice, you were infact compelled to do what you did because of the circumstances at that moment.
*CORE If you cant make a different choice, when circumstances are exactly the same, then u dont have free will, its that simple. There is no getting around it.

2. you say we have volition...ok here is the definition just so we are clear.
NOUN: 1. The act or an instance of making a conscious choice or decision.
2. A conscious choice or decision.
3. The power or faculty of choosing; the will.
ETYMOLOGY: French, from Medieval Latin voliti, volitin-, from Latin velle, vol-, to wish. See wel-1 in Appendix I.
OTHER FORMS: vo?lition?al ?ADJECTIVE
vo?lition?al?ly ?ADVERB

* CORE My arguement is that the idea of choice is itself a dellusion/illusion. In order to have a choice i have to have free will. If we could somehow replay a "choice" i had made over and over, the circumstances surrounding that choice being the same each time. i should if i have volition, or free will, be able to choose something different. But i wont, no matter how many times u replay it, if everything is the same each time, i will always perform the action i did the first time, and the time after, so on and on... IF u disagree with that premis then provide a logically consitant proof to the contrary.

3. ok u quoted me and responded like this...
So in order for a choice to be free, it can have no cause...

Incorrect. The cause is you.

Ok, so maybe you'd argue we are the cause? but what caused us to be the cause...

Irrelevant. What is important in determining whether you have the capacity to act volitionally is not how you came into existence, but whether or not once in existence you can act volitionally.

* CORE
My reply: Irrelevant? its anything but. This is a fundamental point of contention. If i cause an action, and something else caused me to cause that action, then me causing the action was infact an effect of that prior cause. I was caused to be the cause. Since i was caused to be the cause i had no control over whether i was the cause or not. That is the very meaning of the word cause. Maybe my understanding of the word is lacking, i dont know, but if we can agree that the word cause, used in the context "i was caused to do this..." is not equal to the sentence.. "i was caused to maybe or maybe not do this" then my definiton is adequate to illustrate my point.

*CORE If your caused to do something, even if its being caused to be another cause you had no "choice". You cant be caused and have a choice at the same time, the two are mutually exclusive.

4. Me: how can there be something between determinism and randomness?

You: I dunno. There just is.

*CORE Thats fair,u dont know, but if u dont know then you can not refute my argument. This question illustrates one of the fundemental premises my argument is based upon.
If something is determined, then thats the same as predestined. Things will unfold a certain way and there is nothing that can be done to alter that. thats what determinism is. There is no room for free will, choice, volition if that is how things actually are.

*CORE Ok so maybe our reality is not determined. So what is it? its randomn, its indetermined. All indetermined means is there is no fixed outcome. If you replayed an event in an indertiminate universe there is a chance do to random fluctuations that it may not unfold as it did previously.

*CORE If there was no cause for this, then it was random or spontanious, neither of those allow for volition, you cannot choose the outcome of a random action. you can not will a spontaneous event to occur at a certain time. Thus neither of these allow for free will, and if everthing is predetermined, as it is in a deterministic universe then you have no choice, or volition either, because what is going to happen is exactly what MUST happen.
*CORE
In order for you to refute my arguement against free will/volition..you have to put forth another possibility other then a determined or indetermined universe, Assuming that my arguement concerning those is logically consistant. because neither of these allow for volition as i have just illustrated above. If my arguement is not logically consistant it is your duty to explain logically how it is not so, and to put forth an alternate logically consitant proof in favor of your position.

You say you have volition because you can demonstrate it, such as choosing to respond to this post, tpying the word volition carefully and always having it appear on the monitor.. Now chances are each time you attempted to exercise your volition and perform these action you will succeed. But you are wrong in stating that you know the outcome with complete accuracy. Example: You've chosen to post a response to this post at this time. Your just about to type it out and you suddenly die of an anurism. Where did your volition go? no where because u never actually had it to begin with. *CORE You say u can make a choice, but if the anurism prevents you from exercising that "choice" then what good was having a choice? how was it really a choice at all? You can choose and choose all u want, but you are still going to do the only thing that circumstances allow you to do, no matter how forceful your faculty of will/volition is.

Here is a good portion of your post...
"At best we can only hope that we will be lucky in how things unfold and be ok with the uncertain, but whether we wish that, and whether we can be ok with it all, is itself not up to us, we either will be caused to be one way or the other or will randomly be assigned our opinion, or beliefs.

If you believe someone is inside your head randomly assigning opinions to you, why bother asking anyone to try to change them?

if u believe in free will now, u do so because all the circumstances, evironment, genetics, every quantum event that has occured since the begining of time makes you believe that you can believe anything u want, do anything u want...

No, I believe in volitional action because I can demonstrate it to myself at any time.

it just means u cant help but be deluded, it means u cant help but be exactly what u are or where u are, at this moment, or any other.

Again, if you believe that, why bother taking the volitional action of composing such a lengthy post asking people to disagree with your own personal delusion?

So any flaws in my arguement that you can prove logically?

Just the ones I've outlined above."

None of these responses are logical arguements that refute my own agruement.
You say you can prove your volition by choosing to respond to this post, but if something causes you to take an action there is no choice, *CORE you can not be caused and choose at the same time. They are polar opposites. If im wrong in this assumption explain how. If u cant then your argument has no merit.
I responded to that statement because it was the one that most closely resembled a logical arguement. But refutations such as...

"Again, if you believe that, why bother taking the volitional action of composing such a lengthy post asking people to disagree with your own personal delusion?"
Are not actual refutations at all. i did what i did because given the circumstances at the time i could do nothing else. thats my point. *CORE Given the same set of circumstance you will always perform the same action, if circumstances change you will peform the action that the new circumstances dictate. simply put "you will do what u are caused to do" if you dont then you've taken some random or spontaneous action, but as i've demonstrated such actions exclude the possibility of volition, Just as being caused to do something robs you of your choice/volition also.

*CORE So explain to me how u can be caused and choose to do something at the same time, given that the two are completely exclusive of each other, thus allowing for free will. If u agree with me on that point, that one doesnt allow for the other, and instead argue that free will/volition some how resides in randomness or spontanity, then explain to me how you can exercise your will over these types of events given that the very nature of these kinds of events excludeS the possibility of them being influenced by will/volition. Or is the general understanding of thier natures completely wrong? if so, then how, why?

*CORE If u can choose the outcome of a random event, then really there is no such thing. If you can predict the moment a spontaneous event will occur then again there is really no such thing. they are just events that occur, neither random nor spontaneous.
So we've ruled out randomness and spontanity as allowing free will/volition. All that is left is determinism, but the very nature of that exludes volition. How can you have volition in a system that is compelled to unfold in one particular way, and in only that way?

*CORE CORE CORE!!! So none of these systems allow for free will, so in order for volition to exist there must be another possible type of system. What is that system? how does it function in a way as to not be spontaneous, random or determined or any combination of the 3?
If u can give a logically consistant proof for such a system then you will have refuted my arguement against free will, not only that u will have discovered an entirely new aspect of reality.
Arguements such as "i can choose to post or not to post thus i have free will, are not logically consistant counter proofs, since i am arguing that choice/volition itself is a fantasy, and not an actual aspect of reality, just a human conception, an idea.
*CORE
In order to provide a counter proof you will have to explain the mechanisms that allow for volition, and especially the mechanism that allows for a system that is neither determined or indetermined yet something else inbetween and/or completely different from either/both.
If you cant come up with these, and explain their nature in a logically consistant way then u have no valid counter arguement, and are only left with basically saying "I think your wrong, but i dont have a logical reason for believing that."

I will try to edit my previous post to be easier to read. I have been trying to indent, but it doesnt seem to work. I'd really like to choose for it to work, but seeing as the circumstances wont allow that choice to be realized, i guess i really cant choose at all.

Sincerly,
That which is, and has no choice but to be.


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OfflineZenGecko
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Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2553548 - 04/13/04 08:53 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Oh i forgot to address the stuff about quantum physics...
At the quantum level there appears to be randomness, yet it is not for sure that this is the case, there may be an underlying order. But either way, the quantum level is a fundamental foundation on which our macro world operates. If there is randomness then when u drop the glass the pieces will shatter in a random and unpredictable way, much like the way water droplet splashes in an unpredictable way. Though the effects of the quantum realm may be subtle in the macro realm, they are there none the less, and current experiments are pushing the boundaries at which quantum forces intrude on the macro world.

This still leaves us with only three possibilities concerning the nature of reality, it is determined, random or spontaneous, all of which by their very definitions logically exclude the possiblity of free will/choice/volition.

For such things to be true there must be a fourth possible reality that some how is not determined, not random and not spontaneous, or even any combination of the 3. if this is the case then please someone describe the nature of this 4th reality and how this is possible?

If i am caused to be the person i am at this moment by all the prior circumstances that led to this moment, such as quantum events, evironment and genetics, how can any action i take now not be an effect of those causes? how can it not be the enevitable outcome of all that came before? if it was a random or spontaneous action how did i exercise my will or volition in regards to it, since the nature of such events as generally understood, does not allow room for will or volition. If i am wrong in this understanding, then how so? and by what mechanism is volition then allowed in such an event?

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be.


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Anonymous

Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2553551 - 04/13/04 08:56 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Ok your mostly wrong but atleast your trying..
Anything labled CORE, is a fundamental aspect of my arguement, if a logically consistant counter proof cannot be given, then my premis must be accepted as valid.






yeah, to say people are wrong is as fundamentalist as it gets


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OfflineZenGecko
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Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ]
    #2553559 - 04/13/04 09:08 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

My apologies, let me rephrase....

In my opinion he is wrong.


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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2553714 - 04/13/04 10:30 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

WB zen!!!  :grin:

I have some questions, hopefully you can help me out


"My arguement is that the idea of choice is itself a dellusion/illusion. In order to have a choice i have to have free will. If we could somehow replay a "choice" i had made over and over, the circumstances surrounding that choice being the same each time. i should if i have volition, or free will, be able to choose something different. But i wont, no matter how many times u replay it, if everything is the same each time, i will always perform the action i did the first time, and the time after, so on and on... IF u disagree with that premis then provide a logically consitant proof to the contrary."

let's look at this because this is a senerio that brings a whole new pitch to the ballgame.  It looks like here you are also describing fate. Is this the case?  Is everything happening the way it is "supposed" to happen? :wink:

but then you said descriing determinism...

"CORE Thats fair,u dont know, but if u dont know then you can not refute my argument. This question illustrates one of the fundemental premises my argument is based upon.
If something is determined, then thats the same as predestined. Things will unfold a certain way and there is nothing that can be done to alter that. thats what determinism is. There is no room for free will, choice, volition if that is how things actually are."

isn't that the same as your evidence above?



"Arguements such as "i can choose to post or not to post thus i have free will, are not logically consistant counter proofs, since i am arguing that choice/volition itself is a fantasy, and not an actual aspect of reality, just a human conception, an idea."

please correct me if I'm wrong, this would mean then that we "experience" the idea (power even?) of free will?  can free will be experienced while at the same time being under the influence of cause and effect?  you know, so we don't go insane :smile: 

if you can help me under stand this, I have an even better question for you, but I must understand first so I can get a good idea of what you REALLY mean


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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Offlineiamhimheisme
jesus christ

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 258
Loc: where i dont want to be
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: conscious]
    #2553739 - 04/13/04 10:41 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

conscious said:
ZenGecko: I know that tomorrow you will wake up in the morning. Did I just negate your free will simply because I have knowledge of your future actions? Nope... and simply because Yhwh knows all does not mean He denied you free will.




no one knows anything about the future, theres only probability and possibility.

i agree with those who say that free will is merely an illusion.  cause and effect govern our day to day lives more than anything else.  it is a persons upbringing and his/her life experiences that form the individual.  simply because that person makes decisions does not imply free will is being excercised.  id imagine that in any given situation where a person is forced to decide and act, he/she will choose to do what he/she believes will result in the best outcome.  up until this point his/her idea of what is best has been constantly developing through the interactions and experiences of everyday life.  now, while he/she seems to be making a choice, it is instead past experience that a) helps to picture the ideal outcome and b) helps to form a course of action in order to force this ideal outcome.  free will :thumbdown: (its a good concept, just doesnt seem to fit)  tired and im out


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OfflineFrog
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Phred]
    #2553828 - 04/13/04 11:23 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

*claps for PinkSharkMark*

I very much liked your answers. Thank you for taking the time to respond to ZenGecko.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: Frog]
    #2553837 - 04/13/04 11:27 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
*claps for PinkSharkMark*

I very much liked your answers.  Thank you for taking the time to respond to ZenGecko.




-applauds PinkSharkMark as well- :thumbup:

:wink:


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2553939 - 04/13/04 12:17 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

It's rather silly that people choose to argue that they have no free will. Pinky addressed things quite nicely. Some of your arguments are rotten to the CORE. Such as,
"*CORE
In order to provide a counter proof you will have to explain the mechanisms that allow for volition"

One does not have to explain 'the mechanisms' gravity to know that a rock will fall when dropped from a cliff.

My Bullshit Alarm goes off in this forum more than in any other.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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