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OfflineCockyMandrill
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Registered: 01/31/03
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: Phluck]
    #1797963 - 08/10/03 01:16 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
If your ultimate goal is knowledge, then faith is definately damaging.

If your ultimate goal is happiness, then faith may be just what you need.

Faith is the act of forcing yourself into ignorance.




I disagree. Faith doesn't bring you happiness, it just gives you a place to belong. It gives you the security of thinking you know what will happen to you after you die. Being happy isn't from joining some religion, its about truely fully accepting who you are and being content with that.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: Phluck]
    #1798001 - 08/10/03 01:34 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Faith is the act of forcing yourself into ignorance.




It depends on what you are having faith in, I think. Are we talking about faith in something that we have no way of really knowing, such as where we go when we die? How can having faith in where you will go when you die be the same as ignorance, if you have no way of knowing in the first place?

The way I see it, is that ignorance is blindly not accepting facts (of course, the question of what makes a fact a fact comes into question, the view of what is going on, what is real when you are on the stage in the play is going to be quite different than when you wrote the play...).

Southern Baptists believe that God created us, and there were no caveman, although fossils have been found and validated... they still hold onto their beliefs although the truth is right there.. that is ignorance. "Civilized" Christians who witnessed tribal rituals performed for their gods considered them ignorant.. if only they knew the truth, right?

Blaming sickness on evil spirits seems ignorant, but if you have no way of knowing... you never realize that you were ignorant until the truth is realized.. we are always ignorant until we are suddenly blessed with the truth.

The Christains know that the Wiccans are wrong, that they have their evidence that they are wrong, and the Christians will always have their God, that He is really there, that to worship someone else is ignorant... and the Wiccans know that life is only a participation in the sacredness of nature, etc, that to believe in a monotheistic god is wrong, and that they themselves are right..

Anyways, when you find the person or the source that has the Ultimate View in this universe about what is really true, about what is really false, please let me know. I'm interested to know that I've been ignorant all this while....
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePyronate
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Registered: 07/06/03
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1798014 - 08/10/03 01:41 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
The way I see it, is that ignorance is blindly not accepting facts




This ties into what Phluck was saying. When someone has faith in or believes something, they are stating that that thing is true and that they know it is true - when, in actuality, they do not know. In short, they are blindly not accepting the fact that they do not know whether or not what they believe is true.


--------------------
"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom... keep that in mind at all times."

--Bill Hicks (RIP)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: Pyronate]
    #1798039 - 08/10/03 01:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Pyronate said:
In short, they are blindly not accepting the fact that they do not know whether or not what they believe is true.




Ahh, but as no one really knows what the Truth is, accepting something as True makes it True, because no one can prove that what you hold True is Not-True...

Welcome to complete chaos. The only reason this place APPEARS to have order is because we make it appear so...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleJellric
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Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: CockyMandrill]
    #1798706 - 08/10/03 06:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If your ultimate goal is knowledge, then faith is definately damaging.




To me faith is what you make due with until you find out what's really going on. In this case it isn't damaging, it's just a stepping stone to be discarded once you've walked over it into knowledge.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: Jellric]
    #1798873 - 08/10/03 07:07 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Pyronate Wrote:
"This ties into what Phluck was saying. When someone has faith in or believes something, they are stating that that thing is true and that they know it is true - when, in actuality, they do not know. In short, they are blindly not accepting the fact that they do not know whether or not what they believe is true. "

Ummm.. I think you need to reread my origional post again.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflinePyronate
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1799119 - 08/10/03 08:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Ahh, but as no one really knows what the Truth is, accepting something as True makes it True, because no one can prove that what you hold True is Not-True...




Accepting something as True does not necessarily make it so. Anyone can pick a random idea and decide to believe in it; this does not make it True, particularly since, odds are, millions or billions of people possess contradictory beliefs.

Ultimately, the only realistic path is to acknowledge the impossibility of knowing Truth, and instead merely examine possibilities.

Quote:

Welcome to complete chaos. The only reason this place APPEARS to have order is because we make it appear so...




Perhaps so.


--------------------
"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom... keep that in mind at all times."

--Bill Hicks (RIP)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: Phluck]
    #1799343 - 08/10/03 09:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
If your ultimate goal is knowledge, then faith is definately damaging.

If your ultimate goal is happiness, then faith may be just what you need.

Faith is the act of forcing yourself into ignorance.



Not necessarily. Everything requires faith at some level, even if it's just faith that the laws of science will always be consistent. For example, if you let go of an apple 1,000 times at the top of a building, and it hits the ground 1,000 times, then you see the pattern of gravity, and assume that it will always fall to the ground. But how do you know that this will always be so? You don't. You have faith that because it's happened every time before that it will happen every time, but you still cannot prove this. You can only prove that it has happened every time you have done it.

Also, there are subjective experiences that lead people to faith. It seems very real to them, but they cannot prove it is true to anyone else. For example, my experience with mushrooms has led me to believe that we are all one, but I cannot prove this to anyone. I realize that because I experienced this under the influence of a psychedelic drug, that the fact that I experienced it does not make it true. However, it was real enough to me that I cannot believe otherwise.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: silversoul7]
    #1799371 - 08/10/03 09:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

For example, my experience with mushrooms has led me to believe that we are all one, but I cannot prove this to anyone. I realize that because I experienced this under the influence of a psychedelic drug, that the fact that I experienced it does not make it true. However, it was real enough to me that I cannot believe otherwise.

Yes, but here lies the dichotomy with both religious-based faith and mushroom-induced insights: If people genuinely believed what they proclaimed, then it would be reflected in their outward treatment of others at all times, but, alas; this is rarely so.

With your apple and gravity example, people ALWAYS act is if it were true.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: silversoul7]
    #1799377 - 08/10/03 09:30 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Well said!


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: Swami]
    #1799391 - 08/10/03 09:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"If people genuinely believed what they proclaimed, then it would be reflected in their outward treatment of others at all times, but, alas; this is rarely so."

mushrooms, to me, are a reminder of these principles. It is easy to forget them. It is hard to live up to them. Every time I start to feel disconnected and antisocial, I realize that I need to subject myself to an experience that will remind me of these principles in a convincing way (mushrooms are just one of many ways to do this)


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: silversoul7]
    #1799458 - 08/10/03 09:56 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"Everything requires faith at some level, even if it's just faith that the laws of science will always be consistent."

Any decent scientist is prepared to abandon his reliance on a certain theory once it has been shown that it is not the most likely possibility. This is not the same as religious belief.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: Phluck]
    #1799469 - 08/10/03 10:02 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I would say a certain amount of faith is required for scientists who are searching for a unified field theory.

they must have faith that:
a) such a thing exists
b) the existence of such a forumla wouldn't predetermine their ability to find it (or not find it).


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Unprovable Nature of Faith and Belief [Re: Pyronate]
    #1800883 - 08/11/03 09:13 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Pyronate said:
Accepting something as True does not necessarily make it so. Anyone can pick a random idea and decide to believe in it; this does not make it True, particularly since, odds are, millions or billions of people possess contradictory beliefs.

Ultimately, the only realistic path is to acknowledge the impossibility of knowing Truth, and instead merely examine possibilities.





I understand what you are saying, definitely, but millions or billions of people possessing contradictory beliefs doesn't mean that they or right, or that you are right, no one is right, and everyone is right.

Anyways, it is quite the subject, and nothing can be proven. I sort of think, though, that believing something makes it real.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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