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Faith in What?
    #1415986 -

I have asked these questions in several forms over the years here and have never received any direct answers from those chiding me for my lack of faith.

Really try to stay with me here and no go too far afield.

As there are unlimited unseen and unknown things of which to have faith in; then how can I know a priori which one to have faith in?

If I have faith in the "wrong" or a nonexistent thing, will it still bring me benefit? If so, how?

Why should I have faith in something that I cannot sense, know, measure, or validate?



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
    #1416153 -

Quote:
Why should I have faith in something that I cannot sense, know, measure, or validate?


Peace of mind. Once you accept something as an article of faith, trying to answer the 'why' becomes less troubling. The easy answers that faith provides are preferred to doubt and uncertainty by those who accept them.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
    #1416177 -

I have faith  in what I believe.
I only truly believe  what I know.
All I know is that  I know.

obscure enough for ya :crazy:   

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Re: Faith in What? [Re: shaggy101]
    #1416302 -

Shaggy has it right. Have faith in what you think/feel. Works for me.  :grin: 


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need that cash to feed them jones.

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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
    #1416353 -

Quote:
I have asked these questions in several forms over the years here and have never received any direct answers from those chiding me for my lack of faith.


On the contrary, I myself am glad that you do not accept others answers to your own questions.



Quote:
Really try to stay with me here and no go too far afield.

As there are unlimited unseen and unknown things of which to have faith in; then how can I know a priori which one to have faith in?


I think the questin -do you have have faith?- needs not have any thing to follow.
What I mean is why put others expressions, or the common consciousnes believe on your own.
you can only have faith if you really believe what it is you have faith in therefore you know it, without understanding- which is the nature of faith.
as you understand more and more, if the data obviously contradicts your belief and is undenialbly true, then you indeed did not know, and your faith was misplaced.

Quote:
If I have faith in the "wrong" or a nonexistent thing, will it still bring me benefit? If so, how?


I think if you know then it will not be wrong. For example the only thing I believe in is what I know, I will not label it, but that is my faith.
If I dared put any name on it, it would be god. But as the word god is only a form to communicate the force meant to express, I cant acurately say that word expresses what I believe.
Yet it constantly drives me in my life, and has never been proved wrong on any level.
Now if this force is not the "right" force then the flaw would be in my interpretation of the force(meaning I must not have truely had faith in it), or the flaw is in my creation, I simply am not capable of knowing truth by nature. A opinion I find to be nearly impossible as nothing I have seen points that direction.



Quote:
Why should I have faith in something that I cannot sense, know, measure, or validate?


You must explain your definition of those four words to me before I can give more of an answer.
For know all I can say is have you doubted yourself?
Have you looked within for the answer, with your heart only open to the truth? Did you doubt it?

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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
    #1416596 -

Quote:
If I have faith in the "wrong" or a nonexistent thing, will it still bring me benefit? If so, how?



Well, it seems pretty simple that if you put your faith in something it is because it brings you a certain amount of peace. I guess that would be the benefit.

If you are wrong in your belief the only real consequences would be if some other was right and you had to burn in hell for eternity for guessing wrong. :blush:


Quote:
Why should I have faith in something that I cannot sense, know, measure, or validate?



Yeah, why should you? If you are at peace without faith, fuck it. I personally believe there is a purpose to life. I am honestly searching for understanding. But I am having a hard time because I don't really know how to conduct this search. I tried asking questions. Now I feel there are no answers.And Like you,and for similiar reasons, I cannot accept any of the dogma. But I do have faith in a purpose. Life is trying to accomplish something. 


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
    #1416619 -

alan watts:
give us this day our daily faith, but deliver us from our beliefs
~
~
can you not "sense" spirit?
what perception of "spirit" implies may be another set of questions, yes/no ?
~
~
ymmv...
~
~


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
    #1416802 -

Have faith in the divine process.

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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #1416846 -

No doubt the universe is unfolding as it should...


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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Revelation]
    #1416853 -

Isn't that statement rather useless as it implies (and ASSumes) that there is an intention behind the universe?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1416866 -

IME no, it doesn't imply that.
To me it means that everything that is happening is not "wrong" or the opposite of what "should" be happening, as many people like to think.
It is how we've collectively chosen to go about living.

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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
    #1418281 -

I'll try to help you out here. This is a one time offer. I do not cast my pearls before swine. A swine is someone who mocks precious truths that they cannot understand. This is not a personal insult but a classification of non-believer.

Here goes:

As there are unlimited unseen and unknown things of which to have faith in; then how can I know a priori which one to have faith in?

A very valid question. The answer is that you must have some indication, i.e. empirical, in order to begin to exercise faith. If you are insinuating that one could know anything a priori you are amiss already. No knowledge of anything is apriori as understood by Kant.

That is a typical Kantian nonsense assumption.

If I have faith in the "wrong" or a nonexistent thing, will it still bring me benefit? If so, how?

Logically it could bring you benefit in the sense that you may interpret something in those terms but non-existent entities cannot benefit anything. This is because they do not exist. Ipso facto.

Why should I have faith in something that I cannot sense, know, measure, or validate?

There are a variety of reasons for having such faith, such as the inner peace already mentioned. Perhaps you might enjoy blowing up buildings like the World Trade Center and need a comfortable excuse.

Faith always or should always begin in the material world. That is to say that there must be or should be some kind of evidence to initiate it that has substance.

Have you read the 5 proofs for the existence of God? If not, read them. And read them before you poke around on the Internet for their rebuttals. If you poke around for their rebuttals first that evidences that you aren't really a seeker at all, just a whiner.

In the first chapter of Romans in the New Testament the apostle Paul says that the existence of nature offers evidence for the existence of God. This is what I mean when I say that faith has to begin somewhere.

Oh, and please don't take this as an invitation to argue back and forth on this subject. You should know me well enough to know I won't participate in that. Time won't allow it.

Cheers,

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Re: Faith in What? [Re: ]
    #1418327 -

be it rare ....i love reading you speak mr.mushrooms...thank you, you truly are most inspiring  :blush:

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Re: Faith in What? [Re: ]
    #1418784 -

As there are unlimited unseen and unknown things of which to have faith in; then how can I know a priori which one to have faith in?

A very valid question. The answer is that you must have some indication, i.e. empirical, in order to begin to exercise faith. If you are insinuating that one could know anything a priori you are amiss already. No knowledge of anything is apriori as understood by Kant.

That is a typical Kantian nonsense assumption.

I think that we are talking at odds here. Of course you can't know something before you know something, but one could have enough information to believe that a certain path or choice could possibly lead somewhere; that somewhere being more knowledge, wisdom, peace; etc.

I have never been to Jamaica nor Bermuda and so cannot know the islands, but can gather enough information to make a choice as to my destination. And I know ahead of time that if I go to that island alone, I will find a nice female (even though I do not yet know her) to spend some time with.

Now if someone tells me to have faith in angels, Gaia, Satan, God, Allah, Zeus, The Greys or any other entity, power, force; I have NO WAY of knowing ahead of time if any of these entities exist nor if they have the power to guide me.

My own experiments have had null results. Naturally the believers (though they cannot demonstrate results either) tell me that my approach or sincerity was amiss.



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
    #1418793 -

if I go to that island alone, I will find a nice female (even though I do not yet know her) to spend some time with."

Jeez Swami, i wish I had your confidence(or maybe even good looks) :smile:
 


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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Re: Faith in What? [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1418880 -

Chanting, visualization and pocketfull of hundred dollar bills is all the magic you need. :wink: 


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
    #1419165 -

I got thousands in my pocket, what can I expect?


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
    #1419468 -

I see what you are saying.  Yes, I was replying to a meaning that you didn't have in mind when you wrote what you did.  I just hate Kant so I had to throw out a little dig at him. :smile:

As far as which supernatural or supranatural 'entity' is real is concerned I would think that if such a being exists and more importantly cares about you and the details of your life, then it would be up to that being to give you evidence of its existence.  Wouldn't you?

So then, only a few possibilities exist.  The Being gave you evidence and you were unable to understand it.  There is no Being.  There is a Being and it didn't give you any evidence.

If one has an honest heart one has the first requirement for learning the truth about anything.  One must never turn away any answer because one finds it repugnant for some reason.

My own experiments have had null results. Naturally the believers (though they cannot demonstrate results either) tell me that my approach or sincerity was amiss.

Don't listen to "believers" as much as you should listen to your own heart.  It is probably a much better guide.  Since you have had null results so far then you are faced with a choice, either give up the search or keep searching.

Pax eterna 

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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
    #1419663 -

You know the Universe exists do you not? Are you aware of or can you begin to try and comprehend it's ominous and endless nature?

Have your faith be in the Universe. I mean, after all, you can see it..you can *try* to measure it.. it provides for our lives and so we should be grateful for our existance and continued experiencing of life. How lucky we are.

You shouldn't have faith in anything you don't believe in. Faith is a very personal thing. Have faith in the Earth, or the Sun, or the Universe. These are tangible things in perceptable reality. Start there, and maybe we can work our way out to devas/angels/etc.

Faith in what? Faith in everything.. faith in the unknown. Faith in eternity. Faith in continued existance of consciousness. Faith in the limitless boundaries of reality.


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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1419829 -

Have your faith be in the Universe.
What exactly does that mean?


Let's look at people who have faith in a loving God vs. those who don't:

Believer Parent A:

Son returns home from Iraqi conflict unharmed. "God protected you because of your prayers and faith." Smothers son with hugs & kisses.

Son returns home from Iraqi conflict in a body bag. "God called you home and you will be in heaven because of your sacrifice." Parent wails uncontrollably at the loss.


Rationalist Parent B:

Son returns home from Iraqi conflict unharmed. "The odds favored you to come home safely." Smothers son with hugs & kisses.

Son returns home from Iraqi conflict in a body bag. "Life is a cruel joke." Parent wails uncontrollably at the loss.

The ONLY difference that I can see is that the internal dialogue is somewhat different. The pain and joy is roughly equal and no external mystical force played a part in the end result of the melodrama WHATSOEVER!


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
    #1424391 -

The ONLY difference that I can see is that the internal dialogue is somewhat different. The pain and joy is roughly equal and no external mystical force played a part in the end result of the melodrama WHATSOEVER!

The difference is that the believer mother believes that her son is in heaven. if it brings her just a little bit of comfort, does it really matter if heaven really exists or not?

If I have faith in the "wrong" or a nonexistent thing

If faith in something nonexistent can bring about real change, then isn't the power of faith in faith itself?


The question isn't "Faith in what?". It doesn't matter if this thing "really" exists because we can't know. It's the belief. It's about choice: if it was you coming home in that body bag, would you rather have your mother say "he's in a better place" or "life is a cruel joke"?

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Re: Faith in What? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1424460 -

Hey!  What are you trying to do, get people to think?

Knock it off!  :grin:

Nice seeing you post btw

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Re: Faith in What? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1425274 -

The difference is that the believer mother believes that her son is in heaven. if it brings her just a little bit of comfort, does it really matter if heaven really exists or not?

First off you are assuming that it does bring comfort. I have noticed ZERO difference in the suffering of those who have lost loved ones between believers and non-belivers; not just at funerals, but as to long-term mental/emotional effects.

Secondly, I have MANY times on this board outlined the trouble with "random" beliefs; from wars ("holy" and otherwise) and cults (Koresh, Jonestown, etc. to scams (TV evangelists, mediums).

Faith in "something out there" seems disempowering rather than empowering. "I am weak and helpless, but God will save me!" (even though he never does)

My misguided faith in Santa Claus brought both joy and pain, and in the end was a useless deception/belief accomplishing nothing.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
    #1425363 -

Don't look for faith to magically take away the pain of losing a loved one. People get through tough times with or without faith.

So lets say that faith can't take away the grieving mother's pain, but still she believes, she truly, honestly believes that her son is in heaven. She's still hurting because he's been taken away from her, but she believes that someday she will see her son once again. Is this such a bad thing?

If you had "evidence" that heaven didn't exist, would you tell her?

As I've said on various other threads, I don't think faith is all good either. It can be a poison that incapacitates feeble minds. Faith is powerful and it cuts both ways.

I agree that faith can be disempowering if you have faith in a god that determines the outcomes of sporting events and meddles in interpersonal relationships. Yes, THAT god will let you down time and again.

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Re: Faith in What? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1425758 -

I base my faith on real tangible feelings and experiences. When I have a spiritual experience, while praying or otherwise, it is very real to me. Feelings and emotions flood my body that cannot be explained. This is what I base my faith on, not just ideals or promises of eternal life, but actual experiences I have had.


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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
    #1425823 -

i can overcome my previous confines through devotion
will <----> faith
wouldn't have one without the other


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: Faith in What? [Re: chunder]
    #1425840 -

when one gives into their beliefs, and accepts faith as an answer to their spiritual void, what actually happens? many describe a "love for god", but could this love just be our human emotion misplaced into irrational thought?

i've been in love before, and during that experience i thought i had been touched by god. i don't believe i was in any way, because the "true love" i was feeling turned out to be false, as it was not felt on the other side.

love is a very powerful emotion that can be internalized when one decides to accept the most beautiful thing they can imagine, god, as being a fact.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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