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don't knock faith
    #1491642 -

the more i understand what faith is all about, the more i wish the word faith could be put to rest for a thousand years or more so we could get rid of all the misassociations bagged along with it.
like the pink floyd lyrics "set the controls for the heart of the sun", faith is like setting your controls for total open-mindedness to follow the truth wherever it is
this will simultaneously destroy your preconceptions on either end of the spectrum, whether you're predisposed to fundamentalism or skepticism
see, an agnostic, one who claims no belief on reality, will most often turn out to be a clevely self-deceptive man. they claim that they're suspending beliefs, yet all their conditionings play themselves out according to nature the same way a fundamentalists would. if an agnostic could really practice what he preached, he would have to surrender the security he has placed in his identity as a skeptic. i think fundamentalists are right in the heart in one way, in desiring eternal life, and i think there's some sanity in this wish. but the way a fundamentalist copes with this totally natural desire is also deceptive. unfortunately, their emotional predisposition to clinging to the idea of certainty in an after-life is pretty much what the every day mundane joe would agree exemplifies "faith". i don't think so.
have any of you ever seen Jesus Christ Super Star? you know how all of His followers jump on the bandwagon with this wildly fanatic dance singing "Christ you know i love you! can't you see my way? i believe in you and God so tell me that i'm saved!" and an apostle jumps in and tries to persway Christ into using this zeal as a way to fight and regain Jerusalem... that's exactly the kind of psuedo-faith of which i'm talking about. it's like there's a burden that the fundie has because he's ankoring his desire for eternal life down with a natural emotional anxiety of his finitude by making it concrete with certitude that there is an after-life. meanwhile, i think the skeptic sort of squelches his natural desire for eternal life by getting all tangled up with security in the scientific method being the end-all of an open-mind.
i'm reminded of Mary Mag singing in Jesus Christ Super Star "everything's all right, NOW, yes, evreything's fine. and i want you to sleep well tonight. close your eyes close your eyes and relax -think of nothing tonight" - to me, i think this soothesaying song is exemplifies what Christian faith is about, which wasn't what the follower's thought - taking refuge in the idea that one day they'd have a home in jerusalem or that they're going to live in this wonderful afterlife, but rather the immediate power to be this loving communal family like unit right here in the moment destroys the anxiety created by an emotional need for security in the future.
i think the skeptic sort of loses passion, hope for the future, and can be a dangerous drug-user. i think the more you blow your brains out with lsd to feel these deeper states of sensuality, the more you have to exploit your sensory aparatus in the future and the less sensitive they function. whatever it is, raves and ecstasy and flickering light shows and screensavers frizzle frazzles your nerves. sex, sex, sex. begins to rob your soul of its precious sensuousness. but you better get it now, cuz you might not ever get it again, yet you can't really enjoy it without at least having a good lead on ankoring it down in the future... and it's like the fuckin' phone is ringing in the back of your head all the time.

the fundie drug user goes schizo, man, astral vibes gone lalala.... where the skeptics flame gets extinguished the fundies flame starts a forest fire. and you can tell the total fuckin' mess some of these shroomerites wind up in. the total tongue and anus off the wall nonsense kicks they get on. total waste of space.

it's like the difference between never being able to get laid, being impotent when at "the moment of crisis" or prematurely ejaculating.

or first there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is.

there's the fundie/skeptics, then there is the druggy fundie/skeptics - what's next? better bow your head and think gracious....

i guess i've said enough.

turn on tune in drop out.

-

soak n' spoke in emotional kerosene combustible stir before ash n' burn smoke stream from slow crackle of candle refrain now lit sniff last whiff of sulfer before thought spitflame.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: don't knock faith [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1491693 -

Sometimes, late at night, when I'm browsing this forum sustaining my presence with the odd scraps people post on old threads, somebody posts a whole new thread. It's like a camel just died in the desert, and I get first pick before the rot sets in and the thread goes off topic.

Then, sometimes, like now, I come across a desert beast whose exoskeleton is too thick for my blunt vulture beak to pick at, and I leave. But this time, I'm starving, so I'll stick around for a sec

faith is like setting your controls for total open-mindedness to follow the truth wherever it is
I thought that's what faith wasn't. Like this guy I know who has faith in the bible and that whole can o worms and he uses his faith to not accept anything ie: scientific stuff. He's like "No, I am a camel in the desert and I have faith that the oasis is just up ahead." Well, me and a few friends swooped in on him and stopped him before he got to the oasis with our mighty vulture talons. Someone phoned the doctor and proved that men have the same number of ribs as women (He was like "Oh yeah, if God didn't create mankind then why is there one less rib in men? It's evidence that a rib was used to create Eve. I mean, how else would ancient men have known how many ribs each sex had?).

That was in high school. Faith animated his carcass and kept him walking the straight and narrow. He spent the rest of our time at that school not hanging out with us. Sometimes I wonder.. when he got married at 19 or 20 or whatever so he could finally lose his virginity, was he dissapointed to find he wasn't his wife's first lay?

Moral of the story? Use GPS to find water holes, and don't listen to the bible concerning placing your phallus in "other" holes.

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Re: don't knock faith [Re: Dogomush]
    #1492235 -

This thread comes at a strange time. I've really been spending alot of time lately thinking about God, or the lack of it. I wouldnt call myself an Atheist, as that's more of an active stance. I'd say its more of an Apathe-ist. I just couldnt care less really. As long as you arent pushing your religon on me, or trying to hurt me with your religion, more power to you.

Lots of strange things though, lately, have me wondering if I'm wrong. Not that I'm ready to pick up a bible just yet, theres lots of things I cant reconcile. If I could find a religion that would make me feel good, while not being patently false, I'd be the happiest camper out there. I mean, Christianity is all warm and fuzzy, but none of the facts play out. I listen to my friends say "Sure, we believe in Creationism", and it boggles my mind. I suppose some people are just more able to suspend their disbelief than others. Sorry, I dont know that this post has a point, other than being loosely on topic...


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: don't knock faith [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1492477 -

i can't help but feel that my ego is crying out for an afterlife, and i will eventually make myself believe that one exists, just because it makes me feel good, i've opened my heart to "faith" and poof... i'm in heaven, it feels so good, so why ever be a skeptic? i love these happy feelings, and it makes living every day that much easier....dissociate from the ego and those happy feelings don't exist, the feeling of afterlife does not matter, your conscious exists and for some strange reason i'm ok with dying... my conscious feels good about not going to heaven... there are no feelings that make me WANT to believe there is a god... so thats what i do i dissociate and i view faith as something weak... invalid, and not something i want to bank my existence on so i can get by my day easier... but thats not saying my faith in this universe is not there, i have faith there are things i cannot fathom, things that may be beyond science, but i don't know that for sure... i'd like to think there is a god...b/c what else would there be? so i believe there is a god, not b/c of my faith, but because there HAS to be something that made matter...what existed before this i do not know... but i will not put my ego at the center of faith and expect me to live on after my mortal life, i like the idea that my conscious/ego/ME has only one time on this earth and thats here and now... god created me, for a once and done deal...what should i make of this experience? i'm sure as hell not going to spend it wishing it will go on forever... my ego is lost, and so is my faith, but my BELIEF there is something more is strong... i'm ready to die, and i'm ready to have no after-life... so here i am, my first and last chance to be alive and feel an ego, and consciousness... what wil i make of it?? what would you make of it? yes there is a god, but no, you won't live forever.

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Re: don't knock faith [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1493764 -

Your post was good and I could feel the energy and truth in it ...but you lost me at the end

Quote:
it's like the difference between never being able to get laid, being impotent when at "the moment of crisis" or prematurely ejaculating.

or first there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is.

there's the fundie/skeptics, then there is the druggy fundie/skeptics - what's next? better bow your head and think gracious....

i guess i've said enough.

turn on tune in drop out.

-

soak n' spoke in emotional kerosene combustible stir before ash n' burn smoke stream from slow crackle of candle refrain now lit sniff last whiff of sulfer before thought spitflame.



It would probably be easier to understand if I was shroomin, but I'm not.


--------------------
"as your attourney I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top, and you'll need the cocaine.."

"well.. why not? I mean if anything's worth doing, it's worth doing right. THIS IS THE AMERICAN DREAM IN ACTION"

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Re: don't knock faith [Re: ClosetCase]
    #1494175 -

Doesn't matter.

You know, the Grateful Dead missed notes here and there all the time. Of course some snot nosed critic will harp on it, 'cuz it's almost as if they're offended by the fact that somebody else enjoys something they don't understand. You know, with some people any hint of self-expression chips away at their castle... Their pride is their damsel, you know. I spin a pretty far out abstract womb, I get lost myself for the same reasons kids play hide and seek.

But you said it, you feel the energy, and vibrations reverberate IDENTITY- yet the energy doesn't come through to "believers" of God or darwinism or every day agnosticism (drop out cop out) - the energy comes through one's own emptiness.
Their belief is an illusion, it's preconception, it's ego. The energy can't come through, they're out of synch.

the Dead is a total testiment to what i'm talking about....the way the band played off the audience, all the energy circulating through the scene.

-

Promise me with every opportunity you'll use the all illuminating eye beyond the obvious buffoonery. Defy the allegations and the rumory. Be out the labyrinth the average imp's enamored with.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: don't knock faith [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1494209 -

and to think the great big wild whirled was just a spectacle created by the grasping of senses

adaptation #1:

treasure hunt your scatter-brain

don't knock focusing, centering!

sound is the primary sense.

concentrate

OM




--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: don't knock faith [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1495788 -

zappa left the tape machine running...
during the sessions that gave us stuff like "we're only in it for the money" and whatever the one that was credited to abnukeal emukha's electronic symphomy orchestra (ya, it's gathering dust in my vinyl stacks... whatever...)
and at one point, some stoned-out band member is rambling: "the way i see it, barry, the universe started with this ONE BIG NOTE... and everything else is, like, harmonics..."
yup...
one big note...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

Edited by gnrm23 (04/26/03 12:10 PM)

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Re: don't knock faith [Re: gnrm23]
    #1496113 -

good sweet kristos

Why is it that the shroomery successively and succesfully asks the exact question that I am churning through but dont know it?

You get five shrooms.


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We have to answer our own prayers

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Re: don't knock faith [Re: recalcitrant]
    #1496123 -

Isn't that the truth. Everything is getting "synchier".


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Re: don't knock faith [Re: Revelation]
    #1496142 -

synchier, yes, the shroomery expaned greatly a while ago, its been VERY well admined and moded, and its become a lycaeum i wholly delight in being a moiety.


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We have to answer our own prayers

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Re: don't knock faith [Re: gnrm23]
    #1496165 -

the one big note can't be descecrated under any circumstances
you can't oppose it
you whistle that note and it carries the awareness of an eternal consciousness and a universal consciousness

so if you could involve your whole domesticated primate body in one effort, at the same time focusing your mental image on a single image continuously, like a candle flame, or perhaps a mandala, or just eliminating all picture if you can and just reducing all sensation and all universe to the ONE BIG NOTE which vibrates through the center of the body...




--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: don't knock faith [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1496168 -

OM


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Re: don't knock faith [Re: ]
    #1501660 -

Well, there's no point in analyzing something you're already conscious of than possibly to explain it to somebody else who shares the feeling but doesn't understand how it could possibly be true.
To the extent that skepticism requires the babble of language running through consciousness, it's more important to silence that babble and exist in the feeling.
You seem to be conceptualizing faith as the type of linear gossip yakking away inside the cranium through repitition of fundamentalist ideas like "one day i'll be rewarded in heaven". That would amount to constantly beaming out a message of safety and security to oneself. Meanwhle, the mulling over and over, of thoughts concerning reasonable doubt in God's existance and an afterlife and other thoughts acknowleging the possibilitty of God's existance, revovling around a corpse of thoughts, will constantly beam out a message of insecurity to oneself. If you mull around in thoughts concerning the disproval of God long enough one will likely find security in the beaming vibrations of cyncism to the innanities of the fundamentalists all the time. Meanwhile, fundamentalists find security in their own in-group of believers and will beam out messages of prejudices towards nonbelievers.
Coming from an agnostic standpoint throughout my early teenage years, I found that it was easier to let go of mulling around on doubt and possibility of God's existance and substitute it for mulling around on and about the memories of altered states of consciousness experienced with psychedelic drugs, finding a sense of despair with most aspects of every day mundane life. I found myself stepping in the same river over and over and over again, trying to find a paint-by-number approach to life from what I had learned during a psychedelic trip, when obviously, the amazing thing about psychedelics is that each epiphany, each incarnation, each illumination, is going to be different and unreproducable next week. Or, the same one you had last week will come to you in different terms with this trip.
I just see faith as another word for being free from habit-pattern conditioning, no matter what the condition, satisfied with open-mind sensory input.
OM
--
Whatever The Thinker Thinks, The Prover Proves.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: don't knock faith [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1503620 -

hey...
i think alan watts pointed out:
you can't even step in the same river once...
:smile:
~
~


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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