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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1043417 - 11/11/02 02:48 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe it does indicate to you but that doesn't make it true.

seem to indicate ( to me ) that there was indeed some sort of chemical addiction/substance abuse problem going on there

i think i qualified my statement as subjective the first time around

If John Lilly tells you something it's best to be quiet and listen

i can't believe you just siad that....do you actually expect me to take that statement seriously? i haven't responded to THAT kind of dictate since i was in grade school...

You seem to concentrate on my "hostility" and ignore Swami's...

to be honest with you Alex, you're one of the only people i've seen posting here with any real hostility, once in a while is only human but it seems to be the underlying thematic invariable to many of your posts...any valid point you may make is often to me simultaneously negated by by what I percieve to be anger......





--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1043454 - 11/11/02 02:58 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

seem to indicate ( to me ) that there was indeed some sort of chemical addiction/substance abuse problem going on there

That's fine. And i said that didn't make it true. Ok?

do you actually expect me to take that statement seriously?

Yep. Sometimes it's best to think and listen rather than respond with kneejerk responses like "If you take drugs you must be a junkie"

to be honest with you Alex, you're one of the only people i've seen posting here with any real hostility

Really? You've never read any hostility in any post of Swamis? Ok..



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1043471 - 11/11/02 03:05 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Sometimes it's best to think and listen rather than respond with kneejerk responses like "If you take drugs you must be a junkie"

especially when it's one of YOUR idols who has been shown to have feet of clay(whether YOU want to see it, or not).

"If you take drugs you must be a junkie"

You have put that in quotations as if i said that, if i have, then pls show me where. What i THINK i may have said was applying the term junkie or addict to someone(NOT just Lilly) who was believed to be involved with IV use of ANY drug as deeply as Lilly has been reported to have been.....


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1043485 - 11/11/02 03:10 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

If you thought the ketamine subject was touchy, whatever you do, DON'T bring up the sex and dolphin issue!


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Swami]
    #1043509 - 11/11/02 03:17 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Man, I just ate...


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1043536 - 11/11/02 03:26 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

especially when it's one of YOUR idols who has been shown to have feet of clay

Nah, if he'd been a "self-confessed ketamine junkie" that would have been fine by me. He wasn't. What more is there to say? That's the bottom line. You can read the interview yourself. If you can find one source of evidence backing up Swami's lie lets hear it. Otherwise you are just backing up Swami presumably because you "like" him and "don't like" me.

How about we forget about likes and dislikes and concentrate on the truth?

with IV use of ANY drug as deeply as Lilly has been reported to have been.....

Why does IV make you a junkie? If he'd been snorting it would he have been "not a junkie"?

See this is the knee-jerk response again - you automatically associate IV with "drug addicts". Ask yourself why. That may be what you've been taught but it doesn't make it true.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1043579 - 11/11/02 03:39 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

See this is the knee-jerk response again - you automatically associate IV with "drug addicts". Ask yourself why.

you're right Alex, i have always associated the act of sticking a foreign object(such as a syringe),into a person's arm(or elsewhere on their anatomy) sometimes on a daily basis in order to handle the "pain" of being alive as being somewhat symptomatic of addiction to drugs..... thankyou for pointing out my faulty reasoning...... :grin:

How about we forget about likes and dislikes and concentrate on the truth? 

Best idea you've had so far(imo)

Otherwise you are just backing up Swami presumably because you "like" him and "don't like" me.

i can assure you Alex, personal feelings/emotions do not play a very prominant role in my posts.

because you "like" him and "don't like" me.

i haven't heard that kind of talk since i was in grade school, i'm sorry Alex, i'm really not TRYING to be critical here but that statement seemed to be more befitting a wounded puppy who had had it's "feelings hurt" that a sentinent/rational human being....

how about you/we just stick to: b]How about we forget about likes and dislikes and concentrate on the truth?? 

about likes and dislikes

again Alex, you are  assuming i don't like you, THAT does not make it true




 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #1043698 - 11/11/02 04:10 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Man, I just ate...

and i imagine the idea of getting sexually aroused so soon after eating is foreign to your nature Dee? :grin: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1043717 - 11/11/02 04:18 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Well my thoughts were "sexually aroused"... although arousal is not always good, and in this case included the feeling of impending vomit.  :smirk:

Eating has nothing to do with that anyway.  As a young male I'm sexually aroused nearly all day no matter what's in my stomach.  :grin:   


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #1043737 - 11/11/02 04:25 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Well my thoughts were "sexually aroused"... although arousal is not always good, and in this case included the feeling of impending vomit.

Okay, understood Dee, NEXT time you decide to "kill a kitten" or even engage in real sexual relations with the species of your choice :wink: try  not to think of engaging in carnal knowledge of some hapless Doll-fin  :grin:
 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1045235 - 11/12/02 01:33 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

on a daily basis in order to handle the "pain" of being alive as being somewhat symptomatic of addiction to drugs

Sounds like a DARE pamphlet.

Best idea you've had so far(imo)

Great. Find me where Lilly says he is a "self-confessed ketamine junkie" then. That would be concentrating on the truth wouldn't it?

how about you/we just stick to: b]How about we forget about likes and dislikes and concentrate on the truth??

Great. Lets do it. Why are you waiting? Evidence for Lilly saying he's a "self confessed ketamine junkie" please.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1045345 - 11/12/02 02:18 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Sounds like a DARE pamphlet.

i've never seen one , so i can't realy comment

Find me where Lilly says he is a "self-confessed ketamine junkie" then

where did i ever say he WAS  "a self confessed Ketamine junkie"? my point, from the outset was that it really DOESN'T matter if he was an ADMITTED jukie or not......by all definition(s) of which i am aware,  he was. Even if he denied the CONCEPT to addiction, there was still the REALITY of addiction......

to ME your obsession with whether or not he was a "self confessed junkie" is a bit like getting run over by a car and then making your your entire argument: "well, was it a red car or a blue one"?

in CLOSING Alex, i never said he ADMITTED his problem....never said he might NOT have SOMEWHERE.....EITHER. i'm sure when he met people at gatherings such as the one YOU attended, he didn't just walk up to people and say: "HI!! I'm John lilly and i'm a raving drooling Ketamine addict!" :grin:






 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1045881 - 11/12/02 11:55 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

by all definition(s) of which i am aware, he was

That's kinda the problem tho. The definitions the government gives us don't work. 100 years ago literally everyone in the country used opium and heroin regularly. Were they all "junkies"? No, they just used the drug regularly because they chose to. There was no "war on drugs" propaganda then you see.

If you see your children every day are you "addicted to children"? No, you just choose to do so because it's what you want to spend your time doing. No "concepts of addiction" are neccessary. Why must you be "addicted" if you use drugs regularly? Read "Underworld of the East".

You can use drugs regularly for other reasons than you are "a junkie avoiding the pain of life". Agreed?

Lilly used huge quantities of LSD for many years (a lot longer than he used K) - does this make him a "self-confessed LSD addict"?

i never said he ADMITTED his problem

Once again, you can use drugs without having a "problem". Not according to the DEA maybe, but it's true nevertheless.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1045921 - 11/12/02 12:21 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

years ago literally everyone in the country used opium and heroin regularly. Were they all "junkies"? No, they just used the drug regularly because they chose to.

everyone? You mean to tell me that 100 years ago, in SOME country SOMEWHERE EVERY living person was using opium and heroin?
What country?(perhaps you are in China?)<==== serious question

100 years ago literally everyone in the country used opium and heroin regularly. Were they all "junkies"? No, they just used the drug regularly because they chose to. There was no "war on drugs" propaganda then you see.

Well if  Everyone used opium and heroin, and Everyone was a junkie there really couldn't be(imo) any war on drugs because, who would have waged it......who would have even been  Aware  that there Was a problem?....compare this to all the slaves in the galley(sp?) of a sailing ship not being aware of their own state of slavery due to the fact that they've never seen anything else, nor sensed anyother way of living/being and hence have no barometer by which to measure and  Acknowledge the true nature of their condition.........as  Slaves  :grin:

to summate the essence of my theseis: a slave is a slave is a  Slave , whether they know it or not, whether knowing it and yet denying the concept of slavery



Were they all "junkies"? No, they just used the drug regularly because they chose to

according to MY understanding Alex, once one is......lol...."habituated" to an opiatre derived substance the withdrawl process(from what i've read) would seem to be somewhat........"unpleasant".....i don't know that i would call taking any drug to alleviate unpleasant mental/physiological symptoms of their  slavery to that drug as taking it by choice.....

If you see your children every day are you "addicted to children"? No, you just choose to do so because it's what you want to spend your time doing.

That's a VERY interesting monlogue you have going there Alex, you ask a question seemingly directed toward me and then you are presumptuous to respond as if claiming to know my answer in advance........

but if you HAD OF allowed me to answer your question i WOULD have said: i duno, i have no progeny, and i wouldn't try to analyse someone else's relation with their children lacking in any kind of direct experience in that area...

You can use drugs regularly for other reasons than you are "a junkie avoiding the pain of life". Agreed?
What drug?
how regulary?
what method of ingestion?

imho, if you're refering to injecting ketamine(LEAVE Lilly out of this shall we? As the mere mention of his name seems to push an emotional response button with you) on a daily basis, maybe even several times a day, by IV, i would say(imo) that the person described above, is a  Slave to their habit.....

"self-confessed LSD addict"?

Alex, i will only say this one last time.....listening?  I never said he WAS a self admitted addict!


Once again, you can use drugs without having a "problem".

you've finally said something i can actually agree with, but again(imo), it's all a matter of the drug, the frequency and the  Control or position of prominence that the "drug" has in your life

to compare IV'ing Ketamine for an extended period of time to someone seeing their children everyday is ludicrous(i didn't say YOU were ludicrous, just your line of reasoning) You may as well have used the analogy of "just because i breath in oxygen every day, does that make me addicted to oxygen).........i think that's one thing MOST of us here have in common.....we are ALL "addicted" to oxygen...... :grin:










 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



Edited by FreakQlibrium (11/12/02 02:04 PM)


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OfflineCalen
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Registered: 08/23/02
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Swami]
    #1047814 - 11/12/02 10:53 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Sorry freq, but that statement is incredibly weak. As I have pointed out countless times, we are communicating with tools derived from this "false" mode of looking at the world.


FALSE?  *LOL you don't trust your own perceptions so you pigeon-hole everyone of us in the same category. Or maybe its your 30 years of exploration  turning up zilch.  Perhaps, the word "jaded" fits the issue.

How amusing too..  I supposed I'll chalk up my patterned (for the last 6 years) indirect experiences of past lives, souls, disincarnates, subconscious programming  as delusional or perception errors because I can't objectively prove them. 


I have no necessity to form beliefs on mentioned subjects. There was already a 'knowing' I could not explain fully what I sense was very wrong [major character dissonances] with me for a long time.  I was incredibly irritated everyday since two years ago.  I couldn't clearly conceptualized the sensing because I had no formative beliefs nor had a clear idea what *exactly* these afflictions were.

the only (personal) evidence was when this healer tells me explicitly what I have been 'sensing' and initiates a clearing for me.  I felt the difference immediately.  A dramatical shift happening in my head.  Irritation dropped to 0. Massive heat sensations dispersing outward from my ears and areas of my head.  A clearing of my head the previous healers, over a year ago, could not accomplish.  This continue for days until.. I lost my temper.  Oopsy me. :laugh: I wrecked almost all the balancing done. Head plugs up.  I felt the pressure attempting to push out inside the ears but was impeded.

I couldn't give a rat's ass  what I experienced can be objectively proven or not.  In my situation, I don't have the luxury to wait for science to 'catch' up on the mentioned subjects - which were *negatively, indirectly influencing my life.  I've indirectly experienced these phenomenons but never had the tools to analyzed the 'afflictions' until now.

My premise: I want results, not beliefs.

At this point, I still have no clue what this healer is telling me.  All these applied concepts are are just new to me in real-time.  Afterall, I am like you.  I need to fully "see" the path to the origins.  But credence I will give her.  Moreso, I will apply what she has taught me, eventually - instead giving onus on certain people to provide *results* for me. 

Direct evidence is the jolly green giant.  Be great if all that I had observed through the years can be *really* objectified.  That's wishful thinking.  You know it.  We know it.  You must be making the rounds again with "Validate your beliefs and win 1 million dollars". :wink: Anyhow, good luck finding it. 


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Calen]
    #1048135 - 11/13/02 01:22 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

you don't trust your own perceptions so you pigeon-hole everyone of us in the same category.
Who is the "us" and what is the pidegeon-hole? Once again, how many shroomery spokesmen are there? Can no one speak for themselves?

I supposed I'll chalk up my patterned (for the last 6 years) indirect experiences of past lives, souls, disincarnates, subconscious programming as delusional or perception errors because I can't objectively prove them.
Now you are finally making some progress!

Or maybe its your 30 years of exploration turning up zilch. Perhaps, the word "jaded" fits the issue.
Jaded is your emotional assessment. I suppose someone who researches Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and comes up empty-handed is just a bitter, old skeptic - or maybe it's just all make-believe.

Irritation dropped to 0.... This continue for days until.. I lost my temper.
Classic bipolar?

Answer these questions if you please before your comments:

Have other people ever been completely wrong about something that they were certain of?

Have you ever had one single feeling about something that turned out not to be so?








--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Calen]
    #1048144 - 11/13/02 01:27 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Be great if all that I had observed through the years can be *really* objectified. That's wishful thinking.

What is so terribly hard to understand? If a person says they have some extraordinary talent and I ask them to display it, that is wishful thinking?

If I claim to be a concert pianist and when you say, "Hey, play something for me." I should respond:

A. I don't need to prove anything to you.

B. Do you really need me to enjoy music?

C. I could, but I am not up to it right now.

D. I would, but you wouldn't appreciate it.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1048170 - 11/13/02 01:39 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

that 100 years ago, in SOME country SOMEWHERE EVERY living person was using opium and heroin?

Yep pretty much - maybe not "every living person" but not far off. Babies were given it to sleep, workers used it to relax from the living hell of their working conditions, soldiers used it, the upper classes used it to relax. It was available over the counter and was used far more regularly than aspirin in the US, UK and pretty much every country on earth. Read up on the history of opium and heroin.

i don't know that i would call taking any drug to alleviate unpleasant mental/physiological symptoms of their slavery to that drug as taking it by choice.....

This can of course be applied to every aspect of life. Stopping work results in withdrawal symptoms - you don't have any money. Stopping seeing your wife and your children result in withdrawal symptoms. I think you'll find the withdrawal effects of opiates have been exaggerated, they are unpleasant but certainly not as unpleasant as never seeing your children again. If the drug is available and you find life more enjoyable using it then why withdraw anyway? It causes no dangerous physical side effects, as long as you are getting a pure source, you can live until you are 100 injecting heroin every day. If you can get a prescribed source it is no different to a diabetic injecting insulin every day. Don't confuse the dangers of prohibition with the dangers of the drug. Once again, are you a slave to your children? A "slave" to your wife? Then why are you a "slave" to a drug?

on a daily basis, maybe even several times a day, by IV, i would say(imo) that the person described above, is a Slave to their habit.....

Once again, IV seems to push an emotional button in you. (Incidentally Ketamine is used IM NOT IV) The simple fact is Ketamine is best administered by intra-muscular injection.

I'm struggling with your logic. If Lilly takes LSD regularly he isn't an addict, but if he takes Ketamine regularly he is? This sounds like war on drugs logic.

Alex, i will only say this one last time.....listening? I never said he WAS a self admitted addict!

Well that's kinda what the argument has been about for the last 6 pages. I said Swami was wrong to call Lilly a "self-confessed ketamine junkie" you jumped in and defended him and insisted I was wrong. If Lilly says he wasn't a junkie then according to you this must mean he WAS a junkie because he must be in "denial". It sounds like the old "If you say you are a witch you must drown and if you say you arn't you drown anyway". If you arn't arguing this then what is your point?

to compare IV'ing Ketamine for an extended period of time to someone seeing their children everyday is ludicrous

Only to someone raised with the war on drugs propaganda. Lilly used LSD to map areas of the brain, he did the same with Ketamine. Out of his experiences he wrote two books that are still in print 25 years later. Apart from his LSD and Ketamine use he never moved onto other drugs and he lived into his eighties. That doesn't sound much like a junkie to me.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Calen]
    #1048566 - 11/13/02 04:42 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

If fuzzy logic is applied to beliefs rather than simple Yes/No logic surely this whole issue would be resolved?

When discussing most of the topics that get covered on these boards I dont think anyone can have any degree of certitude at either end of the spectrum..

Calen mentions chalking up his experiences to delusion etc but is obviuosly being flippant. However Calen, are you 100% positive that this isnt the case?

Swami, Doi you honestly believe that just because something cannot be demonstrated to you it is 100% false?

I do think we should be striving to bring these experiences in to the consensual arena and I believe at around 75% that this will happen as a by product of increased connectivity between the human race and evolution itself. I have had a few experiences myself which are hard to write off as coincidence/delusion etc but I am not convinced that this is not the case.





--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1048594 - 11/13/02 04:59 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

imo, that was your best response yet, Alex....you seemed more aloof and detatched and what I pervieved to be hosility as exhibited in some of your other posts(not JUST in this thread) seemed to be under control.........having said THAT.....

Read up on the history of opium and heroin.

No need to, you have given me a brief synopsis and i'm willing to take you at your word. Even if what you said WASN"T true, it makes no difference to my life experience in the present moment......

This can of course be applied to every aspect of life. Stopping work results in withdrawal symptoms - you don't have any money. Stopping seeing your wife and your children result in withdrawal symptoms

Can it now? This  Is  an interesting statement Alex. Perhaps if the person in question had enough forsight to see a day when he either:A was summarily dissmised from his chosen line of endeavour or..........................:B  He simply got tired of dealing with all the BS associated with it*, that person would not have to undego any sort of negative "withdrawl symptoms"  normally  associated with job termination.as he would have saved some money up for such a time...in fact THAT person might even feel  Liberated

as far as your run down on withdrawing from opiates, again i shall take you at your word......

Stopping seeing your wife and your children result in withdrawal symptoms.

Really Alex? i don't know that, never having been in that posiition. What if the person genuinely needed to get away from them, what you describe as painful(to WHATEVER degree) might in fact feel/seem like  Liberation  to THAT person.....

If the drug is available and you find life more enjoyable using it then why withdraw anyway?

Whatever floats your boat.....

Incidentally Ketamine is used IM NOT IV) The simple fact is Ketamine is best administered by intra-muscular injection

Okay

I'm struggling with your logic. If Lilly takes LSD regularly he isn't an addict, but if he takes Ketamine regularly he is?

Where did i say(imo) that he wasn't an DSL addict?

I said Swami was wrong to call Lilly a "self-confessed ketamine junkie" you jumped in and defended him and insisted I was wrong

i think most of the people here on this message board can take care of themselves without any assistance from me.........where did i "insist" you were wrong?

It sounds like the old "If you say you are a witch you must drown and if you say you arn't you drown anyway".

That's an excellent analogy Alex, except in THIS particular instance i don't think it holds a whole lot of water  :grin:

to compare IV'ing Ketamine for an extended period of time to someone seeing their children everyday is ludicrous

I'll stand by that statement....

Only to someone raised with the war on drugs propaganda.

i may have been "raised" with that but i would hardly describe myself as poster boy for the DEA  :cool:


Edit:* i admit it, for personal reasons i just HAD to put that line in Kaps :grin:













 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



Edited by FreakQlibrium (11/13/02 07:39 AM)


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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