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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Evolving]
    #1032898 - 11/07/02 04:24 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

An appearance of what appears and feels to be an outside entity, at least from the perspective of the one perceiving it.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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OfflineTheHobbit
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Swami]
    #1032925 - 11/07/02 04:31 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I think people would simply be inclined to gravitate towards either A or B dependent upon which was more popular within their general social context, such as being in the company primarily of Catholics, for example, and so being inclined to conform to the common ideal.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Adamist]
    #1033022 - 11/07/02 04:54 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

If I had no reason to think that I was hallucinating (or being tricked by another) I would trust my perceptions. But what would lead me to believe that said entity was an extra terrestrial? (BTW, I do think that there is a possiblity of extra terrestrial life.)


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Evolving]
    #1033056 - 11/07/02 05:02 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

But what would lead me to believe that said entity was an extra terrestrial?

The message they communicate could be one... But in order to understand this message, it must be interpreted by the individual, and individual interpretations are always at least slightly different. Thus the message is easily distorted... Maybe if aliens do and have been communicating with the human race, people in the past have interpreted them as being the spirit of God, demons, angels, fairies, gnomes... (any ancient myth could be a possibility, because most myths have an origin of truth, no matter how slight.)


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Invisibledeep_umbra
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Swami]
    #1033389 - 11/07/02 07:34 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

(just repeating a question incase it was missed the first time)

Swami:

if something physically showed you life-after-death, would you put all of your 'faith' into it? if so, why?



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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Swami]
    #1034474 - 11/08/02 01:39 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

What is a better method in your opinion?

In my opinion Swami, there probably IS no better method than empirisicm for arriving at the nearest approximation of truth/reality. That is as far as seeing the physical world through the senses in the normal subjec/object modality(ego. separatness).....

I want to say that is only one mode of conciousness however, and it's also the one that the majority of the beings/people on this planet seem to share so by that consensual factor alone it tends to get mass approval.....

And then again the masses seeing/experiencing what they "believe" to be true, simply goes to reinforce their illusion(IMHO) that what they "see" and agree upon is
in fact an external objectifiable external reality.....

In order for one to KNOW reality, the pure power of apperception, the bare "ability" to be aware(being here defines as pure conciousness without an object) that resides in all of us has to be awakened(IMHO)

Having seen and experienced the physical universe through the eyes of creation, even when one "comes back" to normal ego conciousness, one is aware of how inferior the status is relative to the Divine presence....

That it is possible to achieve this truth, this "knowledge through identity" with Divine/Love/Wisdom has been testified by many, although giving objective "proof" would appear to be impossible as it occurs on a level/realm/domain far beyond the 5 physical organs of sensory perception to percieve(if that's being too redundant lol)......

You've obvioulsy gone to great lengths from what i've read to substantiate for yourself some(if not most) of the claims made by "supposedly" evolved beings...
Why the universe, or God chooses to(seemingly) "favour" one individual over another in granting what i can only describe as a "Divine Presence" is beyond me...

You're an excellent spokesperson supporting your positon, you probably never will be convinced that a  higher conciousness exists...but in closing Swami, i respectively assert that your essential position or mode of conciousness throiugh which you arrive at your conclusions is false......

.....even though on the level of your current mode(egoistic subject/object conciousness*) of percieving things it is absolutely impossible to refute the veracity of your position....hence(i suspect) the inability of anyone over the past 3(?) years to "prove" you wrong.....

i realize the absurdity of what i just said when seen from the position of subject/object conciousness, i mean if i'm challenging that very mode itself, then why can't i supply clear demonstrable proof?

All i can compare it to(and pls don't take this as a "well I been there, you ain't" type comment, in the hinterland of your conciousness you are already there, as are all of us) is that once one has seen colour(canadian spelling) Tv and returns to the (relative) black and whitness of ordinary ego conciousness..... that person KNOWS of the superior nature of the colour mode of perception as compared to black and white....

How does one convey with any certitude the superiority of colour(unless you like old cheesy horror flicks like i do, but i digress  :grin:)........to the majority of the species...... imop it can't be done, at least no one (of which i know) has been capable of doing it**


The strange thing is, that when you "break through" or your 3rd eye opens, and that Divinity that IS your own nature stripped of illusions and false predications as to the nature of reality, that somehow you've known it to be true all along........It's as if a 6th inner dormant psychical organ opens up.......

It's as if the single point of conciousness that you've identified with AS Swami is suddenly annihilated and you no long occupy just one singular point in the space/time continnum but spread out in all directions at once, past, present(in the normal sense) and future no longer have any meaning, it's always NOW :smile:

* It is also where i am right now and yes it does appear to be real, although ultimately i know it's not through my own direct experience with the Divinity....i will even go so far as to say that the experience was entirely subjective when seen from my present state

.......however when one is actually "there" it "seems" to posses a reality value far GR8er than anything i have ever personally pervieved/experienced through my senses....

** Swami, i would be more than intersted in your opinion and/or thoughts on a book called "pathways through to space" a personal transformation in conciousness by Franklin Merill-wollf....i'd be more than :smile: to send mine down to you if you'd care to read it.....

Edit: originally i used a double negative, almost as henious a crime as a difference which doesn't make a difference is no difference.....or words to that effect  :grin:
 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



Edited by FreakQlibrium (11/08/02 02:43 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1034889 - 11/08/02 03:53 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Having seen and experienced the physical universe through the eyes of creation, even when one "comes back" to normal ego conciousness, one is aware of how inferior the status is relative to the Divine presence....

That it is possible to achieve this truth, this "knowledge through identity" with Divine/Love/Wisdom has been testified by many, although giving objective "proof" would appear to be impossible
Proof may be impossible, but someone having touched the divine should be somehow altered or changed. There should be indicators. I don't see that in meditators, mushroom users, churchgoers, shamanic societies, etc.

Why the universe, or God chooses to(seemingly) "favour" one individual over another in granting what i can only describe as a "Divine Presence" is beyond me...
I would guess that that person only feels that they have been singled out by God, whether it is Joan of Arc or David Koresh or my fomerly respected Swami Kriyananda, and in reality is self deluded.

You're an excellent spokesperson supporting your positon, you probably never will be convinced that a higher conciousness exists
If I could "touch" it I would.

...but in closing Swami, i respectively assert that your essential position or mode of conciousness throiugh which you arrive at your conclusions is false......
Sorry freq, but that statement is incredibly weak. As I have pointed out countless times, we are communicating with tools derived from this "false" mode of looking at the world.

.....even though on the level of your current mode(egoistic subject/object conciousness*) of percieving things it is absolutely impossible to refute the veracity of your position....hence(i suspect) the inability of anyone over the past 3(?) years to "prove" you wrong.....
Not to prove me wrong, but to validate ONE SINGLE PARANORMAL claim.

All i can compare it to(and pls don't take this as a "well I been there, you ain't" type comment, in the hinterland of your conciousness you are already there, as are all of us) is that once one has seen colour(canadian spelling) Tv and returns to the (relative) black and whitness of ordinary ego conciousness..... that person KNOWS of the superior nature of the colour mode of perception as compared to black and white....

The strange thing is, that when you "break through" or your 3rd eye opens, and that Divinity that IS your own nature stripped of illusions and false predications as to the nature of reality, that somehow you've known it to be true all along........It's as if a 6th inner dormant psychical organ opens up.......

Several personas here have made that claim and are just as ego-driven as those who haven't touched the divine, as are the many mystics and gurus that I have encountered.

** Swami, i would be more than intersted in your opinion and/or thoughts on a book called "pathways through to space" a personal transformation in conciousness by Franklin Merill-wollf....i'd be more than to send mine down to you if you'd care to read it.....
I will read it and critique it if it pleases you.



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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Swami]
    #1034996 - 11/08/02 04:43 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Swami, Do you believe in electrons and protons?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1035019 - 11/08/02 05:06 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Believe in as a semantic concept that works as one way of describing the subatomic world.

I am more talking about beliefs that shape your daily life and choices.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Swami]
    #1035107 - 11/08/02 06:45 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You never did tell me whether my answer was straight enough for yo :grin:u! 


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Swami]
    #1035202 - 11/08/02 07:57 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I would guess that that person only feels that they have been singled out by God, whether it is Joan of Arc or David Koresh or my fomerly respected Swami Kriyananda, and in reality is self deluded.

Again Swami, i submit that genuine self realization or awakening is not meglomaniacal in nature. i myself realized that the universe was completely whole and perfect as is and felt no need to "impress" anyone with my new found mode of conciousness*, i'm certain there have been many instances(such as the examples you have provided) where a deviant pathology manifests itself

There was also the realization or "knowing"(again i have to refer to this special kind of knowing by the Wolfian term, "knowledge through identity) that this state of conciousness/being was the thread which binds the universe while itself remaining invisable to the senses......

that statement is incredibly weak. As I have pointed out countless times , we are communicating with tools derived from this "false" mode of looking at the world.

i haven't read all of your posts and i wasn't aware of that. i think you've basically summated the difficulty in communing the veracity of the higher(imo) mode of conciousness to subject/object plane, the simple inadequacy of words as a vehicle for expressing the inneffable...

Several personas here have made that claim and are just as ego-driven as those who haven't touched the divine, as are the many mystics and gurus that I have encountered.

i'll take you at your word(for now) that many are, that's why i always refer to my persoanl egoistic self/conciousness as i as opposed the I (being defined in this case by the universal conciousness or self that resides in all of us(imo)

I will read it and critique it if it pleases you.

As stated above, i'd be happy to sent you my copy if you wish...A caution though, the into is written by John C. Lilly, but if you ignor/overlook that fact i'd be very interested in your critique

* the edit was removing the word "sanctity", in so much as i felt(imo)it implied a sense of superiority or condescension, it was a very poor choice of verbiage...









--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



Edited by FreakQlibrium (11/08/02 06:40 PM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1035367 - 11/08/02 09:28 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I think the self realisation concept is flawed. People seem to think that one experience of the divine means you are completely changed forever. In my experience this is not so. You may get a fleeting glimpse of "insert pretty metsphor here" but this does not mean your ego is transcended forever. The thing is, people attach to these beings who can articulate these experiences and then expect them to be "godlike" all the time, when they dont meet upto these ideals they are branded as frauds etc etc and their followers become disillusioned.(is this what happened with you and your guru swami?) I dont believe we can ever destroy the ego without becoming a vegtable in the process because the ego is what lets me type these words. I think really we are transmuting the ego, not destroying it. Obviously this is just linguistics and as the freak probly knows ALL of our ideas/theories are sandcastles on the beach, they look pretty but one day soon the tide will wash them away and we will need to get our bucket and spade out again.

I know thru experience that by doing certain things (Meditation, tai chi, intelligent drug use) certain results follow. On a surface level i am more calm, relaxed and have rid myself of certain neuroses that may otherwise have required years in therapy. I have also come to realise that i will slip back into old programs with alarming regularity but i know that it is getting less and less frequent. I have observed what happens if i dont practice - I slip back quicker. I also know i am operating on faith with this but for me faith is the key. Is it faith that tells you the sky is blue when really it is an absence of blue - i think it is "truly" orange.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1036342 - 11/08/02 03:10 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

A caution though, the into is written by John C. Lilly

Seems you have read too much into my past posting. I respect the man for all his research and intellectual contributions, I merely pointed out that he was a self-admitted ketamine junkie.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1036373 - 11/08/02 03:19 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

. I think really we are transmuting the ego, not destroying it.

That's a very good way of putting it, based on my own persoanal experience. If my ego had have been TOTALLY annihiliated, there would have been no direct experience of the Divinity and therefore no recollection of it at all....

The personal egoistic man was allowed to share in the experience and although i STILL had my sense of "i", i was immersed/fused in some unfathomable manner with the supreme force of the universe, transmuted from base metal into gold(it is pointless to try and qualify that statement in regular subjec/object terms, when you are there, you KNOW) :smile:

ALL of our ideas/theories are sandcastles on the beach,

And yet it is that sand(imo)that is the substance from which objective reality bricks are formed.....

 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Swami]
    #1036426 - 11/08/02 03:34 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Seems you have read too much into my past posting. I respect the man for all his research and intellectual contributions, I merely pointed out that he was a self-admitted ketamine junkie.

Thanks for clarifying that, as i seem to recall* for whatever reason there seemed to be a lot of animosity in that thread so i never really hung around long enough to gain a clearer perspective on you views/opinions re Lilly......

*edit was a typo


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



Edited by FreakQlibrium (11/08/02 04:03 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1036443 - 11/08/02 03:38 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I think the self realisation concept is flawed. People seem to think that one experience of the divine means you are completely changed forever.
If I may relate to the physical for a moment. One workout in the gym and one day of pure diet does not reshape your body, but continue doing so and all the world can witness your transformation without you saying a word.

The thing is, people attach to these beings who can articulate these experiences and then expect them to be "godlike" all the time, when they dont meet upto these ideals they are branded as frauds etc etc and their followers become disillusioned.(is this what happened with you and your guru swami?)
You are overstating somewhat here. It is not that I expect god-like behavior as much as I expect behavior consistent with that is taught.

I dont believe we can ever destroy the ego without becoming a vegtable in the process because the ego is what lets me type these words. I think really we are transmuting the ego, not destroying it.
I also believe that the ego is necessary, but must be tamed. Again, let me give an example. I love to compete and to win, but rarely let my ego get in the way. A few years back I was watching a major tennis match with an up and coming young pistol. He had the skills and conditioning needed to win. He was on the verge of upsetting the champion when a referee's call went aginst the young man. (I though the call valid.) He got angry and carried that emotion forward. As the match progressed two more calls went against him and he became enraged. Though he was still winning, I said to my buddy, "Watch, now he will throw the match!" The athlete's focus went from winning to displaying to the crowd how bruised his ego had become. He would show them the full force of his disgust with the referee. He got tromped and left a bitter young man because he had zero emotional control.

ALL of our ideas/theories are sandcastles on the beach, they look pretty but one day soon the tide will wash them away and we will need to get our bucket and spade out again.
I am going to steal this line form you some time in the future. :smile:

I know thru experience that by doing certain things (Meditation, tai chi, intelligent drug use) certain results follow. On a surface level i am more calm, relaxed and have rid myself of certain neuroses that may otherwise have required years in therapy.
That is my biggest bitch about most claiming some form of spiritual progress; they still beat their kids, are rude, cheat on their wives and taxes, etc. just like those that don't do these practices. IN GENERAL. I fail to see any difference between the guy trying to convert me to Christianity or TM and any other Joe.

How many names have I been called by people here believing that we are all one? Pettitness and ignorance abounds here on the shroomery just as it does on other message boards. If mushrooms truly opened us up to the cosmic, then as a group, there should be some significant differences.

At the Ashram where I stayed, politics, backstabbing and basic human foibles existed the same as everywhere else only cloaked behind platitudes and benign smiles. 


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibledeep_umbra
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Swami]
    #1037025 - 11/08/02 06:24 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

swami: any particular reason why you choose to ignore my question?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: deep_umbra]
    #1037538 - 11/08/02 10:48 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Because that type of "if" game has no meaning to me. Show it first, then we can discuss.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibledeep_umbra
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Swami]
    #1037603 - 11/08/02 11:24 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

you could have said that the first time i asked instead of being rude..

its a simple question, not a game..

and i dont think im going out on a limb by saying had something physically shown you life-after-death, you still wouldnt believe in it 100%


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: deep_umbra]
    #1038319 - 11/09/02 05:32 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Everything is a game... and a joke.
Though I may be the only one forever laughing.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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