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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 10 months, 2 days
Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Swami]
    #1038433 - 11/09/02 02:53 PM (20 years, 23 days ago)

hehe... swami, you just can't win.  People get upset at what you say, and people get upset at what you don't say.  :smile:


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Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineSnuffelzFurever
Psychonaut

Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 734
Loc: Miami, florida
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Swami]
    #1038445 - 11/09/02 03:15 PM (20 years, 23 days ago)

just my opinion, but i think faith from religion is just a basic reassurance. People are attracted to the religion that appeals to them the most, and that makes them the happiest. Nothing wrong with that. Some faith is in the name of learning tho. Some people take it on themselves to discover the meaning of life, and that is faith of sorts. The kinda faith that you can place higher in one thing than an another is just holding on to dear life on the closest most comfortable thing you can find


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"I think it's time we stop
Children, What's the sound,
Everybody look what's going down"


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Seuss]
    #1038452 - 11/09/02 03:26 PM (20 years, 23 days ago)

My very existence is upsetting - LOL! I am the Buddah come to push buttons to test where people are at.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibledeep_umbra
Stranger
Registered: 05/12/02
Posts: 109
Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1040458 - 11/10/02 01:55 PM (20 years, 22 days ago)


In reply to:

Everything is a game... and a joke.
Though I may be the only one forever laughing.




nah, i'll be by your side laughing.. (at you) hehe


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Swami]
    #1040502 - 11/10/02 03:13 PM (20 years, 22 days ago)

I merely pointed out that he was a self-admitted ketamine junkie.

Utter bullshit. He was no such thing.

Read the interview with Lilly in Dreams and realities. Lilly doubts addiction as a concept and says "When i wanted to take K i took it, when i didn't i stopped".

"self-admitted ketamine junkie" - where do you get this shit from?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
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Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada
Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1040510 - 11/10/02 03:26 PM (20 years, 22 days ago)

Utter bullshit. He was no such thing.

i seem to detect a GR8 deal of hostility and anger in your post(s)

Lilly doubts addiction as a concept

sounds like denial to me......just my opinion as i actually enjoyed reading Lilly's books.....

Lilly doubts addiction as a concept

revisited....try explaining that notion to a person who's just been shot of stabbed for a few dollars by a someone who's "not addicted' because addiction is only a "concept"

imo, that's like saying rape is only a concept......


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



Edited by FreakQlibrium (11/10/02 03:34 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Belief revisited... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1040516 - 11/10/02 03:38 PM (20 years, 22 days ago)

Alex thinks that merely saying "Utter Bullshit!" somehow makes it so. This is the extent of his debating capabilities. When one has no argument, anger is the only answer.

He would have us believe that MAINLINING A SUBSTANCE CONSIDERED TO PHARMACOLOGICALLY ADDICTIVE EVERY DAY FOR MONTHS is not problematic, and is a generally accepted practice of a healthy, well-adjusted individual.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1040579 - 11/10/02 05:26 PM (20 years, 22 days ago)

>Lilly doubts addiction as a concept and says "When i wanted to take K i took it, when i didn't i stopped".

As any sort of "proof" that he wasn't addicted, that statement means next to nothing. I don't buy into the concept of addiction in the way it's used a lot of the time these days, but there are some things ... One of the characteristics of "addiction," or any sort of dependance, is that it changes behaviour. The most obvious psychological way that this takes place is through reinforcement: Someone takes a drug for whatever reason--to experience something profound, for example. The user then has a profound experience because he has taken the drug, which happens to be exactly what he wanted, and knowing that the experience is "rewarding" and available, his future tendancies are altered and he is more likely to use it again. If it's a negative experience and he therefore doesn't repeat it, behaviour reinforcement has also taken place.

If the experience is percieved as really enjoyable, useful, or rewarding -as definately seems to be the case with Lilly- one is quite likely to either repeat it or experience a strong desire to repeat it. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but when one starts heavily using a drug, it usually isn't a indication of a "good" thing. 

Anyway, considering that his behaviour was unavoidably changed by the psychological effects of the Ketamine (not to mention the physiological, which I have no clue about), his aforementioned statement can only back that he liked what he was doing. If a lab-rat could talk, it would most likely tell you that it was indulging in the test drug because it liked it, even as it consumed the rat's life.
On the other hand, if it told you that it was using the drug not because it wanted to, but because it kept having seizures without it, the rat would be physically addicted, the other aspect of addiction that I do put some stock in. I'm not sure how or if physical addiction applies to Ketamine.

Sorry about all this. I really enjoy thinking about this stuff sometimes, and I get going on a topic like this; I might not even be offering anything significant to the rest of you. :grin:
On top of that, I'm probably a message board junkie. lol


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Swami]
    #1040591 - 11/10/02 05:41 PM (20 years, 22 days ago)

This is the extent of his debating capabilities. When one has no argument, anger is the only answer.

It isn't a debate. You made up "self-admitted" to make a point. It is a complete lie that exists only in your head. You are completly wrong and lying about it to boot. What is there to debate?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Belief revisited... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1040592 - 11/10/02 05:42 PM (20 years, 22 days ago)

i seem to detect a GR8 deal of hostility and anger in your post(s)

No anger. Just passion for truth.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
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Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada
Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1040605 - 11/10/02 05:53 PM (20 years, 22 days ago)

No anger. Just passion for truth.

Passion being defined as emotion in this case? i have persoanly never met anyone who could reason clearly when in any kind of emotional state.....perhaps your are an exception to this, i don't know :smirk: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Belief revisited... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1040610 - 11/10/02 05:56 PM (20 years, 22 days ago)

The truth is the truth regardless of emotion.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1040614 - 11/10/02 05:59 PM (20 years, 22 days ago)

It isn't a debate.

Hey, we finally agree; shouting and emotionalism is not debate.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1040618 - 11/10/02 06:03 PM (20 years, 22 days ago)

The truth is the truth regardless of emotion.

the "truth" in this case being what Alex..... your own set of beliefs?*

*sounded a bit harsher than i had intended, yet the question itself still stands......


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



Edited by FreakQlibrium (11/10/02 06:21 PM)


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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Registered: 08/16/02
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1041171 - 11/10/02 11:49 PM (20 years, 21 days ago)

I am of ther particular belief that there is common basis of understanding in communications like these discussions, and that is emotion.
When you feel something you "know" it.
When more than one person "know" the same thing, it can be considered a truth.
Not the truth, but one of as many truths as there are people to believe them.


Edited by dee_N_ae (11/10/02 11:53 PM)


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #1041183 - 11/10/02 11:55 PM (20 years, 21 days ago)

I am of ther particular belief that there is common basis of understanding in communication and that is emotion.

Good post Dee, however the type of  EMOTION  that i was refering to specifically was the type that obfuscates(learned a new word today :wink: ) one's understanding and communicative abilities....ie: hostility, anger etc.....even if that particular emotion is cloaked under the guise of "having a passion for the truth"  :grin: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1041191 - 11/11/02 12:01 AM (20 years, 21 days ago)

Ahh, I see. Good point  :grin:   


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Belief revisited... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1042166 - 11/11/02 08:50 AM (20 years, 21 days ago)

the "truth" in this case being what Alex..... your own set of beliefs?*

No, the truth being John Lilly isn't a "self-admitted ketamine junkie". He has never said any such thing. Swami got excitable as usual and lied to try and make a point.

If Swami can provide any evidence that Lilly was a "self-admitted ketamine junkie" it would be a debate. Until then it is simply Swami lying and me telling the truth.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Belief revisited... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1042570 - 11/11/02 01:07 PM (20 years, 21 days ago)

No, the truth being John Lilly isn't a "self-admitted ketamine junkie".

Okay Alex, fair enough and thanks for responding :smile: However, from my own perspective the real issue would see to be that, self admitted or not, Lilly seems to have been at some point....a ketamine junkie. If what you have posted re his comments is true concerning him denying the concept of addiction....in my mind that would constitute classic denial and would tend to reinorce(imo) the  fact  that he was addicted to ketamine for a protracted period...

let me reiterate here in case you think i'm attacking the guy. i'm not, i thoroughly enjoyed his zany exploits in the sensory deprivation tank as well as his work with dolphins...... :grin: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 3 years, 3 days
Re: Belief revisited... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1042589 - 11/11/02 01:51 PM (20 years, 21 days ago)

In reply to:

And yet it is that sand(imo)that is the substance from which objective reality bricks are formed.....





Do you mean objective reality is made of our theories of it??


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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